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Quote (The Ancient @ 26th May 2005 15:11)

To put it bluntly, you assume too much. I chose my words in the interest of not sparking a religious debate here, not the opposite. A number of you religious types have descended on this thread and decided to start issues where there are none. I don't think anyone here was claiming to know with absolute certainty when the universe began, we are here to share our ideas not refute the ideas of others. I should have never mentioned the word religion in my post but I don't think it would have mattered honestly.

Lighten up.

to put it likewise bluntly, the original suggestion that religious types create semantic loopholes in terms of their faiths to be able to accept whatever novelty mainstream idea comes their way is preposterous and insulting. to these same religious types, the Faith is the Truth. if we are to alter the Faith to cater to our fancies, we risk recreating the same devasting misuses of the Scriptures as we saw in the catholic Church's dark times of indulge-selling and inquisition. the Absolute Truth is the Absolute Truth, and needn't be reworded at the behest of stubborn theories and pop science.

we are indeed here to share our ideas. it's odd that you don't see how it is implicit in your suggestion to religious types of "finding ways to frame it" in the context of their theoligies that the "it" is superior or transcendant to their theologies. the Christians here are merely demonstrating how Biblical theology can "jive" with the stone-solid theories of science just fine -- without any rewording necessary.

Quote (i90east @ 26th May 2005 22:52)

Well when seeing things through a Christian perspective, evolution theory can go one of two ways. I heard a preacher on the radio the other day say that Satan started evolution theory in an evil plot to bring people away from God by promoting a materialistic agenda. I think it's a plausable concept, as crazy as it may sound to non-Christians.

Evolution is either the truth or a deception, and Christians look at Satan as a deceiver. The only way for Christians to not see evolution as being a product of the devil is by adopting the theory and becoming theistic evolutionists. Then the theory is the truth, a good thing. There is no middle ground here, unless I'm missing something.

Keep in mind that God's Word does not come from a single preacher or man.

I disagree, I don't see why it has to be so all or nothing. The Theory of Evolution is not an end all, be all. It is not finished, it can be changed, edited. It is based on observations. I can witness elements of micro-evolution and adaptation myself. The problem that arises is in the macro. This is the primary reason why our planet "has" to be so old, so the slow minor adjustments turn into larger ones and mutate and all that jazz. However, I myself, do not see any reason to believe that species change from one into another. I see no common ancestor in fossil evidence. Therefore I can accept that species adapt to their surroundings to fit their survivalist needs (micro), but will sit out and wait until they come up with something better for inter-speciation (macro). That is the wonder with science, it is never finished.

This is the primary reason why I don't think our planet at least has to be so old, the amount of times that scientists have changed how old our planet is during the past 30 years is ridiculous. The Universe is a whole other can of worms however. Such a wide expanse is just impossible to put a date on. Hubble could be a joke, you know? How can we really know how big the universe is? Ever? I don't think we ever will. Not at least until we devolop hyper-drives, figure out how to use Zero Gravity, and make use of Worm Holes (if they really do exist, has anyone ever read up on these before? I mean wow, I reccomend it.) I CAN say, that as a race as we advance further and further technologically, we will never get bored. I wonder what a nebula looks like up close? Black holes anyone? I like to think of it this way: God created us on Earth which is like our play pen while we grow and become more adept until we found our technological feet. Figuring out all the scientific principles, physics, mathematics, etc. until we're ready to crawl out and venture into the real world aka Space. You thought volcanoes and tornadoes were complex and crazy? Just wait til you get out in the real world.

This post has been edited by Tidu-who on 27th May 2005 08:16

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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

content removed in the interest of preserving civility.

This post has been edited by The Ancient on 27th May 2005 16:10

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

I get so sick of pointless arguing about religion. I grant that it's difficult to extricate something so fundamental as the origin of the Universe from religion, and I respect that there are going to be different and closely held views about it, that will lead to conflict. But it always ends up like this, where three of the four posts before this one were solely about the semantics of western religion and its conflicts with theoretical science.

This is why I get my religion from Kevin Smith.

And this is my notice that this thread is probably going to be closed pretty soon.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 27th May 2005 14:59

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

The argument is probably my fault. If you'd like to discuss things further with me PM is a fair alternative. My official stance on the age of the Universe is this:

It's very old.

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

Quote (Tidu-who @ 26th May 2005 02:44)

I believe that God (a supernatural force at least in some way, shape, or form) created the Universe. People dismiss this belief quite quickly because it's not "scientific". But come on, are you trying to tell me that a little atom of energy is just sitting around chillin, and for SOME REASON decides to explode resulting in our current universe is MORE likely? Why? Because the Universe is expanding? Is that it? Why couldn't God have done that?

I very much agree with Tidu-Who's post. Also, I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who thinks that science and religion can co-exist. It's such a shame that, especially in this country, the two are often pitted against one another.

Like Tidu, I find that such a scientific/religious view is readily dismissed by hardline scientific atheists or religious theologians. Many times, it becomes a zero sum game, without any room for compromise. However, I think it's quite possible to believe in the underlying physics and still see the order of things as adhering to the rules of some external force--God. Like Tidu said, this is a supernatural force in some shape or form, it is not a "person up in the clouds" as has been stated in other threads. I think the latter view is a misconception. I could be wrong, but I don't think any intelligent person conceptualizes God in such a way way. If you think of God as spirit--as an even more than celestial force--it is not so hard to accept the religious with the scientific. I can see this view potentially conflicting with Christianity in that man was created in God's image, but if you take "in God's image" to mean our own spirit energy/souls being modeled after God's own energy, and not simply a bipedal organism, I think that problem is largely reconciled.

Moving away from the discussion of God, as this thread was never intended to become a religious debate, I also find superstring theory very interesting. I'm not going to pretend I completely understand it, because me=not a physicist. My basic understanding of it, however, is that it attempts to reconcile the laws of physics that explain the largest celestial structures with those that explain the smallest molecules.

Quoteth Wikipedia:

Quote

harmonizing the theory of general relativity, which describes gravitation and applies to large-scale structures (stars, galaxies, super clusters), with quantum mechanics which describes the other three fundamental forces acting on the microscopic scale.

Is anyone familiar with the Marvel character Eternity? He is supposed to be the physical embodiment of our universe and he is, essentially, a living organism. The galaxies inside of him are like systems, the solar systems organs, the planets cells, the creatures on those planets atoms, etc. Then, of course, you get to the actual creatures on those planets, which consist of actual systems, organs, cells, atoms, etc.

I'm not saying Marvel hit it on the head, and our universe is a living organism, but it's a fascinating concept. I've always found it incredible how celestial entities seem set up in the same structure as the microscopic ones, i.e. solar systems have planets revolving around a star, atoms have electrons revolving around a nucleus. I'm afraid I can't elaborate. Being more of a right side of the brain person, myself, I tend to learn through literary comprehension, and my math stops at economics and statistics. A more math-minded person could probably provide a more accurate description of superstring theory.

You really get a sense of our own individual insignificance in the grand scheme of things when you consider a topic like this. The gamut of complete knowledge is so far beyond human comprehension.

This post has been edited by MetroidMorphBall on 27th May 2005 22:34

Quote (Tidu-who)

I disagree, I don't see why it has to be so all or nothing.

Macro-evolution either happened or it didn't. The main assertion the theory of evolution makes is that macro-evolution occured. So if soup-to-man evolution occured then the theory as a whole is on the right track towards revealing the truth... if not, the theory is false and misleading.

The only argument here was Goz vs. Ancient. Outside of that we were having a nice discussion. At least I hope everyone feels that way.

Moderator Edit

I do not. In fact, most of your post here only served to potentially further the argument. But since others are not trying to keep it up, the thread is still open. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 28th May 2005 14:18

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Quote (The Ancient @ 27th May 2005 11:10)

It's very old.

I'll agree with either that, or that the answer is 42.

42.

In all seriousness, though, there's the whole big bang theory, which states that our universe began however-so-many bilions of years ago, but then my next question after that is "What happened before time began, then? What happened during times t < 0 ?" And no one has satisfactorily answered that.

Now, as for what I believe: for what I know, the universe could have originated from a big bang the way described by many physicists (whom I usually don't understand). However, though, a deity could have created the universe in such a way to look to scientists like it originated in a big bang, or whatever other way/theory.

Personally, though, I don't really care. (Now let's see if this thread will pique my interest in it...but that's nowhere likely.)

Edit

content removed in the interest of making reference to The Ancient.

Although, speaking of religion, a wise person once said:

"Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself."

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Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 28th May 2005 07:23)

but then my next question after that is "What happened before time began, then? What happened during times t < 0 ?" And no one has satisfactorily answered that.

Now, as for what I believe: for what I know, the universe could have originated from a big bang the way described by many physicists (whom I usually don't understand). However, though, a deity could have created the universe in such a way to look to scientists like it originated in a big bang, or whatever other way/theory.

I would say there are infinite possibilities, as to the way this universe was created and as to what came before it, if indeed there was anything at all.

You could come up with so many different theories that could be plausible, after all when a new universe is created, the laws of physics are likely to change (I think), making things very different indeed.

One idea I greatly enjoy is from the author Terry Pratchett, who suggests that Wizards of a certain university have far too much magic and they need to get rid of it quickly. So what do they do? They create our universe, which they study and are amazed to find how differently it works to theirs.

If universes come into being inside other universes and this is a continuous cycle and the laws for how each universe works changes, then how could we possibly comprehend how everything began at the very start, if there was a very start?

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'Let that be a lesson to all oppressive vegetable sellers.'

The organic mind cannot comprehend the inorganic mind, as much as it thinks it can. Likewise, the mind cannot comprehend the infinite. That's why we use a symbol for it, it is inexpressionable. For example, the universe is supposed to be infinite in size (which compares to infinite in time); and does not simply end at some point. If you went beyond our world and our galaxy, you would never come to an end, a cliff, a board fence that says "END OF THE UNIVERSE" or anything like that. While one could think of certain limitations (a few ideas like the fact that a spherical shape never ends, and the universe is a sphere), that is well beyond our understanding, and probably always will be.

Also, I think one or two people have managed to confuse the universe with reality and paralell universes. This "megaverse" states that there are many versions of what we know, I shall dub these realities. Each reality is independant of the others. But how? If each is infinite, where do the other ones lie? They cannot exist in the same space, which in itself leads to other paradoxes. Then there is the unreal, which invades our live very often (I mean, even imaginary numbers hold a place in high school math). Where does the unreal exist if the real takes up everything?

This is where I have to stop or I'm going to get depressed.

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M777: lightweight 155mm howitzer
3/11 rules over all artillery!

Y'know, bahamut, your first paragraph is similar to something I was thinking about earlier today - about how our minds are trained to think in such simplistic ways to where some things are utterly incomprehensible. For instance: Many believe something had to happen or exist prior to the big bang. A number of people don't have a clue what, but something. As humans, we naturally believe that everything, no matter what, comes from some source. Something had to spark the big bang, although there's always the possibility it gave itself that "push"; it coulda been a simple chemical reaction, anything. Who knows for sure what all was contained in that itty-bitty speck of matter, but I digress. It just seems our minds are incapable of perceiving any sort of infinite existence, that it's impossible that any physical cluster of atoms coulda always been there or always will be there.

It's interesting to think about what might be outta our realm of understanding, and the thought of a feasibly endless chunk of "time" before the big bang may be one of those things that we can't quite grasp.

This post has been edited by SilverFork on 29th May 2005 03:34

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Words of Wisdom:

If something can go wrong, it will.

If anything simply cannot go wrong, it will anyway.

If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong. - Murphy’s Law

Boing! Zoom! - Mr. Saturn

The big bang theory really blows my mind sometimes. The first thing I think when I try to frame it in my mind, is that it implies that the universe will collapse on itself. The logic behind this is that the big bang must be a repeatable event. After all...how can time and the universe be infinite if one event was the beginning. So that's all well and good...so the Universe collapses into a single point and then violently expands over and over again....

BUT.

If the universe is infinite, how can it possibly collapse into a single point?

Well maybe all the matter is centralized...but that implies that at some point you could find an endless void....Which is extremely freaky.

My personal opinion on the size of the universe? (Which relates to the age of the universe) The void isn't endless...Somewhere extremely far out there are other universes with their only little big bangs. Ad Infinium...

After all, haven't we tended to notice with fractals and what not that patterns tend to repeat themselves over and over as you look closer? We can assume this same thing happens as you zoom out as well. Scary how insignifigant we are. And somehow comforting as well.



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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

First of all, big bang theory says exactly that: the universe isn't infinite and theoretically DOES have a center of mass. Also, the possibility of an eventual collapse is only possible if there is enough mass in the universe to force a contraction, which there probably isn't. As for the possibilites of other universes out there, that's a more difficult question. Big bang theory is not that all of the matter in the universe is travelling outward through an infinite space, but rather that all of time and space is expanding outward. Space doesn't exist beyond the "edge of the universe," based on the same principle of big bang theory that time and space didn't exist before the big bang. I hate to rain on your contemplative parade, but big bang theory doesn't like a lot of your speculation.

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Quote (laszlow @ 31st May 2005 10:56)

First of all, big bang theory says exactly that: the universe isn't infinite and theoretically DOES have a center of mass. Also, the possibility of an eventual collapse is only possible if there is enough mass in the universe to force a contraction, which there probably isn't. As for the possibilites of other universes out there, that's a more difficult question. Big bang theory is not that all of the matter in the universe is travelling outward through an infinite space, but rather that all of time and space is expanding outward. Space doesn't exist beyond the "edge of the universe," based on the same principle of big bang theory that time and space didn't exist before the big bang. I hate to rain on your contemplative parade, but big bang theory doesn't like a lot of your speculation.

lol. That's fine. Big Bang and I have been on bad terms for awhile now. He got real drunk at a party a few months ago and threw up all over my carpet and broke my TV and he refuses to pay for it.

The theory I was talking about was Big Boom, and it's completely valid until someone proves me wrong.

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

Frankly I don't think anyone here has smoked enough ganja to know the answer to the question. Proportionally speaking, the amount of weed needed to reach the high neccessary to acertain that answer will kill all but the most disiplined hash master.

I think he lives in San Diego, but I'm not sure and besides he can't afford that much puff on his salary.

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Arts

Farts

Twarts

I'm not a pot head, nor am I going to give an endorsement for "wacky tobaccy" here today, but your use of both the terms "ganja" and "hash master" in one post have earned you a special place in my heart.

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

I've never met a pothead that could make thoughts nearly as coherently as yourself.

Anyway, as much as I'd love to wrap my brain around it, I simply think that we cannot fathom the beginning nor the end in any way that would allow us to continue being sane. I could drive myself mad trying to figure out the big bang (if it coused itself, then why didn't it happen billions of years sooner or later?), or even worse: gain enough perspective on the Big Picture ™ that human existance seems trivial and start a killing spree.

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M777: lightweight 155mm howitzer
3/11 rules over all artillery!