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One of my favorite aspects of playing RPGs is all of the systems they use to handle battle, levelling, even menus and stuff. There are so many ways to do it and I enjoy comparing the methods from one game to another. SO.. I was thinking the other day about what systems/setups/etc. I liked from all the games I've played that could be combined into one uber-RPG, Frankenstein style, to create the "perfect" RPG setup. I'll throw some out there and hopefully y'all will share your opinions as well.

Mandatory features (these should just be standard for any RPG made these days):
>In-game help (like FFT, and so many more; let me press a button and see the characteristics of every weapon, armor, item, etc.
>Full party representation at shops (Show me who can equip something, even if they're not in the party, or better yet, even if I'm looking at something in the item screen a la FF6)
>Many more that I can't think of

Now for the fun stuff. My favorite systems/setups:

Levelling up: I like the way the SaGa series (FFLegend, SaGa Frontier_, etc.) does this. Instead of set levels that you are aware of, and know how much more you have to go to level up (unrealistic), you are randomly given stat boosts depending on your actions in battle. Use a heavy weapon and get STR points, use a light skillful weapon and get AGI, use magic and your Mana goes up, etc.
You could do it like the Seiken Densetsu (Secret/Legend of Mana, etc.) series also, where you are given weapon levels, and the more you use a weapon the better you get at it.

Menus: How you navigate the interface. My favorite all time is the SD (Secret/etc. of Mana) way of doing it, with the heads-up circle around your character, that allows you to instantly look at your equipment, browse spells, or access screens that show your stats. It work in an action-RPG environment, but I don't know how well it'd work in a standard RPG interface. The worst ever, btw, is also from that series, Seiken Densetsu III, with one big screen that uses a panel-type interface that allows you to go from the main "middle" screen to all of the other ones you'd need, it's slow and clumsy.

Party Size/Setup: Final Fantasy IV. Despite all of the detractors, the row-order system works fine (if you don't like it, it's because you don't understand it, and it's not complicated..) and makes more sense than the other methods. It's illogical to have all members in the back row, because than that becomes the defacto front row. You should have to have stronger people in the front row and the weak behind. Also, let's stop this 3 person party nonsense and get back to the days of at least 4. But that's just me.

Abilities and Skills: I like the FF5/FFT way of doing it, where you learn skills based on time spent using them, and then once learned can equip them into slots to use later. The FF7 materia and FF9 ability systems aren't as good, especially FF7's. So I can just give this mastered materia to anyone and have them use it perfectly and wield god-like powers? Right.. All of the characters become exactly the same, too homogenized. FF6's system was OK in that each character had one special ability, so perhaps a combination of special and learned abilities would work.

Other things I liked that don't fit into categories
Chrono Trigger's progression; instead of different continents or worlds, different times within the same world where your actions affect events later. Pretty cool.

..And i'm tired of writing now. Thoughts? What would your perfect RPG be composed of?

You realize that no one can agree on everything, you know?

lol

Moderator Edit

Gotta say I'm getting tired of your trolling and posting stuff that doesn't add to threads. I think you can have a +20%. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 7th June 2005 11:41

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"Dance, water, dance!"
-Demyx, Kingdom Hearts II

"I met my love before I was born..."
-AFI, 'Love Like Winter' from 'Decemberunderground'

Currently Playing: Guitar Hero, Shadow of the Colossus

I followed your format, imperial, and it's just brief.

Mandatory features:
>Format of in-game help from FFVIII: I liked how thorough and elective it was. It was just as good or even better than the manual.
>3D Model try it on as you buy from Front Mission 3: Not only did you see how the new stuff fit, but it was on a rotating, 3D model to show you what it would look like in battle.

Levelling up: The SaGa Series didn't have levels, which was good, and gave empowerment to stats directly. Also, there shouldn't be a cap or threshold on how strong you get. If there's a ceiling with customization, and you work hard enough, you can make everyone the same. Without this ceiling, unique stats of characters continues to be unique.

Menus: The menu from FFX has the most refinement in how objects displayed, and where they displayed. Also, it was a rather upbeat and colorful menu, not a drab monotone other RPGs have.

Party Size/Setup: Having three active members causes the gameplay to condense variety and specialty. Instead of specialists with unique abilities and contributions to the team effort, characters are more like jacks-of-all-trades. The active party should be four or more. The total party size should always be more than twice the size of the active party. For the love of all that is good and holy, make sure to add a very cool character whenever a miserably stupid character somehow makes the cut into the team.

Abilities and Skills: I'm all for customization, but there's always the threat of the characters becoming the same, ultimate end. When there's customization (such as Sphere Grid), don't ever pool the customization for all characters. Make sure each character has his own world of customization, thus that character is STILL indispensible.

Setting: I know how important fantasy-medieval is to many people. However, if there's ever anything not medieval (robots, computers, aliens, etc.), make a very well-reasoned explanation for why it is present. FFIV kind of threw you the high-tech dungeons and nobody in the game seemed to notice. Is not a place where computers line the wall going to freak a knight out?

Here's my take:

Mandatory Features

>A job system that lays out the classes
>An airship (or something that functions as the same) that you can steer
>Grid-system battle format, none of this "standing in place" nonsense.
>Being able to walk around in towns and talk to NPCs, shop, etc.
>You can't walk into citizens' houses and steal their possessions (at least in daylight).

Levelling Up

Although this would make a weird hybrid, you combine the FFT job system with the FFX Sphere Grid, only making a different path for each class instead of having one huge one where everyone can learn everyone else's abilities. Getting JP could be used to further your skills and stats.

Since the old-time menus are nice, too, this might be an option that can be put into effect at the beginning of a new game, for all the players who've grown into such a routine with the old style. It might add some flavor to the levelling up, but the most important part is that there isn't any way to circumvent stats or skills through power-levelling. I like to call that the anti-strategy.

Menus

Full-fledged, know-it-all tutorials and decent, concise in-battle menus, that have the option to "check up on" any ability you don't understand, a la FFT.

In-battle menus would be initially compact, but could be explained further in depth if you turn an option on. Battle systems would be in-depth but not necessarily so; it would be possible for a tactician and Joe Barbarian to play and they could both understand in whatever terms they needed (hi-level vs. bash bad guy).

Party Size / Setup

As large as you want (Disgaea) but with only a set amount that can enter battle at one time (FFT). Generic, special, and NPC characters can be recruited into your party for money or items, and there is no limit that would force any of the ones you've already acquired out like in some other games. Party limits force strategy, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Abilities and Skills

Through the Job System/Sphere Grid system I mentioned earlier, you could navigate and learn class-only skills (and, perhaps, non-transferables) that would make each character truly unique. Generic characters would have the option to upgrade to better classes through a regiment or by passing some trial(s), while special characters would gain extra unique skills by participating in sidequests and by following their own "tiny plotline". A few people might end up having the same skills, but they wouldn't be able to use it to the same potency as the other, which makes a stat cap (i.e. 255) useless in terms of formidabililty.

Another thing that might be represented well is that each "job sphere grid" would be completely randomized, with different abilities or a different order.

Setting

I liked the revolutionary age of FF9, but the Chrono Trigger system of having the same world revisited in different eras is also one of the most appealing. Neo-industrial ages are fairly boring (FF7, FF8) to me, so they wouldn't have an entire spotlight given to themselves, except by way of visiting a futuristic age through the CTrigger method.

Seriously, I like riding around on crappy airships like the Hilde Garde 3.

