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Having said that, with all due respect, you d-d not write the script to Final Fantasy VII

And that is 'exactly' why I didn' pull others posts apart trying to disprove them. Cos in FFVII fith it's rushed rel!ase date, incomplete scripting, and poor translation there is no way of saying if I'm right or they are.
I just personally think1that the fact Hojo sent soldiers out to terminate both Zack and Cloud rather than capture them says 'they failed'. But I could be wrong of course. ^^

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The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel @ 22nd February 2005 22:57)

I did, but reading what others think doesn't mean I'll just 'change' what I think. Hojo sent out soldiers to kill both Zack and Cloud. He did that because they failed.

In Cloud's case, he wasn't a failure, however. The game could not be more clear on this without Hojo saying "You weren't a failure, Cloud":

(From the Escapee Reports in the back of the Shinra Mansion's library.)

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Escapee Report No. 2
Description of the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him.
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.

(Bolded for emphasis.)

Well, actually, Hojo does say that:

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Cloud
        "Hojo! Stop right there!!"

(Hojo does not turn to face them. He merely continues his work.)

Hojo
        "Oh... the failure."

Cloud
        "At least remember my name! It's Cloud!"

(Hojo stops working but still does not turn)

Hojo
        "Every time I see you, I..."
        "It pains me that I had so little scientific sense..."

(He resumes.)

Hojo
        "I evaluated you as a failed project."
        "But, you are the only one that succeeded as a Sephiroth-clone."
        "Heh, heh, heh......... I'm even beginning to hate myself."

As for why Hojo would have soldiers sent to kill them? Let's keep in mind that Shin-Ra was so intent on keeping what happened in Nibelheim a secret that they rebuilt the town and had it repopulated with their own workers, them being paid to pretend that the incident never took place:

(From the Periodic Report to Professor Hojo.)

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2 Confidentiality Report


A total of eight people have visited this town this quarter. Fortunately, none knew about the incident five years ago. Therefore, no one knows the town was restored exactly as it was five years ago. Our staff, disguised as townspeople have improved their acting skills, and we do not report any problems at this time.

If they would go to all that trouble and expense, I think the reason that Shin-Ra would try to kill them is fairly simple: They didn't want anyone to know the truth.

Quote (KefkaLives)

As another writer and, more importantly, as a person, I also think it is quite disrespectful to completely dismiss another person's post simply because you disagree with the content.

I agree with you completely. Fortunately, I didn't do that. The game disagreed with the content of his Post. Please go back and read my responses.

Quote (KefkaLives)

I won't go any further because I'm not a moderator at this forum. I don't believe you are either. As such, I don't think it's within our rights to tell people one way or the other what they should and should not be doing here.

Going back to what I was saying about finding it insulting for one's words to be ignored... I'll simply quote myself from there and bold certain parts for emphasis:

Quote (Squall of SeeD)

If I may ask, please do read all Posts in a Thread before posting in it, as it's quite disrespectful and insulting to others in the Thread to simply skim over or altogether ignore what has already been said, especially when it renders your own Post inaccurate before it's presented. As a writer, I find it to be among the greatest insults imaginable to ignore another's words.

I rather think I was making a request for courtesy from one human being to another.


Anyway, one more thing:

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

Cos in FFVII with it's rushed release date, incomplete scripting, and poor translation there is no way of saying if I'm right or they are.

The release date in Japan was delayed by a full month, more additions were added to the game for its North American Version's release, and after that, they still had more time to add stuff if they had so wished for the International Version, but, instead, they added a bonus disc with vehicle schematics and an Item catalogue. They had all the opportunity they needed to complete the game if they felt it was in need of being so reworked.

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 23rd February 2005 04:30

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

You said it yourself; "I evaluated you as a failed project."

See? There? 'Failed'? He evaluated him as failed. Cloud. The numberless failure.

Just cos he says it AFTER Cloud succeeds doesn't make him any less of a faildy failing failure with fail sprinkles at the start. Even though he reacted to the cells, dun mean it was a 'successful' reaction.

You're not changing my mind on this. ^^ Personally it bothers me not what you or others think. Can't you accept that maybe others think different?

While Cloud proved NOT to be a failure later, the facts (To 'me') still say that Hojo always considered him one. Even that whole speach by Hojo says so. The fact Hojo tried to have them both terminated says so in my eyes. It seems to me you draw all your proof from the side that says he was misplaced and not failed and choose to totally overlook the facts that point to him being one.

Second off, what does your last point have to do with anything? They didn't even fix the f'd up script even when adding in the weapons. 'This guy are sick!' It's the same with most games. It's easier and cheaper to just slap new things on than fix any mistakes made, and Square is the MASTER of not fixing mistakes on re-releases.

Last but not least I made it clear I read what others said, I just chose not to nit-pick what they thought because it's just a game and even if I don't agree didn't want to fued over it like you're trying to MAKE MEEE!
You hurt Mu man. You accused an innocent blue squirrel of things he never did gone did dune and do. I'm totally not using Hotspring on you in battle.

This post has been edited by Mu the Squirrel on 23rd February 2005 05:07

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The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

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I agree with you completely. Fortunately, I didn't do that. The game disagreed with the content of his Post. Please go back and read my responses.

The game does not say conclusively that all of the clones come from Nibelheim. I posted my conclusion on this in the Sephiroth thread. I understand that you feel differently. But it's important to make a distinction between what you present as fact actually being fact (i.e. there is a letter that says all the townspeople of Nibelheim were rounded up; there is a report to Hojo that lists Zack and Cloud as experiments and leaves an unfilled slot for a number beside each of their names), and what you present as fact actually being interpretation backed with evidence (i.e. this proves conclusively that all the clones in the game come from Nibelheim).

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Going back to what I was saying about finding it insulting for one's words to be ignored... I'll simply quote myself from there and bold certain parts for emphasis:


Quote (Squall of SeeD)
If I may ask, please do read all Posts in a Thread before posting in it, as it's quite disrespectful and insulting to others in the Thread to simply skim over or altogether ignore what has already been said, especially when it renders your own Post inaccurate before it's presented. As a writer, I find it to be among the greatest insults imaginable to ignore another's words.


I rather think I was making a request for courtesy from one human being to another.

The part you didn't put in bold accuses him of ignoring all the other posts, being inaccurate because his interpretations differ from your own, and committing one of the greatest insults. That isn't a polite request, it's a bit condescending. I don't want to go on about this because it's way off topic. All I'm saying is take a step back: you're emphasizing that your words be treated with respect, but are you extending that same courtesy to other people? A forum is a place for debate, sure, but debate does not mean you have to incessantly hammer home a point until everyone else conforms to it.

This post has been edited by KefkaLives on 23rd February 2005 14:12

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   You said it yourself; "I evaluated you as a failed project."

See? There? 'Failed'? He evaluated him as failed. Cloud. The numberless failure.

I think you missed the big, fat "BUT" right after that sentence:

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"I evaluated you as a failed project."
        "But, you are the only one that succeeded as a Sephiroth-clone."

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Just cos he says it AFTER Cloud succeeds doesn't make him any less of a faildy failing failure with fail sprinkles at the start. Even though he reacted to the cells, dun mean it was a 'successful' reaction.

He was the Clone to prove the JENOVA Reunion theory true. He was the "only one that succeeded as a Sephiroth-clone." By the way, that means he wasn't a failure.

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You're not changing my mind on this. ^^ Personally it bothers me not what you or others think. Can't you accept that maybe others think different?

Not when the game itself tells us something different. O.o If we're just going to ignore facts from the game, then I say my little Vincent x Sephy theory is true. >:\ They were lovers, they WERE!

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Second off, what does your last point have to do with anything? They didn't even fix the f'd up script even when adding in the weapons. 'This guy are sick!' It's the same with most games. It's easier and cheaper to just slap new things on than fix any mistakes made, and Square is the MASTER of not fixing mistakes on re-releases.

He's saying that the script was not incomplete, as you said it was. They had plenty of time to add to the script, had it been incomplete, but they didn't. Why? Because it was complete.

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Last but not least I made it clear I read what others said, I just chose not to nit-pick what they thought because it's just a game and even if I don't agree didn't want to fued over it like you're trying to MAKE MEEE!You hurt Mu man. You accused an innocent blue squirrel of things he never did gone did dune and do. I'm totally not using Hotspring on you in battle.

o.o;

*huggles teh little blue squirrel *

This post has been edited by Luthien Rogue on 23rd February 2005 05:32

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~I'll teach you all this, in eight easy steps, in the course of a lifetime you'll never forgot. I'll show you how to, in eight easy steps, I'll show you how leadership looks when taught by the best.~

You're missing the point. I'm not saying Cloud didn't end up succeeding as a clone, that's obvious, like, duh.

My point is he had no number because he was CONSIDERED A FAILURE until then. Hojo said so.

Last it was never complete. They just chose not to complete all the little subquests. There are ENDLESS items and such that point to quests they never made. The release date was pushed back a month and they were walking a thin wire, so they just tied up all those lil' loose ends. They didn't bother adding them later simply because it would be more work than they had to do.

This post has been edited by Mu the Squirrel on 23rd February 2005 05:46

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The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel @ 22nd February 2005 23:44)

You said it yourself; "I evaluated you as a failed project."

See? There? 'Failed'? He evaluated him as failed. Cloud. The numberless failure.

Yes. He called him a failure. Cloud sort of waltzed up to him and said "Hey, that guy... the failure? The SOLDIER? Yep, that's me." Hojo no doubt recalled that the fellow that had been a member of SOLDIER was a failure. At the Northern Crater, he had someone in a SOLDIER uniform telling him that he had been a failure. I think Hojo can be excused the mistake. As far as it goes, Hojo likely never learned that Cloud wasn't the SOLDIER that had been in Nibelheiim with Sephiroth.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

Just cos he says it AFTER Cloud succeeds doesn't make him any less of a faildy failing failure with fail sprinkles at the start. Even though he reacted to the cells, dun mean it was a 'successful' reaction.

Again, Hojo thought that Cloud was Zack.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

You're not changing my mind on this. ^^ Personally it bothers me not what you or others think. Can't you accept that maybe others think different?

Of course I can. Can't you take note that we're on a Forum, which is by definition a venue created for debate? As such, I'm going to debate based on what the game shows us. In the matter we're discussing, Hojo thought Cloud was Zack. Zack had been the SOLDIER. The SOLDIER had been the failure. Cloud was wearing the SOLDIER outfit and claiming to be a failure. Hojo assumed that Cloud knew what the hell he was talking about, a mistake on Hojo's part. He didn't evaluate Cloud as a failure. He evaluated Zack as a failure. Cloud shows us that he was a success.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

The fact Hojo tried to have them both terminated says so in my eyes.

Again, there's that whole "cover up what happened" thing.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

It seems to me you draw all your proof from the side that says he was misplaced and not failed and choose to totally overlook the facts that point to him being one.

...

There is no proof pointing to him being one. He told Hojo he was a failure. He was wearing the uniform of the fellow who actually was. Hojo put two and two together, but didn't realize he was working with the wrong formula (that being Cloud's muddled head).

There is only proof pointing to him not being a failure, this being that Cloud had a reaction to JENOVA's Cells, whereas Zack -- the fellow that Hojo mistook Cloud for -- had not, that Cloud proved the Reunion Theory, and that Cloud eventually emerged from all of the experimentation completely autonomous.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

Second off, what does your last point have to do with anything? They didn't even fix the f'd up script even when adding in the weapons. 'This guy are sick!' It's the same with most games.

Luthien already addressed this.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

Last but not least I made it clear I read what others said, I just chose not to nit-pick what they thought because it's just a game and even if I don't agree didn't want to fued over it like you're trying to MAKE MEEE!

What I'm trying to do is debate with you based on what we're shown by the source material. This is a Forum. Forums are created for debate. Your reaction of "It's not nice to disagree with me despite providing evidence against my claim while I present none in support of it" doesn't really go along with the concept of debate.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

You hurt Mu man. You accused an innocent blue squirrel of things he never did gone did dune and do. I'm totally not using Hotspring on you in battle.

...o.O

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 23rd February 2005 05:48

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

You give me a brain-ache. Can't we just agree to disagree? I say both Zack and Cloud were failures. Zack because he didn't react and Cloud because he because a jibbering wreck. The game in no WAY says 100% that Clod was a success in Hojo's eyes, and Hojo COULD have asked for Cloud to be returned alive, but didn't. Just chill man! Have a beer.

This post has been edited by Mu the Squirrel on 23rd February 2005 05:52

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The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

Why would Hojo want Cloud back when his mind had deteriorated into something devoid of usefulness? If Hojo wanted to find a specimen to waste Jenova cells and/or mako on, he could have, no doubt, had his pick of SOLDIER entrants that had a good chance of success. Also, Cloud would have no way of divulging what Hojo was doing in his lab, so the need to do away with him would have passed.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

You hurt Mu man. You accused an innocent blue squirrel of things he never did gone dune and do. I'm totally not using Hotspring on you during battle..

This post has been edited by Shotgunnova on 23rd February 2005 06:45

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

Quote (Mu the Squirrel @ 23rd February 2005 00:52)

You give me a brain-ache. Can't we just agree to disagree? I say both Zack and Cloud were failures.

Could you not say why? If you believe something, surely there's reasons for why you do. I'm interested in hearing them. So far, you've only brought up Hojo's instance of mistaking Cloud for Zack, which occurred after Cloud said he had been a failure anyway.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

Zack because he didn't react and Cloud because he because a jibbering wreck.

You're citing Zack's failure to have a reaction as your reasoning for him being a failure, whereas you said earlier about Cloud "Even though he reacted to the cells, dun mean it was a 'successful' reaction." That's something of a double-standard, wouldn't you say?

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

The game in no WAY says 100% that Clod was a success in Hojo's eyes, and Hojo COULD have asked for Cloud to be returned alive, but didn't.

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Hojo
        "...I'm not wild about the failure part, but the Jenova Reunion
Theory has now been proven."

Quote

Hojo
        "Every time I see you, I..."
        "It pains me that I had so little scientific sense..."

(He resumes.)

Hojo
        "I evaluated you as a failed project."
        "But, you are the only one that succeeded as a Sephiroth-clone."
        "Heh, heh, heh......... I'm even beginning to hate myself."

(Bolded for emphasis.)

That sounds like a pretty fair indication that he was thinking "I messed up. You are exactly what I was trying to make." Regardless of Hojo's view (which indicates that Cloud was a success, anyway), Cloud was one. He not only proved the Reunion Theory, but he survived everything and emerged from the experimentation that had been conducted on him as an autonomous being. Hojo had, indeed, produced another Person with the abilities of Sephiroth without them being a vegetable.

As far as your claim of Hojo having evaluted Cloud as a failure, when was this? Certainly not when the reports indicated him as having a reaction to JENOVA, unlike Zack. Once again, Hojo thought Cloud was Zack at the Northern Crater. Zack was evaluated as a failure, but not Cloud.

As far as Cloud being brought back alive goes, why bother? Hojo had several others who were in the same condition as Cloud. For that matter, why risk another escape on the return trip? Simply taking out the security risks and going on with the rest of the experiment would be far safer, and at the time, Hojo would have had no reason to believe Cloud would have had greater potential than any of the others.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 23rd February 2005 12:50

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

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Could you not say why?

$^%$^%$^%4!!!!11 >=o

That'll prolly get me a ban warning but it had to be said, that one phrase forces me to bang my head on the desk repeatadly until it draws blood.

I can see no reason to continue this, you're obviously too set in your ways to understand others may actually think differently to you.

This post has been edited by Mu the Squirrel on 23rd February 2005 06:54

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The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

Personally I agree with Squall of SeeD. I found alot of his points to be set on good grounds and backed up with lines from the game, that really do prove his point. Most convincing being the Letter from Zangan to Tifa, which not only describes the circumstances under which Cloud became an experiment, but why Tifa was not if all the other Citizens of Nibelheim were, which was really bugging the crap out of me.


Further more, the Hojo text from the end also proves that cloud was indeed a successful experiment, but Hojo simply was not omnipotent, and was mistaken in whom Cloud was. Which You can't fault him for as he was a sick bastard and preformed alot of rotten experiments in his time.


One question which still remains to me is the extent of testing that RedXIII was exposed to, and how he fit into the Jenova Project.

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

One would be led to believe that Red XIII had nothing to do with the Jenova Project. The closest he got to Jenova was probably being housed in the same room as her (if you can call it a her). Remember, Red XIII and Aeris were supposed to save their dying races--offspring would probably get the best of both worlds and Hojo would have a heyday poking and proding it for research purposes. Putting Jenova cells in either of them might have been ruination for his research on Aeris.

How Red XIII got captured in the first place would be an interesting subject. Even though he comes off learned and calm, I suppose he has a bit of naivety in him still, considering his longevity and age.

This post has been edited by Shotgunnova on 23rd February 2005 07:17

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

Quote (Squall of SeeD @ 22nd February 2005 22:39)

If I may ask, please do read all Posts in a Thread before posting in it, as it's quite disrespectful and insulting to others in the Thread to simply skim over or altogether ignore what has already been said, especially when it renders your own Post inaccurate before it's presented. As a writer, I find it to be among the greatest insults imaginable to ignore another's words.

Presentation counts for a lot. And while your point is valid, your presentation is horrid. Just because you've said something in a previous post doesn't make it holy writ, and even if someone has read every word doesn't mean that they should be taking notes and treading lightly around you and your opinions. While your attention to detail is lovely to have in this discussion, the accompanying attitude is unwelcome. You had a great string of posts until this part.

I'm sorry to take this thread off topic for a moment, but unless your goal is to make it so nobody wants to debate with you, then it's important for all the participants to know that your words here were something slightly less than necessary, and a bit pedantic where pedants are not needed per se.

I'm not going to side with anyone's opinions here, because I don't know FF7 all that well myself, and I'm not going to start caring deeply about it now. That's more Tiddles' job. I appreciate, though, that the debate remained more or less civil, and that Mu bowed out when he was afraid that he could no longer keep it civil. That's part of the maturity that I've come to expect from here instead of some other FF discussion forums that will go unnamed.

I think that about covers it. People can feel free to contact me in chat, AIM, MSN, or forum PM if they have further issues, but I think my point is pretty clear.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 23rd February 2005 12:49

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

My apologies to Mu and the rest of you in regard to that. I wasn't feeling well at the time of the statement for various reasons (I had spent the preceding two hours doing nothing but playing the Gold Saucer's 3-D Battler; that should give you some indication of the mood I needed to be in), and likely shouldn't have been here at the time.

Again, my apologies to everyone. It won't occur again.

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

cloud was a clone yes but hojo faild in killing cloud because the shinra troops thought he was dead on the mountain near midgar where they killed zack

Cloud got lost with the Mako and Jenova injection and exposure and took on Zack's identity until Tifa brought out Cloud's real identity in the Lifestream. A Sephiroth-clone with a soul that defies Jenova and Sephiroth.

