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Ok guys, what's the deal? Anyone understand the timeline with this?

I am of course talking about Cloud's appearences in the KH games, and their relation to the accepted FF7 storyline. Maybe I am just going to come accross as one of those fanboy geeks who overthinks things, but I am very compulsive like this - things have to make sense or I just can't handle it.

In KH1 Cloud was in his Mercinary FF7 gear, in KH2 he's in his Advent Children gear, both times he battles with Sephiroth.

Is this some kind of parrallel universe deal? Some kind of timeline temperal travel kinda cross reality mix up? The Cloud in KH, obviously bears the same memories as Cloud from FF7, according to his appearence in the those games he IS the same Cloud. Right?

So has he entered some alternate reality? Or is this the same world in which AC takes place? And what about the chronology? Does it go KH1 - FF7 - KH2 - AC ? I mean that is sorta logical, since I recall Cloud had memory problems in KH1, and perhaps didn't even recognize Sephiroth at first. And Cloud loses his sleeve in AC, and still has it in KH2, so if there is a chronology, I would have to assume that KH2 happened first.

In the KH games Sephiroth apparently assumes the role of some hidden aspect of Cloud's subconscious, perhaps something about the fantastical environment of that world causing unressolved issues to manifest literally? At the start of FF7 he knew Sephiroth in his past, but had not yet come to terms with the complex details that connected them.

Like I said, I know this will seem sad and obsessive, but I like things to fit into a nice neat order, if they are going to use a FF7 character in KH and NOT acknowledge that event in the later FF7 adaptions, then are they not simply telling us to disregard the entire KH story as unimportant or even untrue?

Aren't they basically saying that Cloud's experiences in KH are pointless? Then why make them in the first place? Surely Cloud appears in those games as a part of his FF7 endevours inbetween the events of the in-game blanks and the movie. If not, then why use his character at all?

If I had to overspeculate, then I would have to say that there IS relevance to those experiences. When battling with Kedaj in AC, and he makes his transformation, Cloud says "Sephiroth" when he realizes who he turned into. But he doesn't say it with a particularly surprised tone, and on top of that, they start talking casually like they just met yesterday.

It seems to me that to Cloud's perspective, he is running into Sephiroth a lot, hence his slightly numbed reaction. Yet, if you exclude KH, it has been at least two years since his one real fight with the guy.

In addition, when Cloud slays Seph in their battle, Cloud is glowing with a golden aura, and capable of performing mid-air manauvers be previously wasn't. If anyone has seen the fight between Cloud and Sephiroth in KH2, you will see that it becomes both a debate, and a battle over light and darkness. That particular incarnation of Sephiroth appears to have been "conjoured" by Cloud's personal darkness, and Tiffa talks him into using his or her "light" to fight him off. At this point, Cloud begins to glow with the same golden aura we see in the later movie, and the false Sephiroth flees for his life.

Also, in the movie Seph says "where did you find this strength", an obvious hint at the fact that he had regained his faith after feeling broken. But could it also have something to do with Cloud's experiences at fighting his own personal "Sephiroth" in the KH universe? After all, there's no solid explanation for why he is such a match for Sephiroth.


Perhaps I am grasping at straws here, but the bottom line is, you shouldn't switch and swap characters between game storylines without creating a serious chronology for how it happened. I am not one of those people who can just accept that they decided to "share a character", with no needed explaination. For me it has to "make sense", otherwise will be up all night trying to make it do so.

I mean, if that is the case, which story are we expected to take seriously? Which "universe" is supposed to be the real one? Which CLOUD is the real one? KH also had Aries in it (I haven't played the game though, only watched the FMV's over Youtube) So perhaps this IS some kind of alternate reality, or fantasy reality.

But it has to be explained or people like me who think too much will go mad! Lol.


And yeah yeah, I know before you say it, KH is hardly the definition of realism what with all the disney characters, but the fact is they were all given plotlines. Goofy wasn't PLAYING Goofy, he had an in-game role. And so on, so why did they just use Cloud as-is? Why not give him a plotline? Well, presumably cos then he wouldn't be the Cloud we all know and love, but if that is the case, we have to assume that there is an explanation for how he got there, and for how he returned to his own world for the events of AC?

