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Well, Weigraf joined with Lucavi Velius willingly, so that, alone, makes him evil. He didn't have to, but he chose to. Malak and Rafa didn't become Lucavi demons with Ramza's stones, so Weigraf is evil (yet a great character) in my opinion.

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"Thought I was dead, eh? Not until I fulfill my dream!"
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Yes, that's an interersting take on it. I never thought of it that way.
If Wiegraf was changed by the power of a Zodiac Stone, then he had that lust for power. He had a tainted heart. I believe, though, that his heart was tainted by war and betrayal, not some dormant evil inside him. He is evil NOW, but wasn't before.

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"Dance, water, dance!"
-Demyx, Kingdom Hearts II

"I met my love before I was born..."
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Currently Playing: Guitar Hero, Shadow of the Colossus

just like the old saying power corrupts...
Wiegrif was never really a "good" guy i think thats impled in the name DEATH corps selling off your soul to gain power isnt exatcly heroic or honorable but im sure he had his reasons for not ransoming elmdor.

I didnt mind that area of the game expect for the roof top, 100% chance of death on the rafa T.T low point for me


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procastinate now, dont put it off

Quote (Blythe @ 27th May 2005 09:02)

Wiegrif was never really a "good" guy i think thats impled in the name DEATH corps selling off your soul to gain power isnt exatcly heroic or honorable but im sure he had his reasons for not ransoming elmdor. 

I didnt mind that area of the game expect for the roof top, 100% chance of death on the rafa T.T low point for me

The game's never explicit, though, in whether they call themselves the "Death Corps" or if it's propaganda by the nobles. I'm inclined to believe the latter, and to believe that he doesn't ransom Elmdor because at that point he really is honorable -- heck, he goes to release him of his own volition. If we saw the story from a different viewpoint, I'm sure the nobles had some not-so-nice names for Ramza's party as well by the end of the game. Remember, at the point in the game where they're talking about the "Death Corps," Ramza's working for the bad guys...

As for Riovanes roof...my strategy (and I'm sure others do this too):

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Just make sure you've got characters with 9+ speed and good movement -- Mustadio and ninjas are ideal -- and it's pretty simple to take out the nearest assassin before things get too hairy, ending the battle.

This post has been edited by red_beard_neo on 27th May 2005 14:27

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Quote (DivineKnight @ 8th April 2005 10:07)

Wiegraf is quite simply a victim of reality. He tries to fight for fair treatment and food because he and his troops are all starving to death while the nobles have feasts and warm beds to sleep in. Then Ramza kills his sister so he lusts for revenge. When he is on the verge of death and the stones speaks to him... come on guys, if anyone was offering you a chance to SURIVIVE would you take it? I think it would be pretty painful being busted up by a sword

Have any of you ever dreamt of being a Hero. Was he the rich guy who had all the power he needed already .. no he wasnt. He was a person who had been hurt and destroyed, He trusted Ramza's family and they screwed him in the end of the war, They asked for this fight. Imagine fighting to defend a country , losing your parents and friends to the war, its almost over and you see the light. The end to your weariness. Then your allies maybe even your closest friend backstabs you, So you fight back for your people, A hero if theyre ever was one, Then those same people kill your sister. I donno about you but if someone killed ma sister id be evil too. id be really mad that all that i have loved is gone, Without love u cant be happy. he wasnt a crep he killed his own guy for kidnaping elmdoor. And yah if i was slashed with swords and spells id take a stone just to feel better

Weigraf didn't get a fair shake after the war, but instead of getting back on his feet in a civil manner, he and his crew chose to plunder the countryside and kill innocents. As far as I see it, doing that will not only get frowning looks from everyone else in Gallione, but it's a poor way to bring about change that would benefit him.

There was a notable change in Wiegraf after he turned into Velius, so I discount any evildoing he did after then. All of his other actions were premeditated, so I find it hard to accept that he just "up and did things that weren't of his own accord".

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

well in the beggining yeah but at the third chapter i think when you go to fight zalbag he should be a Guest

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Quote (Shotgunnova @ 7th April 2005 01:19)

Wiegraf is a villain through and through.

I disagree. I think one of the strengths of the game was that things never really appeared totally black and white. Not even for Ramza the hero who was referred to throughout the game as niave. At the beginning of the game Wiefgraf had the same naive idealism throughout. His difference was that he didn't value life nearly as much. I'd call him a bad person, but he wasn't an absolute villain like some characters in the game, The Grand Duke Barinten as one example.

When his spirit merged with the Zodaic Stone, Velius's evil combined with Wiegraf's dispair created a completely evil being.

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

You're right about the black and white part--no one is ever really clear-cut. Regardless, downgrading his villain status because of a few second thoughts now and then. The clincher for me is that he's bringing about change for all the wrong reasons, and he's completely aware of it.

As you said, he was a bit naive (though less than Ramza), but that's understandable considering he was (a) a societal outcast (b) on the run from the law and © didn't know the entire picture.

Quote

The Grand Duke Barinten, for an example.

Yeah, he's not a friendly guy. A lot of people would misunderstand the scene on the Riovanes roof where he talks to Rafa, but once you know, it skyrockets him into contention for Ivalice's Evilest Man.

This post has been edited by Shotgunnova on 17th June 2005 20:42

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

Wiegrif was cool. Enemy or not he was cool. For crying out loud he

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

He' turns into a goat
and he

is one of the only death corps that wasn't a complete jerk

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- The problem isn't relgion, the problem is religious tolerance -

Well,I agree with everyone about this and their opinions.And like some said,He is more of a bully,but that doesn't make him an evil guy.He was fighting for a justified purpose back in chapter one.He was just doing it the wrong way.

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Quote (Shotgunnova @ 28th May 2005 19:36)

Weigraf didn't get a fair shake after the war, but instead of getting back on his feet in a civil manner, he and his crew chose to plunder the countryside and kill innocents. As far as I see it, doing that will not only get frowning looks from everyone else in Gallione, but it's a poor way to bring about change that would benefit him.

There was a notable change in Wiegraf after he turned into Velius, so I discount any evildoing he did after then. All of his other actions were premeditated, so I find it hard to accept that he just "up and did things that weren't of his own accord".

i don't think he killed innocents did he? (I'm actually not sure) I'm pretty sure the Death Corps, at least when they were acting on orders from Wiegraf, never did anything like that- they only robbed and hurt nobility, who were all guilty by association on that one.

but like everyone else has said - after ch. 3 he was evil, totally.

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Quote (KingDelita @ 30th June 2005 22:13)

i don't think he killed innocents did he? (I'm actually not sure) I'm pretty sure the Death Corps, at least when they were acting on orders from Wiegraf, never did anything like that- they only robbed and hurt nobility, who were all guilty by association on that one.

Holy crap, they were like Robin Hood and his merry men!

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"Dance, water, dance!"
-Demyx, Kingdom Hearts II

"I met my love before I was born..."
-AFI, 'Love Like Winter' from 'Decemberunderground'

Currently Playing: Guitar Hero, Shadow of the Colossus

Quote (KingDelita @ 30th June 2005 20:13)

Quote (Shotgunnova @ 28th May 2005 19:36)

Weigraf didn't get a fair shake after the war, but instead of getting back on his feet in a civil manner, he and his crew chose to plunder the countryside and kill innocents. As far as I see it, doing that will not only get frowning looks from everyone else in Gallione, but it's a poor way to bring about change that would benefit him.

There was a notable change in Wiegraf after he turned into Velius, so I discount any evildoing he did after then. All of his other actions were premeditated, so I find it hard to accept that he just "up and did things that weren't of his own accord".

i don't think he killed innocents did he? (I'm actually not sure) I'm pretty sure the Death Corps, at least when they were acting on orders from Wiegraf, never did anything like that- they only robbed and hurt nobility, who were all guilty by association on that one.

but like everyone else has said - after ch. 3 he was evil, totally.

I don't think it's presumptuous to say that the Death Corps killed innocents.

Quote ("The Death Corps" rumor)

Robberies are on the rise in various areas and Gallione is no exception. Wagon hijackings and abductions are rampant. Now a group of former criminals and mercenaries, called the Death Corps, have been making the most trouble for the Hokuten

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Wiegraf Folles (Age: 32)

Leader of the anti-Aristocrat "Death Corps". He was also the leader of the Knights of Death, which were made up of volunteers during the Fifty Year War. To relieve the stronghold of the Aristocrats, they performed terrorist acts, such as assassinations and kidnappings of leading figures, but were eliminated by retalition by the officials. Last seen at the battle at Fort Zeakden.

Gustav himself had raped people, Death Corps knights attacked and killed the guards of Elmdor, Golagros abducted Teta and used her as a shield when he thought his getaway was in danger. Nowhere does it implicitly say "The Death Corps killed innocents", but they were holding ever noble and leader accountable for the actions of the few, so I have no problem saying that they killed innocents.

Surely, if an abduction failed to get a ransom (or pay-off), they wouldn't just let the person go? Wiegraf had a few scruples, but his burning desire to do away with the aristocracy would probably get the better of him (and his men) on this one.

This post has been edited by Shotgunnova on 1st July 2005 12:40

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

but i assumed that the wagons etc that were attacked were the wagons of nobles' - who in the eyes of the death corps were all guilty by association. and do you remember what wiegraf gave gustav for his actions in the death corps? he gave him a sword through his stomach. and he was angry with golagros for kidnapping teta as well.

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