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I noticed, a lot of people seem to think that phoenix down is a drink of some type, and they should be refered to as "Phoenix Downs" however, this is not true, the name as well as the image refers to feathers, down is what pillows were once filled with, they are a type of feather, the phoenix is of course a bird. Birds have feathers, does anyone see where this is leading? Why are ultimate weapons so worthless in shops, they sure do help in battle, so why don't shopkeepers want them? Why do these Shin-ra guys hide all of their valueables in jaunty shiny boxes not-quite-so-hidden in plane sight? If Mako is just condensed life energy, and it is bad, and Materia is also condensed spirit energy, why is using it not bad? Where does the buster sword go when Cloud puts it away? And yet you can see it on Zack's back... Exactly what does, "It's too late, holy's having the opposite effect" mean? Well I figured, we should discuss these...

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forget it I haven't even read the contract, I'm not signing.

How about... "It's just a game, and these elements are made that way to make it balanced and enjoyable to the player?"

I always thought Phonix Down being down from the Phoenix (as opposed to a potion of some kind) was common knowledge, but come to think of it, I dunno. Still, short of not knowing what down is, it hardly seems like the kind of thing you'd easily confuse. To me at least...

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

My friends, and mostly everyone else I've conversed FFVII with must just be idiots then... I theorize that cloud stores all of his weapons inside his anus, for one totally valid truth. When he puts them away, he swings them behind his back and they disappear somewhere... How exactly does a sleep inducing gas (Ether) cause MP to go up?? If Phoenixes are so rare, why is their fluffy coat of feathers so abundant everywhere?

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forget it I haven't even read the contract, I'm not signing.

Quote (Satoh)

Why are ultimate weapons so worthless in shops, they sure do help in battle, so  why don't shopkeepers want them?

The games are programmed that way to discouage the player from selling those items.

Quote (Satoh)

If Mako is just condensed life energy, and it is bad, and Materia is also condensed spirit energy, why is using it not bad?

The formation of Mako and Materia is a naturally occurring phenomenon that isn't harmful to the Planet when allowed to occur naturally. It's the artificial implementation of the concept, expedited exponentially by the use of Mako Reactors, that makes it a problem.

Quote (Satoh)

Where does the buster sword go when Cloud puts it away? And yet you can see it on Zack's back...

To illustrate -- or drive home the point, if you will -- that the weapon is not originally Cloud's.

Quote (Satoh)

Exactly what does, "It's too late, holy's having the opposite effect" mean?

Metor had gotten too close to the Planet by that point, so Holy's struggle with it was damaging the surrounding area. Obviously, Holy's purpose is to protect the Planet, yet this struggle was going to damage it. Thus, it was having the "opposite effect." As for why it might have been happening, probably because the Spell had been held back for weeks and wasn't at its full potency.

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 6th August 2005 00:27

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

By the way, I'd like to take this opportunity to both praise Squall of SeeD for his page and to point people off to it. Some really interesting stuff on FF7's there and lengthy essays on a bunch of things I had never even considered.

Satoh's last question is covered in full there.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Ok I meant for this topic to be philosofical, and comedic at times, there doesn't seem to be enough philosofy here, plus I found it laughable that the great Shin-Ra would keep such useful items and whatnot in the middle of rooms, while that's completely stupid. And yes Squall of SeeD's site is indeed a good read, but it's hardly as interactive as this forum, and email takes too friggin long. This topic wasn't supposed to be the most literal of answers and discussions, because a conversation really suffers when someone presents the deadpan truthful answer to the question. No disrespect to either of you, I admire your wealth of knowledge. I realise everything in the game is the way it is because that's how the programmers left it, but it's more fun to discuss possible intentions of meaning rather than explanations of gameplay mechanics. I don't mean to offend if I have, this is only what I was hoping for. Insight>Literal answer (provided of course the question isn't how somethimng works by the programming, in which case gameplay mechanics are the answer of choice) Sorry to type your eyes off, still though how does one go about casting a spell with a materia, just thinking it couldn't work, are there incantations, certain flexing or moving of body parts, etc. etc.? How do the materia slots work? are they merely holes that run through the weapon to the handle and through the palm? Do you stab someone with phoenix down or do you touch them with it? these are the things I want to know, don't you??

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forget it I haven't even read the contract, I'm not signing.

Quote (Satoh @ 5th August 2005 20:39)

(provided of course the question isn't how somethimng works by the programming, in which case gameplay mechanics are the answer of choice)  How do the materia slots work? are they merely holes that run through the weapon to the handle and through the palm? Do you stab someone with phoenix down or do you touch them with it? these are the things I want to know, don't you??

Quote (Silverlance)

By the way, I'd like to take this opportunity to both praise Squall of SeeD for his page and to point people off to it. Some really interesting stuff on FF7's there and lengthy essays on a bunch of things I had never even considered.

Thank you very much, Silver. I'm glad that you like it.

Quote (Satoh)

I found it laughable that the great Shin-Ra would keep such useful items and whatnot in the middle of rooms, while that's completely stupid.

Well, yes, but there's a certain point where you're expected to differentiate between what's part of gameplay mechanics and what's not. I mean, realistically speaking -- in the context of the storyline -- Mako Reactor No. 1 didn't have a chest with a Phoenix Down sitting in it. For that matter, realistically speaking, Jesse didn't tell Cloud to press the Circle Button when standing in front of a ladder. There's a certain point where you have to differentiate these things for yourself.

Quote (Satoh)

This topic wasn't supposed to be the most literal of answers and discussions, because a conversation really suffers when someone presents the deadpan truthful answer to the question.

I see your point, but at the same time, why ask a question if you don't want the answer? In any event, this is a subjective matter, really. I personally prefer the deadpan facts that are two sentences long over a ton of speculation.

Quote (Satoh)

I don't mean to offend if I have, this is only what I was hoping for.

You haven't. However, in the future, if you wish to generate those kinds of discussions, it might be better to state as much in your opening post. Someone like myself doesn't go out for those sorts of things, as I play these games for the storylines and theorize to find the truth. I personally don't garner much enjoyment from the humourus type of Thread you were going for -- and sorry for ruining it, by the way -- the only exceptions really being Aerith and Sephiroth's "Bangs of Doom" and the Blackhole Pockets where the characters keep all of their extra items and equipment.

Quote (Satoh)

Insight>Literal answer

Wouldn't insight be in regard to the truth, though?

Quote (Satoh)

Sorry to type your eyes off, still though how does one go about casting a spell with a materia, just thinking it couldn't work, are there incantations, certain flexing or moving of body parts, etc. etc.?

(Warning: More deadpan info dump ahead)

The use of Materia is the same as we see in the battles, really. The character just uses it. Incantations or body movements aren't necessary. All that is necessary is the focus of the caster. Obviously, for some, this focus would be enhanced by certain ritualistic techniques, whether it be a chant or a certain movement of their body, but it's not at all necessary, at least as far as Final Fantasy VII is concerned.

That said, in the older games and Tactics, chanting seems to be the order of business (thus, the birth of the Spell known as "Silence"). Whether the chanting is actually the means by which Mages would cast Spells, however, is impossible to determine without more data. While them being unable to chant prevents them from casting the Spells, whether this is because the Spell requires the chant or because the caster derives the focus and belief that it will work from chanting the Spell -- unaware that it would work just the same otherwise -- is unknown. Personally, I would vote the latter to be the case.

For a demonstration of Materia being used outside of Final Fantasy VII without any chanting involved, refer to any number of Advent Children trailers

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

in which Kadaj can be seen holding up his left hand while energy seethes around it -- and note the glowing sphere on his arm, obviously the Materia he's using to perform this Summoning -- abruptly cut short by him pointing his hand to the sky and firing energy into the clouds which then manifests into Bahamut Sin

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Would you like me to go away now, Satoh? ^^;

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 6th August 2005 02:21

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

aside, i would assume that there are incantations involved with casting of magic from materia. the spell "silence" (contained in the "seal" materia) is present and fully functional in ff7. of course, this brings up an interesting conundrum regarding the referenced scenes from advent children. i suppose we should chalk that one up to inconsistency? then again, it's possible that, given that materia use is instantaneous (in contrast with chanted magic in previous ff games), the user simply had to vociferate in some fashion the spell he wishes to use, perhaps by saying the name of the spell, such that the materia knows which particular magic to call upon.

perhaps aeris' prayer for holy is a subset (albeit a particularly long subset, but i imagine it fits the bill considering the spell's power) or ff7 chanting.

No sense in telling you to go away, your site proves you have philosofy on the matter, just ease up on the 'it's the programming' we already know that... By the way what I said mentioning your site was meant as a compliment but turned into rant by some means... But also where did the Black mages go in this game? Aerith was the white mage, cait sith was either the red or the blue mage, but who fills the spot of black mage?? I say these based on the mindset and stats of these characters.(Yuffie's the theif, Cloud's the warrior, Tifa's the fighter... etc) I guess, would it be Nanaki? Anyone notice Cloud has a nack for falling into other dimensions, and ending up in other Square games?(Ehrgeiz, Tactics, mentioned in IX...)

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forget it I haven't even read the contract, I'm not signing.

I take supposed character classes as such:
Cloud: warrior/fighter
Tifa: martial artist
Barret: gunner
Aeris: white mage + geomancer
Red XIII: fighter + geomancer
Yuffie: (haven't seen her in-game yet)
Cait Sith: gambler
Cid: dragoon (haven't seen him in-game yet)
Vincent: (haven't seen him in-game yet)

As for Cloud appearing in other games, I'd say it's due less to his apparent ability to transcent dimensions (along with Sephiroth), but more due to Square's milking cash cows.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

As for the "black mage" slot, is it just me who ALWAYS delegated Vincent to that role? His Magic stat has always been very nice, and as far as I'm concerned, he fills the role of black mage of sorts very well.

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

He always seemed like something they through in as an afterthought, a cool one, but still, like combining sephiroth with nanaki and makin him all vampiric and such... he's part monster, he's got NO personality... but no real purpose as a character...

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forget it I haven't even read the contract, I'm not signing.

Quote (Satoh @ 5th August 2005 21:49)

But also where did the Black mages go in this game? Aerith was the white mage, cait sith was either the red or the blue mage, but who fills the spot of black mage?? I say these based on the mindset and stats of these characters.(Yuffie's the theif, Cloud's the warrior, Tifa's the fighter... etc) I guess, would it be Nanaki?
(...)
Anyone notice Cloud has a nack for falling into other dimensions, and ending up in other Square games?(Ehrgeiz, Tactics, mentioned in IX...)

I've always made a "summoner" out of him in my game. Dunno, just seemed right for absolutely no reason. My magic was otherwise spread out among my characters, so, personally, I've never actually had a mage.

Asides from a handfull of tiny details (such as stats, weapons, and limits; the latter which practically all boil down to dealing direct damage) there's very little difference between the characters. This is largely due to the materia system's biggest flaw: that anyone can become anything instantly by equipping them with materia.

There's no building up a character to be a mage, you can make a fighter-type out of them instantly and give your burly fighter-ish character all of the good offense magic materia. Poof, insta-mage. The concept of classes doesn't really exist in FF7 so much as a sub-variety of class "tendencies" where the kind of materia a character has equipped at the time determines what they tend towards.

Then again, there's also the storyline role each character has. Yuffi, for instance, is an obvious ninja. Cloud's a SOLDIER (...well, yeah. Depends how you look at it.) Tifa's a martial artist. Cait Sith's a fortune teller. Aeris is a flowergirl. The problem with this is that many of these aren't even remotely descriptive when it comes to "classes." The kind of classes this discussion centers around, that is.

Because of storyline issues, we're unfortunately going to have to chalk up "being in other games" as a "it was made that way" thing otherwise we'd end up with very impossible situations. Square just wanted to use a popular character, and picked the main character of their best-selling RPG.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

FFT's Cloud, for instance, is still looking for a man in a black cape, so it would have to take place during FF7's timeframe. Which doesn't match up very well with FF7's events at all.

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 6th August 2005 18:35

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

I always used Mr. Valentine as my black mage. He had good magic ability and the glove seemed to fit (on the hand that isn't golden). I also had him with some summons- namely the Bahamuts...It just depends what you want you characters to be, I guess. That's the beauty of the Materia system; Customization without all the waiting. It also can be viewed as it's downfall as Silverlance pointed out.

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Where does the buster sword go when Cloud puts it away? And yet you can see it on Zack's back...

Everyone knows that storing things in your arse is a much lauded SOLDIER ability..."storing things" includes one's own head.

I'm a Mag Roader now, MILK!, I love gaining levels! *does FFVI level up dance*

This post has been edited by GooseKnight on 6th August 2005 18:45

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"You broke my f***ing sitar, mother f***er."
-Anton A. Newcombe

"Yet another 'use your sword to magically deliver death from above' character comes in somewhere between the Living Cabbage and Milkmaid character options." -red_beard_neo

I believe square at one point said that it was unknown whether it was the real cloud or not in something having to do with tactics...

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forget it I haven't even read the contract, I'm not signing.

Lighten up (no critisim intended to anyone), because it's just a game. *IMO* the FF series revolves around imagination so just be creative. If you think the phoenix down is a feather, then it's a feather. When i use phoenix downs I try to think that the Phoenix is flying over my char's and providing them with life (Sounds wierd, huh?). Just have fun and believe what you want because in the end (remembers those cheesy commercials) YOU decide what YOU do ... and um... Don't do Drugs

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Lie in the dark --- where the shadows run from themselves.



Hate the sin --- Love the sinner

The thing is Square is actually kind of uptight about the way things were meant to be interpreted... but this game is full of poor translation, therefor it merely seems like it's open for creativity of imagination, when it's really more trying to decifer what they meant. (Plus everything in these games revolves around some culture's myths as a guideline... this one's is the Norse)

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forget it I haven't even read the contract, I'm not signing.

I see what you mean Satoh but *IMO* i don't think Square-soft/Square-enix base parts of the game from mythology... Although if they do, I think they should make a greek resemebled one. --> Proud Greek here <--

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Lie in the dark --- where the shadows run from themselves.



Hate the sin --- Love the sinner

Ever heard of Eidolons, they should be part of Greek mythology If I'm not mistaken(deeply sorry if I am though)... Take a look at FFIX, heavy greek and roman influance there... Norse mythology also effects that one, and indeed FFVII Advent Children with the presence of Fenrir, mythologically it was the godlike wolf that swallowed Odin, (yet another influance to both VII and IX) the Midgar Zolom is a giant snake who's name is actually in the same language as the myths still, just changed a bit, it should be the Midgard solmr (the 2nd o and r are optional...), who's actual name is Jormungand, Midgard is the land of humans, Niflheim is the hell of ice, and of course Ragnarök is the myth about the "Doom of the powers"(powers meaning gods in this case) The one game I can't find any real stuff for is VIII, nothing unique to it... maybe Adel is something mythological... (Shiva and Ifreet are Hindu and Persian respectivly I think) so there's what I can think of at the moment, read up on it , and play FFIX...

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forget it I haven't even read the contract, I'm not signing.

FFIX sucked, and the only reason I played as much as I did, was because of the Tetra Master, and thanx to the FFXI add-on, i can play tetra master there. + the 3rd disc wouldn't run... somewhere after the queen person dies. so

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Lie in the dark --- where the shadows run from themselves.



Hate the sin --- Love the sinner

well, i'd like to point out that of all the final fantasys i've played 7-10, they have all mythologies in them - not just norse, greek, whatever, 7 included - most of the monsters are pulled from all around
and the midgar zolom was not the snake that wrapped around the world -Jormungand is the name of the world serpent

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-In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams
Slow and steady wont win at the gold saucer
-me

You want me to post the entire myth here to prove it?

Edit

"Ragnarok ("Doom of the Gods"), also called Gotterdammerung, means the end of the cosmos in Norse mythology. It will be preceded by Fimbulvetr, the winter of winters. Three such winters will follow each other with no summers in between. Conflicts and feuds will break out, even between families, and all morality will disappear. This is the beginning of the end.

The wolf Skoll will finally devour the sun, and his brother Hati will eat the moon, plunging the earth [into] darkness. The stars will vanish from the sky. The cock Fjalar will crow to the giants and the golden cock Gullinkambi will crow to the gods. A third cock will raise the dead.

The earth will shudder with earthquakes, and every bond and fetter will burst, freeing the terrible wolf Fenrir. The sea will rear up because Jormungand, the Midgard Serpent, is twisting and writhing in fury as he makes his way toward the land. With every breath, Jormungand will stain the soil and the sky with his poison. The waves caused by the serpent's emerging will set free the ship Naglfar, and with the giant Hymir as their commander, the giants will sail towards the battlefield. From the realm of the dead a second ship will set sail, and this ship carries the inhabitants of hell, with Loki as their helmsman. The fire giants, led by the giant Surt, will leave Muspell in the south to join against the gods. Surt, carrying a sword that blazes like the sun itself, will scorch the earth.

Meanwhile, Heimdall will sound his horn, calling the sons of Odin and the heroes to the battlefield. From all the corners of the world, gods, giants, dwarves, demons and elves will ride towards the huge plain of Vigrid ("battle shaker") where the last battle will be fought. Odin will engage Fenrir in battle, and Thor will attack Jormungand. Thor will victorious, but the serpent's poison will gradually kill the god of thunder. Surt will seek out the swordless Freyr, who will quickly succumb to the giant. The one-handed Tyr will fight the monstrous hound Garm and they will kill each other. Loki and Heimdall, age-old enemies, will meet for a final time, and neither will survive their encounter. The fight between Odin and Fenrir will rage for a long time, but finally Fenrir will seize Odin and swallow him. Odin's son Vidar will at once leap towards the wolf and kill him with his bare hands, ripping the wolf's jaws apart.

Then Surt will fling fire in every direction. The nine worlds will burn, and friends and foes alike will perish. The earth will sink into the sea.

After the destruction, a new and idyllic world will arise from the sea and will be filled with abundant supplies. Some of the gods will survive, others will be reborn. Wickedness and misery will no longer exist and gods and men will live happily together. The descendants of Lif and Lifthrasir will inhabit this earth.

Ragnarök does not mean "Twilight of the Gods"; that phrase is the result of a famous mistranslation. "Ragnarökr" or "Ragnarøkr" means "doom of the powers" or "destruction of the powers" (where "powers" means "gods"). "

This post has been edited by Satoh on 8th August 2005 01:41

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forget it I haven't even read the contract, I'm not signing.

Quote (Malshun @ 7th August 2005 17:25)

and the midgar zolom was not the snake that wrapped around the world -Jormungand is the name of the world serpent

I may be confusing mythologies, but wasn't the serpent that curled around the world and bit its own tail Uroburos (or a variant spelling of the precending)?

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Oh pardon, I beleive I misread that statment Malshun... but the Midgard solmr is indeed Jormungand. You were diputing the wording of my earlier comment, not the myth itself. My apologies. I beleive you are correct SilverLance.

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forget it I haven't even read the contract, I'm not signing.

Quote (Silverlance @ 7th August 2005 20:49)

Quote (Malshun @ 7th August 2005 17:25)

and the midgar zolom was not the snake that wrapped around the world -Jormungand is the name of the world serpent

I may be confusing mythologies, but wasn't the serpent that curled around the world and bit its own tail Uroburos (or a variant spelling of the precending)?

You're a little confused there, Silver. The Uroboros is more of a symbol than anything. As is best known, originally, it was not actually part of a Mythology, though it has come to be represented in some. Jormungandr of Norse Mythology is just one such representation (it also went around the world and grasped its tail in its teeth).

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 8th August 2005 04:54

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

I seem to remember there being a beta version of something in FFVII's debug room name Uroburos, but I don't remember what it was.

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forget it I haven't even read the contract, I'm not signing.