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Quote (KefkaLives @ 9th May 2005 21:28)

Quote (Master ZED @ 9th May 2005 17:55)

In the WOR, they're Leo and the Thamasa Kefka.

Out of curiousity, why only in the WoR? Both of those characters appear in the WoB. It seems that if those extra slots were to be used for them it would be within the world that they appear.

Where did I say the word "only?"

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

Quote (Master ZED @ 10th May 2005 12:28)

Where did I say the word "only?"

It was implied by saying "In the WOR". If they were the same in both the WoB and the WoR, then there wouldn't have been a need to explain further by adding on that clause, I don't think.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

The game attributes stats, a sprite, and a palette to one of 16 slots through scripted events. These slots are set to Leo and co through events around Thamasa, at which point the game no longer has any use for them because the storyline somewhat loosens up after the floating continent and no NPC does anything funky with the party.

For reference's sake, the game doesn't know what a "character" is. It merely has a series of stats, a sprite ID, and a palette ID, and bundles them up in a slot. You could have a pink-and-purple Terra with Locke's stats, really, and it would make no difference. What's in those slots is just what the game needs. They're like canvases PCs and NPCs can be constructed on by events. It just so happens the game makes sure the first 14 slots never get different data since they're reserved for permanent characters, and the remaining two can be used to build temporary characters, such as Leo or Maduin during Terra's flashback.

(IIRC. One of the ROM hackers still in business may be able to correct me if my brain slipped up somewhere. )

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Why would the game hold a spot for an npc charecter? there are plenty of charecters in the game to fill that (at least in the WOB) such as the moogles,the ghost you get on the phantom train, general leo. All those guys would more than fill the slot haveing an npc charecter seems dumb despiste the fact you cant get them in the game and that they are just place fillers.

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Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

I'm not quite sure I got that (no offense ^^; ) but I'm mainly talking about the actual guts and bones behind the game. By NPC I meant temporary PC (my bad; that's a little bug in my vocabulary I never quite worked out). Essentially the game just uses the spare slots to have an available character in memory it can use without overwriting other character slots. These characters are overwritten by other characters once they're out of play (why drag around the data for Vicks and Wedge past the opening scenes?)

Instead of having actual complete packages, FF assembles the character data from multiple sources so it can do stuff like change a sprite (Locke stealing merchant/soldier uniforms) or give you control of a temporary character that vanishes after a while (Maduin during the flashback, for instance.)

Another example is the scene where the moogles from the Narshe cave help out. Kupek takes Cyan's slot, for instance.

CCA94B 7F Change 02_CYAN's Name To 12_KUPEK
CCA94E 40 Set StatSet 12_KUPEK To 02_CYAN
CCA951 3D Make Sprite 0x02
CCA953 37 Set Graphic ID 0x0A To 02_CYAN
CCA956 43 Set Palette 0x05 To 02_CYAN

First it changes slot 0x02's name to the stored name in the stat data ID 0x12. Then it gives stat data ID 0x12 to slot 0x02 (which would be Cyan's). It creates the sprite, and gives it graphic 0x0A (Mog's; or the general moogle sprite, really.) Finally it sets palette 0x05, which is the white-pink-purple moogle palette.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Hey i was wondering...has anyone tried that Sir Richard and Tiamat thing that's listed in the Rumors section of CoN?? cuz i was really interested in that and i was trying to find richard like it said after i defeated 4 of the 8 dragons and i was wondering if it's even in the PSX version....just wondering

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A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.

Quote (Rangers51 @ 10th May 2005 14:14)

It was implied by saying "In the WOR". If they were the same in both the WoB and the WoR, then there wouldn't have been a need to explain further by adding on that clause, I don't think.

Yes, that's why I thought "only." Thank you for clarifying that, R51.

Anyway, I think I'm beginning to understand. Those two extra slots are used to store data for any NPC or temporary PC. So i.e., in the beginning of the game Vicks and Wedge are there, and then the data (stats, sprite ID, palette ID) gets dumped when they leave the party. So during Thamasa, it will load up the info for Leo and Kefka into those two slots. Then, in the WoR, Leo and Kefka's data remains in those two slots.