So what do you guys think? Is is the same Cloud, is there a linear chronology, is it all a wizard of Oz style fantasy or perhaps some Spiderman-esque alternate reality that draughts in characters from various worlds for an important showdown?

I just need an explanation before I have to write one and send it into Square and demand they use it somehow!

Yeah, I know I'm wierd, and sad, but it's just my way. Cloud was in KH, I'm not the kinda person that can just let that drop, I need an explanation.

[/OCD]

Thoughts?


The Founder

Final Fantasy and the Kingdom Hearts series do not share the same continuity. Just consider them separate realities.

Was it honestly that difficult to figure out? =3;

This post has been edited by Zeromus_X on 20th July 2006 02:26

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No... you don't get it...

It's not a case of figuring out, it's a case of understanding. Like I said above, ok so they are seperate realities. Why use the SAME Cloud character with the SAME past then?

If it is going to be inconsistent, why use the exact same characters?

Ok, I'm bad at explaining things, let me put it this way...

Cloud in KH, IS Cloud Strife from FF7. That's an undeniable fact. That person grew up in Nibelhiem and joined SOLDIER and did all of that, he has the same memories, personality, past. It's the same guy.

Which means there has to be a reason for how that guy got into the KH universe. An in turn, if that is to be validated, he has to have returned somehow.

If we are supposed to disregard this part of Cloud's life, then why include it at all?

Do you see where I am having the difficulty? Thanks for the fast reply by the way. Could have done with you reading what I said properly first though.


The Founder

No, I'm afraid you don't 'get it'. I was kindly trying to explain it to you.

First off, you're overthinking it. The series are from different continuities. All the Final Fantasy characters used in the KH series have different origins/backstories/whatever in the KH world. They didn't magically 'appear' in the series. It's really easy to figure out. Since Nomura is the director of the series, he can use his own characters as he sees fit.

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Cloud makes cameo appearances to boost sales, The creator of the games (Nomura) felt like putting Cloud in there, because he really likes cloud. It invovles no logic, like turning Setzer into a cheating pansy. They really just felt like it, but if you want me to be fictitious.

The higher beings in KH1 willed Cloud to serve hades, and was brought into the KH universe, Then let let him back into his own world AC occurs and he is yet again willed to thwe KH universe, and since time flows faster in FFVII than kingdom hearts, Cloud showed up in his new clothes. But lwt's not forget when he was willed to FFT on accident Ramza summoned Cloud through a machine, maybe between his FFVII KH1 febut.


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Zeromus, I get it just fine, I already admitted I was overthinking it, but that doesn't change my issue. If Cloud has a plotline as a seperate character entirely in the KH unvierse that suggests he is not the came Cloud as was used in FF7 then what is it?

Cloud_strife510, yeah I guess that is pheasable, and I had heard about the FFT thing but I assumed it was a rumour.

Also, in KHs when Cloud and Seph dissapears, one of the characters said "do you think they went back to their own world?"

I realize this was basically an attempt at raising sales, it just bothers me because it frells up the FF7 storyline. As I said earlier, I'm not good at just letting these things lie, I have this compulsion to make sense of it somehow.

Thanks once again for your replies.


The Founder

Quote (The Founder @ 19th July 2006 19:57)

Zeromus, I get it just fine, I already admitted I was overthinking it, but that doesn't change my issue. If Cloud has a plotline as a seperate character entirely in the KH unvierse that suggests he is not the came Cloud as was used in FF7 then what is it?

Oh, okay. Well, that's actually all it is. Cloud and the other FF characters originally lived in the Hollow Bastion ('Radiant Garden'), in the KH universe.

They don't go into much detail naturally, since this isn't about the Final Fantasy characters anyway. As for Sephiroth, he wasn't even in the original Japanese version of the first KH game, but was added in in the outside and Final Mix versions. He's of course in the second game. There isn't much to him either, other than being the optional superboss of the game. If you wanted to, you could think of the battle between him and Cloud and what Tifa said as some sort of metaphor or whatever (Light vs Darkness, like we haven't seen that before...), but there really isn't much to it.

