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The Washington state legislature announced on 1 March that they will seek a bill this term to hold video game companies responsible for any violent acts perpetrated "in any part due to playing video games," according to Seattle's KOMO (with secondary reporting by Games Are Fun). We've seen similar rumblings before over the years, of course, so this is merely presumptive at this point. However, the bill is currently in committee in the Washington State House of Representatives; upon approval - which is not at all unlikely - from its committee, it will be brought to the floor of the full House for a vote. (For more, locate a torrent of that one episode of "Conjunction Junction" that everyone's heard of.)

The implications of this Washington bill are potentially far-reaching. After all, two of the big three console manufacturers/first-party developers, Microsoft and Nintendo, find their American headquarters in Redmond. Whether the presence of these juggernauts is a contributing factor to the emergence of the bill is currently and will likely be forever unknown - however, if the developers can be held responsible for the actions of the gamers who play their games, it stands to reason that those who sell the platforms on which the games are played could be next.

Video game censorship and regulation has been an issue ever since games truly broke into the forefront of the American culture, over twenty years ago. So while it's easy to say that this bill is an offshoot of the swing toward conservatism in the last election, it's hard to make that case when the bill arose in the perennially blue state of Washington. Without a easy target for the issue, then, what potential reasons are there to introduce this legislation?

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 8th March 2005 13:06

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Knee jerk reactionary moves to blame something other than the actual cause... again. Except this ones a little odd. Some slow reflexes.I'm assuming it's a backbencher putting forth a motion to make him/herself look good and get his/her name in the papers, noticed by the federal league, whatever.

The real causes are numerous: the parents who do not raise their children right, and the irresponsible parents allowing the weapons to be available easily, or the fact the person may be trying to find some excuse for thier actions, for example. It's all part of the 'lets blame the easy target!' culture that has pervaded America, and the western world, since the end of WW2. Communists, rock music, comic books, punk music,television, videogames... if you don't like it or understand it, sue it or ban it!

Nice to see nothing changes.

My main question is: why JUST videogames?

What about Hollywood, showing REAL people acting like they are horribly maimed, what about Television? Hey, what about those Cartoons? You know, the ones they made in the 50s, 60s, 70s...Why the heck has no child blew up the car trying to get it to transform into a robot?

Actually, what about the NEWS with all those reports about events really happening?

Lets hold CNN, FOX, Paramount, MGM, ABC, HBO, etc.. lets sue them!
Oh no, wait, they have an awful lot of money don't they? My mistake...

Illogical politics at its best.

This post has been edited by Del S on 8th March 2005 18:05

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

Let's go with- If your kid emulates Grand Theft Auto- Then he's probably a moron.

I can't think of possibly emulating anything a video game character has ever done. Personally I think it's downright retarded. Midwestern housewives need something to blame because their kids were raised by idiots though. Shoving a child in front of Jerry Falwell and Seasame Street until he's 18 and goes off to college is probably a good way to make a homocidal maniac. More so then allowing him to release in the form of torching a few cops in vice city, or fragging some people in UT.

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

To quote: "It's not that this game will turn you into a murderous predator. It's that YOU ALREADY ARE ONE."

Here's a nice exampe of a situation that would lead to such a discussion; I'm sure I've mentioned it at CoN a few times. Also, Tiddles? This is no proof that FF VIII is Satan's game, although I know you grab any excuse you can find

A Dutch guy is a big fan of FF VIII. Also, he's in a relationship with another guy who's also a big fan of the game. However, the father of this another guy is strongly opposed to the relationship. As a solution to this problem, the first guy dressus up like Squall, self-inflicts the famous scar on his own face with a shard of glass, and sets out to kill the father with a claw hammer. He fails. Then, it's in the newspapers, and he in trouble.

My point is, look at the example. The character Squall would have done none of these actions, so he wasn't personifying himself with the actual character (unless he thought he was, but Square did not *intend* to create this kind of character and cannot be held responsible in such a case). He just a random character he thought was kick-ass to steel himself for what he deemed necessary. FF VIII was not the trigger of the crime, it was a...mould in which it was poured in. It would have happened either way.

I think the law is unnecessary and lacking of any kind of historical knowledge. People have always been afraid of new stuff. They thought writing stuff down would be harmful to your memory. They thought reading drove you insane. They thought plays were harmful to your morale. Back when Goethe's 'Die Leider des jungen Werther' was released dozens of young males around Europe killed themselves Werther-style because they identified with his feelings.

