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You do have it? I think it is cool that they did this. The chart is fiction, I do believe. But they used the foundation off of the creator of Edgar/Mash/Matthew/Sabin.

Ah, I had to translated parts that I never found


EDIT:

Hey, that hold none of the information I was talking about
That's a fanfiction

This post has been edited by MagitekElite on 27th January 2010 04:38

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A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

It's written as fanfiction, but it's just repeating real information in semi-story form.

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"The Lord Bob Bree is my shepherd,
I shall not want;
He makes me post in Scenario topics.
He leads me beside GameFOX;
He restores my karma.
He leads me in paths of moderation
for His name's sake."
-Nick of Five

Oh. I meant if you guys had the information in its real form.

Would you like what I and others (before me) have translated? I tried to put it English, so it wasn't formed badly.

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A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

Quote (MagitekElite @ 26th January 2010 21:09)

@Shiva Indis:
Me too, I wish I had the Complete, Adventure Guide book and the character profiles

Did anyone hear about the Figaro background? That I know, is actually true. It was made before the game and the person who designed Edgar and Sabin (Mash to some) help create it. It's actually canon 

There's a chart that goes with it and explains why Edgar appears to come off creepy to Relm.

That spiral-bound artbook-like one with the cards? Another one I never picked up, though not for lack of interest. And as for the Marriage of Figaro doujin... well, I've been known to post about it. I wouldn't go so far as to call it cannon, since the author requests that we don't.

Quote (MagitekElite @ 26th January 2010 21:09)

What about this? Has anyone heard of this?

ファイナルファンタジー6 アドバンス 公式コンプリートガイド (単行本（ソフトカバー）) 

That's the GBA version guidebook, nice cover art but I can't say I have high expectations of the contents. Customer reviews say 'perfect if you're not looking for anything beyond a walkthrough".

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"Cavefish is delicious, but only if cooked."

Well, it's canon (I know she said not to) because she made the characters and background to them, so asking not to consider it canon is like asking fans of VII to think CC isn't canon when we all know the fans do think its canon

(I didn't mean to come off rude there...just saying. )

I love the GBA guidebook! It's so cool! But then again, I might just be saying that 'cause I'm a huge fan. But I'm not known to be a biased person lol

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A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

@Shiva: You probably aren't missing anything too important from The Complete. As far as I can tell, the book with Terra in the cover is the one with the most tasty info. But if you are interested in something in particular I'll be glad to take some photos for you.

@MagitekElite: Are you saying you want the original material in Japanese?, sorry I didn't understand what you meant by “real form”.

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"Love, and do what you will" Saint Augustine

Oh, sorry >.<

I meant, something in a different form other than fanfiction.

(You have scans? If you do...could you possibly post them here? )

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A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

@MagitekElite: I can't promise you scans, but I can take photos. Tell you what, it's time to sleep around here, so tell me what part you are interested in and I'll get to it tomorrow. But before I forget...

To the mods: I was thinking, is it ok for me to post a couple of more photos?, I mean it is not the whole book and they are not for sale outside Japan. But if it is a problem, I'll abstain, I'm just not sure of your policy about it.

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"Love, and do what you will" Saint Augustine

I'm okay with that, Sandy, but if they're going to be photos that are not necessarily to do with Kefka, I'd start a new thread.



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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Quote (Sandyboots @ 28th January 2010 04:35)

@MagitekElite: I can't promise you scans, but I can take photos. Tell you what, it's time to sleep around here, so tell me what part you are interested in and I'll get to it tomorrow. But before I forget...

To the mods: I was thinking, is it ok for me to post a couple of more photos?, I mean it is not the whole book and they are not for sale outside Japan. But if it is a problem, I'll abstain, I'm just not sure of your policy about it.

I would...would like to see it all. I love FFVI so much.


If it's not much of a problem, I mean. But if I have to pick, stuff related to Terra and Edgar?

(and maybe Kefka?)

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A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

Great!, Thanks Rangers.

Pstt MagitekElite, we are moving to another topic, I'm recycling this.

And for this post not to be a total waste: Here's Kefka info from The Complete. And look here, someone was kind enough to translate it.

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"Love, and do what you will" Saint Augustine

So, I felt like I should register and comment cause I've been playing ff6 again (and loving it! Just got the airship).

There is in fact a line from an NPC in vector, in the cafe which is up the stairs, you have to avoid some guards to get to it. He says something to the effect that Kefka was the first trial of infusion of magic and that after that day, something snapped in his brain.

Craziness is his animating force, not necessarily evil. I'm sure he had many of these traits prior to his great "snapping," but that's the thing about people - they aren't inherently evil (which is a completely different topic of debate). People are dynamic, but in many ways start out with a clean slate, and ideally get to chose who they will become independently of other variables.

What this allows for as humans is a great deal of searching, finding, losing, and redemption - the great human plight. Squaresoft repeatedly plays on these ideas with many of their character's and villains, and I'm not sure Kefka is much different. Many of square's villains become godlike angelic figures as their final forms, implying religious implications but also a final fall.

I'm not sure he's completely insane, as most of his decisions are calculated. Poisoning doma for instance, ousting general leo, implying celes' betrayal of the returners (in the magitech factory). This takes craft and careful thought and planning. He's manipulative and deceitful.

What I think happened with the infusion, is it likely separated him from his emotional core, in addition giving him a taste of power. The combination produced a real sociopath. So the human qualities of Kefka that kept these less than savory desires in check likely disappeared.He has no need for emotional connectedness or life meaning of any kind, which is why I have the feeling that in many ways, he wouldn't have many issues with complete isolation after the destruction of everything.

As was mentioned, he is all about putting on some kind of show. His "costume," which IS a costume even in the FF6 universe and one of his final lines. The world is a stage to him, it's ultimately meaningless. It's a stage that he can control and manipulate as he sees fit, because without any emotional ties, to him, humanity doesn't exist, in humanity's place are puppets.

So um... yea that's my take

I still think he wsa already a psychopath and that the power from the infusion made it worse.

The power he gained could have bloated his ego wich maybe he was too weak and pathetic to act but with the infusion it may have made him crazy enough to act even if he was weak.


He was persistant and also delusional.

Another thing about him is that sure he was probably already a psychopath with inherent traits but you also develope other traits and its not just 1 thing.

There is more to just good and evil.

Kefka was selfish a narcissist and he probably begged to get a magitek infusion.


This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 16th February 2010 19:35

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 16th February 2010 14:26)

Kefka was selfish a narcissist and he probably begged to get a magitek infusion.

Although that might be true, it's entierly speculative.

Don't forget Celes, too, went through the process -- and liked the results. Hence her line to Terra when going up to Narshe.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Something along the lines of: Isn't this gift wonderful?

The only real thing we know about Kefka is that, after the infusion, he snapped. Nothing else is really known. He was probably tainted with the desire for more power, hence his irrational and deadly obsession with Magicite and Espers. Kefka has been driven mad - he's insane - there's no other way of putting it. I don't think being insane necessarily makes you evil.

Hell, the characters even try reasoning with him at the very end... to which he gives everyone extraordinarily strange comments. He's not narcissitic because he seeks no approval in others. I don't even think you can call him egocentric. He's cock, though, that's for sure.

I really can't say the man is evil. I think he's doing bad things - that's for sure. But he's a product of the empire, which makes him such a beautiful villain. He's the only villain that rises in power alongside your characters, and the only villain who isn't necessarily evil. Insane people cannot be held to the same moral standards as the sane. Hence why people go to mental institutions rather than jail if they're deemed clinically insane.

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"A little tight, but the price was right" - Locke
"Oh, what a Fuddy Duddy" - Relm
"..." - Shadow
"I'm a General, not some love starved twit" - Celes
"Although Edgar showers his attention on the ladies, most are smart enough to pay him no attention. Oh! King Edgar!" - Figaro Castle Inn Attendant

Quote (Locke_Cole @ 16th February 2010 18:08)

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 16th February 2010 14:26)

Kefka was selfish a narcissist and he probably begged to get a magitek infusion.

Although that might be true, it's entierly speculative.

That isn't speculative. Those are all personality traits that Kefka exhibits. It's speculative that he begged for the infusion, but not that he would've wanted it.

Quote

The only real thing we know about Kefka is that, after the infusion, he snapped.

We don't necessarily know that either. He could've been just as crazy before the infusion, and the newfound power just brought it out.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 16th February 2010 20:40)

Quote (Locke_Cole @ 16th February 2010 18:08)

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 16th February 2010 14:26)

Kefka was selfish a narcissist and he probably begged to get a magitek infusion.

Although that might be true, it's entierly speculative.

That isn't speculative. Those are all personality traits that Kefka exhibits. It's speculative that he begged for the infusion, but not that he would've wanted it.

Sorry, I was referring to the latter part of the sentence. I forgot to specify :\

I have no doubt that he wanted the infusion, though. It fits his personality nicely. As for the narcissitic part, I can argue against that. The selfish aspect? I don't think he was selfish as much as power-hungry, and that'd only help the argument about him begging for the infusion more. But as a General, I doubt he had to do much begging.

Quote

Quote

The only real thing we know about Kefka is that, after the infusion, he snapped.

We don't necessarily know that either. He could've been just as crazy before the infusion, and the newfound power just brought it out.

I have a hard time with that. If a lowly guard realized he snapped after the infusion, and to question his superior like that, I think it would have had to been noticeable at a very distinct level.

One aspect of the infusion that I'd like to bring to light is that it was one of the first, and a proto-type almost, of Cid's work. I'm going to make the argument that Kefka at least wanted the infusion, knowing the potential of its power, based on his personality and the fact that a high ranking general of the army went and did an experiment that might end his life or prove harmful otherwise.

An argument could also be made for the infusion manipulating Kefka's personality by saying the infusion process at the time was unsafe, and messed with him.

My question is: Did the magitek infusion make him insane due to a flaw in the infusion system, or did the magitek infusion make him insane because of the power it granted him? Or both?

This makes me want to write a Kefka-fanfic.

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"A little tight, but the price was right" - Locke
"Oh, what a Fuddy Duddy" - Relm
"..." - Shadow
"I'm a General, not some love starved twit" - Celes
"Although Edgar showers his attention on the ladies, most are smart enough to pay him no attention. Oh! King Edgar!" - Figaro Castle Inn Attendant

I think ultimately, regardless of weather or not Kefka is inately evil (which honestly I find to be more of a cop-out than an infusion going wrong) or weather it was the infusion's work of insanity... I think what makes him such a memorable and amazing villain is what he represents more than who he was.

The theme of final fantasy six, as far as I can tell, is this great human searching for identity and meaning and most importantly redemption. Pretty much each of the characters without fail have lost something valuable to them, that made up who they were. The entire game they spend trying to find this missing puzzle piece to their humanity, and the end of the entire game most of them find that missing piece, and the connection is... they find it in other people. Except of course Shadow, but even he finds meaning and connectedness at the end. He finds redemption through death. This is despite the terrible things a lot of the characters have done (such as terra and celes while in the empire, and lock for abandoning rachel, and shadow for... lots of things... not that all of these things were innately bad, but things the character's had to atone for none the less).

So Kefka then, is the antithesis of this. He's the anti-human. From his perspective, as I mentioned, humanity doesn't exist beyond puppetry. He isn't "missing" anything, and isn't searching for anything other than a final show. His goal is destruction, not connectedness.

I think what makes Kefka truly great is that these themes resonate in us with him. He's humanity un-checked, he's what each of the characters could of been (because most of them willfully did a lot of terrible things in their lives) but what they rose above. He's ambiguous but still resonates more deeply than any other ff villain (for me anyway). This means we connect with him in some way, and I think it's more due to who he represents than any kind of back story or reason for why he is the way he is.

This post has been edited by bustthewave on 17th February 2010 04:56

Quote (bustthewave @ 16th February 2010 23:48)

I think ultimately, regardless of weather or not Kefka is inately evil (which honestly I find to be more of a cop-out than an infusion going wrong) or weather it was the infusion's work of insanity... I think what makes him such a memorable and amazing villain is what he represents more than who he was.

The theme of final fantasy six, as far as I can tell, is this great human searching for identity and meaning and most importantly redemption. Pretty much each of the characters without fail have lost something valuable to them, that made up who they were. The entire game they spend trying to find this missing puzzle piece to their humanity, and the end of the entire game most of them find that missing piece, and the connection is... they find it in other people. Except of course Shadow, but even he finds meaning and connectedness at the end. He finds redemption through death. This is despite the terrible things a lot of the characters have done (such as terra and celes while in the empire, and lock for abandoning rachel, and shadow for... lots of things... not that all of these things were innately bad, but things the character's had to atone for none the less).

So Kefka then, is the antithesis of this. He's the anti-human. From his perspective, as I mentioned, humanity doesn't exist beyond puppetry. He isn't "missing" anything, and isn't searching for anything other than a final show. His goal is destruction, not connectedness.

I think what makes Kefka truly great is that these themes resonate in us with him. He's humanity un-checked, he's what each of the characters could of been (because most of them willfully did a lot of terrible things in their lives) but what they rose above. He's ambiguous but still resonates more deeply than any other ff villain (for me anyway). This means we connect with him in some way, and I think it's more due to who he represents than any kind of back story or reason for why he is the way he is.

Well said. I wish there was a "like" feature for posts like there is on facebook, this would certainly deserve one

Moderator Edit

I'd be happy to put a share button on forum posts! -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 17th February 2010 13:09

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"A little tight, but the price was right" - Locke
"Oh, what a Fuddy Duddy" - Relm
"..." - Shadow
"I'm a General, not some love starved twit" - Celes
"Although Edgar showers his attention on the ladies, most are smart enough to pay him no attention. Oh! King Edgar!" - Figaro Castle Inn Attendant

Well, since we don't know exactly what he was like pre-infusion, anything we say is guesswork. But all I know is that...

Quote

So Kefka then, is the antithesis of this. He's the anti-human. From his perspective, as I mentioned, humanity doesn't exist beyond puppetry. He isn't "missing" anything, and isn't searching for anything other than a final show.

... this is true, but I'm not sure that his goal was purely destruction. His goal was to play a game, put on a performance. That's why he waited for the Returners. He really is a great foil to the Returners, the heroes which show many emotions throughout the game, because he has no regard for human life or suffering, he is playing a game.

But nevertheless, I don't think my argument is a cop-out, it is rather about the question of what makes Kefka--and for that matter, any insane human--the way they are? Someone who disregards human emotions and treats the events that occur like it's some fake performance, someone who embraces chaos? It's not really a question about Kefka, but ourselves. Is what turns someone into something, like, for instance, Hitler, deep within ourselves, or is it caused by outward events and mere chance?

In other words, I'm asking, which came first? Was it the botched experiment that turned him into a madman, or was it something inert within him, within his psyche, that was incited by the infusion?

And that is what leads me to believe that he himself volunteered, or perhaps begged to get the infusion, before it was perfected. Think about this, why was Kefka the only one willing to volunteer for this? Could it be, that, something within him, compelled him to?

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Praise Be To Helix!

You actually quoted the part of my post that completed agreed with you about the performance aspect . He absolutely was putting on a show, a show that involved destruction because destruction was the show. He wanted an audience however.

And in all honesty we really are saying the same thing in a lot of basic ways. If the themes of ff6 are sin, redemption, and connectedness, and if Kefka is the antithesis of this, I.E. being hummanity un-checked, than what the principle behind the theme is that humans are full of potential for good and evil and everything in between. So what I'm saying is that Kefka absolutely had inate qualities of ego-mania and selfish ambition, but likely to no greater extent than the heroes.

All we know for sure about Kefka is that he had an infusion that made him snap. The NPC that tells us this, told us this to give us just a little tiny window into why Kefka is the way he is, there isn't any reason to doubt that this statement is accurate to the fullest extent.

Everything else is speculation, including him volunteering. But regardless of if he volunteered or not and for what reason, the point is the infusion made him the villain that he was, which he wouldn't of been without the infusion. That much we know.

But even beyond that, it doesn't matter why he is the way he is, he was the way he was because he so perfectly contrasted the heroes, and that's what gives his villainous meaning.

So did he have innate ego-maniacle tendencies? Sure. Was he innately evil? Doubt it.

Did he "snap" with the infusion? Yes.

Quote (Locke_Cole @ 17th February 2010 05:01)

Quote (bustthewave @ 16th February 2010 23:48)

I think ultimately, regardless of weather or not Kefka is inately evil (which honestly I find to be more of a cop-out than an infusion going wrong) or weather it was the infusion's work of insanity... I think what makes him such a memorable and amazing villain is what he represents more than who he was.

The theme of final fantasy six, as far as I can tell, is this great human searching for identity and meaning and most importantly redemption. Pretty much each of the characters without fail have lost something valuable to them, that made up who they were. The entire game they spend trying to find this missing puzzle piece to their humanity, and the end of the entire game most of them find that missing piece, and the connection is... they find it in other people. Except of course Shadow, but even he finds meaning and connectedness at the end. He finds redemption through death. This is despite the terrible things a lot of the characters have done (such as terra and celes while in the empire, and lock for abandoning rachel, and shadow for... lots of things... not that all of these things were innately bad, but things the character's had to atone for none the less).

So Kefka then, is the antithesis of this. He's the anti-human. From his perspective, as I mentioned, humanity doesn't exist beyond puppetry. He isn't "missing" anything, and isn't searching for anything other than a final show. His goal is destruction, not connectedness.

I think what makes Kefka truly great is that these themes resonate in us with him. He's humanity un-checked, he's what each of the characters could of been (because most of them willfully did a lot of terrible things in their lives) but what they rose above. He's ambiguous but still resonates more deeply than any other ff villain (for me anyway). This means we connect with him in some way, and I think it's more due to who he represents than any kind of back story or reason for why he is the way he is.

Well said. I wish there was a "like" feature for posts like there is on facebook, this would certainly deserve one

Moderator Edit

I'd be happy to put a share button on forum posts! -R51

Thanks lock by the way

oh, and to blitze - I hope I'm not coming off as dismissive of what you're saying, because I think you are dead on the mark in brilliant ways, the performance aspect of Kefka specifically. That's what I latched onto because it made perfect sense with the post previous to my last post.

The real debate here I think (if I'm not putting words into your mouth), is that was Kefka innately evil or wasn't he?


Is your stance essentially that Kefka was the same regardless of the infusion, so the actions we see him do he would have done largely with or without the infusion (such as poisoning Doma)?

Quote (bustthewave @ 17th February 2010 16:49)

The real debate here I think (if I'm not putting words into your mouth), is that was Kefka innately evil or wasn't he?

That is the argument. I remember reading about a philosophical argument about the same thing, and whether a person has evil within him or if it is caused by external events.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 17th February 2010 17:07)

Quote (bustthewave @ 17th February 2010 16:49)

The real debate here I think (if I'm not putting words into your mouth), is that was Kefka innately evil or wasn't he?