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"Thought I was dead, eh? Not until I fulfill my dream!"
Seifer Almasy


"The most important part of the story is the ending."
Secret Window


"Peace is but a shadow of death."
Kuja

Sorry to bump up a slightly old topic, but I just found the link and wanted to pose some questions:

-Is it ever mentioned why Cloud failed to become a SOLDIER?
-Assuming for a moment that he did not mistake Cloud for Zack, why was he labelled a failure? Because he didn't show any of his strength unitl AFTER he escaped?
-How did Zack resist (or fail, depending on your view) the effects of Jenova/mako while Cloud and 12 others did respond to it (obviously at least one of them did, the man who said he used to be in SOLDIER then dresses in black as an effect of the Reunion)? Are all 12 tatooed individuals the survivors of Nibelheim, and are all of the survivors of Nibelheim the 12 tatooed men? Were all of them pressed into service as SOLDIERS?
-Did Sephiroth have a tatoo? All while you follow him around, people mention an man with a cape and a sword and a tatoo of the number one on him. Since the real Seph was at the Northern Crater, it must have been a Jenova clone, but was the clone itself tatooed with the 1 or was it just imitating Seph's 1 tat?
-Prior to the Nibelheim incident, there were SOLDIERS (as evidenced by Zack being one). Did they get injected to mako/Jenova before the Nibelheim incident? If so, then that means Zack was exposed twice, possibly why he didn't have any reactions--he'd already had them. And afterwords, there are SOLDIERS who were not survivors from Nibelheim. Were they exposed to mako, Jenova, or both? Why didn't they behave like the tatooed survivors if the indeed did recieve Jenova?
-Hojo's report mentions that Cloud was responding to the Jenova, but makes no mention to how he responded to the Mako. This, along with the fact that Tifa's eyes did not glow after being exposed to mako, is the strongest arguement that Jenova makes the eyes glow, not mako.

Whew!. That was a lot of thinking all in a few minutes!

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M777: lightweight 155mm howitzer
3/11 rules over all artillery!

Quote (Bahamut0013)

-Is it ever mentioned why Cloud failed to become a SOLDIER?

It seems to be indicated that he was too weak mentally:

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Cloud
        "You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
        "Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"
        "For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER."
        "It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion."
        "But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing."

Quote (Bahamut0013)

-Assuming for a moment that he did not mistake Cloud for Zack, why was he labelled a failure? Because he didn't show any of his strength unitl AFTER he escaped?

Cloud was the one to tell Hojo he was a failure. Assuming Hojo didn't mistake Cloud for the SOLDIER that had been a failure, he called him a failure because he had Cloud standing before him without a tattoo saying he had been a failure. Reason enough, I would say.

Quote (Bahamut0013)

-How did Zack resist (or fail, depending on your view) the effects of Jenova/mako while Cloud and 12 others did respond to it (obviously at least one of them did, the man who said he used to be in SOLDIER then dresses in black as an effect of the Reunion)? Are all 12 tatooed individuals the survivors of Nibelheim, and are all of the survivors of Nibelheim the 12 tatooed men? Were all of them pressed into service as SOLDIERS?

-Prior to the Nibelheim incident, there were SOLDIERS (as evidenced by Zack being one). Did they get injected to mako/Jenova before the Nibelheim incident? If so, then that means Zack was exposed twice, possibly why he didn't have any reactions--he'd already had them. And afterwords, there are SOLDIERS who were not survivors from Nibelheim. Were they exposed to mako, Jenova, or both? Why didn't they behave like the tatooed survivors if the indeed did recieve Jenova?

You may already know my view of this from other Posts:

One's sense of self-acceptance (or self-awareness if you choose to call it as such) seems to determine their mental fortitude. Folks like Zack and Lucrecia accepted theirself. Assuming that all members of SOLDIER would have a strong measure of self-acceptance like Zack (which seems safe to infer in my opinion; the obvious differences between Zack and Cloud were their opinions of themselves; Aerith noted these differences, as well, calling Zack a ladies' man and Cloud a mixed-up kid), this would also account for why the Junon Accessory Shop owner was not forced to go to the Reunion. [You didn't seem to notice, Bahamut0013, that he wasn't one of those black-cloaked folks from Nibelheim. They were the folks that survived Sephiroth's massacre there, and were then captured and experimented on by Hojo. He wasn't one of them. Refer to the Periodic Report to Professor Hojo on the desk in the upstairs of "Tifa's house" in the present day Nibelheim and Zangan's letter to Tifa that is within "her" piano there. I'll post them at the end of this article.*] The extent of his reaction to JENOVA's Reunion call was donning a black cloak, despite it being out of season, only slightly more of a reaction than Lucrecia's reaction of seeing Sephiroth in her recent dreams.

From here, one would have to take a more subjective assumption, though it's certainly not an inaccurate one: Most people aren't comfortable with themselves. The massive amount of cosmetics one can see in a retail store is proof of this. Few people really are comfortable with who they are and exude self-confidence in all they do. If this self-acceptance were the requirement for mental fortitude, that would explain why only a few would be capable of entering SOLDIER (Cloud: "For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER."). While one might consider it a bit of a stretch to assume mental strength to be what Cloud meant, considering that when he speaks of his own weakness in that same scene, he's referring to his mental weakness, it's a safe assumption:

Quote

Cloud
        "You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
        "Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"
        "For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER."
        "It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion."
        "But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing."

I say he's referring to his mental weakness here because he says that weak people like himself get lost in the experimentation that members of SOLDIER undergo. We see him lost mentally on more than one occassion, first after Zack broke him out of the Shinra Mansion, and later after his fall into the Lifestream.

Now one would need to question what caused Cloud and the survivors in Nibelheim to become lost in the first place. I believe this would be due to the knowledge of those who had lived and died in the past contained within the Mako that was infused into them. Early in the game, during the Kalm Flashback, Sephiroth reveals that Materia functions the way it does because the knowledge/memories contained within interacts between the wielder of Materia and the Planet, manifesting Magic:

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"...the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients is held in the
materia."
        "Anyone with this knowledge can freely use the powers of the Land
and the Planet.

Keeping this in mind, Materia is crystalized Mako, and Mako is condensed (more solidified) Lifestream. If the knowledge is within the Materia, then it must have been in the Lifestream, and is, consequently, also within Mako (refer also to what is said in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within concerning Earth's Gaia (Lifestream): It is said that when one dies, their soul returns to the Gaia (Lifestream), taking the memories and experiences of its lifetime with it; knowledge would be part of that).

Therefore, when one is infused with Mako, their body is essentially being flooded with not only solidified Spirit Energy, but the memories of the past dead, as well. Obviously, this would place a strain on anyone's mind, but imagine the strain it would place on the mind of one who wasn't comfortable with theirself to begin with, didn't understand theirself, or didn't accept theirself for themself. This would certainly account for why these people would become lost. In having all that other knowledge and other consciousnesses flooding into their mind, it's easy to see why one who wasn't comfortable with their own self would have difficulty holding on to it amidst all those other selves.

One final bit of information to consider in this matter is that after Tifa helps Cloud find himself in the Lifestream and his consciousness pieces itself back together, Cloud admits his weaknesses to the rest of AVALANCHE, and accepts himself as being weak:

Quote

Cloud
        "Everyone...... I'm sorry. I don't know what to say......"

Red XIII
        "Don't say anything, Cloud. All you've been doing is apologizing."

Cloud
        "I never was in SOLDIER."
        "I made up the stories about what happened to me five years ago,
about being in SOLDIER."
        "I left my village looking for glory, but never made it in to
SOLDIER......"
        "I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I heard this story from
my friend Zack..."
        "And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen
in my life....."
        "And I continued to play the charade as if it were true."

Barret
        "Illusion, huh...? Pretty damn strong for a 'lusion, I'd say."

Cloud
        "I'm physically built like someone on SOLDIER."
        "Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult."
        "It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of
SOLDIER."

Cloud
        "You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
        "Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"
        "For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER."
        "It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion."
        "But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing."

After this point, he never again displays the mental weaknesses that had caused him to be forced into handing over the Black Materia, forced into beating Aerith, nearly forced into kill her, and, finally, coerced into willingly handing over the Black Materia.

During the game's ending, involving the battle with Cloud's consciousness -- whether it was an actual assault on his mind, initiated by using the JENOVA Cells within him as a link to his mind, or simply visceral imagery of him purging JENOVA/Sephiroth's influence from himself -- he shows that he has become strong mentally. Whether it was truly a mental assault that he defended against, or setting himself free and becoming autonomous, his mental strength had grown, and had done so in a very short span of time. The only major event that had recently come to pass involving his mind was the defragmentation of his psyche, and his subsequent status of being forced to come to terms with who he was, and even admitting it before those closest to him. After accepting that he was weak, became strong.

I doubt all of this was unintended by the writers.

*(Periodic Report to Professor Hojo.)

Quote

1 Clone Activity Report


Unforuntately, no 'CLONES' have left this town this quarter. As previously reported, the 'CLONES' seem to be sensing something. But all they say is 'reunion' or 'Sephiroth' and show no other signs of activity.

(From Zangan's letter to Tifa.)

Quote

"As I was coming out of the reactor, Shinra troops were just
arriving. I recall a scientist named Hojo was in charge. He ordered the
troops to gather up everyone still alive for the experiment. I didn't know
what type of experiment he was talking about, but I wasn't about to let
them have my dearest student."

Quote (Bahamut0013)

-Did Sephiroth have a tatoo? All while you follow him around, people mention an man with a cape and a sword and a tatoo of the number one on him. Since the real Seph was at the Northern Crater, it must have been a Jenova clone, but was the clone itself tatooed with the 1 or was it just imitating Seph's 1 tat?

A good question. Whether it was one of the Nibelheim experiment, or JENOVA in Sephiroth's form that bore the tattoo is uncertain. Dio seems to differentiate between the fellow with the "1" tattoo he spoke to and JENOVA impersonating Sephiroth:

(When first meeting Dio.)

Quote

Dio
        "By the way, boy, do you know what a 'Black Materia' is?"

        I know what it is
       
Dio
        "Ha ha ha.... that, I say, that's a good one, boy! But it's not
good to lie. You can't fool me."

Cloud
        "Why d'you ask me?"

Dio
        "Well, a while back, a boy your age came in and asked me if I had
a 'Black Materia.'"
        "I thought you might know who he was, seein' as how you're both
about the same age."

Cloud
        "Did he happen to have... a Black Cape..."

Dio
        "Why yes, yes indeed. And a tattoo on his hand that said '1'."

Cloud
        "Where did he go!?"

Dio
        "Ha ha ha, I have no idea."

(Later, after winning the Chocobo race that must be won in order to escape from the Corel Prison.)

Quote

"P.S. I just recently met Sephiroth. He must have a lot of fans
with boys your age."
        "Why don't you get his autograph? It seems he's headed toward the
South of the river, towards Gongaga."

This, of course, begs the question "Is the meeting with Sephiroth that Dio mentions the same meeting with the fellow he referred to earlier?". I would say "Not likely," as Dio knows no more at this point about Cloud being after Sephiroth than he did before, and earlier, he had no reason in the first place to hide such information as having met Sephiroth, especially when he is assuming Sephiroth to be popular with folks Cloud's age. It should also be considered that he says he had no idea where the fellow with the "1" tattoo went, yet he seemed to know the direction in which "Sephiroth" had gone. Again, there's the possibility that he was lying the first time in addition to not being entirely descriptive, but he would have had no reason to do so, nor was there suddenly reason for him to come clean later, as he was as unaware then that Cloud was chasing "Sephiroth" as he had been before. He only seemed to tell him because he assumed that Sephiroth would be popular with folks Cloud's age.

I, myself, would conclude that Sephiroth wasn't the fellow with the "1" tattoo. While true that Hojo seems to label all of his experiments (the black-cloaked folks from Nibelheim, Nanaki, and the creature called HO512 fought in Hojo's laboratory, perhaps he didn't do so with Sephiroth.

Quote (Bahamut0013)

-Hojo's report mentions that Cloud was responding to the Jenova, but makes no mention to how he responded to the Mako. This, along with the fact that Tifa's eyes did not glow after being exposed to mako, is the strongest arguement that Jenova makes the eyes glow, not mako.

The fact that the report bothers to mention Zack having had no reaction to JENOVA or Mako and that the report doesn't state that Cloud didn't fail to have a reaction to Mako causes the first point to cancel itself out. As for the second, we don't know how long a duration of exposure to Mako is required in order for one to have developed Mako Eyes. For that matter, Tifa fell into the Lifestream, and not Mako, the condensed by-product of the Lifestream. Aside from us not knowing how long one would need to be exposed to either material, we don't know that the body would retain Lifestream in its raw form as it does when it has become more solid. For that matter, people already have some of the Lifestream within their bodies (their Spirit Energy), yet their eyes do not glow until they have undergone the experimentation conducted on members of SOLDIER or the Nibelheim survivors. There's simply far too many variables of which we have no means of testing to form a conclusion beyond the one given to us by the game, especially when a suggestion to the contrary of what was originally offered isn't put forward.

For that matter, we know that the Lifestream and Mako glow, anyway.


Anyone else have thoughts on this matter?

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 26th March 2005 02:15

--------------------

My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

Quote

Quote

-Is it ever mentioned why Cloud failed to become a SOLDIER?

It seems to be indicated that he was too weak mentally.

Little weak, maybe, but there is not enough info from the game. From my experience, mental weakness is not a static thing (proven by how well Cloud recovered after Tifa reconstructed his psyche), and not easily quantified. Even weak-minded people can survive careful scrutiny by simply closing out everything but the objective (how do you think I survived boot camp?); but Cloud must have somehow failed that somehow and was cut.

Quote

Quote

-Assuming for a moment that he did not mistake Cloud for Zack, why was he labeled a failure? Because he didn't show any of his strength until AFTER he escaped?

Cloud was the one to tell Hojo he was a failure. Assuming Hojo didn't mistake Cloud for the SOLDIER that had been a failure, he called him a failure because he had Cloud standing before him without a tattoo saying he had been a failure. Reason enough, I would say.

OK, but where did Cloud get this conclusion? I recall Hojo stating that he had previously evaluated him as such at the Northern Crater, and the fact that he received no tattoo is example enough that Hojo had not evaluated him as worthy of tracking further, in addition to his willingness to accept the report that he and Zack were killed (remember that the grunts assumed he wouldn’t survive). Also, the man in Sector 5 (in the pipe) had a tattoo of the number 2, marking him as one of the men in black (he is not there after the Reunion), but he was suffering from exactly what Cloud suffered from after his experimentation; what would make this man a success and not Cloud?

Quote

Quote

-How did Zack resist (or fail, depending on your view) the effects of Jenova/Mako while Cloud and 12 others did respond to it (obviously at least one of them did, the man who said he used to be in SOLDIER then dresses in black as an effect of the Reunion)? Are all 12 tattooed individuals the survivors of Nibelheim, and are all of the survivors of Nibelheim the 12 tattooed men? Were all of them pressed into service as SOLDIERS?

The Junon Accessory Shop owner was not forced to go to the Reunion. [You didn't seem to notice, Bahamut0013, that he wasn't one of those black-cloaked folks from Nibelheim. They were the folks that survived Sephiroth's massacre there, and were then captured and experimented on by Hojo. He wasn't one of them. Refer to the Periodic Report to Professor Hojo on the desk in the upstairs of "Tifa's house" in the present day Nibelheim and Zangan's letter to Tifa that is within "her" piano there. I'll post them at the end of this article.

OK, but how does this prove he was not one of them, unless there is some context for the report I’m not seeing. But if you’re correct, that proves that all subsequent SOLDIERs were subjected to Jenova (after all, how would Cloud know if he was never in SOLDIER?). But the question of whether all 12 men are the subjects that survived Nibelheim (in other words, are there any of the 12 tattooed men in black that were not from Nibelheim), and vice versa, are still unanswered.
I’ve figured the answer to one of my own questions, though: the 12 men in black were most likely NOT drafted into service for SOLDIER, because the ones that responded to Jenova (like Cloud) probably showed symptoms similar to those he did (the man in the tunnel in Midgar with the 2), and therefore unfit for military service. Even if they did not, they were still civilians that had not volunteered for anything Shinra had done to them, and would still not be suitable.

Quote

Quote

-Did Sephiroth have a tattoo? All while you follow him around, people mention an man with a cape and a sword and a tattoo of the number one on him. Since the real Seph was at the Northern Crater, it must have been a Jenova clone, but was the clone itself tattooed with the 1 or was it just imitating Seph's 1 tat?

A good question. Whether it was one of the Nibelheim experiment, or JENOVA in Sephiroth's form that bore the tattoo is uncertain. Dio seems to differentiate between the fellow with the "1" tattoo he spoke to and JENOVA impersonating Sephiroth. This, of course, begs the question "Is the meeting with Sephiroth that Dio mentions the same meeting with the fellow he referred to earlier?". I would say "Not likely," as Dio knows no more at this point about Cloud being after Sephiroth than he did before, and earlier, he had no reason in the first place to hide such information as having met Sephiroth, especially when he is assuming Sephiroth to be popular with folks Cloud's age. It should also be considered that he says he had no idea where the fellow with the "1" tattoo went, yet he seemed to know the direction in which "Sephiroth" had gone. Again, there's the possibility that he was lying the first time in addition to not being entirely descriptive, but he would have had no reason to do so, nor was there suddenly reason for him to come clean later, as he was as unaware then that Cloud was chasing "Sephiroth" as he had been before. He only seemed to tell him because he assumed that Sephiroth would be popular with folks Cloud's age. I, myself, would conclude that Sephiroth wasn't the fellow with the "1" tattoo. While true that Hojo seems to label all of his experiments (the black-cloaked folks from Nibelheim, Nanaki, and the creature called HO512 fought in Hojo's laboratory, perhaps he didn't do so with Sephiroth.

Well, part of the answer would stem from who you think Cloud and company were following—a clone that managed to capture Sephiroth’s appearance, or a projection of Jenova. But we cannot discount the possibility of both. Also, the many people who mention that they saw a man in a cape or a man with a number 1 tattoo (not just Dio) would not know the difference between a clone/Jenova and the real Sephiroth anyway, so their statements can only be taken for a report on the whereabouts of the clone/Jenova they’ve seen pass by.

Otherwise, you’ve answered my questions well. Thanks for your input, very thorough. But I am also curious what others have to say. Thoughts, ladies and gents?


--------------------

M777: lightweight 155mm howitzer
3/11 rules over all artillery!

Quote (bahamut0013 @ 26th March 2005 00:12)

OK, but where did Cloud get this conclusion? I recall Hojo stating that he had previously evaluated him as such at the Northern Crater, and the fact that he received no tattoo is example enough that Hojo had not evaluated him as worthy of tracking further, in addition to his willingness to accept the report that he and Zack were killed (remember that the grunts assumed he wouldn’t survive). Also, the man in Sector 5 (in the pipe) had a tattoo of the number 2, marking him as one of the men in black (he is not there after the Reunion), but he was suffering from exactly what Cloud suffered from after his experimentation; what would make this man a success and not Cloud?

I should have been more clear. It was Cloud at the Northern Crater who told Hojo that he was a failure. He said this based on what JENOVA/Sephiroth told him a moment before:

Quote

Sephiroth
        "Five years ago you were..."
        "...constructed by Hojo, piece by piece, right after Nibelheim
was burnt."
        "A puppet made up of vibrant Jenova cells, her knowledge, and the
power of Mako."
        "An incomplete Sephiroth-clone. Not even given a number. ...That
is your reality."

Quote

Hojo
        "Ha, ha, ha... this is perfect!!!"
        "It means that my experiment was a complete success!"

Hojo
        "What number were you? Huh? Where is your tattoo?"

Cloud
        "Professor Hojo... I don't have a number."
        "You didn't give me one because I was a failed experiment."

Hojo
        "What the--? You mean only a failure made it here?"

Cloud
        "Professor... please give me a number. Please, Professor..."

Hojo
        "Shut up, miserable failure..."

Cloud wasn't a failure at all. He didn't get a number because Zack broke himself and Cloud out of the Shin-Ra Mansion before he could be given one. Cloud hadn't recalled this yet when telling Professor Hojo that he was a failure.

Quote (Bahamut0013)

OK, but how does this prove he was not one of them, unless there is some context for the report I’m not seeing.

The context would be "...no 'CLONES' have left the town this quarter," implying that the point of origin for all of them would be right there in Nibelheim, the same place that was burned to the ground and where the survivors of Sephiroth's massacre were gathered up for an experiment.

Quote (Bahamut0013)

But if you’re correct, that proves that all subsequent SOLDIERs were subjected to Jenova (after all, how would Cloud know if he was never in SOLDIER?). But the question of whether all 12 men are the subjects that survived Nibelheim (in other words, are there any of the 12 tattooed men in black that were not from Nibelheim), and vice versa, are still unanswered.

The game offers a simple, straightforward explanation for it, though (a rare instance and I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth). It doesn't imply any other possibility, and looking beyond it will only leave you with questions that couldn't possibly be answered.

Quote

Well, part of the answer would stem from who you think Cloud and company were following—a clone that managed to capture Sephiroth’s appearance, or a projection of Jenova. But we cannot discount the possibility of both. Also, the many people who mention that they saw a man in a cape or a man with a number 1 tattoo (not just Dio) would not know the difference between a clone/Jenova and the real Sephiroth anyway, so their statements can only be taken for a report on the whereabouts of the clone/Jenova they’ve seen pass by.

Why would they know the difference? The indication given is that JENOVA's Cells can take on any form and look like anyone. As far as appearances go, there would be no reason anyone would know that it was JENOVA walking around and not Sephiroth:

Quote

Sephiroth
        "Cloud... Don't blame Tifa."
        "The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the
power of Jenova."

For that matter, Cloud -- who had actually been around the real Sephiroth -- didn't even know it wasn't really him until the Sephiroth form at the Northern Crater plainly became JENOVA-DEATH in front of the party, not flying away this time, and not vanishing in a flash of red light, just plainly transforming:

Quote

(The Sephiroth form appears above AVALANCHE and descends on them. The Sephiroth form lands and turns to face them with its sword drawn and in a battle-ready position. The screen transitions immediately to the boss battle with JENOVA-DEATH. JENOVA-DEATH is defeated.)

        "Jenova's cells..."
        "...hmm. So that's what this is all about."
        "The Jenova Reunion..."

Tifa
        "Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we
were after?"

Quote (Bahamut0013)

Otherwise, you’ve answered my questions well. Thanks for your input, very thorough.

You're welcome.

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 26th March 2005 08:08

--------------------

My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

Your theory is pretty sound, SoS. Let me see if I can trim it down to its finer points:

- Members of SOLDIER are exposed to Mako and injected with JENOVA cells (Sephiroth is different because he was injected while in Lucretia's womb)

- The self confident/strong willed will resist the negative side effects of Mako and JENOVA cells

- The people from Nibelheim, including Cloud, are experimented on in a fashion similar to those from SOLDIER:

Quote

Cloud
"Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult."
"It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of
SOLDIER."

(aside: how Cloud knows this is beyond me, unless he was conscious of what Hojo was doing to him in the basement...which I doubt, given how he looked after Zack busted him out)

- The people from Nibelheim are not self confident/strong willed, so their exposure to Mako makes them catatonic, and injection with JENOVA cells makes them susceptible to Sephirorth/JENOVA's control and calls them to the reunion.

- Cloud is not self confident/strong willed, so he is susceptible to Sephiroth/JENOVA's control

- Members of SOLDIER are self confident/strong willed, so Mako does not make them catatonic, and JENOVA cells do not call them to the reunion, though they may feel some calling from Sephiroth/JENOVA (i.e. the man from Junon, who dons a black cape but never leaves)

- Cloud finally becomes self confident/strong willed after Tifa guides him out of the lifestream, and he is finally able to resist Sephiroth/JENOVA


I think that about sums it up. Now, a few holes that I see with this:

1. How did Shin-Ra determine that Cloud was not strong enough for SOLDIER? You indicate that one way to measure mental strength is by observing reaction to Mako.

Quote (Squall of SeeD)

Therefore, when one is infused with Mako, their body is essentially being flooded with not only solidified Spirit Energy, but the memories of the past dead, as well. Obviously, this would place a strain on anyone's mind, but imagine the strain it would place on the mind of one who wasn't comfortable with theirself to begin with, didn't understand theirself, or didn't accept theirself for themself. This would certainly account for why these people would become lost. In having all that other knowledge and other consciousnesses flooding into their mind, it's easy to see why one who wasn't comfortable with their own self would have difficulty holding on to it amidst all those other selves.

But Shin-Ra couldn't have used this as a determinant of Cloud's eligibility for SOLDIER. He wasn't exposed to Mako before he was rejected. He only received exposure to it after Hojo experimented on him.

So how did Shin-Ra determine Cloud wasn't strong enough for SOLDIER? There must have been some other method.

2. If Mako is what makes the clones catatonic, why doesn't it have the same effect on Cloud? Granted, he certainly acts the same way after Zack rescues him, but then he recovers, while the other clones only seem to get worse.

3. Isn't the purpose of the reunion to gather up all of the lost JENOVA cells? That seems to be the entire purpose of the clones going to the Northern Crater and jumping into the abyss.

If that's the case, why didn't Sephiroth/JENOVA try harder to get the members of SOLDIER to participate? Obviously, Sephiroth/JENOVA could exert some form of influence on them, hence the Junon man in the black cape. I understand members of SOLDIER might have the mental capacity to resist full mind manipulation, but why not send a Sephiroth replica (the exact duplicates of Sephiroth that are chased in disk 1...Jenova body parts, the clones, or mental projections depending on your interpretation) to abduct them, or kill them on the spot and drag the corpses back to the Northern Crater? It just seems silly to call 12 clones to the reunion and leave all those other spare JENOVA cells floating around.

Quote (Squall of SeeD @ 26th March 2005 03:06)

Quote (bahamut0013)

Also, the many people who mention that they saw a man in a cape or a man with a number 1 tattoo (not just Dio) would not know the difference between a clone/Jenova and the real Sephiroth anyway, so their statements can only be taken for a report on the whereabouts of the clone/Jenova they’ve seen pass by.

Why would they know the difference?

I think you missed a word, there. Not that I blame you, there were a hella lot of words to read and most people probably only skimmed it anyway.

Kefka, let me take a crack at it:
1) Mako is not the only method of testing mental fortitude. I've been subject to a number of training sessions that test and develop that very thing, such as the ability to make decisions under stress and how a person responds to crisis (real or manufactured). I'd say Cloud managed to fail something at some point, whether at his basic training, some kind of indoc, an evaluation prior to application to the SOLDIER program, or possibly he was accepted into training, but found lacking during.
2) Cloud had both Zack and Tifa to focus on and create the phony memories that anchored him into consciousness. Or perhaps the other clones did not behave the same way, and eventually recover for a while. Or perhaps Hojo deliberately did not allow them to come into contact with anything that would allow them to regain thier sense of self.
3) There is no indication of how many SOLDIERS were developed after the experimentation at Nibelheim, but I would estimate between 20 and 200 (any less, and they wouldn't bother cleating that three class rank system, andy more and they cease to be an exclusive and elite force). Whatever number, abducting them and hauling them back for the Reuinion would be rather inefficient. Or perhaps the dosage they recieved was smaller than those of the men in black, thus the influence was lower and made no point in going after them. It would be like the mafia breaking a guy's leg for the ten cents he owed them.

--------------------

M777: lightweight 155mm howitzer
3/11 rules over all artillery!

Quote (bahamut0013)

1) Mako is not the only method of testing mental fortitude. I've been subject to a number of training sessions that test and develop that very thing, such as the ability to make decisions under stress and how a person responds to crisis (real or manufactured). I'd say Cloud managed to fail something at some point, whether at his basic training, some kind of indoc, an evaluation prior to application to the SOLDIER program, or possibly he was accepted into training, but found lacking during.

I agree.

Quote (bahamut0013)

2) Cloud had both Zack and Tifa to focus on and create the phony memories that anchored him into consciousness. Or perhaps the other clones did not behave the same way, and eventually recover for a while. Or perhaps Hojo deliberately did not allow them to come into contact with anything that would allow them to regain thier sense of self.

Except there are clones in Nibelheim. Being in close promitiy to one another, in their original hometown, should have anchored them in consciousness as well.

I think maybe Cloud was just stronger than them. Cloud was a good enough Shinra guard that he was sent to accompany members of SOLDIER, including Sephiroth. So I guess he was stronger than most, if not strong enough to make it into SOLDIER.

Quote (bahamut0013)

3) There is no indication of how many SOLDIERS were developed after the experimentation at Nibelheim, but I would estimate between 20 and 200 (any less, and they wouldn't bother cleating that three class rank system, andy more and they cease to be an exclusive and elite force). Whatever number, abducting them and hauling them back for the Reuinion would be rather inefficient. Or perhaps the dosage they recieved was smaller than those of the men in black, thus the influence was lower and made no point in going after them. It would be like the mafia breaking a guy's leg for the ten cents he owed them.

The part I bolded makes sense. Other than that, why gather the cells of 12 clones and forget about the cells of 20-200 SOLDIERs?

How could the mafia analogy not make sense??!?!?! My "associates" will be by to pay you a "visit" soon.

Anyway, let's get serious:

Quote (KefkaLives)

Except there are clones in Nibelheim. Being in close promitiy to one another, in their original hometown, should have anchored them in consciousness as well.

Because they all recieved a similar procedure does not mean they would be a good focus point for one another. In fact, I think they'd be the worst candidates for the job. Remember, these men are floating, lost, in a sea of knowledge, miles away from themselves, and thus, anything close to sanity. While it's true that two drowning men could cling to eachother and float; that only keeps them from drowning, not rescues them from the drink. Relying on eachother would not help them make it back to logic and good self-image.

--------------------

M777: lightweight 155mm howitzer
3/11 rules over all artillery!

Sorry about the misunderstanding a few Posts above, bahamut. Perhaps I shouldn't be posting before going to bed when sleepy. Ah, what the hell, I'm doing it again right now. >>;

Anyway, what you just said concerning the black-cloaked folks is the point I was going to make: All of them were in the same shape. Cloud had Zack to focus on, someone who wasn't mentally fucked. Seeing as how he incorporated the stories that Zack told him into his recollection of his own past certainly supports the notion that focusing on Zack's psyche was what held him to some measure of sanity. Seeing Tifa, the one for whom he had wanted to be like Zack, would have possibly been the nail in the coffin, pushing that psyche to the forefront of Cloud's mind.

I also agree with your point concerning testing Cloud's mental strength. The militaries that actually exist have ways of testing one's mental fortitude, and they don't involve Mako-infusion (as far as we know).

--------------------

My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

Makes me wonder what was in that flu shot now...

--------------------

M777: lightweight 155mm howitzer
3/11 rules over all artillery!

also i'm pretty sure that it was something to do with the high mako energy in the area that caused CLouds memories to mix with Zacks before he died

i read that somewhere

--------------------

(||*||)"The weak lose their freedom to the strong" - Kuja, FFIX...Why do I get the feeling that Advent Children will NEVER be released in Australia *shakes fist* (||*||)

Quote (bahamut0013 @ 27th March 2005 00:27)

How could the mafia analogy not make sense??!?!?! My "associates" will be by to pay you a "visit" soon.

Haha, yeah, I get it.

Anyway, seems like a pretty thorough explanation to me. The only problem is this: the clones wander around the world. During their journies they would have come across something, if not Nibelheim, that similarly jogged their memories, no?

Anyway, I'm spent.

Quote (jhimbob @ 28th March 2005 02:17)

also i'm pretty sure that it was something to do with the high mako energy in the area that caused CLouds memories to mix with Zacks before he died

i read that somewhere

That would be a theory that's not substantiated by the game. I don't see any reason why that should have done any such thing. Zack's Spirit Energy didn't enter Cloud, so his memories wouldn't have entered Cloud. Only those memories which Zack had told Cloud about or that Cloud knew about Zack already would have been incorporated. Note that he doesn't adopt Zack's entire life, just his occupation and part of his role in Nibelheim.

Quote (KefkaLives)

Anyway, seems like a pretty thorough explanation to me. The only problem is this: the clones wander around the world. During their journies they would have come across something, if not Nibelheim, that similarly jogged their memories, no?

By that point, it would have likely been far too late to matter, especially with JENOVA/Sephiroth exerting control over them.

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 29th March 2005 00:19

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke