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Seeing as the other topic concerning homophobia was closed as it got far off topic, I decided to start something along those lines that concern me.

Being gay in this century has become something very political in America and worldwide. It's become more defining than ever before and even though many say the stereotypes are lessening, this is not exactly true. New ones are formed as anti-Bush, pro-gay marriage, politically liberal...the list goes on.

When I first came to terms with my own sexuality, it was a scary time. I live in a small town where support is limited and others like you are few and extremely far (even in age) in between. To me, at that point, 'gay' had a whole subculture to it that involved acting and being perceived a certain way. That's dissolved into something new.

I hate being labeled as 'gay' because I don't believe I really fit in. Yes, I can be feminine, queer, gender confused, whatever one wants to say. But I happen to be attracted to other males, relate more to female perspectives and generally associate my friendships with them more. Being gay is simply a part of me, it does not define me.

As for homosexuality being normal: normal is defined as being what happens the majority of the time. And the majority of the time, people are heterosexual. But is something wrong with straying from the majority? To me, it doesn't matter if I born gay, raised that way, or somehow influenced to be gay. I am who I am, and I'm quite comfortable that way, no reason have I to change.

Sometimes not being part of a majority brings a new perspective. I was raised Catholic and I've seen opinions for both sides of the homophobia issue. People have said before in the other topic that homosexuality is repulsive. And I understand that obviously if you're attracted to the opposite gender, sex with the same gender would be repulsive. I'm glad to see that several of you, no matter your own opinion, respect the opinions of others.

Ultimately, I'm simply asking for support for this argument or logical refutation because either are beneficial. People will always have differences amongst themselves and differences, even if one can't understand them, can at least try to recognize them.

One thing we'll always share is that we're human, each with souls and emotions...isn't that something we can all celebrate?

Realistic Rain

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"I'm on a caffeine buzz!"
"No, you're on a sugar high."

As far as all that goes, I'd hafta say homosexuality has gotten off pretty lightly in the department of prejudice. When the most common derogatory term to describe homosexuality is 'gay'(i. e. happy), you're not too bad off. Here's a group of people who's stereotype is actually rather positive from what I've seen.

Ecentric, fun-loving, artistic (at least in fashion) and sexually confident and proud. Worst stereotype I think I know of is the vague implications (as apposed to outright accusation) that homosexuals are in some way superficial.

Not to say that gay people don't take flak of course, just to say I've heard of worse.

This post has been edited by Narratorway on 17th December 2005 05:30

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Arts

Farts

Twarts

Well, that's the thing. I'm not trying to make a complaint, I'm just trying to find people who feel the same way. Is gay still the idea and concept it once was or is now obsolete? Somewhere in between? Is it a 'lifestyle' or simply a shorter word to say than 'homosexual'?

Just a thought. Please don't think I'm accusing you, Narratorway, I'm just clarifying my original post.

Realistic Rain

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"I'm on a caffeine buzz!"
"No, you're on a sugar high."

I have a simple rule; If you're gay i don't care, just don't hit on me
that is where i cross the line
i just had to stand in line next to three gay guys today
one had on a purple scarf and a purse, and all of them acted feminine
did i feel the need to protest in some way, no. they were three friends minding their own business, no matter how annoying they were that is the truth
and in the society of today pushing for racial equality and now gay equality, it just seems simple enough to me to follow the rule; whatever floats your boat.
I do not support or critisize homosexuality, yes I think there is something wrong with it, but people are people and they all have feelings.

and as for all celebrating, no (no offense intended). but I reserve my celebrations for things more important than acceptance, to me acceptance happened a long time ago it's nothing new. I celebrate things that don't happen everyday like christmas and the superbowl

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"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"

I agree with cloudstrife510 on the basis of "whatever floats your boat"

Why should I care about what other people think? Only in problems that really matter to me (like legislation on video games as an example, or correcting someone if they are clearly wrong, which only works with most people but not all of them).

As long as noone is making assumptions that someone is gay because they still play with their huge stash of LEGO's (one of the reasons for disliking my uncle: he catergorized me as this for the very reason).

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Neneko is Neneko because Neneko couldn't be Neneko if Neneko wasn't Neneko!
--as quoted from Neneko, Mahoraba {Heartful Days}

I can stab a man with a thick paperback book thru the ribcage.

Personally I think that the term gay is just short for homosexual nowadays, because well, just look at 'Bears'. They refer to themselves as gay and are truly not femmy cutesy boys. Regardless of the steroetype, I think everyone says 'I'm gay', rather than, 'I am a homosexual', it just sounds better. And I don't think it'd be appropriate to refer to a really waifish girly-boy who happens to be 100% straight as gay, even if his demeanor would make him seem gay, because of what the word implies. I've known of guys refering to themselves as 'lesbians trapped in a mans body'.

so what am i trying to say? i'm not even sure.

to me, gay means homosexual. but i don't think everyone would agree with me.

my personal stance is 'if you're gay, you're okay!'

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The first duty in life is to assume a pose,
and the second duty is...well, no one's found out yet.

I'm not for ''kill the homosexuals'' But i don't support it either(No offence) I mean If your a homosexual thats fine with me. But if you hit on me your gonna hear about it. They do have theyre strong point's. for example they dress way better than me! so i don't mind them much really still I'm sorry but i use gay as the term for homosexual (No offence) ''As gay as a day in may'' As my phrase.

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"You know that feeling you get when you're on a merry go 'round, and you want to jump off to make the spinning stop, but you know it'll suck when you land? I feel like that all the time"- Keno

"I stab my girl until I fall down"
-Yukari
Do you like Horny Bunnies?

I like Cloud_Strife510's post. I'll roll with what he said.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Quote (Realistic Rain @ 16th December 2005 23:39)

Yes, I can be feminine, queer, gender confused, whatever one wants to say. But I happen to be attracted to other males, relate more to female perspectives and generally associate my friendships with them more. Being gay is simply a part of me, it does not define me.

As for homosexuality being normal: normal is defined as being what happens the majority of the time. And the majority of the time, people are heterosexual. But is something wrong with straying from the majority? To me, it doesn't matter if I born gay, raised that way, or somehow influenced to be gay. I am who I am, and I'm quite comfortable that way, no reason have I to change.

First, I honestly used to think that you were female. I never bothered to check your gender on your user page, and I never really had a reason to do so either, but it's kinda the faulty "conclude your gender from your avatar" idea.

Anyways, responses to your post:

You mention that you sort of 'act like a girl', including an attraction toward guys.

I find it interesting that I, on the other hand, am not very masculine in my tastes in non-sexuality-related things, tend to more likely agree with girls than guys, and often have more female friends than male friends. I also tend to side with girls when gender jokes get thrown around. I am a guy, of course, but I am also most definitely heterosexual.

As for the definition of normalcy: What is "normal" anyways? Is it necessarily what most people do? For one thing, it's culture-dependent; polygamy is seen as repulsive in the US (although people don't seem to mind affairs, ironically) but is completely normal in some African cultures. Within a culture, you may be right about the majority thing.

Ironically, though, while I haven't tried to find a person who's definitively "normal", I believe that I'd be hard-pressed to find such a person. Each person has her/his own little quirks and idiosyncracies and special bits of personality that no one really is "normal" as a whole.

As for what being "gay" means, in my view, it merely denotes a particular biochemical, physiological--and abnormal from a scientific perspective--state such that a person finds same-sex members of the species to be sexually attractive. If there's any "gay culture", it's because people (gays themselves and/or others) associated it with being gay, not because it's inherently such.

(For reference, my mentioning 'abnormal from a scientific perspective' takes, as 'normality', the idea that creatures should inherently want to procreate to pass on their genes.)

Now, I don't mind being around gay people as much as I wouldn't mind being around straight people. I don't know the real statistics, so I'd assume the chance that I'd run into a gay guy who takes one look at me and wants to have sex with me is about the same chance I'd run into a girl who'd do the same. Basically, idiots occur on both sides anyways.

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 22nd December 2005 03:22

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Oh, I heard this from my bro-in-law, probably just a stereotype...

Apparently, its good to have a friend who's gay. Thats who a lot of teh chicks hang out with because they "feel safe"

Like I said, a general stereotype that im not going to believe in, and I don't believe more than half the things he says, but if its true, then hooray for gay people!

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Neneko is Neneko because Neneko couldn't be Neneko if Neneko wasn't Neneko!
--as quoted from Neneko, Mahoraba {Heartful Days}

I can stab a man with a thick paperback book thru the ribcage.

Eeewwww! Gay dudes

YESSSSS!!! Lesbians

^^
Some can't stand watching two dudes kissing eachother, but put a lesbian porn and it's okay,

BTW, I'm not gay!

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PS3 tag: TipoDLuffy

"...quite possibly the greatest game ever made"

Um... I think that is quite off-topic. But anyway..

I think homosexuality is just another type. Like stilton and cheddar, i.e., woopdie doo if you're homosexual, but I don't mind. You can always offer me some Wenslydale, but don't shove it down my throat.

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You say I'm weird: you're the person who is exited when you kick a leather testicle into a net.

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Kill me, or else you a murderer!

To be honest I don't really care if you're gay or not, it doesn't affect me, does it? Unless, like a chick hit on me, which has happened. If a gay couple wanted to get married, or kiss in public, I say, good for them. And sometimes I like to see things like that happen just to stick up the finger to the discriminaty people. Personally the thought of doing *stuff* with another girl repulses me, and seeing two guys doing *stuff* doesn't do anything for me. But that doesn't mean I think it's disgusting, just not my cup of tea.

Interesting stats:

1 in 4 chicks would like to do *stuff* to each other.
1 in 4 gay guys are camp.
Most guys I know like chicks who do *stuff* to each other.
IMO guys like girls who do *stuff* 'cause back in the stone age they used to fight over the guy, don't know if that's true though.

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'Bastards, we may be, but clever are we.'
Thorn, FFIX

It's nothing horrible. Of course some people are sickened by it because they don't like it. (Just like I don't like vegetables!) But some people do, and there's nothing wrong with different tastes. The only difference here is that you really don't have a choice. Being attracted to the same gender is something that you can't help, just like when you are attracted to someone you would think is your opposite. You can't help attraction. Sure, you can hide it and pretend, but being with someone you truly love and are attracted to is a right people deserve.

And as for people who think homosexuality is shoved down their throat, well I understand that too, although I wouldn't quite say it's being shoved down people's throats. Right now, homosexuals can't get married (with the exception of a few places) and that's very frustrating. By putting it on the front and putting their issues in public view, they are hoping to get support so that one day they can marry. It's hard, especially with being sexually active, because there is no "waiting until marriage" for gays. Since they have no marriage option, their "moral standards" and such are extremely limited and differ greatly from the traditional heterosexual moral tradition of waiting until marriage (which not as many people practice today). So, due to frustration, confusion, and anger, homosexuals do want many of the same rights as others, and just want to be able to be who they are. Seeing a gay character on television is NOT shoving homosexuality down anyone's throat, unless you say that seeing heterosexual couples on television is shoving heterosexuality down homosexuals' throats.

I do believe there are homosexuals who make the rest of us look bad, who try to shove their beliefs down other people's throats and make them uncomfortable. Straight men especially do not appreciate being hit on (in general) by gay men, and trying to make someone uncomfortable for the sake of making someone uncomfortable really isn't appropriate. But I think sometimes the line of "shoving down a throat" and depicting average people or sharing something as simple as "My partner bought me this.." is blurred.

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I'm a general, not some opera floozy!

This is mainly a reply to Glenn Magus Harvey's post:

What you say is very true, normalcy, as you put it, is defined by culture. And yes, odds are that there is not one person who is entirely "normal", by this definition. But regardless of these little quirks, people have certain degress of influence over another (i.e. fashion trends) that begin to group people by those who respond to the influence and those who do not.

This is where the idea of gay culture comes from, a fact that certain gay people will associate with others who are similar in respects to attitude, mannerism, etc. in order to create a circle of friends or an environment where they can feel comfortable.

And now, just general reply.

Another thing that seems to define this sort of "gay culture." In mainstream media, homosexuality is often portrayed as something very separate from...well, society. Take this possible scenario. An episode of a TV show shows a lesbian couple and their new child. Usually, and obviously, this is a generalization but I think it's applicable, this episode will not focus on the fact that the two are good parents, good friends of the main characters. It will most likely focus on the fact that the two are lesbians. To me, that makes it seem like the media influences people to believe that if one has an "alternative sexuality" that it is the one thing that defines them.

Well, that's just an example. I mean, even with the subject of Gay Rights, from the way the government presents them, it does sound like Gay is a new defined class of people, when really it's a collection of many, many different people from many backgrounds. So is there a difference between the terms "gay" and "homosexual" in this sense?

And as for the comment about lesbian porn, not exactly wanted or called for. Be careful, you might offend someone.

Wishing you all a happy new year (not to say 2005 was that bad,)

Realistic Rain

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"I'm on a caffeine buzz!"
"No, you're on a sugar high."

RealisticRain: I saw Saffire's post as simply quoting the mentality of many straight males (esp. teenagers) in an exaggerated fashion.

"Some can't stand watching two dudes kissing eachother, but put a lesbian porn and it's okay"

Note here that he said "Some," not "I." I thought he was mocking the rather hypocritical mentality of guys who say boo to homosexual males but root for lesbian females.

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SPEKKIO: "GRRR...That was most embarrassing!"

Sorry, an overreaction on my part. My apologies, SaffireWeapon.

Moderator Edit

I wouldn't apologize just yet. I've seen enough of his posts at other forums that I wouldn't be at all surprised to know that he was speaking directly of himself. Now, there are legitimate reasons why what he says may be true, but that's hardly the point of this topic. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 30th December 2005 21:51

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"I'm on a caffeine buzz!"
"No, you're on a sugar high."

Personally, I'm not gay, but like many others, "to each his own".
I don't really care if I get hit on by someone of my same sex, he just finds me attractive. I simply don't reciprocate. That happens with men hitting on women and vice versa all the time.

I'm not gay, and, as a Christian (not just the 'goes to church' kind, either. I'm pretty serious), I obviously think homosexuality is wrong. However, to quote a phrase that's used much to often by hypocrites that don't mean it, "Hate the sin, not the sinner." While I don't know any gay people personally (I don't think there are any at all in my town), I was very good friends with one guy on a forum, until he told everyone there that he was gay... and we're still friends.

Honestly, I think a big misconception of the general populace, like Realistic Rain said, is that people view gays as being, well... just "gay," and don't realize that there's more to them than that. There's a person behind the "gay" stereotype, and that person is just like all of us, with the same needs and desires, except for the fact that they may prefer to have another man as their companion instead of a woman. But honestly, is it that big of a deal? No, it's not.

Now, one of the faults in my character is that I use "gay" as a synonym for "stupid," "dumb," and other such nonsense (like "Dude that movie is gay"), but I do try not to. But it is, and I don't think I'm exaggerating, the most common form of insult in my school. But whatever, I'm trying to fix that.

Oh, and... for better or for worse, SPIFFYNESS IS BACK! Not that I ever actually went anywere, I just didn't visit the site for a while. [/off-topicness]

Oh wait, and HAPPY NEW YEAR!

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The island bathes in the sun's bright rays
Distant hills wear a shroud of grey
A lonely breeze whispers in the trees
Sole witness to history

ICO-You were there-

First off: right after I read all the posts here I nearly choked laughing.

No offence, I just imagined such a discussion and such points made publically here, in Poland.

Our society is mostly anti-homosexual, (Not to mention those idiots elected the stupidest party yet for the next 5 years... ==') - but I stray - and most of the people who are against gays and lesbians WILL NOT, NEVER, NO-WAY, listen to reason. They think homosexuality equal to pedophilia or necrophilia, and SAY that's "not the way God meant" and blab on about "Catholic morality"...makes me sick actually (especially since they don't listen as much to what the Pope or his people say, but more the "Radio Maria"... a pseudo-catholic station with very, VERY, VERY intolerant views.)

But back on topic. I'm seconding (or thirding, or whatever) the opinion, that I'm not bothered if anyone is gay, as long as they don't hit on me (although it flatters me to a certain extent)
I've an acquaintance who's gay, and, well, he hates my guts (says that I'm annoying, true enough) but that's a personal dislike, unrelated with whoever's sexuality (then again, he tends to dislike most people).


The problem with tolerance of gay people (or rather, tolerance overall) is that people SEE a DIFFERRENCE. If there were no differrence SEEN, there would be no point to argue.

Being gay is, from nature's point of view, abnormal, but then again, so is civilisation.

About gay porn: it comes, I've noticed so far, in two sorts: disgusting hardcore, wich, I doubt even gays themselves watch, and some really cute stuff.

On a side note: I'm heterosexual, but I've a few friends (guys, that is) whom I dearly love to huggle.

*huggles everybody*

Have a gay (="happy") New Year people.


This post has been edited by SilverMaduin on 2nd January 2006 13:30

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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

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(I don't think there are any at all in my town

There are... I'm assuming you live in a small town - places where gays tend to remain closeted for fear of small town retaliation. I've lived in small towns before and the homophobia is appalling. In one town a gay couple moved in together. Things were fine for a while until word spread and a couple of young men decided to take it upon themselves and fix the situation. They broke into the couple's appartment and nearly beat them to death with blunt weapons. And then there's Mathew Shephard....

So really, if you think there really aren't any gay folk in your town, oh believe me they are there, just trying to blend in and seem as straight as possible.

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About gay porn: it comes, I've noticed so far, in two sorts: disgusting hardcore, wich, I doubt even gays themselves watch, and some really cute stuff.

Oh please, is there even a point to that statement? I mean, really! Besides, straights have some pretty sick porn out there, more than gay folk can provide.

But on that note:

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...in Poland.  Our society is mostly anti-homosexual.

What's really funny is that Bel Ami is a polish gay porn studio, and many of their "actors" are straight. I had the impression Polish folk were more sexually liberated than how you've stated.


Anyway, let's get back to the 'G' rated fun at hand

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Do you think we're forever?

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I don't think there are any at all in my town

There are...

I disagree. Homosexuality, for all the press it gets, is not that prevalent. I think it is not only very possible, but also highly likely, that that small country town does not, in fact, contain homosexuals.

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About gay porn: it comes, I've noticed so far, in two sorts: disgusting hardcore, wich, I doubt even gays themselves watch, and some really cute stuff.

I agree with you on this one, Ultimage. A rather silly assertion. I've seen some ghastly porn in my time, and it wasn't gay. I've seen about a minute's worth of a gay porn, as well. To be honest, it grosses me out as much as a bestiality porn, but that's due to my own standards. As far as strictly speaking of the acts being performed, straight porn is on par with gay porn. Both can get pretty freaky deeky.





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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Hamedo, honestly, any small town will have at least one or two gay folk, they're just not immediately obvious. And some would just rather not admit that gay folk may actually live in their towns, on their street, right next door, in their own homes...

And if you believe the 10% theory that still makes for a helluvalotta gay folk running around out there. So, how many people live in the US? And all the gay folk conveniantly live only in cities and larger towns. Sorry not quite.

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Do you think we're forever?

Hamedo? They're just not telling you. I don't blame them, honestly.

As for me: ::waves equality flag!::

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Some ghost of me might greet my son
the day he is delivered.


Eternal Sleep, Track 1-1: The Blue Planet

Small towns definitely have gay people. As for whether it's 10%, I highly doubt it. In cities, people mind their own business. In small towns, people know one another. If they don't know each other, they know your name and have the ability to bother you...

I agree with SilverMaduin very much, it's that people see only a difference. Kind of like the way left-handed children were thought to be sinister. It's the person with the difference, not the difference with the person.

As for the porn subject, we'll just let that one go. But it's true there are two sides. You have the weird boys who do everything with anything that moves and then you have a more sensual kind.

That's all I'm saying on that.

Realistic Rain

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"I'm on a caffeine buzz!"
"No, you're on a sugar high."

I'm not at all surprised by the 10% idea.... in the past 4 years about half the people i've met have been gay. and my sister as well. turns out my aunt is too. i dunno, maybe i attract them, which i admit i'm not complaining. rather get hit on by a girl than some average 'dude'. less threatening or creepy, in my opinion.and if my hubby were hit on by a man, it'd be like, 'awwww, he likes you! that's so cute! now i know he has good taste!'

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The first duty in life is to assume a pose,
and the second duty is...well, no one's found out yet.

I don't buy the "10%" theory, and I don't buy the assertion that homosexuals reside in every town in the US. I think it's silly to proclaim that there is always "at least one", no matter where you go.

In general, surveys quoted by anti-gay activists tend to show figures nearer 1%, while surveys quoted by gay activists tend to show figures nearer 10%, with a mean of 4-5% figure most often cited in mainstream media reports.

In 2005, as part of the statistical and financial measurements required to impliment the UK's new Civil Partnerships Act, the British government's H.M. Treasury actuaries calculated that there are 3.6 million British people who may to enter into a gay or lesbian civil partnership arrangement. This is equal to around 6 percent of the UK population.

So really, we're probably looking at around the same percentage for the US, or possibly a tad less, considering the UK is more "progressive" in it's civil liberties. My guess is that the US floats around 4.5%, and the world as a whole is sitting somewhere on the 2.5% to 3% margin.





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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Uhhh. Your problem, Hamedo, is that you seem to think gays and lesbians "register," like Democrats or Tories or whatever. Especially in America, this is not the case, as you know... they're afraid they might be beaten with sticks. (I don't know where they would get that silly idea!)

And there also seems to be a real black/white consensus here -- gay or straight. Not so, from my extensive experience. Gay people can have hetero experiences, hetero people can have gay experiences (and do more often then you'd think). When it comes down to it, it's more about who you dream of being with than who you might be with at that moment.

So, understandably an imprecise science, eh?

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Some ghost of me might greet my son
the day he is delivered.


Eternal Sleep, Track 1-1: The Blue Planet

Perhaps... but no more imprecise than the figures stating 10% is the rule.

People won't openly admit to cheating on their spouses, but yet we have figures from surveys that give percentages of cheating spouses.

People won't openly admit to sabotaging their workplace, yet we have statistics of disgruntled workers that admit to it when being surveyed.

You call into question that a homosexual will not answer truthfully to a survey. What you don't seem to realize is that all poles have a margin of error for just that sort of thing.

Also, individual names are not included in polls. What does a homosexual have to fear when answering a survey?



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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Well, the point was that there are likely more out there than people think. Personally I don't necessarily buy into statistics that much - can't trust 'em. That "margin of error" they like to protect themselves with, I think, does more of a disservice, because given the amount of people in the world a small sampling can't hope to be accurate. Margin indeed. More like a vast expanse of error.

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Do you think we're forever?