But yeah, you can consider them different characters with different backstories.

Edit: Heh, people are still whining about Setzer.

This post has been edited by Zeromus_X on 20th July 2006 03:06

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I figured out what got me all confused about this.

It was the interview with *Steve Burton which I saw over Youtube (* The voice actor for Cloud in the KH games)

HE said that he loved playing Cloud because Cloud had such an epic story which everyone loves. Thereby leaving the imppression that he was playing the Cloud that HAD that history, when in truth he was a different "Cloud" entirely. HE left that implication, which is why I was so certain that the Cloud in KH was our Cloud.

He's responsible. It's all Steve Burton's fault. Hey, hey, I'm the victim here!!


The Founder

...Except he is also the AC Voice Actor, is he not? Just to clarify,this interview made no mention of Advent Cashin?

Understanding it is simple enough IMO. An alternate reality does not need a radical difference in everything to be alternate. One different event, one small change, that's all.

In this case however, Kashcow* Hearts has no respect for how it will work and is a trainwreck in plot terms with regards to the FF cameos. Since KH does not itself wish to understand it, there is nothing to understand. You understand it because it does not exist but cannot understand it because it does not exist.

That's how I see it. It's a paradox in my eyes. And because it's not supposed to be understood by default I do but don't.


*Gentlemen, this horse is only braindead. We can continue to flog it.





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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

this is false but it would be cool if that after FF7 cloud is still having memory problems and he ends up with it in KH but doesnt get his memory fixed.then in KH2 he starts to remeber everything but in Advent Children he is struck with geostigma and is getting affected by it but at the end he is cured and remebers everything now that he took on Zacks personality and thought he was 1 one of the best in SOLDIER behind Sephiroth.This is not true i just wanted to say it

The answer is quite simple: KH is not canon to the FFVII continuity. (Like, let's say SNK vs. CAPCOM is not canon for Street Fighter and KoF continuity).

While in KH the entire world-sucking thing happens, in the canon continuity for FFVII it doesn't.

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Quote (Del S @ 20th July 2006 08:15)

...Except he is also the AC Voice Actor, is he not? Just to clarify,this interview made no mention of Advent Cashin?

Understanding it is simple enough IMO. An alternate reality does not need a radical difference in everything to be alternate. One different event, one small change, that's all.

In this case however, Kashcow* Hearts has no respect for how it will work and is a trainwreck in plot terms with regards to the FF cameos. Since KH does not itself wish to understand it, there is nothing to understand. You understand it because it does not exist but cannot understand it because it does not exist.

That's how I see it. It's a paradox in my eyes. And because it's not supposed to be understood by default I do but don't.


*Gentlemen, this horse is only braindead. We can continue to flog it.

Okay, what?

Quote

The answer is quite simple: KH is not canon to the FFVII continuity.

Yep, that's it in a nutshell. Not tough to figure out. (Not directed at anyone.)

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Like the others said, KH isn't FF. Cloud was used in KH as an attempt to increase sales by marketing it as a Final Fantasy "game," similar to how Cecil, Terra, Locke, and Strago were used to boost Secret of Evermore. The Cloud in the KH universe has absolutely nothing to do with the FFVII Cloud's backstory. Look at Tidus, Wakka, and Selphie. They grew up together on Destiny Islands, even though their FF stories explicitly state where they grew up (Tidus in Zanarkand, Wakka in Besaid, and Selphie in that orphanage). Also, YuRiPa were made fairies in KH, and they weren't so in FFX-2.

In conclusion, the FF cameos in KH (and SoE) are far, far, far from the canon. -CSM

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Quote (Zeromus_X @ 21st July 2006 07:38)

Quote (Del S @ 20th July 2006 08:15)

...Except he is also the AC Voice Actor, is he not? Just to clarify,this interview made no mention of Advent Cashin?

Understanding it is simple enough IMO. An alternate reality does not need a radical difference in everything to be alternate. One different event, one small change, that's all.

In this case however, Kashcow* Hearts has no respect for how it will work and is a trainwreck in plot terms with regards to the FF cameos. Since KH does not itself wish to understand it, there is nothing to understand. You understand it because it does not exist but cannot understand it because it does not exist.

That's how I see it. It's a paradox in my eyes. And because it's not supposed to be understood by default I do but don't.


*Gentlemen, this horse is only braindead. We can continue to flog it.

Okay, what?

Simple. Or rather, not very.

By making such a confusing and rambling message I was parodying the very possibilty of Kingdom Hearts and FF7 having the very same canon. If it was remotely possible it would be very confusing and somewhat silly. As it stands, I think the KH Cloud is an alternate reality equivelant of Cloud who has a virtually identical backstory, but there is one key difference at some point, presumably the heartless.

I think that Kingdom Hearts basic attitude to all the cameos is that, as an excuse for a cheap set of crossovers backed up by a plot that admittedly should be strong enough to stand on it's own, but is somewhat damaged in impact by all these cameos, the writers simply did not care how or why, but instead, when? Because they don't care, why should we? In short, all you need understand about the relation of the two canons is, there is not relation and other than that, there is nothing else to understand. They never intended them to be canon, and they didn't really care about anything but progression of it's own plot through cheap cameos as well as make a little extra cash.

That results in the entire KH plot being nothing more than a smokescreen to a cheap amount of cameos and basically just a pure hollywood game rather than an attempt to tell a story and entertain primarily. It may still manage to succeed to some people, but in the name of money they allow holes to remain that could simply get larger unless they fill them. The KH series is already having notable effects on the cameo'd FF characters. When we see that character now, we think of their KH rendition, and that weighs negatively upon that character in many occasions. But that has been discussed elsewhere.






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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

i think KH comes in later after FFVII because he has memory problems in KH
and in KH2 and doesnt get cured until Advent Children so i think they all tie
in together some how... but its confusing if you think about it

In 1997, Cloud and his friends had this awesome story, and Square people filmed it.

Cloud became famous as a result of that film, and Square hired him to star in a separate ditty called "Kingdom Hearts". He agreed, and as Square expected, his presence boosted sales of "Kingdom Hearts".

Recently, Square has filmed a sequel to Cloud's original story. It's called Advent Children.

Square has also once again requested that Cloud star in another little ditty, this time called "Kingdom Hearts 2".

That, or they're using Cloud's stunt double.

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You now what i dont get is how the hell you mix disney and Final Fantasy to make a RPG!? like what is up! squares starting to get soft on me.

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yea... the entire disney... its sorta childish not back then where nothing was much childish really.They should put some world that you visit thats from FF7 or somthing.They really over did it with the disney and not much of Square.
but i did like the hollow bastion place (radiant garden) at least they were in somthing.

OK, guys, the topic is about connecting Cloud's appearances cross-series, not stuff like "OMG I H8 DIZNEY Y SQUARE Y." That's been done to death.

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Quote (The Founder @ 20th July 2006 02:33)

No... you don't get it...

It's not a case of figuring out, it's a case of understanding. Like I said above, ok so they are seperate realities. Why use the SAME Cloud character with the SAME past then?

If it is going to be inconsistent, why use the exact same characters?

Ok, I'm bad at explaining things, let me put it this way...

Cloud in KH, IS Cloud Strife from FF7. That's an undeniable fact. That person grew up in Nibelhiem and joined SOLDIER and did all of that, he has the same memories, personality, past. It's the same guy.

Which means there has to be a reason for how that guy got into the KH universe. An in turn, if that is to be validated, he has to have returned somehow.

If we are supposed to disregard this part of Cloud's life, then why include it at all?

Do you see where I am having the difficulty? Thanks for the fast reply by the way. Could have done with you reading what I said properly first though.


The Founder

No, no, no! It's NOT the exact same character, he's an alternate reality of that character. You can't possibly say that it's the same Aeris... she's DEAD. And I'm pretty sure that Yuna, Rikku and Paine weren't FAIRIES in FFX-2. No, these are different people, man... except for maybe Auron. Nothing suggests difference in him, and the ending scene supports that he's the exact same Auron (not gonna give it away).

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