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One of my biggest ocmplaints about the tactics game was the fact that you could not 'turn to the dark side' so to speak. I don't remember quite how many times the Shrine Knights asked you to join them, but think if you could have actually made the choice. It would have been awesome. First off- Ramza could change his stupid sprite (I hated ramza's sprites) and adopt the Shrine Knight armor. (though I don't know what color overcloth he would use) And he couold actually have a holy stone and use it. And I know what you experts like me are thinking "The stones chose their bodies" who says the stones never 'chose' ramza? he just kind of took all of them. And his body is definately suitable - considering he bests every last one of the shrine knights. What do you guys think? and wold you have joined if you could have?

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[img]http://img83.exs.cx:81/img83/2/ramzaanddelita2rayni7wx.jpg[/img]

Yeah, it would certainly add to the replayability of the game somewhat! I doubt that I would have chose to join them the first time around, I couldnt have faced doing that to Agrias, Mustadio and the gang, but it would be great to play the game again with an alternate option on the storyline!

I quite like Ramza's sprites, they are inconspicous and not as bling as the Shrine Knights. Like a real warrior would wear, you know. It would be cool to see him change, although you would have to have a lot of choices in the game, becasue Ramza is just too darn righteous to ever have contemplated turning evil.

Great idea though!

It surprises me to say this, but no. Ramza seems far better suited for the role of the good guy.

yea, If Ramza did turn into a Lucani, then there would be no one to fight off the evil Lucavi,
I think Ramza in his time is forming his own braves to fight against the Lucani.
and the Shrine knights.
and were some of you guys were glad that

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

altho Meliadoul is one of the shrine knights, she did fight against Ramza then later fight on his side.

and also,he is also clamed a Heretic by the Chrurch for the "murder" of Cardinal Draclau, who was turned into a Lucani monster.
I think the Chrurch beleve that Ramza is a high threat to them and wanted him dead. if Ramza did join the shine knights, would the Chrurch and other shrine knights treat him like a family or dirt? The Chrurch was secretly supporting the Lucavi and revenge on Ramza for killing many of their guys. He knows too much about the war going on and plans to remove him so the truth behind the Lion war can never be founded out and Deilta is clamed that he did EVERYTHING and made him the hero of the lion war. that do you think of that?

There was a similar discussion going on in the FF4 forum a while ago, about choosing to keep Cecil a Dark Knight. The answer to "would I want to" do either is of course not. The plot collapses with Ramza going to the dark side, it's not like there would be a new string of possibilities. 1 battle, max: kill your party and any other good guys. Game Over. Who would be left to fight? And what would be the the draw in doing so? Just to do it?

I liked the plot the way it was, and see no reason to have offered any change so drastic. Smaller plot changes where the path splits for a while but then rejoins the main path, sure; but not something that basically defeats the purpose of the entire story, no.

if ramza was a shrine knight then he still wouldn't be unique
at least with squire he's got ULTIMA

and also the sense you're putting it in reminds me of peer pressure
Do you want to join us and lose your soul to some demon, and live as a useless crony?

Do you want to smoke pot and kill your brain cells, slow your reactions, and thrash your lungs?

No.

No.

and also why would he want to be enslaved by some demon who is weaker than him
remember ramza didn't win just because he was the hero of the game, he won because he set out to DO IT, and not make some feeble attempt like the shrine knights who believed they were weaker than some demon, never doubt yourself
and do what you set out to do. those are the keys to success

That is why i love the origonal tactics, Ramza represents someone who fought for what he knew, was

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

considered weaker than his brothers for being from a different mother

and proved everyone who held that opinion wrong, also he did it without aquiring any specialized class, he doesn't need a fancy title such as shrine knight to know he can kick some tail

This post has been edited by Cloud_Strife510 on 17th July 2005 02:47

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"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"

Yeah, I don't see Ramza being evil, even potentially. It's kind of funny to think about.

One "old-school" element I truly enjoyed in FFT was the feeling that you were playing a book (and not a "choose-your-own-adventure" book, either). You're a character in it, yeah, but the story is unfolding how it actually "happened." You don't get to control the essentials of plot and characterization, which yes, damn it, I like. It implies a respect for the story being told -- it's not just there for you to mess around in, like with a Grand Theft Auto game or something.

This post has been edited by L. Cully on 17th July 2005 11:38

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Some ghost of me might greet my son
the day he is delivered.


Eternal Sleep, Track 1-1: The Blue Planet

Ramza got some choices in the game , like saving Algus as a priority ot the chocobo Boko, FFtactics can't be other way, but I wanted to join Izlude in that fight, he got a good point. Guess that Ramza just follow his heart.

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"Its no cheating if you don't get caught"

If ramza could have turned to the dark side i wouldnt have because it ruins the whole concept of the story but if there was a way to make a complete story while making ramza a bad guy then yes i would have had ramza on the dark side (being a bad guy is always better than being a good guy anyway)

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"To be forgotten is worst than death." Freya , FF9

"How do you prove that you exist...? Maybe we dont exist." Vivi, FF9

I think that a choices system would have been great, no matter which way you chose. And who could possibly argue that any other excuse to play FFT for the zillionth time has to be good overall?

Quote (Moglv99 @ 17th July 2005 14:12)

Ramza got some choices in the game , like saving Algus as a priority ot the chocobo Boko, FFtactics can't be other way, but I wanted to join Izlude in that fight, he got a good point. Guess that Ramza just follow his heart.

Yep. Exactly. It even affects your Brave.

But, yeah. Not Good or Evil choices, but maybe...other ones. Kinda like in Tactics Ogre. Not to say I'm comparing the two, because that'd be painfullly insulting to FFT.

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Currently Playing: Guitar Hero, Shadow of the Colossus

Quote (Mewmon @ 16th July 2005 11:15)

yea, If Ramza did turn into a Lucani, then there would be no one to fight off the evil Lucavi,
I think Ramza in his time is forming his own braves to fight against the Lucani.
and the Shrine knights.
and were some of you guys were glad that

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

altho Meliadoul is one of the shrine knights, she did fight against Ramza then later fight on his side.

and also,he is also clamed a Heretic by the Chrurch for the "murder" of Cardinal Draclau, who was turned into a Lucani monster.
I think the Chrurch beleve that Ramza is a high threat to them and wanted him dead. if Ramza did join the shine knights, would the Chrurch and other shrine knights treat him like a family or dirt? The Chrurch was secretly supporting the Lucavi and revenge on Ramza for killing many of their guys. He knows too much about the war going on and plans to remove him so the truth behind the Lion war can never be founded out and Deilta is clamed that he did EVERYTHING and made him the hero of the lion war. that do you think of that?

they wouldn't have found him to be a threat if he joined them now would they? Cardinal Draclau very plainly asked Ramza to join. I just think it would have been cool if he did. And then you and Draclua had to kill your whole party or something like that. And then since you have to do jobs as a shrine knight (without much protection) you would get a special class or something.

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[img]http://img83.exs.cx:81/img83/2/ramzaanddelita2rayni7wx.jpg[/img]

it wouldve been so sweet to have ramza become totally badass with the shrine knights but then he didnt.

In addition, I agree with Cloud_Strife510, Ramza doesnt really need any special training like his brothers Zalbag and Dycedarg to gain fancyism (made-up belief). He may be a regular squire but damnit, he fought for what he believed in.

He wasn't like Delita who later used people to gain prestige and nobility, or gafgarion, who only fought for the sake of money. Also, he would never abandon anyone. For example, at goug machine city(?) where mustadio was being pursued and ramza's gang shows up. You were given two options, save mustadio, or leave the place. No matter what you picked, you will always end up fighting his pursuers becuz ramza has a kind heart and wouldnt let the poor man die, Quote: (Remind me if i quoted wrong.)
[1st Choice] Ramza: "We must save him! He could help us find the holy stones."
[2nd Choice] Ramza: "We may not know him, but we cannot allow him to die like this!"
I probably quoted wrong, but you noe what I'm talking about.

Ramza couldn't become a bad guy even if he tried, his spirit is too damn righteous and caring to do anything evil, or remotely evil.

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"You say life is sacred, makes you feel noble. Well, then let me ask you this. If everything that ever lived is dead, and everything that's living is gonna die, where does the sacred part come in?"

- George Carlin

Just a few pointers: it wasn't at goug machine city - it was before that, but I can't remember the name for the life of me. and the choices were something like: WE have to help him!
and " Don't want to get involved..."

aside from that- about ramza's swuire class, I have said it before and will say it again: it just isn't gratifying enough. you know what- I'll take the guts skill (it isn't that bad) and even Ramza's slightly better than average stats just for a different class name. Think about it:

does a squire beat holy knights, and dark knights, and sorcerors, and undead armies, and legendary demons? no - squires don't do those things, so it doesn;t even make sense to call him a squire.

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[img]http://img83.exs.cx:81/img83/2/ramzaanddelita2rayni7wx.jpg[/img]

it just goes to show you...you dont special things to achieve what you want. You just need focus, determination and bravery and Ramza had all that.

[QUOTE]does a squire beat holy knights, and dark knights, and sorcerors, and undead armies, and legendary demons? no - squires don't do those things, so it doesn;t even make sense to call him a squire.

as a matter of fact..yes it does. Their trying to say that even when you are at a low, you are still able to do great things. Squires are the lowest rank in war times, and fuedal hierarchy cuz of their weak ability to fight and that they needed to learn. Ramza never had a weakness, but he did learn alot from the battles he fought. The reason Ramza stayed a squire because he was thought to be useless and weak [except his father balbanes] and mostly by zalbag and dycedarg but that didnt affect him at all. In fact, he didn't even care about rank, all he cared about is his family and what he did. If you are already given a path in life, why change it into something completely different? I bet Ramza kept asking himself that the whole time, and at the same time, said "no, I won't change."

If it makes you feel better about your opinion, I'd say if I was forced to make Ramza a special class, it would be a squire knight. Ain't the best idea, but its better than a regular squire right?

But honestly, leaving him as a squire fits him completely.

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"You say life is sacred, makes you feel noble. Well, then let me ask you this. If everything that ever lived is dead, and everything that's living is gonna die, where does the sacred part come in?"

- George Carlin

yea, and besides, there are many other jobs that Ramza can work with really well.
thiefs to get stuff from enemies
Monk- good hand to hand combat
Summoner: with well learned white magic and he's alright.
samurai- great for defence and offence. (my favorite "normal" job class)

you aren't listening- - I'm jsut saying that Squire is completely ungratifying, whether it fits him or not, it makes me feel like just that, a squire. and as you said-= squires are the weakest of all the classes.

- and yes ramza is pretty much good at any class, but if he changes away from his base class, that sort of defeats the purpose of him being a unique character huh?

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[img]http://img83.exs.cx:81/img83/2/ramzaanddelita2rayni7wx.jpg[/img]

i guess you're right. A squire is really bland compared to Agrias or Zalbag, who are holy and arc knights respectively. How can someone so important to the story have such a disappointing moral level? Squaresoft shouldve gave him a unique class of his own. Did Ramza become a knight like his dad told him too? Technically, he did, but in terms of rank and appearance, he didnt. He stays a squire the whole game unless you change him. If he was like Delita, who changed classes several times, that would be cool.

If you were called upon to decide Ramza's class instead of a regular squire, what would you recommend?

Personally, I'd say a Squire Knight. Theres squire in it, but at least he has the title of a actual knight.

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"You say life is sacred, makes you feel noble. Well, then let me ask you this. If everything that ever lived is dead, and everything that's living is gonna die, where does the sacred part come in?"

- George Carlin

That'd be a new topic, but his Squire class is basically a Squire with Knight's stats and equipment with a higher magic level. I, personally, like how you can change the main character's class, equipment, and abilities instead of them being pre-chosen. You don't necessarily HAVE to be a Squire with swords... I, personally, like making him a Samurai with Black Magic (and, hopefully the Masamune) or a Black Mage/White Mage combo.

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I didn't read all the post but responding to the first one...I don't really agree. The game itself is telling us a story, and we are just playing along. I like it better that way, because if we had choices some parts wouldn't make sense. I thought Ramza looked great, I really liked his final armor- Though I wish I could see the original art for it. It's better off just being a story and not our choice to change

Quote (FabulousFreebird @ 25th July 2005 15:33)

That'd be a new topic, but his Squire class is basically a Squire with Knight's stats and equipment with a higher magic level...

I disagree. I'm pretty certain his class status changes throughout the game. In the first chapter Ramza the Squire can equip hats and clothes and Squire weapons, in the second and third chapters he adds armor, helmets, and shields to that list, and in chapter four he gets to put on capes and wield Knight Swords. His stats are basically exactly like a normal Squire's, except pumped up. He has above-average MA, PA, HP, MP, and Speed, no particular stat standing out, but better than any generic. I agree that Squire isn't the best title for him, though, maybe it would have been appropriate to change the title as the game went on, as well. Something like Cadet for Ch. 1, Mercenary for 2, Heretic for 3, and Hero for 4, but I'm pulling those names out of my ass; he's a Squire, but better than any other Squire.

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END SPOILER

The choice could've been put at the very end (much like in BOF III), and then you have to fight against your own party, which would of course include Thungergod Cid. Basically I think it would be about five hundred times harder than just fighting Altima, but you'd get that warm squishy feeling that comes from knowing you just sunk the entire world into eternal darkness. (Or as in OB you become a Dark Emperor instead of Delita getting to become the White King).

I would have joined the shrine knights it would be fun to kill Delita seeming that hes a double agent

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I personally think that ramza should just stay on the good side.It just doesn't fit his personality to join the shrine knights if u know what i mean.And his armor is just fine to me

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