Other

>Particularly violent battles would show the results on the world map (overview mode).
>Vehicles could break down and would need to be repaired if monsters attacked.
>Characters would have compatibility stats with all other characters, and they could be reduced if, say, someone gives friendly fire or doesn't talk to them outside of battle.
>Repeatedly killing monster with certain characters gives better adjustment to their techniques, status effects, damage, etc. If Bill kill 100 dragons, the next one that comes along isn't going to give him the slip with something every other one did, y'know?
>Monsters would change their tactics, formations, appearance. They'd heal each other if one got hurt, run away if they were almost dead, surrender if they couldn't escape, grow violent if they saw no other way out, etc. It would depend on their type (i.e. a cat might surrender while a Giant Death Behemoth would probably try to kill you still).
>Equipment could be reconfigured, remodeled, overhauled, and customized!
>Bounties/propositions could be taken and would have an effect on how other characters reacted in battle (i.e. killing monster proposition would give a skill or new tactic towards that monster).
>Characters in your army that died could reappear as enemies in certain places and fight you, or maybe "haunt" with your party still and be an advice-giver. It would add a twist, I think.
>A village full of an assortment of animals and demi-humans, not unlike Marbule in Chrono Cross. Monsters that you make surrender could live here, mingle, etc. (but not like, say, pay property taxes, etc. Not that in-depth, folks).
>The scenery would aid to the battle. If Bill blows up the entire area with a spell, a cliffside would crumble onto the battle and deal damage; if near a seaside, part of the battle area may fall into the sea. Mother Nature shouldn't come out unscathed in everything.

This post has been edited by Shotgunnova on 6th June 2005 10:56

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

Mandatory features:

> Some kind of world map that allows you to explore and take in the setting; a vehicle like an airship is a plus.
> A differentiated variety of characters, whether it's through locked progressive classes like SD3 or single character setups like hundreds upon hundreds of other games. At least eight characters that can learn a good number of unique skills and abilites; possible overlapping of skills is permissable, but I think that a freewheeling system like a full job/class system or a sphere grid limits one's strategy by rewarding dedication (to leveling up and creating uber-characters) more than intelligence.
> Visuals that are pleasing to the eye, not necessarily through graphical prowess or detailed artwork. Simple cartoony graphics can be just as appealing as photorealistic graphics, as long as the style fits the setting and story. There is a reason why Breath of Fire 3 is so much more appealing-looking than Parasite Eve (well-done simple cartoons vs. badly done realism).
> Format of in-game help like Final Fantasy Tactics. The tutorial was a chore to sit through, but it answers any and all questions about a somewhat complex battle system. Every game should have something like it, because let's face it, no one wants to read a manual.
> A Battle system can be almost anything, but should feature some kind of positioning; whether certain attacks cause you to move into vulnerable positions, the system is a strategic sphere-grid, or completely free-flowing action, position should be just as important as, say, MP.
> High numbers for HP and damage, low numbers for MP/SP/TP. Everyone likes big numbers but having a ton of MP lets you use spells wastefully whenever you wish. Even if MP-replenishing items are abundant, MP management absolutely should be an element of strategy.

Levelling up: I really didn't like the SaGa or FF IIj format of stat-levels, because there has never been a game that balances such a system by setting the growth rates as such that you won't be able to progress the game at a normal rate (without nitpicky levelling-up) and get balanced or sensible stats. I think that the best way to have a level up system is to have a traditional leveling system that features hardcoded level-up stat values. It's boring, but it's one way to make sure it gets done right.

Menus: Too many moving colors or animations in a menu can be distracting, and a partial-screen menu just doesn't work. I'm also not the biggest fan of menus that fade the screen out while taking place, as it makes it very hard to see certain words. I am, however, also a fan of character portraits. In-battle menus should give you a full view of the action and take up less than a third of the screen. Basic menu systems that I really like include Final Fantasy X, Skies of Arcadia, Chrono Trigger, and Chrono Cross. Draw what conclusions you will.

Party Size/Setup: I think that four members is the perfect size. It gives a good deal of freedom in party design while not giving so many members that battles can become much more tedious and often too easy. I agree with SaintWeapon's statement that the total party size should be at least double the battle party size. Ten characters for a party of four seems about right.

Abilities and Skills: Customization is fine, but it should be done within certain limits. While a system like Tactics is tremendously fun, it makes *all* characters generic characters, which is simply a bad thing; not only can every character can turn out like every other character, it is usually too easy to make a super-setup that can rip through anything at the right time. Having differentiated characters creates a need to use each character differently and treat each character differently; having role players instead of generalists creates less freedom of customization but elements of battle strategy by limiting your options. With regard to customization within those abilities, I am a huge fan of both FF IX's Skill Point system and Grandia's skill and magic learning system (like Secret of Mana's of SaGa's but SO much simpler and better).

