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Wait, what is the debate on now?

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OSonic Rave
/ \Last Arcanum
[ ]Strike Raid
XRagnarok

The odor theory pans out if you figure they're at the top of the castle, and it had dissapated by the time it reached them.

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

I have to disagree with the odor theory. I'm not too sure why poison would be dumped into the water to release toxic odors... Addtionally, I don't think the soldiers would drink purple water, obviously the poison would take time to permeate through their supplies, but it was deadly enough when they drank it. Plus, Cyan noticed the water when it turned purple, supporting my theory that soldiers probably wouldn't drink purple water. Also, if it was odor based, then how did the King and Cyan's wife and child also die? Cyan wasn't too far from them...

While it doesn't explain the coincidence of all soldiers dying at the same point and time, or why Cyan and the one soldier just happened not to drink (or maybe be affected in the first place), it does make sense.

Another comment of an imperial soldier's also somewhat affects my theory. He says something along the lines of "but we have prisoners in the castle". I don't he would be very concerned that toxic fumes would reach prisoners deep within a castle, but then again if it reached the king...

And finally, I don't think that if Cyan walked down to the King, his wife and child, and then walked outside of Doma, that he somehow managed not to breathe in any toxins. The poison was still there, its not like it dissapated after 2 minutes, which is probably the most reasonable theory against the odor-poison.

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"A little tight, but the price was right" - Locke
"Oh, what a Fuddy Duddy" - Relm
"..." - Shadow
"I'm a General, not some love starved twit" - Celes
"Although Edgar showers his attention on the ladies, most are smart enough to pay him no attention. Oh! King Edgar!" - Figaro Castle Inn Attendant

Let's just say that it was magical plot device posion that caused death so as to create the best storyline situation. Magically.

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Don't tease the octopus kids!

NeoEx-Death, Aeroga is a spell from Kingdom Hearts. Celes also doesn't sing because it embarresses her.

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"Some people are examles of stupidity. Others are stupidity itself." -Me

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Terra burning 50 magitek armors in 3 minutes. Well this one is stupid. Without an armor on herself, she'd hardly defeat 50 rats at that moment of the game. But we see her doing that mayhem in a magitek armor herself - but then again what's so impressive about that?

Slave Crown. She has that ability within herself genetically. It's just a matter of knowing and remembering how to activate it. The same goes for Celes, who was infused when very very young. It's also the reason why they are the two characters that can learn spells in the game without Espers; the Empire's memory wiping tech is temporary, and the victim slowly and eventually regains their memory. Considering the Empire's tactics, I wouldn't be surprised that as part of Celes' traitor sentence that her memory of magic use would be wiped as well, hence why the terrifying General Chere is beat down by some punk in a jail cell. The Empire has the tech to mess with your mind. I doubt Terra's the only person they used it on.

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The whole Tritoch and Narshe thing. It is said, that he remained hidden untill the events just before we enter Narshe for the first time. But Narshe guards managed not only to seal it with a gate, but also bring Whelk arround. Ok, let's say they were pretty fast with all that. But why does Arvis afterwards say, that "everybody in Narshe is anxious to see the Esper" as if nobody saw it earlier?

Well, just because they know of it doesn't mean they've seen it. We know that bacteria exists but most of us have never seen it before (unless your foot falls off from gangrene). Narshe guards probably make up a small proportion of the population, but there are just enough in there to scrape together a makeshift fence and someone's pet Whelk or something they rescued from the circus.

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Women in Figaro castle. Yeah, like NO WOMAN IN THE WORLD would like to go to bed with a young and handsome king. They all are "too smart for that". Yeah, right

That's a narrow-minded and rather misogynist view. I hope you aren't serious about that.

As a woman, I can tell you that male sluts turn me off. Who knows what they've slept with and what diseases they've picked up? Besides, if he has a record of being a flirt with no commitment, what's the point of pursuing him. As someone pointed out before, he'd be their cousin of sorts as well. There are also two types of adult women sprites in FF -- the twentysomething and the old maid. For all we know, most of these women are old enough to be Edgar's mom without being grey. The maids we saw could be well over 35 and/or married.

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Sabins house has three beds. Who for, since he lived there alone?

He is a monk in training. He could have them for Vargas and Duncan, since they trained together. Or there could be an element of charity to his monk order where he offers assistance to all in need. Either way, it's explained.

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Why does Cyan point at the Phantom Forest and Barren Falls as the only rout to Narshe? Both don't seem as especially friendly places, and I doubt, that Doma people tend to choose jumping down a waterfall as any means of transportation.

Only way they can go after the Empire has cut off most major highways for their captive cities. Don't forget that Cyan's the Retainer and sole survivor of Doma as well as Sabin being related to Edgar, who is now also a wanted man for making an idiot out of Kefka. Witness to a genocide and a relative of a known Returner collaborator -- the crazier the exit, the less likely the troopers are to follow.

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The poison poured into the water by Kefka instantly kills everyone, except for Cyan and the soldier standing besides him. I presume that it's because they stand to high for the poison to reach them - but a few seconds later the go down to the castle and still are not affected. Cyan doesn't even have a poisoned status.

Have you ever lived inside of an old house? For some with old pipes, it takes a few minutes for the hot water to come up from the tank. Til then, you're stuck with the cold water that was still in both pipes. Doma being an old castle, it likely has a cistern or some aquaduct system underneath the castle. At any rate, Cyan and his buddy are at the top of the castle. If they had turned the faucets on up there, they would still get clean water even if the cistern had already been poisoned; clean water is still in the pipes. Additionally, it takes time for things to dilute in water -- not instantaneous -- as well as there is implied time passage within the game itself.

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Edgar & Sabin. At first I understood that they settled the thing with a plain coin toss, Sabin had won and opted for freedom, leaving Edgar as king. But some time later we see, that Celes takes a two-headed coin from Edgar when persuading Setzer - the same coin (as Sabin notices). So Edgar cheated Sabin out of the throne, though Sabin doesn't even mind for a second. I know he never wanted to be king, but still - what Edgar did was at least nasty.

No. He freed his brother. Sabin wanted to be free of the crown desperately. He wanted to follow a lifepath diametrically opposite to that of a comfy royal -- monk. He'd be utterly miserable in that life. Edgar simply saved him from that and gave up a life of gallivanting.

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Locke keeps his deceased girlfriends corpse in a basement. I know how it turns out, but I always found it extremely revolting.

Suspended animation. She is virtually dead to the world and to him -- no response. However, her body continues to live which is what gives Locke hope that this Sleeping Beauty/Snow White scenario will work out. Or you could take the Princess Bride "a little alive" scenario.

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Celes is a general, a warrior, a soldier. A very serious general at that. She probably had never, ever sand a single song in her whole life. And within 5 seconds she manages to sing like the best opera singer available, no training, no nothing. Stupid.

Not very. Officers in various old civilizations were often required to be more than just good fighters but also to have great minds as well. Some were encouraged to take up the arts while others took up the maths or other academic pursuits along with the dauphins, princes, princesses, courtesans, ladies in waiting, whatever. Either way, I wouldn't find it surprising that in his weird way, Gestahl wanted his "children" to be well balanced individuals. Celes may very well had singing lessons. It's not out of the question, particularly since she was high ranking, gifted, and Gestahl's "child."

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This one is characteristical for all FF parts: Ramuh asks our team, to free hist mates from the Imperial Research Facility. So: 6 heroes are to go to the capital of the country they are at war with, enter their biggest and best guarded facility and sabotage the project wich is vital for this countriy domination. Sure, it's possible. But at least they could have some actuall plan how to do it... pity, cause they practically waltz inside, trash everything and leave almost unbothered (well... bothered, but hey - this is the most powerfull country in the world! It could and should do better!)

It's an RPG. A video game. Would you rather read or do? One of my quibbles with FFX was that the computer played a fair portion of the game without me. Move a little, cutscene explaining everything, rinse and repeat. Also, it's a fairly straightforward missoin -- jailbreak -- with some unexpected perpetrators. These Returners are new and unexpected in more ways than one. Celes and Cyan are supposed to be dead. Locke is a lowly thief. Edgar is a king -- what king in his right mind would put himself on the line while a kingdom is waiting for him. Sabin has been AWOL for years being a monk. Gau is a myth at best. Terra is missing as well as having her memory wiped. She's probably the last one to come rallying back trying to overthrow the Empire. You don't need much of a plan when you have a straightforward mission and that much of a drop on the enemy.

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Why the hell does Locke doubt in Celes? Where and when does she do anything, that could make him doubt her?

Hmm. Ex-general who genocided people as part of her weekly routine, witch, Kefka saying she is a spy, Locke's own weakness of being suckered in by damsels in distress...there was a lot to work with doubtwise. Besides, he hasn't known her that long. Few weeks, tops, plus she has a whole 18 years of being pro-Empire behind her.

Well, it looks like Guitar Slayer pretty much just owned us all, eh?

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

I have just enough grace to blush appropriately. Didn't mean to kill the thread!

I'm a big FF and DCAU geek as well as being a Theatre/English major and a History major -- genre structures, historical references, and mythology make me happy. I'm shooting for a career as script writer/editor, and I'm a mod at a few fan fic boards; in short, I seek and destroy plotholes and the unexplained.

The thread was already dead by the time you responded to OP. In fact, most of the arguments you raised were repeats of those in the first page or two... so no harm, no foul.

I do bring this into question though:

Quote (The Guitar Slayer)

Not very. Officers in various old civilizations were often required to be more than just good fighters but also to have great minds as well. Some were encouraged to take up the arts while others took up the maths or other academic pursuits along with the dauphins, princes, princesses, courtesans, ladies in waiting, whatever. Either way, I wouldn't find it surprising that in his weird way, Gestahl wanted his "children" to be well balanced individuals. Celes may very well had singing lessons. It's not out of the question, particularly since she was high ranking, gifted, and Gestahl's "child."

Officers in old civilizations? Even if you're lucky enough to have a professional army at the time, commanders were normally borne of social rank, birthright and political power over any other criteria. To say that you didn't find her singing ability surprising (considering Celes' age, her abilities, in addition to military training and rank) seems strange. The achievements that Celes has attained in eighteen years -- including honing a magical ability unique to her -- suggests the opposite of what you hypothesized. Celes was nowhere near a balanced individual.

She was a military machine, born, augmented and raised to be nothing more than an extension of the Imperial Armed Forces. She's a soldier, not some Opera floozy!

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

I think most people in the Empire's hierarchy are a few cans short of a six pack. Like, six short. That said, besides Leo, Celes seems to be fairly well adjusted. I mean, other than the witchy genociding child soldier thing.

As to being balanced, I think she would have had the time and the knack to pick up singing. Have you ever met someone who was just a natural whiz at something? Class with them was hell because they'd be done so early and just sit there and chill out while you worked your tail off. Magic came naturally to Celes. She made the rank of general in a very short time. She likely was a master of her ability at a young age. In the meantime, the Empire was preparing for the world takeover, but for a battle general like Celes, that leaves her a lot of spare time if she is not on the field.

Who's not to say that rather than be twiddling her thumbs while waiting for the Empire to go into battle, she took up a hobby? I've seen modern soldiers and officers who can really belt the Star Spangled Banner like a professional singer with and without training provided by the armed forces. Remember, when you are the evil empire, you aren't so
evil. Nobody would want to join if there were no perks to being a soldier; not everyone was forcibly assimulated.

The empire isn't exactly evil... the soldiers do have consciences as we see in the camp in Sabin's Scenario, and again when talking to the soldiers at the dinner with Ghestal.

It's more that Kefka's insanity and Emperor Ghestal's alterior motives/greed make the empire appear evil. General Celes was most likely inbetween Kefka and Leo, and she seems to change throughout the plot from more of a cold general to a more emotional ally, most likely due to her feelings with Locke, and her friendships with the rest of the party.

And, who says Celes just didn't sing songs by her lonesome? I sing by myself a lot, I'm not very good, but, I do sing whenever I'm in the mood. Perhaps she just had a very good natural voice? And who's to say she was actually good at singing opera... perhaps the audience hated her voice

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"A little tight, but the price was right" - Locke
"Oh, what a Fuddy Duddy" - Relm
"..." - Shadow
"I'm a General, not some love starved twit" - Celes
"Although Edgar showers his attention on the ladies, most are smart enough to pay him no attention. Oh! King Edgar!" - Figaro Castle Inn Attendant

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This was one of the best written and most touching parts of the plot. Both Sabin and Edgar want to be free of the weight and prison of the throne, but they regonize their responcibility to the kingdom, and their father (though the sprites are the same Edgar/king Sabin/body-builder, it is implied that they are both more or less the same. A generic half prince half body-builder sprite for the both of them might have served the story better). Edgar, out of love for his brother, gives up his freedom so as to allow Sabin to live the life he wants (Edgar contents himself with chasing the local flora & fuana). Years later, when they are both established and have come to terms with their new lives, Sabin learns of the double headed coin durring the scene you mentioned. As with a lot of hard times in life, they can laugh about it once enough time has passed. Sabin's feelings would be more of thanks at Edgar doing all the 'work' allowing him to go off and 'play'. I don't see any feelings of having something he didn't want 'stolen' from him.

ok big guy.. take it easy it was just a game.. the plot wasnt that thick my man

Quote (221339 @ 27th May 2006 16:47)

- Sabins house has three beds. Who for, since he lived there alone?

Spoilers

Actually, that's Duncan's House.... I take it u never learned bum rush. You go there and duncan is alive. its his casa not sabin's. Sabin, Duncan, and Vargas all stay there at one point.

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In order to be politically correct, I am no longer a "White Person," I am a Caucasian-American.