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Did you guys ever notice the beginning of FFVI, where Leo, Kefka and Celes are standing by each other praising Gestahl. (Terra also stands in back). I just noticed it now and it's interesting to see these 3 characters together like this considering so much will change soon.


Check out this screenshot
http://www.cavesofnarshe.com/ff6/screenshots/images/005.jpg


I think they should have made Celes's charachter a little more "devilish" and not so sweet. It's so hard to make a link between her playable charachter and her past. There are a few references that say she was a pretty bad person. She was the one that "torched" Maranda. Also Kefka, after thinking she fooled the returners, told her "that's SO YOU".

This post has been edited by because555 on 18th March 2006 16:27

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I'VE HAD AN ETERNITY TO PONDER THE MEANING OF THINGS. AND NOW I HAVE AN ANSWER...

Well, I think that has to be the case. She has alot to atone for, hence her determination in bringing about the fall of the Empire.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Are you sure? If that is the case, why and how she became a traitor? I thought it was because the empire was evil and bla, bla, bla. Inever came to think that she was evil... but if you prove that point I will be agree...
Hehehe but it's still fun think that she is just a liar bh

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I'm the shadow in the night, I'm the wind that blows in your back, I'm the darkness... More dark than the night, more blak than the darkness, more red tha the blood that flows in the river of chaos and time... I'm the fabulous As15

Yeah, I noticed it the second time playing through. And, I still find it hard to think of Celes as a bad person, for some reason. It's like... she did bad stuff, but because we only ever really see her doing good stuff, so she's a good person. Hm. Chin-scratching stuff.

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'Bastards, we may be, but clever are we.'
Thorn, FFIX

General Chere torched Maranda.
No where in the game has this statement from Cyan been disputed. Kefka's statements can be taken as him acting/lying for his own benefit. But the fact that Celes never refutes the first statement suggests quite the list of crimes. This kind of stuff should have been touched on in the WoR, but sadly that was not to be.

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

Maybe she was thinking that her actions were for good...
Like soilders of a big country thinking they are saving people of other country whe the "Empire" just wants to take a beneffit of that piece of earth

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I'm the shadow in the night, I'm the wind that blows in your back, I'm the darkness... More dark than the night, more blak than the darkness, more red tha the blood that flows in the river of chaos and time... I'm the fabulous As15

Maybe the specifics were lost in the translation, or there were some cutscenes taken out to make deadlines
all i know is celes was in repent for her previous actions

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"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"

Quote (Cloud_Strife510 @ 19th March 2006 14:57)

all i know is celes was in repent for her previous actions

That's my point... so she doesn't seem like an evil character

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I'm the shadow in the night, I'm the wind that blows in your back, I'm the darkness... More dark than the night, more blak than the darkness, more red tha the blood that flows in the river of chaos and time... I'm the fabulous As15

I was playing the translation of the japanese FFVI and she doesn't seem very sweet. She curses like heck...

Quote (finalfantasygirl @ 19th March 2006 19:41)

I was playing the translation of the japanese FFVI and she doesn't seem very sweet. She curses like heck...

Not all fan translations are 100 % accurate

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OSonic Rave
/ \Last Arcanum
[ ]Strike Raid
XRagnarok

She's detatched, so she's not really "Sweet." She keeps aloof and distant, which might or might not the key- but not really sweet! Sweet would be:

Edgar: Don't think Locke's falling in love with you!
Celes: Oh, dear! The thought never even crossed my mind, thanks very much for warning me!

Not the famous "Love-starved twit" line.

Edit

And I definitely noticed those three up there at some point in my life. >.>

This post has been edited by RelmArrowney on 20th March 2006 06:37

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You're telling me that there's no hope.

I'm telling you you're wrong.

Quote (Zeromus_X @ 19th March 2006 21:09)

Quote (finalfantasygirl @ 19th March 2006 19:41)

I was playing the translation of the japanese FFVI and she doesn't seem very sweet. She curses like heck...

Not all fan translations are 100 % accurate

To elaborate on what Zeromus_X stated: The fan translation, at least the only one I know of, exaggerates quite a bit when it comes to swearing. In actuality, there's not that much foul language in the Japanese script, and what there is doesn't really translate to the severity of what the RPGOne retranslation includes in places.

Still, despite her words Celes always came off as a "good" person who regretted her actions in my opinion, and there's certainly nothing lost in translation (from what I recall) that would mask her past as an evildoer - or whatever - in the Empire. It's possible she was a cheat and a liar just as well, especially when it came to talks of negotiations with other nations and whatnot; seems that kinda backstabbing is what Gestahl's Empire is all about. After all, her fellow officiers would be aware of what kinda things she did back then, so perhaps betraying others for Imperial gain is, or rather, was "SO [HER]!"

Concerning deleted scenes touching on her past, I don't believe there are any; the only one(s?) known of that was completely taken out (i.e, not just dummied out) involved Strago and Shadow.

Course, it's never revealed just who commanded the assault on Tzen and murdered the royal family therein. I never really assumed it could've been Celes, but ya never know...

As for the question regarding Celes' treachery, I always figured she was locked up for exposing/trying to expose Kefka's plan (and likely Gestahl's, who probably masterminded it) to poison Doma. She does mention it to the soldiers guarding her as if she's passionately urgent 'bout getting it out in the open...

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Words of Wisdom:

If something can go wrong, it will.

If anything simply cannot go wrong, it will anyway.

If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong. - Murphy’s Law

Boing! Zoom! - Mr. Saturn

But what makes torching a town better than poisoning it? I guess the poison is "dirtier" play, but she still did some bad things. Maybe the GBA version will shed some light, like it did for FFIV.

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Dead Winter. A nice comic.

What did she do that made her a traitor? Why did she do it ? If you work for any empire as a general usually you know how cruel they are and you won't turn traitor unless it's for a very good reason hopefully barrylocke has right and in the GBA version we will find out wath happend.

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They may be monsters, but they're sea monsters. What're they gonna do? Flop around on deck and suffocate at us threateningly?

Quote (Barrylocke @ 20th March 2006 05:00)

But what makes torching a town better than poisoning it? I guess the poison is "dirtier" play, but she still did some bad things. Maybe the GBA version will shed some light, like it did for FFIV.

Very little. However, 'torching' a city can be seen as a measure taken to destroy an organized counterattack by the citzenry during a battle. Since I don't recall any specifics or details given aside from that one line, we can assume the best of Celes.

That is, that she killed innocents and soldiers alike during a battle. War-crime? Perhaps.

Poison is nothing short of mass-murder. It's definitely a war-crime.

This post has been edited by Elessar on 20th March 2006 18:07

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

It just seems that Celes fit the role of Maria much better then she fit the role of a fighter...



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I'VE HAD AN ETERNITY TO PONDER THE MEANING OF THINGS. AND NOW I HAVE AN ANSWER...

Quote (Elessar @ 20th March 2006 18:06)

Quote (Barrylocke @ 20th March 2006 05:00)

But what makes torching a town better than poisoning it? I guess the poison is "dirtier" play, but she still did some bad things. Maybe the GBA version will shed some light, like it did for FFIV.

Very little. However, 'torching' a city can be seen as a measure taken to destroy an organized counterattack by the citzenry during a battle. Since I don't recall any specifics or details given aside from that one line, we can assume the best of Celes.

That is, that she killed innocents and soldiers alike during a battle. War-crime? Perhaps.

Poison is nothing short of mass-murder. It's definitely a war-crime.

Numerous times in history, entire cities and towns have been razed or virtually destroyed by attacking forces. Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Ben Tre, Grozny, Fallujah, are cities where such events have occured within the last 65 years.

No one involved in those attacks was prosecuted as a war criminal. If the killing of innocents is a war crime, then the USAAF from World War 2 are monsters.

Plus there's the outlook. Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima, some veiw those as nessicary sacrifices in a war full of sacrifices. Grozny and Fallujah, some see it as imperialists slaughtering freedom fighters. Others see it as terrorists being eliminated with regrettable loss of civillian life.

I can't recall who says she "torched maranda" though I think it was our Doman chum Cyan. He may regard it very differently from how she saw it at the time.

But to poison a town is intentionally targetting the innocent. You can see and run from flames and soldiers or just surrender. You cant see poison or nerve gas. It doesn't take prisoners.

Also, most generals are old, battle-hardened soldiers who've been there at seen it. Celes however, is 18-20 or so, and whatever reasons she had to be a general so young are clearly all theoretical, not earned from experience. You can't build leaders or even loyalty in such a scenario from textbooks and lectures. Reality can sneak up on you.

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

I'm going to say the best/most interesting facet of Celes was her penance. She made her mistakes, but was definitely portrayed as a good-hearted character.

I've been playing the RPGone fan translation of the game, and nothing has led me to believe that her character is any different from the one portrayed by Woolsey. The point is... she did some evil stuff, did some good stuff, has a rich history (by gaming standards) and is a powerful, playable character. What more could you ask for?

Celes, I believe, was like most soldiers are. She believed that her side was the good side, and that the other side was trying to kill her people. Oh, and by the way, I AM BACK WOOOT! I lost the link to this site, but now I am back!

Quote (Del S)

Numerous times in history, entire cities and towns have been razed or virtually destroyed by attacking forces. Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Ben Tre, Grozny, Fallujah, are cities where such events have occured within the last 65 years.

No one involved in those attacks was prosecuted as a war criminal. If the killing of innocents is a war crime, then the USAAF from World War 2 are monsters.

Plus there's the outlook. Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima, some veiw those as nessicary sacrifices in a war full of sacrifices. Grozny and Fallujah, some see it as imperialists slaughtering freedom fighters. Others see it as terrorists being eliminated with regrettable loss of civillian life.

The question is whether this was done before or after the war. Torching a city to quiet dissent is different from combat. That was one distinction I drew upon, which is why whether it's a war crime is debatable. Most of your examples were cities that were declared combat zones and treated as such. However, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were quite different in that regard and would definitely not be the best example of moral superiority. In fact, I point out that Dönitz was sentenced despite Nimitz's affidavit stating the Allies' guilt was the same if not greater than that of Dönitz, and the disgusting acts of the Red Army in the east during 1945 were equally ignored by the powers that be. Winners do not prosecute themselves. It simply doesn't make sense.
The idea of a war-crime requires some sort of international laws of war. The Empire doubtless makes no such distinction. They recovered from an extinction-level event not 1000 years past. In terms of civilization development, they would be closer to the Diocletian's Empire than Pax Britannica.

Finally, in response to 'outlook'. Pragmatism is not something that comes from the pure of heart. Though you may feel it's necessary (and certainly I tend to agree), Machiavellianism is not a virtuous philosphy.

Quote (Del S)

I can't recall who says she "torched maranda" though I think it was our Doman chum Cyan. He may regard it very differently from how she saw it at the time.

The answer is in Celes' response, which is silence. She does not refute the claim nor defend herself. It is up to the player to determine the meaning of such silence.

Quote (FF6 Script)

LOCKE: CELES, here, was one of the Empire's generals...
CYAN: Grrr!  I knew she seemed familiar.  Sir GAU, out of my way!
(CYAN tosses GAU to side, and GAU almost hits TERRA.)
CYAN: This's General CELES!  She torched Maranda! She's an Imperial spy!  Now, stand aside!
(LOCKE stands between CELES and CYAN.)
LOCKE: Wait!  CELES has joined the Returners!  She's fighting with us, now!

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

Quote (SilverFork @ 20th March 2006 04:29)

Course, it's never revealed just who commanded the assault on Tzen and murdered the royal family therein. I never really assumed it could've been Celes, but ya never know...

Where in the game does it say that the royal fmaily in tzen was killed off??

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I'VE HAD AN ETERNITY TO PONDER THE MEANING OF THINGS. AND NOW I HAVE AN ANSWER...

Geshtal really fouled up by appointing a demented clown, an 18-year-old girl, and a noble but dramatically misinformed knight as his chief three lieutenants.

Kefka worked well as Geshtal's personal aide - but not a full general with actual command authority. I might be naive, but he forged his commander's signature to get Leo out of Doma, and then poisoned the town, essentially losing the key support of his one effective general.

That said, Leo was obviously a security threat - probably why they had him bogged down against Doma anyway. Now I'm going off a little bit, but short of poison, it looked like Doma was going to hold out for quite a while. That'd keep Leo busy in an essentially pointless quest suited to his skills while Geshtal could take the real forces out on the esper quest. But if that wasn't the plan, it was clear Leo was going to flip at some point.

Then there's Celes. She was an elite weapon with her magical abilities, but not a leader. Also, it seems like the regular army is pretty much men-only (though the suits are somewhat ambiguous), which could lead to some morale problems.

Now, as it turns out, he didn't have many other options, of course. Cid isn't a military man, but he could probably promote some of his special forces from the banquet.

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I hear the jury's still out on...science.

That's it, you people have stood in my way long enough! I'm going to clown college!

my brother pointed it out to me once and i scratched my head like WTF? then i realized that was her personality and she didnt like wat the empire was doing and stood up for wats right (a constant ff theme in my opinion)

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Marion Gaborik is my hero :D

Quote

It just seems that Celes fit the role of Maria much better then she fit the role of a fighter.

That is SOOO true. She acts and talk like a sweet innocent perosn who has done nothing wrong in her life. She would have been better as Maria than a fighter. But if that was the case, I wouldn't have 2 strong magic users at the middle of the game.

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Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Chrsit for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Acts 4:12

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

I find it so weird that the empire was going to execute her when Cefca and Cid seemed to believe that she was all for the empire and was just spying. Hmm looks like the Empire's kinda confused, however I must say I'm kinda dissapointed on the whole all the female characters realize the evil they are doing and atone, makes us guys look worse =P

Quote (Billdolfski @ 22nd March 2006 06:56)

I'm going to say the best/most interesting facet of Celes was her penance. She made her mistakes, but was definitely portrayed as a good-hearted character.

Completely agreed. The "good-hearted character" is what you come to find in Celes, but, initially she seems to be of ambiguous or at least confused consience. I suppose one genocide after the other was simply the last straw...

At first, I admit, I thought...

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

When Locke first busted her out of jail that she a little shady. Like she was going to blow the whole Returner operation

Was that her first intention? Or did she find kindness and well...er...pals amongst the Returner's unlikely band of do-gooders?

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"You broke my f***ing sitar, mother f***er."
-Anton A. Newcombe

"Yet another 'use your sword to magically deliver death from above' character comes in somewhere between the Living Cabbage and Milkmaid character options." -red_beard_neo

Quote (gronx7 @ 30th March 2006 05:51)

I find it so weird that the empire was going to execute her when Cefca and Cid seemed to believe that she was all for the empire and was just spying.  Hmm looks like the Empire's kinda confused, however I must say I'm kinda dissapointed on the whole all the female characters realize the evil they are doing and atone, makes us guys look worse =P

The Empire is first of all, huge. Second of all, it's analogous to the Roman Empire in terms of development of civilities, and thusly power-plays within the military are crucial to political appointments and general influence and wealth. The fact that there are various parties that want her executed while others believe otherwise is the most obvious consequence of such a struggle.

Remember, this is the same Empire that has Generals bickering on the front lines without a clear process of resolution. Their communication technologies is slow and outdated for their size. It has obviously expanded at such a rate that it can't keep up and is now about to collapse. Kefka only ushers in the End of the World before we see it crush itself.

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

I never even saw this topic being addressed personally...She did a lot of bad things in her life, despite what she is portrayed as, and she is trying to atone for those sins.

She probably thought they were all measures of war, but another factor was the slave crown, like terra, they placed on her head i believe...this is true, no?

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<DrkMagimaster282> MWAHAHA. I,
DrkMagimaster282, shall wreak havoc and destroy...
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