That is the argument. I remember reading about a philosophical argument about the same thing, and whether a person has evil within him or if it is caused by external events.

That argument is usually referred to as "nature vs. nurture," and there are several schools of philosophical and psychological thought that take varying positions on the nature/nurture spectrum. Radical behaviorists like B.F. Skinner are 100% nurture, or environmental influence, while people that are 100% nature are... basically just hardcore ethologists and weirdo eugenicists. Just about everyone nowadays believes that the answer is somewhere in the middle.

But yes, back to Kefka. We know that he underwent Magitek testing and received some kind of infusion as a child, just like Celes. We also know that Kefka is a psychopath and Celes is not a psychopath. So, if they underwent the same testing procedure, then Kefka must have had his psychosis either innately, or through some environmental stimulus that Celes did not experience.

So, I believe that there are three legitimate positions here:

1. Some kind of mistake occurred during Kefka's Magitek transfusion that left him traumatized, eventually turning him into the insane clown we know today. Instead of a mistake, it alternatively could have been an early form of infusion that was much safer by the time Celes underwent Magitek testing.

2. Kefka is just innately evil and his magic powers just furthered his elitism and power mania. Basically, he was already a psycho and giving him magic powers didn't help.

3. Kefka was not born evil (like option 1), but some kind of family- or other stress-related trauma outside of Magitek made him into a psychopath (unlike option 1 or 2), and his magic powers didn't help (like option 2).

Personally, I'm going with option 1. It's overwhelmingly true that serial killers and other examples of evil people have some kind of past trauma that brings about their antisocial personality disorders. Because Kefka is older than Celes, it's reasonable to assume that Magitek had been refined and improved in between Kefka's and Celes's infusions. When Kefka received magic powers, Magitek was at a stage where it was dangerous and traumatic, and the experiments left Kefka completely nanners. Eventually, he betrays Gestahl and the mad clown is given powers beyond anything else in the world. Not a happy situation.

This post has been edited by laszlow on 17th February 2010 22:34

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this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

Quote (laszlow @ 17th February 2010 22:33)

Quote (BlitzSage @ 17th February 2010 17:07)

Quote (bustthewave @ 17th February 2010 16:49)

The real debate here I think (if I'm not putting words into your mouth), is that was Kefka innately evil or wasn't he?

That is the argument. I remember reading about a philosophical argument about the same thing, and whether a person has evil within him or if it is caused by external events.

That argument is usually referred to as "nature vs. nurture," and there are several schools of philosophical and psychological thought that take varying positions on the nature/nurture spectrum. Radical behaviorists like B.F. Skinner are 100% nurture, or environmental influence, while people that are 100% nature are... basically just hardcore ethologists and weirdo eugenicists. Just about everyone nowadays believes that the answer is somewhere in the middle.

But yes, back to Kefka. We know that he underwent Magitek testing and received some kind of infusion as a child, just like Celes. We also know that Kefka is a psychopath and Celes is not a psychopath. So, if they underwent the same testing procedure, then Kefka must have had his psychosis either innately, or through some environmental stimulus that Celes did not experience.

So, I believe that there are three legitimate positions here:

1. Some kind of mistake occurred during Kefka's Magitek transfusion that left him traumatized, eventually turning him into the insane clown we know today. Instead of a mistake, it alternatively could have been an early form of infusion that was much safer by the time Celes underwent Magitek testing.

2. Kefka is just innately evil and his magic powers just furthered his elitism and power mania. Basically, he was already a psycho and giving him magic powers didn't help.

3. Kefka was not born evil (like option 1), but some kind of family- or other stress-related trauma outside of Magitek made him into a psychopath (unlike option 1 or 2), and his magic powers didn't help (like option 2).

Personally, I'm going with option 1. It's overwhelmingly true that serial killers and other examples of evil people have some kind of past trauma that brings about their antisocial personality disorders. Because Kefka is older than Celes, it's reasonable to assume that Magitek had been refined and improved in between Kefka's and Celes's infusions. When Kefka received magic powers, Magitek was at a stage where it was dangerous and traumatic, and the experiments left Kefka completely nanners. Eventually, he betrays Gestahl and the mad clown is given powers beyond anything else in the world. Not a happy situation.

Except we do know for a fact that kefka was the first to undergo the infusion and that it did indeed make him nanners due to a lovely NPC in Vector... which actually doesn't disprove options 2 or 3 so... I have no argument

Quote (laszlow @ 17th February 2010 18:33)

Personally, I'm going with option 1. It's overwhelmingly true that serial killers and other examples of evil people have some kind of past trauma that brings about their antisocial personality disorders. Because Kefka is older than Celes, it's reasonable to assume that Magitek had been refined and improved in between Kefka's and Celes's infusions. When Kefka received magic powers, Magitek was at a stage where it was dangerous and traumatic, and the experiments left Kefka completely nanners. Eventually, he betrays Gestahl and the mad clown is given powers beyond anything else in the world. Not a happy situation.

The argument I was speaking of occurs in Plato's Republic, and I was slightly wrong about the subject of what it was about.

It is a debate of morality. In Republic, there is a debate between Socrates and Glaucon. Glaucon argues that men are only moral out of necessity, because of fear of punishment. He tells a story about a shepherd named Gyges, who finds a magic ring. Though he's a moral man, he uses the ring to kill the king and seduce the queen. His point is that people are only moral because they are afraid, and if they are given power, the impunity will cause them to disregard morality (this fits your final statement, once he gains unlimited power of the Three Goddesses).

Socrates refutes this by claiming that Glaucon has not taken into account certain humans emotions, such as integrity and guilt, that could cause a human not to use those powers in that way, and thus make them choose a moral life.

In other words, Socrates is arguing that power does not always corrupt, and external forces may at times be lesser than the internal forces. To your point about trauma causing people to turn into serial killers. Wouldn't you say that many people who undergo some type of trauma do not become serial killers?

You all have proved that the infusion traumatized him, that is not debatable. My argument is that, while this external event traumatized him, that perhaps some aspect of his being, internal within his psyche, was triggered by this traumatic event, meaning that someone else might not have been affected the way he was, and meaning that, to some degree, he was initially immoral.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 18th February 2010 00:47)

Quote (laszlow @ 17th February 2010 18:33)

Personally, I'm going with option 1.  It's overwhelmingly true that serial killers and other examples of evil people have some kind of past trauma that brings about their antisocial personality disorders.  Because Kefka is older than Celes, it's reasonable to assume that Magitek had been refined and improved in between Kefka's and Celes's infusions.  When Kefka received magic powers, Magitek was at a stage where it was dangerous and traumatic, and the experiments left Kefka completely nanners.  Eventually, he betrays Gestahl and the mad clown is given powers beyond anything else in the world.  Not a happy situation.

The argument I was speaking of occurs in Plato's Republic, and I was slightly wrong about the subject of what it was about.

It is a debate of morality. In Republic, there is a debate between Socrates and Glaucon. Glaucon argues that men are only moral out of necessity, because of fear of punishment. He tells a story about a shepherd named Gyges, who finds a magic ring. Though he's a moral man, he uses the ring to kill the king and seduce the queen. His point is that people are only moral because they are afraid, and if they are given power, the impunity will cause them to disregard morality (this fits your final statement, once he gains unlimited power of the Three Goddesses).

Socrates refutes this by claiming that Glaucon has not taken into account certain humans emotions, such as integrity and guilt, that could cause a human not to use those powers in that way, and thus make them choose a moral life.

In other words, Socrates is arguing that power does not always corrupt, and external forces may at times be lesser than the internal forces. To your point about trauma causing people to turn into serial killers. Wouldn't you say that many people who undergo some type of trauma do not become serial killers?

You all have proved that the infusion traumatized him, that is not debatable. My argument is that, while this external event traumatized him, that perhaps some aspect of his being, internal within his psyche, was triggered by this traumatic event, meaning that someone else might not have been affected the way he was, and meaning that, to some degree, he was initially immoral.

A compelling argument, indeed.

I'm not entierly convinced that Kefka is evil, and not just insane or snapped. I believe Locke said something to the effect of "That guy's missing a few buttons", not to mention Kefka's random outbursts, really give us the impression he's insane. Don't get me wrong - I think there's plenty of arguments that he's just evil, and that's the 'flair' of his personality, but I have to play Devil's Advocate here. (...sorry if I spelled that wrong)

Obviously Kefka isn't doing fantastic things. The things he's doing warrants his death, if not requires it. He taps into the ultimate powers and becomes God-incarnate. He betrays both of his fellow generals and double crosses Gestahl. He destroys multiple towns using his Light of Judgement. He kills plenty of people. What's he's doing is wrong.

But if a child steals, despite us saying the act of stealing is wrong, we don't say the child is morally at fault. My argument is towards whether Kefka was mentally capable of making a judgement in the first place. If Kefka snapped and became mentally insane, he's not actually evil despite the acts he's comitting.

I think the truth might lie in the purpose for his acts. An insane person would have no real purpose (or at least one that made little sense), while a sane person entranced by power would certainly have an aim. Kefka's aim is certainly to gain a higher power - but after he gets it, he shoots beams at towns every now and then and generally sticks to himself? Doesn't sound very alarming in terms of a calculating power-hungry demi-god. To give some comparison, Zeromus was driven by revenge against his fellow Lunanarians. Sepiroth wanted to revive his mother and destroy the world that he felt threatened him and his mother. Exdeath wanted to suck everything into the void and gain the ultimate power. Garland wanted to knock people down. Everyone else seemed to have a purpose of destruction or control.

Kefka had the power and just sat there until the final showdown. I can't help but think the man just wanted to bathe in power. Although he seemed to take delight in destruction, he did it out of fun and enjoyment more oft than not. He never said he wanted to destroy the world because he saw it as unfit, or something that was against him. He just had a jolly good time. I can't see the purpose in that. Kefka was power-hungry - no doubt - but once he even obtained that power, he had no real purpose. My vote is that he was insane, and I can't convict an insane man of being 'evil' when he knew no better. The 'real' evil to me here was Gestahl.

Although I have no real answer to Kefka being immoral beforehand. If his immorality lead him to become insane, does that still make his acts done while he was insane still faulted to him? I can't answer that at all. There's compelling evidence for both sides - and again I was only playing the devil's advocate.

You know Square did a good job with a villain when you can have this sort of discussion about him

Edit: Eeek, I wrote a lot more than I thought...

This post has been edited by Locke_Cole on 18th February 2010 07:10

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"A little tight, but the price was right" - Locke
"Oh, what a Fuddy Duddy" - Relm
"..." - Shadow
"I'm a General, not some love starved twit" - Celes
"Although Edgar showers his attention on the ladies, most are smart enough to pay him no attention. Oh! King Edgar!" - Figaro Castle Inn Attendant

Oh, the infusion made him insane. To laszlow's point, it was the "trigger event" to him becoming insane. I'm saying that there are certain psychological aspects of his character that aided into his road to insanity, in other words, both internal and external factors creating the Psycho Clown we know today.

But I do have to disagree that he had random outbursts. I am not saying he's not insane, definitely insane, but the majority of what he does seems planned and measured. He seemed to plan what happened at Doma, Figaro Castle, and the Floating Continent in a manner that seems very calculated.

And laszlow would probably agree (though I've been wrong before) that even those people who've become serial killers, or in your words, snapped, had many different factors that caused it. And many insane people have just as much, or even more purpose than anyone else. Do you not think Hitler was insane? He had reasons, crazy reasons.

And he sat there because to him it was a game, a performance. It was fun for him to wait for the Returners.

I recently read Dracula, and when he stalks women in the story, most of those women are good women. Yet, there is something about them that draws them to Dracula, even though they are what we could consider moral people. Also, just like in Lord of the Rings, even those as powerful and great as Gandalf and Galadriel have some part of them that is tempted by the Ring.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 18th February 2010 03:14)

Oh, the infusion made him insane. To laszlow's point, it was the "trigger event" to him becoming insane. I'm saying that there are certain psychological aspects of his character that aided into his road to insanity, in other words, both internal and external factors creating the Psycho Clown we know today.

But I do have to disagree that he had random outbursts. I am not saying he's not insane, definitely insane, but the majority of what he does seems planned and measured. He seemed to plan what happened at Doma, Figaro Castle, and the Floating Continent in a manner that seems very calculated.

And laszlow would probably agree (though I've been wrong before) that even those people who've become serial killers, or in your words, snapped, had many different factors that caused it. And many insane people have just as much, or even more purpose than anyone else. Do you not think Hitler was insane? He had reasons, crazy reasons.

And he sat there because to him it was a game, a performance. It was fun for him to wait for the Returners.

I recently read Dracula, and when he stalks women in the story, most of those women are good women. Yet, there is something about them that draws them to Dracula, even though they are what we could consider moral people. Also, just like in Lord of the Rings, even those as powerful and great as Gandalf and Galadriel have some part of them that is tempted by the Ring.

The chief difference between Hitler and Kefka is that Kefka was made insane by a genetic/chemical infusion - although it's not certain whether it was the infusion itself or the power the infusion gave that drove him insane. If it was the former, I can't say that it was really his fault.

If someone gives you a hallucinogenic, saying it'll help you with a headache (or some other beneficial thing, fill in what you may), and you take it, see weird things and do something stupid - say break your friend's window. Who's really at fault? Did you really do anything wrong? Hitler snapped due to an event in his life. Kefka snapped due to having crap inserted into his body.

In terms of in-game, was Terra evil for burning down soldiers while she was under the effect of the slave crown? In a similar way, is Kefka evil for doing these atrocities while under the 'slave crown' of the magitek infusion?

As for the calculated parts, I don't see any reason insane people can't be calculated. But his acts never seemed purposeful. He wasn't trying to take over the world, he was simply out there for the sole purpose to hurt people. That's not evil, so much as twisted and insane.

I like the points you brought up from the other books, though
I never read Dracula. I have to put that on my to-read list.