So why does the data for Leo and Kefka remain in those slots in the WoR? At first I thought it was because they are the last two TPCs/NPCs of the WoB, and therefore the last in the game as there are no TPCs/NPCs in the WoR (that I can remember, anyway). But then I remembered Gestahl on the floating continent. I assume he has NPC data that loads into one of those slots. So why wouldn't it be Kefka and Gestahl's data instead? And why keep the data there at all? Why not just dump their data (assuming the data is ever actually 'dumped')?

Edit

I reread Silverlance's post and realized the data is never "dumped," just overwritten when a new TPC/NPC is loaded into one of those two slots. Elaborated a bit on the Gestahl point with this in mind.

Also, where exactly are these two slots? I know ZED said they don't appear in shops, and GMH said they don't appear when you make three parties, so are they only in the game data and not visible in the regular game?

I apologize if this is taking things too off topic, or if anyone finds this stupid. Again, I have no hacking or programming experience, so these questions are coming from a complete novice with only a passing curiosity. I appreciate any info.

This post has been edited by KefkaLives on 11th May 2005 02:22

I haven't worked with characters enough to give an actual answer, and perhaps one of the other ROM hackers here will be able to confirm this, but I believe the game simply displays the first 14 slots in, for instance, shops (for you programmer types, think a "for" loop from 0 to 13.)

Eh, what the heck, I'm curious now. Dump-diving time.

Code

; This looks suspiciously like the X and Y position of sprites in the submenu.
; Row 1: X position. Row 2: Y position.
; Notice how there are 14 entries. Hmm...!
0xC0ED 18 38 58 78 98 B8 D8 18 38 58 78 98 B8 D8
0xC0FB 9C 9C 9C 9C 9C 9C 9C B8 B8 B8 B8 B8 B8 B8

; And now, the code that does this thingie.
0xC109 LDX 0x9E09 X = 0x9E09; A pointer, maybe?
0xC10C STX $2181 $2181 = X;
0xC10F LDX $00  X = 0x00; Looks like the start of a FOR loop.
0xC111 PHX  Push X  ; Saving the loop counter...
0xC112 REP 0x20 16bit Mode;
0xC114 TXA  A = X  ;
0xC115 ASL A  A = A << 1;
0xC116 TAX  X = A  ; X = X * 2, basically.
0xC117 LDA $1EDC A = $1EDC;
0xC11A AND $C39C67,X A = A & $C39C67[X]; Check if the current character is in the active party.
0xC11E BEQ $C132 Equal Zero, Goto 0xC132; If not, go to the next character.
0xC120 LDA $C36969,X A = $C36969[X]; Get the current character's working RAM address.
0xC124 TAY  Y = A  ;
0xC125 TDC  A = 0x00; (Basically...)
0xC126 SEP 0x20 8bit Mode;
0xC128 LDA $0000,Y A = $0000[Y]; Set A to point to the character's working RAM.
0xC12B CMP 0x0E Compare A, 0x0E;
0xC12D BCS $C132 Less, Goto 0xC132; If the ID is less than 0x0E (14), skip the next step.
0xC12F STA $2180 $2180 = A;
0xC132 SEP 0x20 8bit Mode;
0xC134 PLX  Pull X  ; Retreive the loop counter.
0xC135 INX  X = X + 1; Increment it.
0xC136 CPX #$0010 Compare X, 0x0010;
0xC139 BNE $C111 Not Equal, Goto 0xC111; Loop until X == 16.
0xC13B LDA 0xFF A = 0xFF;
0xC13D STA $2180 $2180 = A; $2180 = 0xFF.
0xC140 RTS  Return

; Some additional stuff loaded by the code.
0x9C67 0100 0200 0400 0800 1000 2000 4000 8000
0x9C77 0001 0002 0004 0008 0010 0020 0040 0080

0x6969 0016 2516 4A16 6F16 9416 B916 DE16 0317
0x6979 2817 4D17 7217 9717 BC17 E117 0618 2B18

There we go. So! What's it do? Well, in a nutshell, it loops through all 16 character slots. For every slot, it checks if the current slot contains a character in the party roster (ie, if that slot is "taken" by someone.) If it does, it checks that the character's stats/commands/etc set ID is less than 14 (0-13 are the "normal" characters) and if it is, draws the characters. Then it moves on to the next one.

In short, this means that for every slot in the party roster, if it isn't occupied OR if the "character" ID is 14 or higher (13 or under are the permanent characters), the game simply skips over them. So you could have 16 Terras and they'd all be drawn, or an assortment of Leos, Kefkas, Vicks, Wedges, and so forth, and none of them would be drawn.

Whew, that was fun. Haven't done this stuff since last winter. ^-^

Edit: Ah, didn't answer the question despite all the flashy assembly reverse engineering... ^^; I would assume something similare occures when you select your party members and it builds the selection screen. Anyhow. Basically, there's absolutely NOTHING special about these two slots (from what I've seen to date.) In fact, you can move a character in the party roster to these slots and nothing special happens. It just so happens two slots (any of them; move characters around and they'll follow suite too!) contain non-permanent characters, and the game is set to ignore characters whom aren't permanent.

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 11th May 2005 02:42

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

I just thought of this: Maybe there're 16 slots for some binary-number reason? Do any of the programmers/rom hackers here think this might be the case, and from what reasoning?

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 11th May 2005 03:24

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

There are 16 slots for two reasons.

1- The game doesn't need more than 16 slots. It could make do with 15, even, if it bummed off of Umaro's slot for the Thamasa Kefka (he can't join in the WoB.) Even the moogles of Narshe event only has 13 slots: the 10 moogles, Mog, Locke, and Terra. And these borrow the other characters' slots.

2- A byte is 8 bits. Two bytes is 16 bits. The SNES accumulator can be set to work in 8 bit mode or 16 bit mode. As can be seen in the dump I provided, the game uses two bytes (called a 'word' on most platforms) to hold the characters in $1EDC (notice how it sets 16bit mode first) and each bit in the word indicates wether a character is present or not.

Reason 2 is the real one. Using a single byte would be WAY too limiting, and since the game doesn't need more than 16 slots, using 3 or more would be a waste. And using 1 byte per character would be a HUGE waste when you only have two possible values: there and not there. That's what bits are for.

Why not just use 15 bits then? Because it's either 8 or 16 bits. Nothing inbetween. That extra bit COULD be used for something else, but you generally try to save on bytes when writing tight code for a platform like the SNES, not bits. That just becomes outrageously difficult to keep track of ("Yeah, so $1F10 keeps track of how much health you have over 4 bits, your current weapon over 2 more bits, a bit that tells wether the sky is dark or illuminated, and the last bit is used to indicate wether the game is paused or not.") and frankly, unecessary.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Could the game have functioned with out these empty slots? Like for example if they were thinking of adding two extra charecters but scrapped them during the course of production? So i dont know much about codeing but besides it being 16 needed for it it might also explan why they are there in the first place.

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Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

The game "needs" these slots for 2 reasons.

1- The programming aspect. As mentionned before, 2 bytes = 16 bits/slots. The two extra slots would simply be wasted if they weren't used, wether the game needs them or not. It's like having a suitcase with sixteen compartments: who cares if you don't need them, they're already there so... Basically, from a programming point of view, it HAS to be 16. The slots are there. So why not use them?

2- There are 14 permanent characters, and at most 2 non-permanent characters in your party at one time. While the game COULD have used Umaro and Gogo's slots in the WoB (the WoR doesn't have non-permanent characters) the extra slots are already there. Why risk forgetting stray data in slots that will later serve an important use when you have temporary slots to fill up?

The only reason there are 16 slots is because of the processor's 16 bit architecture. Programmers use what they're given, and it just so happens they have access to 16 bits of "is there a character here?" Were there any extra permanent characters, more slots would've been needed and that would've been a hassle to handle. They COULD've fitted an extra character or two if they were only to exist in the WoR. This would also mean extra sprite data (which isn't in the game,) extra dialogue (also missing,) extra stat sets (actually present! ...but not in a very logical order and pretty obviously just test data,) and battle commands (there IS summon, but it is broken and was rumored to be used for something else. Memory's fuzzy.) It's unlikely there was a hidden character planned and removed from the game.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

(sorry i have gotten so off of topic with this) so they would of needed to create new slots anyways even if they had more than 14 charecters? Intresting.

I guess to stay on topic i need to do one i have found i dont know how huge of a seceret this is but inside of kefka's tower in one of the rooms that looks like its from the magi tek research facility you can find a hidden path. It goes towards the screen and you cant really see much of anything but blackness till you come to the room with the item. You get like a megaelixer(dont quote me on that one its been a while) and an agis shield(sp?) i discovered it on accident. What room its in however i dont spacifically know.

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Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

Quote (Lockes AlterEgo @ 11th May 2005 13:52)

I guess to stay on topic i need to do one i have found i dont know how huge of a seceret this is but inside of kefka's tower in one of the rooms that looks like its from the magi tek research facility you can find a hidden path. It goes towards the screen and you cant really see much of anything but blackness till you come to the room with the item. You get like a megaelixer(dont quote me on that one its been a while) and an agis shield(sp?) i discovered it on accident. What room its in however i dont spacifically know.

I think there is also a path in the magitek research facility like that. I believe you ride a conveyer belt either up or down to get there. Might be the same room.

Silverlance -- thank you for your explanations. I can't say I completely understand, but hey, it's a start.

This post has been edited by KefkaLives on 11th May 2005 22:29

Quote (yazoo_my_bishi @ 10th May 2005 18:43)

Hey i was wondering...has anyone tried that Sir Richard and Tiamat thing that's listed in the Rumors section of CoN?? cuz i was really interested in that and i was trying to find richard like it said after i defeated 4 of the 8 dragons and i was wondering if it's even in the PSX version....just wondering

It is a false secret. I think it is listed that all the rumors on that page have come up false.

Really hmmm i dont think i have ever found that then. Anyways i dont know if that was a well known one but i know getting the second megaelixer helped tremdously for me cause

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

kefka did fall 1 at least twice

So it was useful.

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Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

The moogles from cave that were mentioned above, reminded of a kind of small secret, everyone probably knows it but... you can steal Mog's Mythril Spear and Shield from him when your in control of him.

Also that "Tiamet" picture is actually a dragon from a game called Bahamut Lagoon that wasn't released in America. I got it translated for Znes, its name is like Twinhead or something.

This post has been edited by Loose_Hair on 12th May 2005 20:30

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Life is not a practice, always play to win.
I buried Ponce.

Quote (Schism @ 1st May 2005 21:31)

Anyone else find this?

Terra as an Esper... Sorta looks like a menu pic. However im not exactly sure that it was orginally used for a menu pic because it has too high of a resolution

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Its not denial. I'm just very selective about the reality i accept. ~Calvin and Hobbes

Yah, i dont post much if you havent noticed. I'm not used to large fourms so i usally lurk and post every now and then..

Quote (Retribution @ 27th May 2005 19:12)

Terra as an Esper... Sorta looks like a menu pic. However im not exactly sure that it was orginally used for a menu pic because it has too high of a resolution

It wasn't. A quick dump of the menu portraits from the ROM reveals there's no such portrait. It IS interesting to note that it has been drawn with a 16 color palette.

Chances are it's bonus material on the PSX remake's CD.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Silverlance @ 27th May 2005 19:29)

Chances are it's bonus material on the PSX remake's CD.

It's in with all of the other menu pics on the game disc, and they're all at that resolution (including the two seperate portraits for Biggs and Wedge). You cannot access it through the game... what I want to know is where the Cid portrait came from (the one here at the boards).

This post has been edited by Ross, Alexander. on 28th May 2005 02:21

Quote (Ross Alexander. @ 27th May 2005 20:19)

what I want to know is where the Cid portrait came from (the one here at the boards).

WebGraphics drew that I believe, and the admins loved it enough to put the picture up as an avatar.

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

The most elusive secret that I know is the method of killing an Intangir without using 'Doom' and receiving a devasting counterattack (and wasting MP). All you have to do is use Gau's 'Rhodox' rage since he will only do one of two attacks: a normal attack which does nothing and doesn't prompt a counterattack, or Snare, which works like X-Zone, and kills him without prompting a counterattack.

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Don't worry, I'm not going to garrote you.