It's in the people, man. Not in the media.

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

I guess parents don't realized what the ESRB rating on the bottom of every game nowadays means. The M on GTA for example. I hear my younger brother always talking to his friends about playing the game at school. My younger brother being 13. It doesn't take a genius to figure out a game called Grand Theft Auto is going to be unsuitable for elementary students. I put the blame on the parents who buy these games for their kids. Learn some restraint from buying the hottest new video game without first doing some research or at the very least watch your kid play the game.

Wow, my 10 year old kid just beat a hooker to death with a baseball bat. This is a great game for my kid. Seriously...

Some people are just messed up in the head in general. If someone can't separate fantasy from reality, then a video game is not the best thing to introduce to them.

But again, why just video games? Not like rap is the best place to find a solution. Think I'll kill someone and smoke some pot. Great rolemodels the youth of today have. You can't have a quiet walk around the town with someone driving by with their music blaring with their message echoing in these kids' brains. How about the schools? What are they doing to fight this issue?

Well Mr. and Mrs. Smith,Timmy drew several pictures of angels being slaughtered by men with pitchforks, he is showing a lot of promise.

Seriously, I don't understand why the rest of us should suffer because of someone else's mistake. I can tell you one thing, if I was denied video games and every other escape from my reality... I would probably go nuts. I need them to relieve myself from a hard day at school and dealing with all the morons that bug me as a cashier.

For one of my classes this year, I had to read an article called "Video Games for World Peace". I was provided a hard copy of the article in class so I don't have a link for it. It was in the globe and mail though if anyone is interesting in looking it up.

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This is my world: (Got my second chapter up, 3rd Chapter about 80% complete)
http://www3.sympatico.ca/daniel876/homepage.html

Del S said exatly what I think.

Such intelligent polititians we have in the US no?

They protest violent media but only certain types of violent media. 'Cause we all know that a video game with senseless violence is worse than a movie or book with senseless violence. I mean the sub-par graphics in GTA surely make it more realistic than a gorey movie.

No doubt they have the mental impression that video games are "a kid's toy". I wonder if they have even bothered to run any scientific tests to see if violent videogames actually affect children. And if they did I'd like to see them. Probably not because every video game test I've seen seems to indicate that games are good for you in one way or another. Even if they did effect children...THATS WHAT THE RATING SYSTEM IS FOR!!!...DUMBASS!!!

O well...I doubt very much they are actually doing this to try and protect america's youth. Even if they were. Kids don't need to be protected nearly as much as they need to be educated. If you be responsible with children and make sure they know the difference between fantasy and reality and make sure they take out their aggression in a healthy way you aren't going to have too many problems. But I guess its just too easy to stick them in front of the boob tube and let that raise them. I know I did more bonding with the TV than I ever will with my parents.

This post has been edited by Rujuken on 9th March 2005 01:25

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-- You're Gonna Carry That Weight --

It's a sad day indeed when people become too stupid to accept responsability.

Anyone remember the woman who sued McDonalds because she got scalded by their coffee? Her argument was that there was no indication that the coffee was hot and that she would suffer burns if it were spilled in her lap. Well, duh. Very bright, missy. Very bright. What's really say? She won her case.

5 seconds of poking around on the internet will yield tons of similare cases. Such as the guy who won 17M (or something to that end) because he didn't know putting his winnebago in cruise and heading in the back to have a coffee was going to cause him to crash. Or the girl who threw a sprite at her boyfriend's head, slipped in the resulting puddle 5 seconds later, broke her pelvis, and sued the store because of it.

Now people are blaming video games because, hey, the ESRB rating probably has no idea what it's talking about. They can buy GTA for their kids. They're mature enough to play it, even though they're only 12. Heck every other kid plays it! Obviously the rating is wrong- oh, but wait, now Junior just used daddy's handgun to shoot grandma and steal her money. ...The game is obviously to blame. Forget the rating, it's not like it had anything to do with all this; the game was too violent for Junior! The game is wrong! Forget about the rating, it's not like it was any important, huh?

I'm reminded of a recent South Park episode where they made fun of Paris Hilton. She opened up a store called "Stupid Spoiled Whore" which basically promoted, well, spoiled whorish attitudes. The message in the episode was basically that parents should be more attentive to their children's role models and activities and should know when to put their foot down; just because everyone else is doing it, it's not a reason to make your child into a stupid spoiled whore. Or to have him/her play games they shouldn't.

...Back in my days, Tetris was cool. :/

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Moderator Edit

This entire post was useless to me due to the intense swearing. Didn't we already tell you a couple months back not to do that? -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 9th March 2005 12:39

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Game - Location ---------- Score
FF -------- Got the Canoe --- B-
FFII ------ That Pond -------- C+
FFIII ----- ... ----------------- N/A
FFV ------ The N Zone ------- B+
FFVI ------ WOR ------------- A
FFVII ----- The Gold Saucer- A+
FFVIII ---- COMPLETED ----- D-
FFIX ------ COMPLETED ----- B+
FFT ------- COMPLETED ----- A

As much as I'd like to get up in arms about the legislation, it's not something I'm particularly concerned about. I think people as a whole are more sensible than the media makes them out to be and this legislation will get batted down with ease. When it passes, I'll start to pay it some mind.

R51- Are you refering to the Schoolhouse Rock's "I'm only a Bill"? Cause "Conjuction Junction" was a different sketch entirely.

To comment on the issue, I think what needs to happen is add some weight to the ESRB ratings by holding Vendors more responsible for selling Mature games to little kids. It's what we do with movies and I think it's perfectly valid. A little awareness by the general public is always a good thing.

This post has been edited by The Ancient on 10th March 2005 17:25

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

I could rant on this for a while, but I don't truly have a well-formed opinion on the issue yet, so I'll say the following:

Quote

It's a sad day indeed when people become too stupid to accept responsibility.

(spelling corrected)

Aye.

Although I will admit to imagining what it would be like to shinespark down a long hallway at my school, shortly after finishing Metroid Zero Mission...

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current games (2024-02-19):
Fairy Fencer F ADF
Pokémon Perfect Crystal

finished so far this year:
Gato Roboto
drowning, drowning
New Super Mario Bros.
TMNT 3: Radical Rescue

tabled: Lost Ruins

Quote (The Ancient @ 10th March 2005 12:19)

R51- Are you refering to the Schoolhouse Rock's "I'm only a Bill"? Cause "Conjuction Junction" was a different sketch entirely.

Bah, yes. My bad.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

So I guess this means potentially that I can go to Washington and kill my step-mom Manhunt style, I can blame it on Rockstar? Yay! Let me pack! /sarcasm.

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Elena Indurain

Currently Playing: Suikoden II

My attitude toward censorship is that they shouldn't have to.
I like seeing an effort to get under control (whether I agree with the method is neither here nor there).

To those who ask why they don't go after other forms of media, there are a few reasons.
Those other forms are passive forms of entertainment. The consumer is more involved with what happens on screen when playing a video game. When you see someone on TV get killed, it is like you are a witness. If your character kills someone on a video game, it is like you yourself are commiting the act. Because of this, it is assumed video game violence has a greater effect than movies and televsion.
Rujukin: There are a few studies on the effect of video game violence on kids (tons on the effect of TV violence, which can be easily relateable). I did a research paper for a COM class on it, and the studies I pulled from reported an increase in aggression and shorter tempers among the group of older-elementary kids that they had play more video games than the group of kids they cut off from them.
Also, those other forms are more controlled than video games. My 8 year old brother could go into any video game store and get himself a copy of GTA. He could not get into an R-rated movie unless I bought the ticket. Television stations arrange their schedules so that the worst stuff will play when the least amount of young kids are watching, and there is the V-chip and cable box parental blocks. Don't anyone even try to say books. Books are written to the language of those they are meant for. An overly violent book will not be written for a 3rd grade reading level.

Quote (Silverlance @ 8th March 2005 21:29)

Anyone remember the woman who sued McDonalds because she got scalded by their coffee? Her argument was that there was no indication that the coffee was hot and that she would suffer burns if it were spilled in her lap. Well, duh. Very bright, missy. Very bright. What's really say? She won her case.

The McDonalds she went to had over 400 complaints about the the coffee being too hot, it was over 300 degrees, and she needed three skin grafts. When she tried to go to them about it, they were very rude to her, so she sued. She won the dollar amont that McDonalds makes from selling coffee in a single day (25 or 75 mill, don't remember which). She went back to the negotiating table after the trial and took exactly what she needed to pay medical bills.
But little details like that are meaningless, right?

Quote (Silverlance @ 8th March 2005 21:29)

5 seconds of poking around on the internet will yield tons of similare cases.

Most of which are going to be false.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

Quote (Dark Paladin @ 15th March 2005 03:37)

Quote (Silverlance @ 8th March 2005 21:29)

Anyone remember the woman who sued McDonalds because she got scalded by their coffee? Her argument was that there was no indication that the coffee was hot and that she would suffer burns if it were spilled in her lap. Well, duh. Very bright, missy. Very bright. What's really say? She won her case.

The McDonalds she went to had over 400 complaints about the the coffee being too hot, it was over 300 degrees, and she needed three skin grafts. When she tried to go to them about it, they were very rude to her, so she sued. She won the dollar amont that McDonalds makes from selling coffee in a single day (25 or 75 mill, don't remember which). She went back to the negotiating table after the trial and took exactly what she needed to pay medical bills.
But little details like that are meaningless, right?

Three Hundred?! No matter what scale you use, thats physically impossible. Farenheit to celcius is around 150 degrees and Kelvin is a mere 25 degres celcius. That cannot be the actual figure.

Quote

Also, those other forms are more controlled than video games. My 8 year old brother could go into any video game store and get himself a copy of GTA. He could not get into an R-rated movie unless I bought the ticket. Television stations arrange their schedules so that the worst stuff will play when the least amount of young kids are watching, and there is the V-chip and cable box parental blocks. Don't anyone even try to say books. Books are written to the language of those they are meant for. An overly violent book will not be written for a 3rd grade reading level.

Then surely part of the solution is not to criminalise the videogames, but to control them in the ways all other forms of media are? All we need is UK law to enforce our ratings system, and the US Federal Law to introduce and control an official age rating system, with fines for any offenders parents. Parental consent would be required for any people under the age limits to own or play the games.

Of course, that might not work. It's too simple an idea for the complex legal systems of today.

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

Quote

It's a sad day indeed when people become too stupid to accept responsibility.

couldn't agree more.

Quote

Three Hundred?! No matter what scale you use, thats physically impossible. Farenheit to celcius is around 150 degrees and Kelvin is a mere 25 degres celcius. That cannot be the actual figure.

correct me if i'm wrong but i believe that water boils (at sea level) at 220 degrees F. I know for a fact that paper burns at 451 degrees F. So if they lit the coffee on fire...

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And when the band you're in starts playing different tunes,
i'll see you on the dark side of the moon.... - Pink Floyd

Eagle may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines

I have to agree that blaming video games for some idiot doing wrong is pretty stupid. Ever listen to eminem or 50cents? if anyone should be in trouble it should be those guys. The majority of they're music focuses on smoking weed or killing their girlfriends :s

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Peace sells... but Whos buyin? -Megadeth


You wont be saying that when you get a
lead pipe across the head -James (Darkness Illusions II)

Water boils at 100'C and 220'F. If her cup were at 300'F, it would be evaporating at a very rapid pace and, quite honestly, way too hot to pick up, carry to her lips, and drop in her lap from shock. The protective coating to prevent the cup from leaking would melt and the rest of the cup would deteriorate in superheated coffee, or the styrofoam would dissolve in hot coffee and be in a very sorry shape by the time it'd get back to her table.

Of course, if McDonalds really DID produce self-disposing coffee that evaporates itself and breaks down the cup on its own, it would be a very unwise marketting move as people tend to buy coffee in order to dispose of it themselves through oral means.

Back on topic, the reason games are so heavily targetted is because the average teenager plays them for a very extensive period of time, making them their main activity. Who's going to place the blame on playing basketball or going fishing? Yet both can be just as bad: basketball is an aggressive sport and fishing involves sinking a hook through the mouth of a fish to violently jerk it from its habitat. Why rappers haven't been targetted yet is probably either because the popularity of rap isn't as great as that of video games, or because none of the higher ups could stand to listen to it long enough to pass judgement.

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 12th April 2005 17:08

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Silverlance @ 12th April 2005 12:05)

Why rappers haven't been targetted yet is probably either because the popularity of rap isn't as great as that of video games, or because none of the higher ups could stand to listen to it long enough to pass judgement.

Where were you in the early 90's? That battle has already been fought.

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

Quote (The Ancient @ 12th April 2005 13:05)

Quote (Silverlance @ 12th April 2005 12:05)

Why rappers haven't been targetted yet is probably either because the popularity of rap isn't as great as that of video games, or because none of the higher ups could stand to listen to it long enough to pass judgement.

Where were you in the early 90's? That battle has already been fought.

Quite comfortable under my rock, thank you.

Although I seem to recall there being some pressure against music companies because of the lyrics their artists put out being too violent and influential... Just goes to show people will blame anything but their own parental skills.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Do you know what's going to be blamed next? Breathing. You're stealing oxygen from the government. Thereby developing kleptomania.

Quote

It's in the people, man. Not in the media.

The media plays a huge role in every person's life, it influences desicions that you need to make, so if it says that video-games are bad, a lot of adults who probably have never played them will agree. Like, if the media showed a famous person rejecting a video game, a lot of people will do it and hop on the bandwagon.

Quote

Also, those other forms are more controlled than video games. My 8 year old brother could go into any video game store and get himself a copy of GTA. He could not get into an R-rated movie unless I bought the ticket. Television stations arrange their schedules so that the worst stuff will play when the least amount of young kids are watching, and there is the V-chip and cable box parental blocks. Don't anyone even try to say books. Books are written to the language of those they are meant for. An overly violent book will not be written for a 3rd grade reading level.

Unless the book has to be non-fiction and they're doing the health unit. Like The Hot Zone. It described a very lethal disease, so it would be in health, correct?

I'm back.

This post has been edited by Green Magi on 2nd May 2005 21:03

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Could you repeat that?

A line from an Emineme song comes to mind "They say that music can alter moods and talk to you, but can it load gun for you and cock it too?" Same situation here. The game/movie/song ect. may have images of brutal crimes and violence and sex and all that junk but you are the one that made the choise to smoke some crack and drive down the wrong side of the freeway or beat some old dude up and steal his wallet or rob a liquer store and kill the clerk for a paltry 80 bucks. The problem here is that like everyone else said, "The parents arn't really being parents." They see the TV or computer or video game as a baby sitter and get outraged when violence or whatnot is being shown to there 6 year old because they didnt want to be bugged by their kid for half hour. now i know that when youre cleaning or something like that its hard to have a screaming brat gloming on to you but if you need time alone or to tidy up the house bring the little dudes to grandma or see if the RESPONSIBLE 14 year old next door needs a few extra dollars and have 'em go to the park or something. Yes, my mom when i was yonger let me play games and watch kung fu and shoot em up movies when she was busy around the house but if i threw the contorler or started fighting with my younger brother we got paddled and sent outside. Anyway Ive voiced my opinion.

This post has been edited by ramza_beoulve on 7th May 2005 05:12

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A hero is somone who steps up when everyone else backs down.

Your greatest adversary hides inside your mirror.

About violent movies and how they're non-interactive.
That's true, but don't forget, in many movies, the good guy, role-model character sets off with a gun to kill countless hordes of bad guys and so he can win the girl.
First: too much gore, Second: no plotline whatsoever and Third: Political correctness to boot, because the bad guys were racists/fasists/terrorists/whoever...And people actually let children watch such movies. Isn't that influential?

On the other hand, when I was little, I used to play Prince of Persia (lots of killing and some blood was there), Wolfenstein 3D and arcade games - mostly fighters, but some shooters too - with lots of violence.
Somehow, I never got the idea, that I might actually start doing stuff like the characters from the games...

My little cousin (Alexandra, 11 years old) when I last saw her, was glued to the computer, playing "Vice city". I disapprove and I told my aunt and uncle that. I don't know what measures they took. Then again, she probably got disinterested after another month of playing and switched to another part of "Harvest moon" or something (YES, she did play GTA:VC and HM in turns.)

Parents who put the blame on video games, or any form of media for that matter, for their children's misconducts, need to come back down to earth. Did they even say "Yes, but this is only a game and you shouldn't do it in real life"? Do they ever talk to their children except for giving them things?

About South Park: remember the episode when Stan's granddad wanted to die and Kyle's mom was trying to ban "Terrance & Phillip"? When stan only mentioned "T&P" while answering how did he come to helping his grandfather die everybody said it's because of the show. Nobody listened to the granddad or the children.

I wonder if all those people also blame the media for their children taking drugs? I imagine they would.

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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN