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Let's pull off of religion, please.

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And hey, put the laptop down for a while
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Quote (Neal @ 23rd August 2009 12:46)

Let's pull off of religion, please.

Yeah, I'm sorry if I went too far. I myself am not an atheist, and I'm trying to search for religion myself. It's not what you believe, it's that you close your mind to things. There are many Christians that believe in gay rights.

And when you think about it, what we are doing is really the exact same thing that we're fighting against. "It's because [religion/homosexuality] is wrong." It's interchangeable. The entire idea is to live and let live. If you're Christian, be a Christian, but don't force your God on others.


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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 23rd August 2009 22:41)

And when you think about it, what we are doing is really the exact same thing that we're fighting against. "It's because [religion/homosexuality] is wrong."

I've never done so, each to thier own, sexuality, faith, favourite icecream
Just don't force it onto others

Thats my creed

Signed @ Blitz !

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christians and catholics are pretty much the same.

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And mary as a virgin.

? LOL.

Since we've cleaned that bit on religion up... Here's something that I've decided from looking at history and people in general: Religion breeds neither ingorance or intolerance: it is used by ignorant or intolerant people as an excuse to exercise their ignorance and intolerance. And that just ticks everyone off.

Seperation of church and state does mean that churches can treat marriage as they want. There are several religious groups (a number that is on the rise) that will marry any two individuals.

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Quote (Death Penalty @ 28th August 2009 13:02)

Seperation of church and state does mean that churches can treat marriage as they want. There are several religious groups (a number that is on the rise) that will marry any two individuals.

True enough, but it doesn't mean anything for whether the government recognizes the marriage. That's really the crux of the argument with same-sex marriage; it's great to be married in the eyes of friends, family, and the religion of your choice, but real-world life also dictates that conferring of all the legal benefits of marriage are just as important.

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Quote (Death Penalty @ 28th August 2009 18:02)

Since we've cleaned that bit on religion up... Here's something that I've decided from looking at history and people in general: Religion breeds neither ingorance or intolerance: it is used by ignorant or intolerant people as an excuse to exercise their ignorance and intolerance. And that just ticks everyone off.

I used to share that argument, but it dries up after a point. I know three middle-aged professional Muslim women who I would assume are tolerant of anyone different than them. After some months I was completely thrown by their view of homosexuality and people who are openly gay. And it's not just homosexuality, they also harbour a, frankly, stupid view of alcohol: all people only drink to forget their troubles. Unfortunately, religion can have a damning impact on anybody's point of view of some issues, no matter how tolerant or responsible they are in general.

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It's not that people are using religion as a tool to take away people's freedom, people who believe in the Bible really believe that homosexuality is wrong.

What I am saying is that ignorance, morality, and such terms are relative. We look at different cultures with a myopic view, judging them by our belief and moral systems, and not by theirs. Religious people might even think our beliefs are ignorant, but we all just need to realize that it's about choice and freedom.

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Praise Be To Helix!

I hate to derail this religion discussion, but I'll just state my views on same-sex marriage and get out. I tend to be blunt when it comes to civil rights discussions like these.

I think it's criminal to deny two adult human beings in love with one other the right to marry. Especially if they're a pair of taxpaying, law-abiding citizens. Your religious beliefs are choices you make, even if they're often determined by your environment and upbringing. Your sexuality is not a choice or a "lifestyle," but a part of yourself. Why does the United States provide broad freedoms to people making different religious choices but allow written discrimination like anti-same-sex marriage laws to exist, when homosexuality is not a choice? I don't get it.

This post has been edited by laszlow on 30th August 2009 20:48

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Quote (laszlow @ 30th August 2009 15:46)

I think it's criminal to deny two adult human beings in love with other the right to marry. Especially if they're a pair of taxpaying, law-abiding citizens. Your religious beliefs are choices you make, even if they're often determined by your environment and upbringing. Your sexuality is not a choice or a "lifestyle," but a part of yourself. Why does the United States provide broad freedoms to people making different religious choices but allow written discrimination like anti-same-sex marriage laws to exist, when homosexuality is not a choice? I don't get it.

I couldn't have said it any better myself. People can no more choose their sexuality than they can choose what skin colour they'll be born with, or the colour of their eyes or hair.

Of course, there are plenty of people who still remain convinced that it is nothing more than a life-choice, and the general lack of understanding is one of the biggest barriers the homosexuality community has to face.



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Okay, but there was a goat!

Fundamentalist Christians are some of the worst kinds of people I have ever been around. They boast off so proudly about how "perfectly divine" they are, yet they are such homophobic fascists.

They like to condemn all homosexual men and women, yet they don't realize that they're also sinning aswell. "Love Thy Neighbor" seems to not apply here in their personalities, hmm..

Also, many of these bastard fundies take pride in hating gay people (two of the Seven Deadliest sins according to their beliefs) are broken, and they could go even as far as murdering a human being (which violates one of the Ten Commandments, Thou Shalt Not MURDER).

They clearly contradict the love of Christ and the fact he was friends with various sinners in his time.

As soon as I became a freethinker, everything in my life became so clear.

This post has been edited by Blades of Steel on 30th August 2009 21:03

So, you're judging the way that "fundamentalist Christians" generalize people by... generalizing them. Hope you feel good about that, because it's a bit obnoxious to me, and I'd guess a lot of others.

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I'll start out just saying all for equal rights for everyone, whether they are homosexual, hetrosexual, black, white, male, female, American, Canadian, ect.....

I live in Utah, and durring the prop 8 vote, my wife and I were attending protests in Salt Lake City to oppose the Mormon church donating money to the campain funding "Yes on 8". I know many mormons who were upset by the position the church was taking. I don't think it is fair to make a broad statement against all Christians, because it just isn't true. Even when a religion takes a stand on an issue, you can't make a broad statement blanketing everyone. Stereotyping isn't fair, no matter what side you're on.

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Quote (Fadien @ 30th August 2009 23:28)

I'll start out just saying all for equal rights for everyone, whether they are homosexual, hetrosexual, black, white, male, female, American, Canadian, ect.....

I live in Utah, and durring the prop 8 vote, my wife and I were attending protests in Salt Lake City to oppose the Mormon church donating money to the campain funding "Yes on 8". I know many mormons who were upset by the position the church was taking. I don't think it is fair to make a broad statement against all Christians, because it just isn't true. Even when a religion takes a stand on an issue, you can't make a broad statement blanketing everyone. Stereotyping isn't fair, no matter what side you're on.

You make a few valid points


I also heard that the church has changed and accepts mary not being a virgin or something,but cannot trust the internet.

So i guess the churh does progress and make changes.


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Quote (Rangers51 @ 30th August 2009 17:34)

So, you're judging the way that "fundamentalist Christians" generalize people by... generalizing them. Hope you feel good about that, because it's a bit obnoxious to me, and I'd guess a lot of others.

Yeah, I don't think you have to guess about that. It's hypocritical. I mean, I support gay marriage because I think it's not right to judge other people. I don't like it when Christians try to impose their beliefs on people, but that doesn't make them bad people. I live in one of the most conservative states in the Union, the "buckle" of the Bible belt, if you will. But most people here are very nice people. In fact, most of my family is like that, but it doesn't make them bad.

Now, they impose their beliefs on people, and I think that is wrong. But I don't even think they realize that they are doing it. Like I said, they just believe that it's wrong, and you can't blame them for that. It's in the Bible, and they believe in the Bible. It doesn't make them villains, they've just kind of forgot about the First Amendment.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Every society needs its differences because normality is just dead boring. In my school if you do something stupid you're called gay and It's just become a random derrogatortory word. Also the stereotype of the feminine gay dude is a bit off There's this really buff guy who speaks with a really deep voice and goes hunting and 4X4ing and he's gay. There's also a weird stereotype in my school in which they believe that all homosexuals are desperate and will screw any guy who bends over.

To be politically correct each to his own and all that just please leave me out of it

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What amazes me ,as an English major, is how often I hear the "Homosexual marriage threatens the meaning of the word "marriage"" argument... I guess they should be upset about the magnum bullet caliber, since before it was invented, the only definition of "magnum" in the dictionary was the magnum wine bottle. Please... do these people think about an issue before they take a stand?
I know Christianity, as a majority, is against it, but the best way to go about it is to educate the negative, anti-gay mentality out of our society. We do it through the classroom, not through ad hominem attacks and giant sweeping generalizations. I think the Christian belief system and book is as hypocritical and fictitious as the next guy, but I grew up in the bible belt like Blitz and I know plenty of good people that haven't missed a Sunday church meeting in years. Certainly everyone must acknowledge that the idea is to get people to see the light, to change their mind, and over all to be a little more open about giving others the rights that they themselves enjoy. No one is going to be convinced by a guy spouting out "piss on your beliefs... vote no for prop 8!!!" You may not like being civil to someone that is anti-gay, especially if they talk like a superior being for being a straight, conservative Christian, but no one wants to agree with the guy who's calling him stupid. It gets the cause nowhere fast.

Quote (Blades of steel)

As soon as I became a freethinker, everything in my life became so clear.

Blades seriously, did you forget where you came from? I'm sure there is a fundy that wakes up every day somewhere in the world and says "Wow, I was wrong." It happens all the time. If you have believed, then it's hypocrisy to insist that these people are "bastards." Point is, there are new freethinkers that wake up all the time, and they will come from the same place you did.


Who knows, one day maybe all the states will legalize gay marriage and make it possible for them to have all the economic benefits that we enjoy, and maybe if we're lucky, Christianity will go the way of Greek mythology, through education.

This post has been edited by Sephiroth on 4th September 2009 03:53

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Who knows, one day maybe all the states will legalize gay marriage and make it possible for them to have all the economic benefits that we enjoy, and maybe if we're lucky, Christianity will go the way of Greek mythology, through education.

Or you could accept that, much like yourself, other people have their own beliefs and don't enjoy being patronized about it neither. Similar to humans, Christians are capable of keeping an open mind and living and letting live (note to self, never try to gerundize that ever again). As you youtself said, sweeping generalizations get you nowhere.

This post has been edited by Sherick on 4th September 2009 04:25

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I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...

Quote (Sherick @ 3rd September 2009 23:24)

As you youtself said, sweeping generalizations get you nowhere.

That doesn't mean that I like the belief system. I was talking about the people. Didn't you read the rest of the post?
It's not a generalization to say I don't like religion. If I thinks it's wrong, then I think it's wrong. That isn't a personal attack on you or your beliefs, so why would you take it as such? I don't like religion is not the same as 'I don't like religious people.' I don't think religious people are stupid. I think the things they believe are ridiculous and I make no attempt to hide it, but that doesn't mean I think you aren't capable of making the same grades as me in school, or being an all around good person.
If you're so big on accepting other's beliefs then why don't you just accept my opinion that Christianity will eventually go the way of the dinosaur and drop it?

This post has been edited by Sephiroth on 4th September 2009 06:26

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

@Sephiroth

Well, there is something wrong with that, I think. There is a difference between disliking religion and disliking religious people.

But there is also a difference between personally not choosing religion, and hoping that religion ends.

There is a difference between having an opinion and forcibly suggesting that other people's opinions are stupid or ridiculous.

Why can't you just say, "I'm not religious," and not call religion ignorant. People need faith. They need something to believe in. I personally don't believe in what they believe in, but how in the world could I hope that what they believe is wrong?

That is the nexus of this entire argument. Why can't we just let gay people live? Why can't we choose, as you have, to believe what you wish, but not condemn the beliefs of others?

I understand how you feel, Sephiroth, I grew up here. I know the ignorance just as you do. But you can't stop ignorance, let me tell you that. Doesn't matter if it's Christianity, Islam, doesn't even have to be a religion. If Christianity ends, something else will take its place. Remember this quote from Voltaire also: "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

But this entire thing is about personal choice. Why can't you be an atheist, or whatever you are, without openly saying that kind of stuff? It perhaps is your way of venting, but people on this forum believe in that "stupid" stuff man. What I am saying is, if you support one group's right to freedom, as well as your own, shouldn't you support all people's rights?

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Praise Be To Helix!

Blitz, I'll go to PM with this one so we don't derail it.

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

Quote (BlitzSage @ 4th September 2009 09:23)

Well, there is something wrong with that, I think. There is a difference between disliking religion and disliking religious people.

But there is also a difference between personally not choosing religion, and hoping that religion ends.

There is a difference between having an opinion and forcibly suggesting that other people's opinions are stupid or ridiculous.

Opinions are fine as long as they don't harm others. We wouldn't care about what people have to say on same-sex marriage if it didn't harm couples who want to marry. Sephiroth is not harming anyone by voicing his issues with religion.

Quote (BlitzSage @ 4th September 2009 09:23)

That is the nexus of this entire argument. Why can't we just let gay people live? Why can't we choose, as you have, to believe what you wish, but not condemn the beliefs of others?

You'll have to explain how it's possible to support the legality of gay marriage and symultaneously not condemn the belief of Christians who oppose it.

Quote (BlitzSage @ 4th September 2009 09:23)

I understand how you feel, Sephiroth, I grew up here. I know the ignorance just as you do. But you can't stop ignorance, let me tell you that. Doesn't matter if it's Christianity, Islam, doesn't even have to be a religion. If Christianity ends, something else will take its place. Remember this quote from Voltaire also: "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

I don't agree. This sounds a bit like the argument that it's humans who are fallible not the religion. It's the old fatalist argument that there's no point in changing anything because the same problems revive themselves anyway, and it's completely wrong. I don't believe in original sin.

Rampant liberalism can only take you so far, you must make a stand on some points, even if it upsets people. That's why we need ballsy people like Sephiroth to come out and say these things, or they'd never be up for debate.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

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You'll have to explain how it's possible to support the legality of gay marriage and symultaneously not condemn the belief of Christians who oppose it.

Because not all Christians oppose it *points to the rest of the thread*

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I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...

@sweetdude

It seems as if I have found myself within the realms of hypocrisy with my post. Sorry.

Now, back on topic.

I'm not sure exactly who we are arguing with on this topic. Who here does not support gay marriage?

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 4th September 2009 13:53)

Who here does not support gay marriage?

I DON'T!!!!111111

I think it's evil and immoral, it should be between man/woman.

Quote (BlitzSage @ 4th September 2009 14:53)

I'm not sure exactly who we are arguing with on this topic. Who here does not support gay marriage?

I have mixed feelings on gay marriage, and I'm queer as a three dollar bill. However, my issue with gay marriage stems from my issues with marriage in the first place. It doesn't make sense to me for any marriage to receive benefits from the government in its current status - seems like a violation of separation of church and state. Additionally, I don't think a church should be forced to marry people it doesn't want to marry. If I wanted to marry somebody, why would I want to do it where I wasn't welcome or wanted? That seems like it would be flaunting it in front of a powerless church, and that's petty and immature. If the current status of marriage/government continues to exist, I think the option should be made available for any church who wants to support it. There are enough gay-friendly churches out there.

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In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
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I feel it, it's leaving me

Not really sure how a gay marriage can be evil. It's not like they're doing it for money, they're doing something out of love and making a commitment to each other. I understand some people believe that being homosexual is unnatural and that you can change that, it's just a matter of mind. But science proves that wrong, and there are actually studies to prove homosexuality is actually natural: There is a correlation between population growth and homosexuality. (If anyone knows where I can find more information on this study, I'd like to know-- it was mentioned to me once by a friend studying that, and I've been intrigued since).

Either way, I'm for gay marriage. A lot of people argue that a marriage should be between a man and a woman, but then what of divorce? Men and women divorce, thereby nullifying this sacred act of commitment. I don't think any of us have any right to say two men or two women would really make marriage look any worse than it with high divorce rates and even higher infidelity rates.

This post has been edited by RelmArrowney on 4th September 2009 21:43

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Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 4th September 2009 17:00)

Quote (BlitzSage @ 4th September 2009 13:53)

Who here does not support gay marriage?

I DON'T!!!!111111

I think it's evil and immoral, it should be between man/woman.

Why do you think it is evil and immoral?

Quote (Neal)

It doesn't make sense to me for any marriage to receive benefits from the government in its current status - seems like a violation of separation of church and state.

Marriage, in that sense, is not a symbol of love. It is a legal union. Two adults receive benefits by "merging" together. In that case, it is unconstitutional to monopolize marriage due to religious beliefs.

Quote (Neal)

Additionally, I don't think a church should be forced to marry people it doesn't want to marry.

I agree, sort of. But I don't think that should be a factor in this. If we allowed gay marriage, it doesn't have to take place in a church. It could happen anywhere.



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Praise Be To Helix!

Neal, I understand your view that the church should not be forced to marry people if it doesn't want to, but what about Vegas marriages, or getting married at the Justice of the Peace office? That's not a religious thing, it's a legal issue. My view that gays should be able to get married comes from the ideal that they should be allowed to enjoy using a couple's health insurance plan, etc.

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

Quote (Sephiroth @ 5th September 2009 03:26)

Neal, I understand your view that the church should not be forced to marry people if it doesn't want to, but what about Vegas marriages, or getting married at the Justice of the Peace office? That's not a religious thing, it's a legal issue. My view that gays should be able to get married comes from the ideal that they should be allowed to enjoy using a couple's health insurance plan, etc.

Oh, that should definitely be allowed. Wouldn't make sense to me otherwise given the current status of marriage.

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me