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And a few spoilers herein as well I suppose

There are moments in the game, where the FFVI autors seem to have not thought things through. Perhaps I've lost something, perhaps I just didn't understand some parts (and kept not-understanding them over and over each time I have played the game). But sometimes things just don't make sense. Here are few:

- Terra burning 50 magitek armors in 3 minutes. Well this one is stupid. Without an armor on herself, she'd hardly defeat 50 rats at that moment of the game. But we see her doing that mayhem in a magitek armor herself - but then again what's so impressive about that?

- The whole Tritoch and Narshe thing. It is said, that he remained hidden untill the events just before we enter Narshe for the first time. But Narshe guards managed not only to seal it with a gate, but also bring Whelk arround. Ok, let's say they were pretty fast with all that. But why does Arvis afterwards say, that "everybody in Narshe is anxious to see the Esper" as if nobody saw it earlier?

- Women in Figaro castle. Yeah, like NO WOMAN IN THE WORLD would like to go to bed with a young and handsome king. They all are "too smart for that". Yeah, right

- Sabins house has three beds. Who for, since he lived there alone?

- Why does Cyan point at the Phantom Forest and Barren Falls as the only rout to Narshe? Both don't seem as especially friendly places, and I doubt, that Doma people tend to choose jumping down a waterfall as any means of transportation.

- The poison poured into the water by Kefka instantly kills everyone, except for Cyan and the soldier standing besides him. I presume that it's because they stand to high for the poison to reach them - but a few seconds later the go down to the castle and still are not affected. Cyan doesn't even have a poisoned status.

- Edgar & Sabin. At first I understood that they settled the thing with a plain coin toss, Sabin had won and opted for freedom, leaving Edgar as king. But some time later we see, that Celes takes a two-headed coin from Edgar when persuading Setzer - the same coin (as Sabin notices). So Edgar cheated Sabin out of the throne, though Sabin doesn't even mind for a second. I know he never wanted to be king, but still - what Edgar did was at least nasty.

- Locke keeps his deceased girlfriends corpse in a basement. I know how it turns out, but I always found it extremely revolting.

- Celes is a general, a warrior, a soldier. A very serious general at that. She probably had never, ever sand a single song in her whole life. And within 5 seconds she manages to sing like the best opera singer available, no training, no nothing. Stupid.

- This one is characteristical for all FF parts: Ramuh asks our team, to free hist mates from the Imperial Research Facility. So: 6 heroes are to go to the capital of the country they are at war with, enter their biggest and best guarded facility and sabotage the project wich is vital for this countriy domination. Sure, it's possible. But at least they could have some actuall plan how to do it... pity, cause they practically waltz inside, trash everything and leave almost unbothered (well... bothered, but hey - this is the most powerfull country in the world! It could and should do better!)

- Why the hell does Locke doubt in Celes? Where and when does she do anything, that could make him doubt her?

These are just a few. There are more (though I have to walk the dog now, so I'll leave the rest for now ). Any other suchlikes? Or perhaps you can explain those listed above? :]

This post has been edited by 221339 on 27th May 2006 21:06

The Terra thing...I think she went into somekind of berserk esper rage and fried em...but yeah it's not really explained.

As far as Sabin's house. Easy, Duncan, Vargas and Sabin stayed there when they trained, at least that's what I think anyway.

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I was a soldier, now I just play one in video games.

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Terra burning 50 magitek armors in 3 minutes. Well this one is stupid. Without an armor on herself, she'd hardly defeat 50 rats at that moment of the game. But we see her doing that mayhem

It's the whole 'supressed power' thing. While concious, she doesn't know how to access her 'full potencial,' but Kefka was able to bring it to the surface with the slave crown. The whole 'buried/supressed power' thing may be overused, but I never saw it as a plot hole.

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Women in Figaro castle. Yeah, like NO WOMAN IN THE WORLD would like to go to bed with a young and handsome king. They all are "too smart for that". Yeah, right

They all seem to have grown up around him. It'd be like dating a cousin. That, and he's probably already dated or tried to date each of them by the time you meet him. He's simply exhausted his options within the castle.

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- Edgar & Sabin. At first I understood that they settled the thing with a plain coin toss, Sabin had won and opted for freedom, leaving Edgar as king. But some time later we see, that Celes takes a two-headed coin from Edgar when persuading Setzer - the same coin (as Sabin notices). So Edgar cheated Sabin out of the throne, though Sabin doesn't even mind for a second. I know he never wanted to be king, but still - what Edgar did was at least nasty.

This was one of the best written and most touching parts of the plot. Both Sabin and Edgar want to be free of the weight and prison of the throne, but they regonize their responcibility to the kingdom, and their father (though the sprites are the same Edgar/king Sabin/body-builder, it is implied that they are both more or less the same. A generic half prince half body-builder sprite for the both of them might have served the story better). Edgar, out of love for his brother, gives up his freedom so as to allow Sabin to live the life he wants (Edgar contents himself with chasing the local flora & fuana). Years later, when they are both established and have come to terms with their new lives, Sabin learns of the double headed coin durring the scene you mentioned. As with a lot of hard times in life, they can laugh about it once enough time has passed. Sabin's feelings would be more of thanks at Edgar doing all the 'work' allowing him to go off and 'play'. I don't see any feelings of having something he didn't want 'stolen' from him.

This post has been edited by Iain Peregrine on 27th May 2006 21:30

Do most of these things really matter? It is, after all, a game, and a piece of fiction. It doesn't need to conform to real life. This isn't any different then the other complaints about the modern games, or the other 'plot-holes'. But I suppose some would care about these things at least.

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OSonic Rave
/ \Last Arcanum
[ ]Strike Raid
XRagnarok

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- Terra burning 50 magitek armors in 3 minutes. Well this one is stupid. Without an armor on herself, she'd hardly defeat 50 rats at that moment of the game. But we see her doing that mayhem in a magitek armor herself - but then again what's so impressive about that?

Well first of all this isn't a fact, it's hearsay. Vicks 'heard' that she killed a bunch of Magitek Armored soldiers. It's likely it was just exaggeration.

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- The whole Tritoch and Narshe thing. It is said, that he remained hidden untill the events just before we enter Narshe for the first time. But Narshe guards managed not only to seal it with a gate, but also bring Whelk arround. Ok, let's say they were pretty fast with all that. But why does Arvis afterwards say, that "everybody in Narshe is anxious to see the Esper" as if nobody saw it earlier?

This is likely a mistranslation, since Arvis is responding to Banon's statement that they can reach out to the Esper. Either that or it's some colloquial way of saying "we want to meet the Esper when it's not encased in a block of ice and asleep for the past thousand years".

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- Women in Figaro castle. Yeah, like NO WOMAN IN THE WORLD would like to go to bed with a young and handsome king. They all are "too smart for that". Yeah, right

And if you had your heart broken by a flirtatious king, would this be well known? There are plenty of reasons why you shouldn't take this statement at face value.

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- Sabins house has three beds. Who for, since he lived there alone?

lol. Game mechanics are funny.

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- Why does Cyan point at the Phantom Forest and Barren Falls as the only rout to Narshe? Both don't seem as especially friendly places, and I doubt, that Doma people tend to choose jumping down a waterfall as any means of transportation.

This is likely due to the Imperial forces blockading all other routes out of the Kingdom. The war was still raging at this time and it's not out of the question that Imperial soldiers control all the harbors, rivers, and mountain passes.

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- The poison poured into the water by Kefka instantly kills everyone, except for Cyan and the soldier standing besides him. I presume that it's because they stand to high for the poison to reach them - but a few seconds later the go down to the castle and still are not affected. Cyan doesn't even have a poisoned status.

Game mechanics and speeding up the event so that it waste too much time? Who knows... perhaps Kefka has some magical posion that is both directional and highly lethal on NPCs. Not totally impossible for a Magitek Knight.

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- Edgar & Sabin. At first I understood that they settled the thing with a plain coin toss, Sabin had won and opted for freedom, leaving Edgar as king. But some time later we see, that Celes takes a two-headed coin from Edgar when persuading Setzer - the same coin (as Sabin notices). So Edgar cheated Sabin out of the throne, though Sabin doesn't even mind for a second. I know he never wanted to be king, but still - what Edgar did was at least nasty.

Iain Peregrine's response is much superior to my original one.

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- Locke keeps his deceased girlfriends corpse in a basement. I know how it turns out, but I always found it extremely revolting.

She's in suspended animation due to some strange herbs. That's like life support for coma victims. Seems pretty caring to me.

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- Celes is a general, a warrior, a soldier. A very serious general at that. She probably had never, ever sand a single song in her whole life. And within 5 seconds she manages to sing like the best opera singer available, no training, no nothing. Stupid.

Yeah.

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- This one is characteristical for all FF parts: Ramuh asks our team, to free hist mates from the Imperial Research Facility. So: 6 heroes are to go to the capital of the country they are at war with, enter their biggest and best guarded facility and sabotage the project wich is vital for this countriy domination. Sure, it's possible. But at least they could have some actuall plan how to do it... pity, cause they practically waltz inside, trash everything and leave almost unbothered (well... bothered, but hey - this is the most powerfull country in the world! It could and should do better!)

In our current world, with technology superior in every sense to the Imperial war machine of FF6, we are unable to prevent small numbers of people entering countries. To say that a superpower without even radios could coordinate their forces to prevent an insignificant number of the enemy into the borders is stretching credibility. The Imperial's rate of response to sabotage within the Magitek Factory was rather pathetic though. Of course, the Imperials are regularly overconfident, so chock one up to cliched bag guys.

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- Why the hell does Locke doubt in Celes? Where and when does she do anything, that could make him doubt her?

Locke isn't exactly the most balanced or logical individual...

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

Isn't the quote that Terra fried "soldiers", not "magitek armoured soldiers"? I always understood it that she was in magitek and the victims were all, well, not in magitek. A normal soldier in magitek could do okay, like Biggs and Wedge, but when Terra's in magitek at the start, she has a lot more abilities with it.

As for Sabin's house, I don't think that was his house. I thought that was an abandoned cabin that he had stayed at for a while.

I agree with the point about Celes that it's a little contrived, even if singing does happen to be one of her few talents that aren't related to being a general and a warrior. I loved that scene so much that I never thought about it.

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

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Terra burning 50 magitek armors in 3 minutes.

Gameplay schematics differ from scenario schematics. This is well-known, and is why Aeris dies from a puny stab wound while Cloud can take on a hail of bullets in the opening and live.

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But Narshe guards managed not only to seal it with a gate, but also bring Whelk arround.

A crude wooden gate that breaks down after being rammed once? Seems all like a major rush job to me.

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Yeah, like NO WOMAN IN THE WORLD would like to go to bed with a young and handsome king. They all are "too smart for that". Yeah, right

Women are not all shallow, nor are they objects for sexual gratification.

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Sabins house has three beds. Who for, since he lived there alone?

My appartment has two couches. Who for, since I live there alone?

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Why does Cyan point at the Phantom Forest and Barren Falls as the only rout to Narshe?

The Empire is on the move and taking over land in that region. They had an entire sub-plot based around Doma being taken over, in fact.

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The poison poured into the water by Kefka instantly kills everyone, except for Cyan and the soldier standing besides him.

There's a major flaw in your thinking: Kefka's pouring that stuff pure into the river. If it were odor-based, he'd be deader than any of them.

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Edgar & Sabin

This is an illogical thing? Life must be pretty illogical, as well as harsh, at times then.

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Locke keeps his deceased girlfriends corpse in a basement. I know how it turns out

She's being kept in suspended animation, not decomposing like some maggot-eaten zombie. You're pretty much answered your question with that second sentence, and this isn't an illogical thing in the game.

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Celes is a general, a warrior, a soldier (...) She probably had never, ever sand a single song in her whole life

Now who's being illogical? I'm a programmer. You'd think I've never gone out to a bar to shoot some pool, am single, and either morbidly obese or terrifyingly skinny, right? Must be, seeing as I'm a programmer.

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Why the hell does Locke doubt in Celes? Where and when does she do anything, that could make him doubt her?

I agree man, cuz like... when you care about someone, a'aight? Yeah, when you care about someone? You like... trust them to the ends of the earth and all? And like... all rationality vanishes cuz that's how it has to be, a'aight? So when you're doing this big-ass coup against an evil empire, like, this love thing should get in the way of it, right? Oh, wait, maybe the characters were just being realistic and with emotional depth... Yeah, forget what I said, that's probably it. >.>

Now if we were to take FF8's storyline...

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

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- The poison poured into the water by Kefka instantly kills everyone, except for Cyan and the soldier standing besides him. I presume that it's because they stand to high for the poison to reach them - but a few seconds later the go down to the castle and still are not affected. Cyan doesn't even have a poisoned status.

I always took it that the poison only affected those who drank the water. it doesn't mkae sense in the real world, but it's the best explanation i could think of for why cyan and that other guy didn't die.


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ADAEAFADAEAFAGAEAFAGAAAFAGAAABbAGAAAFAGAEAFADAEA
C#ADAAABbGAAAFAGAEAFADAEAC#AFADAEAC#ADAAABbAGAA
AEAFADAGAEAFADAEAC#AD

Actually, that makes perfect sense to me.

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OSonic Rave
/ \Last Arcanum
[ ]Strike Raid
XRagnarok

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This was one of the best written and most touching parts of the plot. Both Sabin and Edgar want to be free of the weight and prison of the throne, but they regonize their responcibility to the kingdom, and their father (though the sprites are the same Edgar/king Sabin/body-builder, it is implied that they are both more or less the same. A generic half prince half body-builder sprite for the both of them might have served the story better). Edgar, out of love for his brother, gives up his freedom so as to allow Sabin to live the life he wants (Edgar contents himself with chasing the local flora & fuana). Years later, when they are both established and have come to terms with their new lives, Sabin learns of the double headed coin durring the scene you mentioned. As with a lot of hard times in life, they can laugh about it once enough time has passed. Sabin's feelings would be more of thanks at Edgar doing all the 'work' allowing him to go off and 'play'. I don't see any feelings of having something he didn't want 'stolen' from him.

I don't want to be misunderstood - it is one of my favorite parts of the plot, the whole brothers stuff and everything, especially the scene in Figaro Castle (first time Sabin visits Figaro Castle, at night). It's just that well... Edgar did cheat on him. I know that Sabin probably would want this, but then again why the coin tossing (apart from making it one of the best scenes in FFVI ;])?

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This is likely due to the Imperial forces blockading all other routes out of the Kingdom. The war was still raging at this time and it's not out of the question that Imperial soldiers control all the harbors, rivers, and mountain passes.

But you've seen the route. A haunted forest and a waterfall. AND it's in the opposite direction than Narshe. That's probably the LAST route I would point. I'd rather suggest something like "hijack an imperial boat" or whatever. Not: go to a forest noone has ever came back from and afterwards jump down a waterfall.

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Game mechanics and speeding up the event so that it waste too much time? Who knows... perhaps Kefka has some magical posion that is both directional and highly lethal on NPCs. Not totally impossible for a Magitek Knight.

But would it hurt to put Cyan into a poisoned state? :]

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She's in suspended animation due to some strange herbs. That's like life support for coma victims. Seems pretty caring to me.

It's clearly stated, that she's dead. Not even in a wounded state. Dead dead. Dead like Leo. The herbs prevent her corpse from rotting away. But she's goddamn dead, and he keeps her in a bed in a basement and comes from time to time, to watch her (and who knows what else). Locke's a sick person.

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Locke isn't exactly the most balanced or logical individual...

So very true.

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Do most of these things really matter? It is, after all, a game, and a piece of fiction. It doesn't need to conform to real life. This isn't any different then the other complaints about the modern games, or the other 'plot-holes'. But I suppose some would care about these things at least.

No, it doesn't matter at all :] It's just for plain fun of finding and trying to explain such things. Or just finding them.

Like for example: how the hell can a bird nurse anyone to health? (the scene when Celes drops herself down a cliff).

Or why does Celes want to follow THAT particular bird (the one, that leads to Cyan). As we know from the monsters running arround the place - there are birds here and there. It's not the only bird arround.

Edit:

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Gameplay schematics differ from scenario schematics. This is well-known, and is why Aeris dies from a puny stab wound while Cloud can take on a hail of bullets in the opening and live.

Look, I KNOW that :] I'm just trying to point out such sillyness. It's probably a fan thing

Oh, and btw. - it's true, they were "only" soldiers. But still - I find nothing impressive in that, since she had magitek armor and they hadn't.

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A crude wooden gate that breaks down after being rammed once? Seems all like a major rush job to me.

This wasn't the issue. It's rather the fact, that Narshe people can't decide weather they know about the esper or not.

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Women are not all shallow, nor are they objects for sexual gratification.

The history of courts worldwide proves, that kings have few problems in satisfying such needs

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There's a major flaw in your thinking: Kefka's pouring that stuff pure into the river. If it were odor-based, he'd be deader than any of them.

Well then how does it work? If it's about drinking (as suggested) - how come everybody dies the same moment (just as the water turns purple). I still suppose it WAS odor-based.

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She's being kept in suspended animation, not decomposing like some maggot-eaten zombie. You're pretty much answered your question with that second sentence, and this isn't an illogical thing in the game.

Well... this is a tough one. Technically - he could have heard rummors etc. But I still can't help myself thinking, that it's pretty disgusting - keeping a dead corpse for whatever purposes other than medical/experimental/whatever.

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Now who's being illogical?  I'm a programmer. You'd think I've never gone out to a bar to shoot some pool, am single, and either morbidly obese or terrifyingly skinny, right? Must be, seeing as I'm a programmer.

Well, come on! I did exaggerate about that she never sang a song (though I wouldn't be surprised, she doesn's seem like a person, who'd do something like that ), but how many people do you know, who could sing OPERA without any training whatsoever?

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I agree man, cuz like... when you care about someone, a'aight? Yeah, when you care about someone? You like... trust them to the ends of the earth and all? And like... all rationality vanishes cuz that's how it has to be, a'aight? So when you're doing this big-ass coup against an evil empire, like, this love thing should get in the way of it, right? Oh, wait, maybe the characters were just being realistic and with emotional depth... Yeah, forget what I said, that's probably it. >.>

Now wait a minute. I suppose he could have a second of doubt the moment when Kefka started insisting, that it was all Celes's plan. But she had saved their arse then, saying stuff like "maybe now you'll believe me" and so on. And, apart from what Kefka said, she didn't actually do anything, to make anyone think she has tricked anyone.

This post has been edited by 221339 on 28th May 2006 09:26

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I know that Sabin probably would want this, but then again why the coin tossing...?

Because Sabin felt the same sense of responcibility as Edgar. He would never had let Edgar 'do all the work' if he didn't think it was fair (though a coin toss is a bit of a stretch). Sometimes pride and self respect can keep someone from accepting charity; it's easier to be beset by adversity knowing that you're strong than to be comfortable and know that you're weak. Edgar knew this about Sabin, and devised the coin trick. (On a side note, wisdom is the thing that sees justice and mercy together. In demonstrating wisdom in this scene, the writers show that Edgar has the wisdom to be a good king.)

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There's a major flaw in your thinking: Kefka's pouring that stuff pure into the river. If it were odor-based, he'd be deader than any of them.

Well then how does it work? If it's about drinking (as suggested) - how come everybody dies the same moment (just as the water turns purple). I still suppose it WAS odor-based.

I've always felt that the timescale is definitely not the one displayed. Notice that you cut to the scene over at Doma--you could also have kinda gone back in time to see all that. And just because the water turns purple and people start dying immediately doesn't mean that's what would "actually" have happened.

Games don't quite portray anything too realistically. I know they're working on that, with the oh-so-nearly-photorealistic graphics these days, but still, you can't really duplicate real life or a complex, imagined variation of it.

What likely happened was that Kefka poisoned the water supply during, say, meal hours, and people were drinking the water, but Cyan was busy with, say, training. Kefka used a potent poison with a short residence time before killing the victim, hence people dropping dead left and right. Cyan then gets word of this, and sees it happening, and then the rest of the plot continues.

I mean, like, you really think the plot of FFVI happens in 40 or so hours (plus one year between the worlds)?

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On the Cyan not dying: Well, it wasn't that Cyan lived, it was that someone lived. In most poisonings/flus/colds/epidemics, at least one person lived. This time, the one who lived was patriotic and wanted to take down the empire. Hey, someone had to. Plus, how lame would it be if the local drunk had been the only survivor? He wouldn't have drank the water, so it'd be logical- actually, that could've been funny, but let's not delve into that.

Re: Coin toss.
They'd probably argued over who'd do what for so long, they were willing to settle it with anything. A game of cards, rock paper scissors, anything. They were young, and Edgar didn't mind taking the throne so Sabin could have his freedom.

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You're telling me that there's no hope.

I'm telling you you're wrong.

As to the beds-

Vargas, Duncan, Sabin.

1 2 3


Clearly it is Duncan's training cabin. Hence why he is there in the WoR.

This post has been edited by MogMaster on 28th May 2006 06:19

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

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That's probably the LAST route I would point.

In retrospect, that's probably the LAST route available to them.

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But would it hurt to put Cyan into a poisoned state? :]

Considering that seemingly healthy people ended up dropping like flies moments after the poison's effects, or at best being in such bad shape they could barely speak, it should be obvious this isn't the kind of poison you'd get from being bitten by a Narshe Guard.

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Locke's a sick person.

Who are you to judge? Necrophiles are people too, damn it. There's nothing wrong with what they do! Nohing! It's just... different. And it's no reason to stop talking to your only son for six years because you can't cope with it. MOM, WHY WON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? :_: ...Ahem.

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Like for example: how the hell can a bird nurse anyone to health?

Don't be silly. It obviously knew cure and/or had a potion in its inventory.

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(just as the water turns purple).

It seems more of a "oh hey, we just noticed: the water's purple!" thing IMO than it turning purple all of a suddent. Probably just the game's way of showing that nobody had outright noticed at the time.

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But I still can't help myself thinking, that it's pretty disgusting - keeping a dead corpse for whatever purposes other than medical/experimental/whatever.

:_:

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how many people do you know, who could sing OPERA without any training whatsoever?

Actually, I have a friend from high school who practically could. But that aside, it's not as though we know anything about Celes, and you can't judge a book by its cover. Celes may be a general, but she acts very vulnerable often in the game and hardly seems the brutish type (other than rumors of her torching Maranda or something like that.) A job really is just a job.

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And, apart from what Kefka said, she didn't actually do anything, to make anyone think she has tricked anyone.

She stabbed Kefka! Are you going to tell me that's not trickery? I mean, seriously, if I were Kefka I'd totally be pissed at her. I can't blame Locke for doubting her. :/ Now if she'd have stabbed, say, Relm, whom nobody really cares about anyway, things would've been just fine and dandy.

'Sides, Celes never denied having dropped a few hints as to the party's plans after Kefka accused her of it, and up until the stabbing scene she hardly seems confused about what he's talking about, and he doesn't seem to be ranting nonsense either.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

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Sabins house has three beds. Who for, since he lived there alone?

The cabin he was staying in was where he trained with his master. The three beds would have been Sabin's, his Master's, and Vagas'. Sabin lived alone there because his master was killed, and Vagas had fled after killing (cough) his father.

Edit: MogMaster was in before me. >> I missed that post. Sorreh.

This post has been edited by Mu the Squirrel on 28th May 2006 11:59

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The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

- Terra burning 50 magitek armors in 3 minutes.

A: Wasn't Magitek Armor, 50 soldiers. Terra has fire. She's part esper. Seems very logical she could of done that. Also, it could just be rumor from Vicks. Don't forget, at the end of the game, you can kill three goddesses with nothing more than swords and fireballs. Why can't mere mortals die from being burned alive?

- The whole Tritoch and Narshe thing

A: I'd like to know why that soldier locked himself inside of the gate with a giant snail. Better yet, how'd they tame it? And apparently the empire knew about Whelk before Vicks and Wedge came since they were debriefed about it. A gate can be created in about 5 to 10 minutes, it was only a stack of wood around the cave entrance from what I've seen. They had plenty of time to throw the snail in there, too... granted it isn't as slow as normal snails. Hey, maybe it was already in there and so was the gate...?

Women in Figaro castle.

A: I'm assuming that the women in Figaro castle aren't a bunch of sleeze bags. And its not like they modeled the game after present day times where women can do that sorta thing in a more socially acceptable standard. Maybe Edgar just plain sucks with the flirting, too? I haven't seen him get anything but the cold shoulder...


- Sabins house has three beds. Who for, since he lived there alone?

A: Vargas and his mentor both also lived with him, I believe. Mind you, Vargas and his mentor had a house in South Figaro, I don't suppose a cottage out in the middle of nowhere for training purposes would be above him... Also, in WoR, his mentor can be found in that house, instead of home with his wife. Although I'm not too sure why he took the death of his son so well...


- Why does Cyan point at the Phantom Forest and Barren Falls as the only rout to Narshe?

This I don't understand, since he didn't know how to get through the Serpent Trench. Also, who the hell would do that in the first place? I agree with you 100% on this one.


- The poison poured into the water by Kefka instantly kills everyone, except for Cyan and the soldier standing besides him.

A: The Poison is _NOT_ odor based. Why do you think this? The people of Doma apparently drank the water (Depsite the fact that it was purple), and died a bit afterwards (since poison should take time to kill). Apparently Cyan and his soldier buddy weren't very thirsty. I'd like to know what happened to his buddy, though.

- Edgar & Sabin.

A: Sabin didn't feel cheated. He didn't want the throne. He wouldn't be angry.

- Locke keeps his deceased girlfriends corpse in a basement.

A: Is there anything wrong with that...? ;D

- Celes is a general, a warrior, a soldier.

A: Soldiers can't sing, now? In addition, she can fling ice spells every which way and heal grevious wounds, why in the world can't she 'magically' learn to sing? Perhaps she got a bit of the Siren's abilities...?

- This one is characteristical for all FF parts:

A: Ramuh gave our characters their powers in hopes that they would strengthen the group to defeat the people in the Magitek Factory. And you did sort of cut through about 50 of their men. Don't forget, your characters are supposed to be the finest warriors in the entire world, a bunch of low class soldiers and shody machines shouldn't be able to stop them. In addition, Kefka does come down to personally stop you, and almost succeeds, and then he sends the cranes after you. An attempt was made, a close one, but unsuccesful.

Why the hell does Locke doubt in Celes?

A: Because Kefka tells him that Celes was a traitor...? Locke also keeps his dead girlfriend in a basement. And steals clothes off of men.

I'd like to know other things that are real plot holes:
Where'd Banon go?
Where'd Arvis go?
How did they move a 1 ton block of ice Esper to the top of a mountain without them gettin zapped like Vicks and Wedge?
How did Ultros get that 1 ton block to the rafters and then suddenly learn he isn't able to move it?
There are actual plot holes, most of what you listed were just things that you didn't fully understand.

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"A little tight, but the price was right" - Locke
"Oh, what a Fuddy Duddy" - Relm
"..." - Shadow
"I'm a General, not some love starved twit" - Celes
"Although Edgar showers his attention on the ladies, most are smart enough to pay him no attention. Oh! King Edgar!" - Figaro Castle Inn Attendant

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Why the hell does Locke doubt in Celes?

You know, the game never ''really'' proves she wasn't originally a set up who then chose to betray the Empire after travelling with you a bit. =P

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How did they move a 1 ton block of ice Esper to the top of a mountain without them gettin zapped like Vicks and Wedge?

The Esper reacted to Terra, not the soldiers themselves. Chances are it telepathically knew what the beef was with the mind control and general naughtiness.

And as for Cyan not dying, as said, it was a poison. And he happened to not drink it. Think of it like a movie where everyone drinks the poison but the hero, who then wants revenge.

This post has been edited by Mu the Squirrel on 28th May 2006 15:45

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The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

Nope. I've checked it out. The water's clean when we see Cyan on the tower, but just after the soldiers fall down it turns purple. I call that odor based They never even had a chance to drink it.

Well... Arvis and Banon probably had simply died. Apart from the team, they were the closest thing to opposition against Kefka, so I suppose he hunt them down at some point.

But another question - why does the team leave Cid on the island (when and if he survives of course). I mean - it's pretty nasty down there, and he's all alone with nothing else to eat but fish, while our team practicly eats gold for dinner. Even if they didn't want him onboard, they could at least take him to Albrook - a stone throw away for the airship.

And about the route to Narshe proposed by Cyan - I can think of 100 better ways of getting there, than going through a haunted forrest and afterwards jumping down a friggin waterfall. Stealing a boat, building a raft, hell, even swimming there.Dressing up as soldiers and doing... well... something. And, as stated before - Cyans route takes to Mobliz, not to Narshe, he couldn't have known about Serpent Trench.

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Maybe Edgar just plain sucks with the flirting, too?

Well this one is a pretty good explanation, true.

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Who are you to judge? Necrophiles are people too, damn it. There's nothing wrong with what they do! Nohing!

Oh well, seems I'm a necrofobe.

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and hardly seems the brutish type

She seemed quite cold hearted and brutish to me in the scenes and rumors about her before she met Locke (scorching Maranda, doing nasty stuff as Cid points in the Research Facility).

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I'd like to know other things that are real plot holes:
Where'd Banon go?
Where'd Arvis go?
How did they move a 1 ton block of ice Esper to the top of a mountain without them gettin zapped like Vicks and Wedge?
How did Ultros get that 1 ton block to the rafters and then suddenly learn he isn't able to move it?
There are actual plot holes, most of what you listed were just things that you didn't fully understand.

Sorry mate, you might want to look up the definition of plot hole. A plot hole is a hole in the plot (quite simply...) That is, it's an inconsistency in the storyline, not an unexplained event that doesn't have a direct impact on the story.

If, say, Espers had vanished in the WoB -> WoR conversion, and it was clear they really were gone, but suddently the game turns Terra into an Esper to fight Phunbaba, then that would be a plot hole because it goes against the storyline's logic.

If a character is removed from the storyline and simply isn't anywhere to be found anymore without causing any inconsistencies, that's not a plot hole. The storyline doesn't end up broken over it. It just means the character no longer plays a part in things - if a character stops appearing onscreen in a movie during the second half, it doesn't mean anything. Like 221339 suggested, they could simply've died during the year Celes has been out of it.

Mu covered the Esper bit (though if you want to be picky about it, nothing explicitely explains this in-game.) As for the 1 ton block, it could've already been there, perhaps as a weight to raise the curtains or to make an actor "fly" as a counter-weight attached to a rope. Admittedly, 1 ton is quite a bit for something like this.

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The water's clean when we see Cyan on the tower, but just after the soldiers fall down it turns purple

I'm wondering if you have anything to say about my post on this.

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She seemed quite cold hearted and brutish to me in the scenes and rumors about her before she met Locke

Hitler was rumored to be a vegetarian. He was against smoking, and even rewarded his closer associates who quitted smoking. He enjoyed music (and debating popular music with others.) Quite unseeming traits for a man who's responsible for what's arguably the most awful slaughter in history.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Elena99 @ 27th May 2006 14:01)

Isn't the quote that Terra fried "soldiers", not "magitek armoured soldiers"? I always understood it that she was in magitek and the victims were all, well, not in magitek. A normal soldier in magitek could do okay, like Biggs and Wedge, but when Terra's in magitek at the start, she has a lot more abilities with it.

FYI:

Quote (FF6)

VICKS: And this woman, this...sorcerer.  Why's she here?  I heard she fried 50 of our Magitek Armored soldiers in under 3 minutes.

Not that it matters due to an unshielded cockpit and numerous situations that could have given her the upperhand...

Quote (221339 @ 27th May 2006 14:28)

It's clearly stated, that she's dead. Not even in a wounded state.  Dead dead. Dead like Leo. The herbs prevent her corpse from rotting away. But she's goddamn dead, and he keeps her in a bed in a basement and comes from time to time, to watch her (and who knows what else). Locke's a sick person.

Quote (FF6)

(Man) I used some herbs to put her into suspended animation.  She won't age a day!  Uwaa, ha!  That's what you wanted, right?  Had to use my herbs, I did!

Suspended animation. Aging. While the Old Man isn't exactly the most sane, it's assumed that Locke trusts and believes the Old Man's opinion on these things: Rachel is comatose but alive.

Quote (221339 @ 29th May 2006 13:30)

And about the route to Narshe proposed by Cyan - I can think of 100 better ways of getting there, than going through a haunted forrest and afterwards jumping down a friggin waterfall. Stealing a boat, building a raft, hell, even swimming there.Dressing up as soldiers and doing... well... something. And, as stated before - Cyans route takes to Mobliz, not to Narshe, he couldn't have known about Serpent Trench.

Who says either man had the ability to sail and navigate a ship? To build a raft capable ocean-travel? Swim cross-continent? To not get killed by the vast-Imperial manpower necessary to crush and occupy Doma?

An alledgedly haunted forest and a jump into the waterfall is nothing compared to the dangers of everything else. But let's take a couple steps back. Cyan only states "Narshe, eh? Only one route, through the forest to the south." They only take the jump down Barren Falls and thus to a neutral town because of persuit.

Quote (FF6)

SABIN: And the Empire's right on our tails.
CYAN: If we can slip through the Veldt, we can reach the town of Mobliz, to the east...

He never says "this is plan, we're going to go across an entire continent and in the opposite direction to get to Narshe". It seems like they were avoiding persuit and ended up in Mobliz. You seem to think they should just face the Imperials, steal a boat and beat down their enemies. The plot implies that Sabin and Cyan were afraid of the Imperial forces and ran away as fast as they could.

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

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It seems more of a "oh hey, we just noticed: the water's purple!" thing IMO than it turning purple all of a suddent. Probably just the game's way of showing that nobody had outright noticed at the time.

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I'm wondering if you have anything to say about my post on this.

When Cyan stands on the tower, the water is pure and blue. When the first soldier falls it's slightly purple. When we walk out of the castle it's purple like hell. It does change colour during the scene. Besides it seems, that the scenes appear directly one after another (Kefka's order to poison the water -> our chase after Kefka -> the water changing colour while Kefka walks arround the bank (it didn't affect him either, but he was expecting it, so he probably wore Star Pendant or sth ) -> water changing color near the castle). There's just no time for the whole castle (soldiers, civilians, royalty, hostages) to drink the water.

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Hitler was rumored to be a vegetarian. He was against smoking, and even rewarded his closer associates who quitted smoking. He enjoyed music (and debating popular music with others.) Quite unseeming traits for a man who's responsible for what's arguably the most awful slaughter in history.

Point taken, though on the other hand - Hitler was no "real" soldier, if handed a gun he'd probably shoot his leg off. Celes then again was a soldier to the bone, raised as a soldier etc. That off course doesn't disqualify her as a good singer (or even a trained opera one, no matter how impossible I still find it).

But she does say, that she's "a general, not some opera floozy (or whatever the word was)". That doesn't sound like someone, who trains opera singing during her spare time between scorching cities.

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Suspended animation. Aging. While the Old Man isn't exactly the most sane, it's assumed that Locke trusts and believes the Old Man's opinion on these things: Rachel is comatose but alive.

True. But then again, Locke does say something by the lines of "she passed away a year after during an imperial attack". I'm aware of the fact, that my english is far from perfect, but from what I've been told "passed away" = deader than Elvis.

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Who says either man had the ability to sail and navigate a ship? To build a raft capable ocean-travel? Swim cross-continent? To not get killed by the vast-Imperial manpower necessary to crush and occupy Doma?

An alledgedly haunted forest and a jump into the waterfall is nothing compared to the dangers of everything else. But let's take a couple steps back. Cyan only states "Narshe, eh? Only one route, through the forest to the south." They only take the jump down Barren Falls and thus to a neutral town because of persuit.

Quote (FF6)
SABIN: And the Empire's right on our tails.
CYAN: If we can slip through the Veldt, we can reach the town of Mobliz, to the east...
He never says "this is plan, we're going to go across an entire continent and in the opposite direction to get to Narshe". It seems like they were avoiding persuit and ended up in Mobliz. You seem to think they should just face the Imperials, steal a boat and beat down their enemies. The plot implies that Sabin and Cyan were afraid of the Imperial forces and ran away as fast as they could.

If you backtrack the team, you get to this point:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7086/narsherout34av.jpg

You can almost see Nikeah from there. From my short life experience, tackling mountains or trying to swim a few rather short miles still gives more chances of survival than jumping directly down a waterfall.

Oh, and btw:

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4008/narsherout41cj.jpg

Where the hell did the mountains go? The second screen is taken after we obtain full control over the airship. By that time, the mountines are gone and you can easily get from Gau's Father house to Nikeah by foot. What sort of geomancering happened back there?

This post has been edited by 221339 on 29th May 2006 23:09

*shrugs* It's probably just an oversight. It happens. It doesn't have to make complete and perfect sense.



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OSonic Rave
/ \Last Arcanum
[ ]Strike Raid
XRagnarok

There was a landslide, Duddar. When you reach the town for the first time you find this out. There was a landslide and it was cleared. The Trigger is the Serpent Trench Run.

(kind of like the Death Star Trench Run m i rite?)

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Quote (221339 @ 29th May 2006 15:08)

True. But then again, Locke does say something by the lines of "she passed away a year after during an imperial attack". I'm aware of the fact, that my english is far from perfect, but from what I've been told "passed away" = deader than Elvis.

Yeah, I can see your point. However, Locke was telling a story. He also did not want people to know about Rachel (otherwise he wouldn't have snuck around Kohlinghen the way he did). So everything seems to flow fine if you keep his character in mind.

Quote (221339 @ 29th May 2006 15:08)

You can almost see Nikeah from there. From my short life experience, tackling mountains or trying to swim a few rather short miles still gives more chances of survival than jumping directly down a waterfall.

The plot suggests that they run south to escape the Empire's trackers. Cyan, being the character that would know most about this area of the world, decides the best way to do this is to run through the Phantom Forest. They eventually decide jumping Barren Falls is the only way to escape though.

The fact that you can try to walk back to Nikeah is really immaterial. In a dicussion about plot, using game mechanics (map movement) over storyline seems pretty silly.

And thanks to Mogmaster for pointing out the landslide. I had forgotten about that.

Edit

Quote (221339)

Point taken, though on the other hand - Hitler was no "real" soldier, if handed a gun he'd probably shoot his leg off. Celes then again was a soldier to the bone, raised as a soldier etc. That off course doesn't disqualify her as a good singer (or even a trained opera one, no matter how impossible I still find it).

Um, Hitler was a real soldier. He was a messenger on the front lines; a veteran of World War I. He most definitely experienced live fire and was awarded the Iron Cross (FC). He's no sniper, but he can use a gun.

This post has been edited by Elessar on 30th May 2006 04:04

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

Quote (Elessar @ 29th May 2006 19:20)

Quote (Elena99 @ 27th May 2006 14:01)

Isn't the quote that Terra fried "soldiers", not "magitek armoured soldiers"? I always understood it that she was in magitek and the victims were all, well, not in magitek. A normal soldier in magitek could do okay, like Biggs and Wedge, but when Terra's in magitek at the start, she has a lot more abilities with it.

FYI:

Quote (FF6)

VICKS: And this woman, this...sorcerer.  Why's she here?  I heard she fried 50 of our Magitek Armored soldiers in under 3 minutes.

Not that it matters due to an unshielded cockpit and numerous situations that could have given her the upperhand...

Thanks for checking on that. It seems I remembered it in a way that happened to make more sense to me.

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

Some of these are pretty easy

Terra fried a ton of goons? What's to say she wasn't level fifty and a magi-master before she lost her memory?

And Celes's singing? Possibly a hobby from before she joined the army?

Poisen? Who said it was a vapor poisen? Even NPC's must need to drink sometime, since it's unlikely they have plumbing they must use that river as a drinking source

Quote (Dark Paladin Danny @ 31st May 2006 14:25)

And Celes's singing? Possibly a hobby from before she joined the army?

Poisen? Who said it was a vapor poisen? Even NPC's must need to drink sometime, since it's unlikely they have plumbing they must use that river as a drinking source

Celes is only 18, and has been in the army most of her life. I don't think that is enough time to learn professional opera.

And the argument for the latter was that they all "abrubtly" died in an instant. I use quotation marks because I agree with the argument that the scene was just sped up and exaggerated for the sake of time. Though I never did quite understand some of the parts, such as how Cyan and his companion were the only ones unaffected (assuming that it after all wasn't oder-based).
These two are probably the weakest parts of the story, but since they are two of the best scenes in the game, it kinda gets it off easy.

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I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...

Celes singing-
The Esper she was infused with was Sirens sister. That has to make her sing.

Doma Poisoning-
Odor based theory- Cyan had Aeroga cast on him and the soldier next to him incase the Empire shot things at them. And, since Aeroga puts them in a bubble of fresh air, they wouldn't breath the poison.
Non-odor based theory- they weren't thirsty so didn't drink.

Rachel-
Beats me.

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"Some people are examles of stupidity. Others are stupidity itself." -Me

Quote (General Leo @ 1st June 2006 07:48)

Celes singing-
The Esper she was infused with was Sirens sister. That has to make her sing.


Rachel-
Beats me.

What are you talking about? Celes only sung at the Opera so she could get Setzer to appear on the stage and borrow his airship.. If Celes was infused with Siren's "sister", wouldn't she have had the Sing command rather than the Runic command?

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Doma Poisoning-
Odor based theory- Cyan had Aeroga cast on him and the soldier next to him incase the Empire shot things at them. And, since Aeroga puts them in a bubble of fresh air, they wouldn't breath the poison.

ROFL.

This post has been edited by NeoEx-Death on 1st June 2006 19:46