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"A little tight, but the price was right" - Locke
"Oh, what a Fuddy Duddy" - Relm
"..." - Shadow
"I'm a General, not some love starved twit" - Celes
"Although Edgar showers his attention on the ladies, most are smart enough to pay him no attention. Oh! King Edgar!" - Figaro Castle Inn Attendant

Quote (Locke_Cole @ 18th February 2010 12:44)

As for the calculated parts, I don't see any reason insane people can't be calculated. But his acts never seemed purposeful. He wasn't trying to take over the world, he was simply out there for the sole purpose to hurt people. That's not evil, so much as twisted and insane.

Well, the insanity is in the lack of purpose or reason. Any sane person asks, "Why did he do what he did in Doma, or any other action he took?" The only answer is that he is crazy. But what I am saying is that those actions seemed meticulously planned out, which makes him even more horribly insane. It's like the Jack the Ripper murders. They were ghastly, and it is clear that the person who did them was out of his/her mind, yet the murders themselves seem to be done by someone who knew human anatomy and killed with surgical precision. While Kefka's action in Doma is unbelievable, in that someone would have it within them to do it, but it nevertheless was a good strategy, because it ended the conflict in Doma and served Kefka's purposes of gaining power.

He did seem to have an ultimate purpose of gaining power. Now, we don't know why, which is the part that makes him insane I guess.

You're right about Terra, but the difference is that she had no choice whether or not to wear the slave crown. Just like the person who took the drug, she was innocent in the matter. That might just be true about Kefka as well, but the only known difference is: Kefka did volunteer to undergo the infusion. He might have not known about the dangers of the procedure, but that is unlikely.

Edit

By the way, I would recommend it, and also Frankenstein, which I'm reading right now.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 18th February 2010 18:16)

Quote (Locke_Cole @ 18th February 2010 12:44)

As for the calculated parts, I don't see any reason insane people can't be calculated.  But his acts never seemed purposeful.  He wasn't trying to take over the world, he was simply out there for the sole purpose to hurt people.  That's not evil, so much as twisted and insane.

Well, the insanity is in the lack of purpose or reason. Any sane person asks, "Why did he do what he did in Doma, or any other action he took?" The only answer is that he is crazy. But what I am saying is that those actions seemed meticulously planned out, which makes him even more horribly insane. It's like the Jack the Ripper murders. They were ghastly, and it is clear that the person who did them was out of his/her mind, yet the murders themselves seem to be done by someone who knew human anatomy and killed with surgical precision. While Kefka's action in Doma is unbelievable, in that someone would have it within them to do it, but it nevertheless was a good strategy, because it ended the conflict in Doma and served Kefka's purposes of gaining power.

He did seem to have an ultimate purpose of gaining power. Now, we don't know why, which is the part that makes him insane I guess.

You're right about Terra, but the difference is that she had no choice whether or not to wear the slave crown. Just like the person who took the drug, she was innocent in the matter. That might just be true about Kefka as well, but the only known difference is: Kefka did volunteer to undergo the infusion. He might have not known about the dangers of the procedure, but that is unlikely.

Edit

By the way, I would recommend it, and also Frankenstein, which I'm reading right now.

This made me think, whether Kefka is one of the few villains which actually achieved what they were looking for. Looking back at other final fantasy bosses:
Zeromus was looking to destroy Earth's population/take revenge on the Lunanarians for casting him out. The characters stopped him from achieving his goal.

Exdeath's goal was to suck everything into the void, which he came close to, but was ultimately prevented from carrying out.

Sepiroth tried to destroy the earth (I forget what they called it in FF7, didn't they have a name for it?) with Meteor and wanted to resurrect Jehova/annhilate human life. Also prevented from doing so.

Strangely enough, Kefka's goal was power. He achieved power. He didn't seem to have a goal of destroying the planet - he had the chance to do so many times over. He instead chose to be relatively quiet besides his random Light of Judgement sprees, and the only real damage we see from that was Mobliz. The Statues/World of Ruin formation wasn't entierly Kefka's fault; Gestahl had a hand in that, and don't forget Shadow moved the statues around, too, albeit to trap Kefka, not to mess the world up. Perhaps our characters didn't 'stop' Kefka, so much as brought him to justice for his crimes. Kefka absorbed the statues, he *became* magic. He was all 3 goddesses combined. Truly, did we defeat Kefka? Or just exact retribution?

I wish there was more dialogue in the game referring to Kefka. We hear a little bit about him from Edgar and Locke, some of the soldiers in the outpost near Doma, and some soldiers in Vector. Post-apocalypse, we hear relatively nothing about Kefka besides that he's in a tower. And we honestly have little information about him prior to the transfusion.

So much missing information...

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"A little tight, but the price was right" - Locke
"Oh, what a Fuddy Duddy" - Relm
"..." - Shadow
"I'm a General, not some love starved twit" - Celes
"Although Edgar showers his attention on the ladies, most are smart enough to pay him no attention. Oh! King Edgar!" - Figaro Castle Inn Attendant