Setting: Anything that works. My favorite games range from flying pirates to time travel to colorful robots to castles with vampires to rockstar demonslayers to sexy kunoichi; the most important thing about a setting is that it stays varied and interesting and nothing seems out of place.

Unessential Extras:
> At least one dungeon that features multiple parties working together, ie Phoenix Cave, Kefka's Tower, Daccat's Tomb, or what have you.
> At least two seperate battle systems. Whether its on foot and in a ship, on foot and in a gear, I don't care; variety is better.
> Attractive female characters are welcomed, but no overtly sexual ones please. I already have enough of that with Tifa, Lulu, nearly every single fighting game in existence, and more.


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this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

Easy.

Something oldschool from the days of the SNES, before the RPG genre was bastardised and slapped onto every fantasy adventure game with a system that wasn't exclusively first-person shooting. ;) I would explain what I would consider a good RPG system, but since I already have one in developement I'll abstain from describing what could be, but rather what will be.

> Mandatory Features
- Oldschool random encounter/battle transition/battle screen battles driven by menus. No RPG system can be complete without such a system. :)
- While there's no such thing as a 100% open ended game, a storyline that allows MANY branching paths that have an actual impact on the storyline is a must.
- A cross between a skill tree and the job system would be quite good when it comes to abilities. Characters could be customized considerably: why bother learning elemental spells that all do the same thing but only vary in element when you could master one element only but unlock extremely powerful spells? Or why make your fighter into a brutish fighting mindless husk when you could diversify his abilities and be able to form tactics that will leave you constantly planning?
- Sprite-based characters. Sprites offer far more possibilities than polygonal models at the cost of more effort and scaling issues. But hell, gotta have the oldschool feel. :)
- Random encounters that vary in frequency based on your party's level but also challenge you far more than the typical "yawn another slime" encounter should. Random encounters shouldn't be a bore where you mash a button over and over; they should be challenging (though not as much as a boss) yet infrequent.
- Unlockable material. ;)

> Levels
The oldschool methods never failed us in the past! :) Gaining levels should be slightly more customizable than most RPGs make them, however. Also, developement of the skill tree at level ups would give it more of a meaning than just getting higher stats.

> Menus
Character portraits are a must. :) Something intuitive and that allows you to switch between characters without backing out of menus (à-la L/R in some SNES RPGs) would be great. Fancy graphics make the experience more interesting; just staring at a bunch of numbers while you equip your characters can be a little boring.

> Party
Many characters, but only a few being available depending on how you play through the game. The party size should be 4, and opportunities to ditch the main character for some dungeons or events would be very welcomed for people trying to play single character challenges. Also, giving every character a bit of a backstory and some developement through some quests would be a must.

> Abilities and skills
As mentionned before, a job system/skill tree hybrid. But unique for every character, to retain individuality. Nothing sucks more than an RPG where every character is the same save for their graphics and lines in events. Being able to take different paths with your characters would mean every game would involve different tactics and would greatly affect the replay value.

> Setting
I've always been a fan of large-scale wars, à-la FFT, Fire Emblem, or Tactic Ogre. The game I'm making features three chapters, hence three settings.
- A medieval-fantasy setting where neither magic nor technology are dominant (think FF4.)
- A renaissance-ish setting where magic has taken a bit more of a hold on things, though technology is on the rise (think FF6, minus the fact magic is a lost art there.)
- A futuristic setting where magic, along with any religious beliefs, is practically gone. Think... 10 years from now, more or less. ;)
All three settings being along different ages in the game world, and all three being directly linked to one another both through history, world map, and the impact actions in either of the three chapters have.

> Unessential extras
- Minigames. :D
- Unlockable material: music, sprites, artwork, dungeon maps, so forth. Unlockable mini-sidequests too.
- Side quests that last through the entire game (such as the building of Township in BoF2, or collecting the Turtle's Paradise flyers in FF7.)


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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Shinjutsei @ 5th June 2005 19:53)

You realize that no one can agree on everything, you know? lol

Uhh, precisely why I asked for people's opinions on the matter, and everyone else seemed to put forth great ideas.

So far it seems people are all agreeing on some of the more major points, such as customization, in-game help, etc. which thankfully have become part of every new RPG anyway. I'm also pleased to see I'm not the only one who's sick of the "Three's Company" rule in newer Squenix party sizes.

As far as customization goes, I think a hybrid of FF6 (each character has one special ability)/FF9 (each character has a category of special abilities) and FFT (any character can learn anything) seems to be an agreeable way of going about it. I don't like all characters being homogenized into similar mirrors of each other, but I don't like static characters like in FF4 where nothing can be customized either. I guess of all the games I've played FF9 comes the closest, but I wouldn't consider it the ideal by far (and there's many games left for me to play).

Anyway, it's been an interesting discussion and (almost) everyone has had something insightful to say. Also interested in the input of Silverlance (and others) that are developing their own games, as it's cool to see some great ideas going into their projects. Speaking of, and I know they have an entire thread already devoted to this, but I wonder if any of these things are making their way into the Forgotten Story game?

This is kind of the thing I'm aiming for in my Final Fantasy: Alternate Reality project.

abilities

Characters gain abilities by leveling up. Sure, you can 'powerlevel' and gain uber spells or other cool shiz at the beginning of the game, but that makes the game less fun (and I personally dislike powerlevelling). This gets rid of annoying systems of ABP, tech points, magic-learning points, equipping items to learn techniques at slow rates, materia complexing, etc. etc. etc..

Abilities range from traditional magic spells to Pokemon-series-derived magic, to numerous skills derived from character/class abilities of various FF games, to skills derived from the Metroid and Mega Man series, to entirely new skills.

music

A selection of the best, composed anew or taken/revised from existing works from FF, MM, Metroid, Mario, Sonic, and other games/series.

plot

The plot will be designed to pay homage to familiar plot elements and characters. Its inherently political nature already makes reference to FFVII; an old man passing his heritage and knowledge to his granddaughter is complemented musically; General Donald Golbez confronts the protagonists; traitors defect from both sides of a war; one of the villains seeks personal vengeance against a rival protagonist; one character discovers her powerful although latent abilities. One main novel idea, though, is that most characters will be based on real people.

Numerous plot-forks are planned, so that the player's decisions will have a large impact on the plot viewed.

parties

Parties of one to six characters, dependent on the situation. Multiple-party scenarios will be included as well. Total number of playable characters will be around 25, and will include hidden characters.

menus

Emphasis goes on intuitiveness and ease of usage. Menu systems have not been designed yet, but will most likely be similar to those of past FF games. Descriptions will be included for items, weapons, armor, accessories, etc., along with stat changes visible before equipping.

battle system

Hopefully, an advanced version of the one displayed in Chrono Trigger. Similar design, but the characters should be able to move around voluntarily.

setting

Something that looks like the USA of our time.

other

+in-game help
+summons you have to search for
+characters have 'fixed classes' determined by their abilities, as in FFVI
+improvements on FF class design (such as mimic enemy and mimic ally)
+no instant-KO/death attacks
+new 'distract' status
+taxes: yeah, I'm a political junkie, so even though this statement is completely irrelevant, I just had to dump it in (also to avoid "no new elements")
+elements: fire, water, ice, electricity, light, dark, sound, air (and holy if you count certain effects)

In case you're reading this and you've read my posts about FF:AR before and you're thinking "That's not what you said before!", then yes, I've updated stuff and revised stuff, and I'm kinda posting updates through these topics (I should really go back to using my own topics, except what I'm posting is relevant to this thread). If you ever want to ask me about specifics, or would like to help me out with the design (and later, programming) of this game, feel free to e-mail me: glennmagusharvey at gmail dot com (replace 'at' and 'dot' with the appropriate symbols).

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )