Track this topic | Email this topic | Print this topic

What did you miss GC? I got all of them right except for the FE vs. SH match. I believe Warcraft vs. GTA was really close though.

--------------------

Dead Winter. A nice comic.

Quote (Super Moogle @ 10th July 2006 21:57)

Goz giving lectures about elitism? Color me confused.

Anyway, I don't even know what the "underground" gaming movement is, so I can't consider myself a proponent of it. I don't particularly care if a person hates Harvest Moon. That's his opinion, and he's entitled to it. However, the fellow in question remarked that he "accused people" of playing Harvest Moon - however hyperbolic, I believed that the poor phraseology demanded an equally exaggerated response. Do I really think he should spend hours of brooding, guilty contemplation wondering why he despises a great game series? No. Do I feel that Harvest Moon is a wonderfully fun and innovative series that deserves a second look? Yeah. So I responded in kind. For what it's worth, I thought Kingdom Hearts was a pleasant game too, and innovative in a different way (setting and environment).

I don't think I'm a better person or a more qualified "gamer" for playing games like Harvest Moon, but I appreciate the series for the sake of its own quality. I think you need to take a step back and appreciate this sort of thing on a case by case basis, rather than trying to apply some kind of over-arching, deep-rooted and ultimately ridiculous stereotype of the elitist "underground game" fanatic. I, at least, am not out to "crucify" anyone as far as I know.

Anyway, I don't see why you always have to resort to these backhanded personal attacks. I don't know what makes you think you're qualified to talk about my "innovation kick" or whatever, seeing as I haven't so much as had a conversation about video games (or anything else for that matter) with you for quite some time now. Yeah, I thought Pikmin was a fun game, and I think Miyamoto is a creative genius, but it's not in my top five games of all time or even my top five games of the year/season/month Pikmin came out in. Where does Pikmin even come into this? I'm sure you can dig up some obscure forum post out of context to support your argument about my character or preferences, but frankly I don't care one way or the other. Lighten up.

oho, hypocrisy much? not that i'm really surprised; i half-expected that you'd have the audacity to actually dare to respond condemning me for "personal attacks." measured against the post of yours i quoted earlier in the thread, it really just doesn't add up, and you of all people should know better.

"underground gaming," so far as i know, doesn't exist. i used quotes around the word to give it a somewhat pliant feel; plainly it is evocative of the underground music/art/film scenes, or whathaveyou, in that the patrons of those scenes tend to be inflated with an unrequited sense of self-worth simply on the account of their unpopular indulgences more often than not. that's not to say the concept of "underground gaming," while obviously valid, is a rigid concept -- after all, to say that one is a "proponent of the underground music scene" would be completely nonsensical. in the same way, there are many different facets of "underground gaming" that can and do tend to lead their respective fans into varying grades of self-importance.

how can you possibly say you don't care what he thinks about harvest moon in light of your outrageous pontification in the previous post? who cares if someone "accuses" people of playing hm, whatever that even means in the first place? let's review, again, because you might have missed it in my first post: while hm series comsisted of excellent games following from the conception of a relatively novel idea in gaming, the game itself is about as *far* from a gamer's game as you can get. it's very laid back, there isn't much action at all, and it's not a test of skill in any way -- it ranks up there about with pkmn snap on the "games you don't get to have bragging rights for winning." it's lighthearted game whose most stressful aspects are shelling out for a greenhouse or choosing which girl to marry...if there was ever a game that people could be "accused" of playing, it's hm -- it certainly fits the bill of a game that your average, red-blooded american young adult male might like to hide behind mgs or tekken on the shelf.

and then we come to the main point: who cares if you're *accused* of playing a game series that you like? in the past, before it got the extolling press and critical acclaim it deserved, i was "accused" as an 18- or 19-year old of playing kh, a "disney-kiddy game," by friends of mine. my response was to detail to my friends exactly what they were missing; now, two of my friends who aren't even really console gamers have likewise fallen in love with the series. so who accuses me of elitism? in other threads when people rip mercilessly on kh, or ff7, or ffx, when have you EVER, even ONCE seen me resort to any personal attacks of the like you spewed out in "defence" of hm? i've got notiong against a good bit of vinegar, but you'll note that personal attacks tend only come from me when people refuse to confer with the established facts in an argument, not when people give a half-assed negative opinion of a series i like. the guy said he accused people of playing hm -- an understandable assertion, at least coming from the average gamer. your response, however "in kind" you think it may have been, was *way* overboard -- did you really think, in good conscience, people reading a post about "circumventing" borders that was filled with the elitist overtones yours was would let you get away with it? i don't know about you, but i take *far* more offence at the implication that i am a narrow-minded, intellectually and creatively deficient visigoth than at being "accused" of playing an unpopular game series that i like. come on now, "incapable of appreciating subtlety" for not liking a f.ing farming sim? you're out of your mind.

bringing up pikmin -- and i'm sorry i ever did, because as it apparently turns out, you actually still, after having had the chance to play pikmin, think it is a game borne of creative genius...but i guess it just goes to prove my point about you -- was to put "elitism" in the proper context. now, most posters at the con, given that we deal largely with older-generation games, if catering to elitism, tend to cater to what i call the "old-school elitism" system of thought: 3d ruined games, ff6 is the best ff, amano's characters are better than nomura's, &c. it's not too surprising that people hold these opinions, seeing as many of us are porbably coloured by nostalgia, having played the series from its early nes or snes installments. the problem is when these mantras are recited as blanket truths, which is so often the case here at con, and critical examination is left by the wayside and productive debate stonewalled in favour of the preservation of the elitist statutes -- anything popular must have sucked, i'm the COOLEST for liking 2d ffs, people who bought into ff7 and later are all a bunch of imbecile graphics whores...at any rate, it's much more than irritating to have to read that type of trash all over the boards, but as fate would have it, the reaching majority of the old-school elitists are a bunch of idiot windmills who can't even properly recite the old-school elitist argument, so they become rather easy to ignore.

you, on the other hand, as one of the most intelligent and analytical members of this community, cannot be excused for allowing your gaming peculiarities to draw you into the elitist mindframe. again, your thing is innovation. i don't fault you for being a blind miyamoto fanboy -- he's made some of the best games of all time. but nothing he's done post-ocarina has been too much worth mentioning, much less worth extolling as a work of creative genius. miyamoto's steam, perhaps, has run out; his muse has left the building. it's not to take anything away from miyamoto, for dylan himself had whole decades of ill-conceived product, and who can deny that he is the premiere creative genius of all time? but blazing back to the path -- what you've done here, quite clearly, is extend the elitist frame of mind to *your* type of game, the "innovation" genre (for lack). you can't say you haven't, because there's no way such a condescending and judgmental post could have come from merely a defender of the series -- you have fooled yourself into thinking that, simply because you're an hm fan, -- and by all means it is a fortuitive thing to have played and enjoyed hm back in its day -- you are somehow more capable of appreciating innovative subtlety in games that the run-of-the-mill gamer cannot.

now, this is a long-ass post to be off-topic, but the vigilant and intuitive reader will have already noticed that this post is a perfect caricature of the gaming community at large -- especially the older crowd therewithin. old-school elitism, or maybe her less seductive younger sister, nostalgia, can be the *only* explanation as to why sonic can be possibly beating dmc. it's why zelda is going to take the whole thing, when mgs should clearly be the winner -- zelda may have brought more innovation, and it may even have a better signature game (though i would disagree by a hair), but a good half of the zelda games were complete failures of innovation (or just uninspired rehashes, in the case of mm). now, every gamein the mgs series to date has been hardly short of perfect, with impeccable storylines, fluid and expansive gameplay given to some of the most imaginative use of the ps2 controller, excellent graphics and music (of course), provocative and original themes, and more unnecessary bullshit extras in each than are spread accross maybe the whole spectrum of zelda games -- there's nothing that says "well-made game" like a bunch of non-target extras fleshing out the experience.

but mgs, unfortunately, is a new gaming series. the only people, after all, who would *dare* vote a new gaming series over an old one are the newbie gamers who haven't been around as long as *i* have. *me,* i'm cool enough to have been around long enough to have played the first couple of zelda games. they're 2d!! how many of you mgs voters can claim to have played 2d games!?

Ok, boys, whip 'em out.

--------------------

Veni, vidi, dormivi.

This topic at large reminds me why a) I hate popularity polls of any kind and why I'm no longer a gamer.

Edit

I'm a professional web developer. My interest is in building an awesome site and then having a nice community. Beyond that, do what you will.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 12th July 2006 18:58

--------------------

"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Rangers51 who runs a FF forum, "isn't a gamer"!!?? T_T so sad

On the topic i wish these voting things would be easier to see all of the results without havign to register, i'm registered on so many forums/sites it's not even funny

--------------------

Adma <3 CoN

Wall of Text FTW. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: video games are now serious business.

Let's try not to hijack this little thread any further than we already have, okay? Carry on.

--------------------

"I always have a quotation for everything - it saves original thinking."
~Dorothy L. Sayers

"The truly remarkable thing about television is that it allows several million people to laugh at the same joke and still feel lonely."
~T.S. Eliot

"Defeat is not defeat unless accepted as reality - in your own mind!"
~ Bruce Lee

I have to admit, I voted for Sonic in this most recent one, even if the series is crap
now. I think it was the first port to make me want a portable gaming platform, and
in emulation it reminds me of how alternate-platformer it is. Recalling DevilMayCry1,
though, and outdoor (urban?) elements of DevilMayCry2 (haven't completed DMC3
yet), I have to admit that Gozaru's note* on nolstagia makes me rethink if my
vote was cast appropriately. Still, I think there's enough gaming goodness to keep
Sonic's portion of the pie. The landslide, of course, is the nolstagia effect kicking in
across the GameFAQs audience, probably. I find it surprising that the ratio of people
choosing blood orbs is 1 to every 3 ring-wraiths; that's got to be unconscious drift.

* Ha! 'Note' implies brevity. It's actually a verbose, but well thought, essay. Or assay.
Or just assault! Ha! Sorry Goz; the linguaphile in me wouldn't stop typing. Each var
works!

I was thinking about how you could actually track the value of each series, although
it presents problems in and of itself. If this were an actual project. For instance, first
equalize sales across all times (adjusting for inflation to create a base dollar of financial
value per game), telling us the relative popularity and penetration of the game.
Then contrast this against other measurable variables (public domain data): media
awareness by number of newstories cited as reviews (adjusted against the
timeframe of the media itself, to account for gaming publications that came and went
over time). How much the value of the stock price of the game's studio has appreciated
over time, presenting this as a percentage of growth/decline against its initial debut;
this would measure investor/analyst faith in the developer (not the value of the shares
now, but their variance). Maybe try to gauge popularity amonst the public by seeing
how much mindshare each game has, as cumulative-hits-per-google. And finally, creating
a field in which the number of published products (retail games) is measured against
approximate numbers of the potential install base (game-station, PC or console, owners);
this would tell you what the initial expectations were for first-print sales. If
the game went into second-print, a la PlatinumHits or GreatestHits or whatever,
factor that in too. And then see what the staying power is: even without a PacMan
game out in ages, PacMan is still out there as a brand, on shirts, in references, etc.

This part is all thought-experiment. For you data-geeks, what other variables would
you add, or tweak, to this equation. No bullshit probabilities, people. Soft facts have
no place in serious discussion. But there do seem to be inferential points from which
real data could be extracted on the issue of this GameFAQs poll. Fun numbers. As
Gould said, 'The more important the subject and the closer it cuts to the bone of our
hopes and needs, the more we are likely to err in establishing a framework for analysis.'
I don't really want to see a point proven (although I'm sure some will try),
but really just to see what other concrete metrics could be applied to such a question.

--------------------

Putting the A's in W lm rt: A11smart, Jobclass: Retailer.

I goofed up on the Catlevania/Halo match FE/Sh match, and i think GTA/WC, im not sure on the third one, im hoping to get back up higher.

I still have a perfect.

Ahh, darnit, I had a long post here.

Anyway, I've only missed one so far, and that's KH vs. HM. This means that it'll be Castlevania vs. KH. Cv is a well-established series, with numerous high-quality games, and it would really be a shame if it lost to a series whose plot doesn't make much sense (even less than Cv's, gasp!) and which holds significant appeal to "kawainess" fankids. But even if it beats Cv, KH will have to go up against Metal Gear, and between the two of them (Cv and MG), I think KH will be "contained".

The bigger concern is that I'll likely miss another one pretty soon, and this one will matter. Smash will probably beat DQ, and then Sonic, and then go up against Mario. That will be an interesting match to watch, and I hope Mario wins. But if Mario doesn't, Smash will probably go up against Final Fantasy (from the Ultima division), and I predict that FF will win such a match.

--------------------

Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Too bad MarvelVs didn't make it onto the listings. The VsCapcoms were great, and
even VsSNK was fun. My RPG heart takes stock in gil, not gold, so my vote went to the
digital pugilist's dream.

--------------------

Putting the A's in W lm rt: A11smart, Jobclass: Retailer.

My bracket is still perfect, but I *really* need Castlevania to beat Kingdom Hearts right now. Everyone! Vote for Castlevania! We're winning by only a few hundred!

--------------------

this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

I came back too late and saw the ruin.

Kingdom Hearts beat Castlevania.

I no longer have respect for the GameFAQs community (past the FAQs part).

And now to bash Square for creating a fankid-centric series (with correspondingly many youtube videos) and GameFAQs for incubating a large population of fankids.

I continue to maintain that the Castlevania series truly focuses on gameplay, and just for that, if not for any other awesomeness of it, it should receive much more attention and praise.

I will also feel guilty for not helping out, especially after hearing about how the poll result was within less than 100 votes. As payment, however, I will help Snake kick Sora's rear.

People, please vote for Metal Gear when it goes up against Kingdom Hearts.

--------------------

Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

waaah someone's opinion is different than mine waaah

--------------------

Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

FinalFantasy: snootch to the motherforkin' nootch!

--------------------

Putting the A's in W lm rt: A11smart, Jobclass: Retailer.

Don't worry GMH, You're not the only shocked one. Imagine how poor lazlow is holding up I really hope MG can beat KH.

I like Kingdom Hearts, but I like Cv more.

--------------------

Dead Winter. A nice comic.

Quote (Neal @ 24th July 2006 12:22)

waaah someone's opinion is different than mine waaah

It's called "amusement", and it's also called "whee for cannon fodder against fankids".

Like I really think that internet polls are incredibly accurate, reliable, and truthful.

Quote (A11smart)

FinalFantasy: snootch to the motherforkin' nootch!

And as a realistic estimate, I still predict that Final Fantasy will win.

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 25th July 2006 14:49

--------------------

Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

As a realistic estimate, I still think that Zelda's winning. Link's dominance in character polls, the only exceptions being the one year that Cloud won and the year Sephiroth won the villans' contest, and the overall popularity of the Zelda series is probably too overwhelming.

And yeah, I know that Castlevania is the better series, but I'm very glad that it was a close one, at the very least. Kingdom Hearts, in all its popularity, is only two very good games and one ****ty game, while Castlevania has at least five or six very good games in its twenty-odd installments. Whatever. Kingdom Hearts 2's recent success is probably to blame for this.

--------------------

this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

With the Final8 looming, it's obvious where my heart will be Charmed in that last
bracket. And even in the next, because as much as KingdomHearts rekindled my
love of classic and modern Disney movies, I would have preferred MGS over the
MetalGear series. But SuperMarioBros versus SuperSmashBros: wow. One is a
veritable piece of gaming history, back ever so often with amazing new gameplay.
The other was more awesome than MarvelVsCapcom. And for this first bracket. I
can't say I'd have less to wish for; FourSwordsAdv and ALinkToThePast still stand
as some of my favourite games evar.
At least the pairings are exciting now!

--------------------

Putting the A's in W lm rt: A11smart, Jobclass: Retailer.

I'm am shocked that Kingdom hearts beat out Castlevania, I guess that shows the age of most gamfaqs voters.
this is just why you can't trust these polls, doesn't really invovle everyone voting.
Yet it would be funny to see "What's the Greatest Videogame of all Time?" on the Census.

--------------------

"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"

Well, tomorrow is FF vs. Zelda, as i predicted at the beginning of this whole thing, and its on my birthday too, FF must win vote for it....

Quote (A11smart @ 25th July 2006 01:10)

FinalFantasy: snootch to the motherforkin' nootch!

Again in the mostly-words of the Profit: Word, b!tch, [Fantasy] like a fallmucker.
FinalFantasy for t3h win!!1!1! Don't forget to vote!

--------------------

Putting the A's in W lm rt: A11smart, Jobclass: Retailer.

My bracket was goin' into the red in the initial rounds, but I'm up to 45 points now and the final four are goin' my way. Final Fantasy's only up by about 8000 votes right now...pretty dang close

--------------------

It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

I'm surprised you guy's want FF to beat Zelda so bad, personally i prefer Zelda to FF.
I can only hope the Poll will have some merit and Zelda will win.

--------------------

"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"

And the winner is...the Zelda series.

My opinion on the latest "result poll"?

"Is The Legend of Zelda really the best game series of all time?
Yes, and the votes proved it 39.43% 38000
Maybe, it depends on Twilight Princess 9.95% 9593
No, Final Fantasy got robbed 28.15% 27128
No, Super Mario Bros. could have beaten it 8% 7714
No, I can think of a much better series 14.46% 13937
TOTAL VOTES 96372"

I voted "No, I can think of a much better series".

Somehow, only one Zelda game has stood out to me enough such that I've bothered to play it, and that was Link to the Past. Then again, it's the only Zelda game I've played to any signficant extent. I sampled one of the N64 or GC Zelda games once, and I've also sampled Zelda 1 (NES), but other than that, I've never been that interested in the Zelda games. Maybe I'll try Link's Awakening sooner or later, but that's partly because I've read about it extensively as a result of reading through the Super Game Boy Player's Guide (which came with the SGB). I guess it may be a "you've gotta play it for it to catch your attention" series.

On the other hand, it may be merely that I don't have a taste for it. I never doubt that they're good games (except possibly the anti-legendary Philips CD-I Zelda games), but I've never gotten into them. Somehow, Mario games have been more fun, Final Fantasy games have been more interesting, Castlevania games have been more enjoyable (and on the fan-work side, funnier), and Metroid games have been more [insert another adjective here between "explorable" and "fun"].

I did get into LttP after I actually played it, not from looking at screenshots (WA4) or watching gameplay (Metroid series) or listening to the music (MM6, SotN). For some reason, though, while I like open-ended exploration (Castlevania, Metroid), I don't really seem to enjoy it as much in LttP. Then again, not all exploration games are created equal, as I enjoy Castlevania more than Metroid. I haven't figured out why I like exploration games differentially, but the reasons there may explain why I'm not a Zelda fan.

And maybe it's just that I generally prefer "darker"/"deeper"/more dramatic games, which would explain Castlevania and Metroid, but not Mario. Then again, I don't especially like the Mario series, but I do like games like Yoshi's Island and Mario RPG.

Opinions on games are by a significant portion merely a matter of taste anyway. I found Koji Kondo's soundtrack for Lttp to be nice, but not especially impressive, but I'm sure someone will disagree with me on that. Similarly, I'm sure there are people who love the Link character while I find him rather uninteresting, while they would find my coming up with a backstory for a MMX-style fan-created character and a blue-green humanoid creature with a sleek look to be strange.

And in any case, I may be in a position to judge LttP, but I'm probably not in a position to judge the entire series--not counting LttP, my idea of the other games comes pretty much entirely secondhand.

The Castlevania series still has the best music, though, and the Final Fantasy series has the best plots.

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 2nd August 2006 20:01

--------------------

Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

While both series have the same kind of basis, starting out weak and saving the world
by game-end, I felt that FinalFantasy has always delivered the depth and intricacy
I expect from games. While PacMan stole my heart, FinalFantasy clearly stole my
wallet: because of Square's masterpiece series, I went from casual gamer (I'll play
at your house, sure) to invested gamer (pre-order FFXIII in 2005? Ok!). For me, at
least, the FinalFantasy series is the Best. Series. Ever.

--------------------

Putting the A's in W lm rt: A11smart, Jobclass: Retailer.