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I have a question that's been bugging me. Does anyone know for sure, with proof from the game if possible, why Celes was imprisoned at the beginning of the game? What did she do? I know she was a traitor, but what was her crime, or at least the one she was accused of?

All replies with "I don't know"  or "Uhh...I guess she did something wrong" will be shot :-P

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

There's no mention of what it was from all I've seen.

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

Hmm, okay thanks Master Zed, I'll take your word for it. You'd think that that would be something they'd mention. Ah well.

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

This is exactly what fanfics are for!

Personally, I believe she simply had a strike of conscience when told to do some absurdely cruel act by the emporer and refused the order, or something along those lines.

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Farts

Twarts

I would agree with that theory, 'cause now that I think about it, Leo didn't know about what Kefka was going to do, but Celes did know about the plan to poison Doma's waters, and I can't find any mention of it from anyone else in the script.  If I were to assume anything about her crime, she probably refused to poison the water herself.

Of course, it's only theory, don't take it too seriously, but using the script, this seems to be the only guess that has any backup from the game.

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

It is commonly said Celes saw the Empire evil ways and walked out on them. For doing so she was to be executed. Which comes to my theory. If Celes knew about Kefka's plan. Gesthal may have also known as well. And not tell Leo because if Leo found out he cetainly would have turned on the Empire. Gesthal may have suggested poisoning Doma so he would have an army of Doma knights down his throat. Each General had his uses Leo had the respect of the army. Kefka could get the job done. Celes would have been balanced between the two. But if Celes did torch Maranda. She may have seen the beauty of life she never had and destroyed it for other people. Her guilt may have been a major factor for her decision to defect from the Empire.

I could've sworn they gave a reason.  Maybe they just said that there was a theory.  Personally, I think that Celes had some order to kill everyone, but instead she let them escape.  So by not following the order she was imprisoned.  Could be a lot of things, though.  Maybe she actually had sympathy for the people and informed them of an attack before it happened.  Or she could have just done the Moses thing and killed one of her own soldiers to save an innocent.

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I find your lack of faith disturbing...

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa *woof*

I thought it had something to do with burning Maranda myself, but then again, the game really never does disclose that information.

Burning Maranda.. I remember something about Maranda being burnt. But didn't Kefka hit it with his Light'o'Judgement?

Quote (FraudulentTommah @ 12 Oct. 2002, 16:56)

Burning Maranda.. I remember something about Maranda being burnt. But didn't Kefka hit it with his Light'o'Judgement?

That's Tzen you're thinking of. He uses the Light of Judgement on Tzen after he alters the world. Miranda was burnt by the Empire in the World of Balance.

as for me, i also agree that she had a sudden twinge of conscience and thought what they were doing was wrong. And she was charged with treason. That's what i think anyway.

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"When I turn the page
The corner bends into the perfect dog ear
As if the words knew I'd need them again
But at the time, I didn't see it."

~"This Ain't a Surfin' Movie" - Minus the Bear

The way it's presented, it appears to be the attack on Maranda.  Leo has the respect of the army, and Kefka has no respect for life, but Cid is loyal to Celes, and I don't think it turns out in their best interest to try to execute her.  Therefore, I'd have to think that it would definitely be a real change in opinion on her part.  I'd have to say that Maranda made her start thinking about it, shook her opinion.  Once the usage of poison was authorized (Celes and Kefka are closer to the Emperor, Leo seems closer to the troops), she split.

I just looked at a script that was taken from a translation (obviously), and it says Doma is the cause.

"This is what happens to traitors!"

"So, the invincible Shogun Celes has fallen to the rank of a petty prisoner."

Celes
"Weaklings, ganging up on me like that...  Don't you see that they're going to...?"
"Shut up!"

Celes
"Cefca is about to carry out a plan to massacre the eastern land of Doma using poison!  Don't you...?!"
"I told you to shut up!"

"Tch.  You'll be executed tomorrow, anyway.  You know too much about our troop movements, after all.  Have a nice last night alive!"

"Keep a keen eye on her!"

"Sir!  I can stay awake for three days and three nights without a wink of sleep!"

I dunno about proof, but there was buku tension between her and Kefka.  Maybe she just told him "no" one night, and the rest is just trumped up charges... which she was found guilty of and thus lost her faith in the Emperor and his Empire.

That's my only input....

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Kimi ga ite, boku ga iru.
Sore dake sa.  Sore ga subete sa.

Translated:
You're here, and I'm here.
That's all.  That's everything.

Quote (Sabin @ 12 Oct. 2002, 16:1

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That's Tzen you're thinking of. He uses the Light of Judgement on Tzen after he alters the world. Miranda was burnt by the Empire in the World of Balance.

As I recall, Kefka blasts several towns with the Big, Scary Laser of Deciding after the world is undone. He blasts Tzen, levels Mobliz, does a little damage to South Figaro, and maby some others I can't remember.

Sorry about going off topic like that...

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*END TRANSMISSION*

I don't think it was anything of importance. She may have ignored a small order, because think about it, Celes is insignificant to the Empire. Kefka could have made up any excuse to get rid of her.

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Lou: There's a couple of guys fighting down at the aquarium, Chief.
Wiggum: Do they still sell those frozen bananas?
Lou: I think so.
Wiggum: Let's roll.

Yeah, I always thought it was because she spoke out about the Doma thing... but then there are some wholes in that, depending on which scenario you play first. I think it was Cid who said that Celes realised the empire was evil before anyone else. So maybe it was nagging at her until she said something she shouldn't have. Or her superiors just thought she had became week, because she may have started to take pity on the people she was told to murder. Also, she knew about the surprize attack on Narshe and told Locke when he saved her, it could have been that was something she wasn't suposed to know.

Quote

The way it's presented, it appears to be the attack on Maranda.

I thought it had to do with the Maranda thing myself. Tim mentions in the game:

"That's General Celes, she torched Maranda" or something like that. But he probably just heard that as a rumor, but acctually Celes burnt the town and saved the townspeople. Then the Emporer and Kefka called her a traitor for decieving, or something like that. That's my opinion.

This post has been edited by FF Master on 4th April 2006 03:44

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Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Chrsit for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Acts 4:12

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

The game is very clear about Celes's story.

Maranda has nothing to do with her being a traitor. She was just responsible for its occupation.

She was a traitor because she realized that the empire is wrong and the boiling point for her was the imminent poisening of Doma. Fighting against this and trying to let out this huge secret would obviously piss off Ghestal and put her in Jail.
If you play the original Japanese English Translation version, it is a little more clear.

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I'VE HAD AN ETERNITY TO PONDER THE MEANING OF THINGS. AND NOW I HAVE AN ANSWER...

I've always philosophised that Celes was imprisoned because she heard about the Imperial Raid on Narshe, and I predict she spoke out against the invasion of a neutral town. She was probably imprisoned because of that, heh. -CSM

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Quote (because555 @ 4th April 2006 05:13)

The game is very clear about Celes's story.

Maranda has nothing to do with her being a traitor. She was just responsible for its occupation.

She was a traitor because she realized that the empire is wrong and the boiling point for her was the imminent poisening of Doma. Fighting against this and trying to let out this huge secret would obviously piss off Ghestal and put her in Jail.
If you play the original Japanese English Translation version, it is a little more clear.

Exactly.

Cid openly explains to you that Celes objected to Gestahl's war. That paired with the fact that she appeared urgent about getting the word out about the plan to massacre Doma makes her act of treason rather unmistakeable.

Maranda's clearly not the issue, plus there's no reason whatsoever to believe Celes didn't torch the town; the only info about it we're given states that she was the one in charge of its burning, so therefore it's considered fact. Seeing as that was an Imperial matter she carried out, there's also no reason to believe it would have anything to do with her imprisonment.

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Words of Wisdom:

If something can go wrong, it will.

If anything simply cannot go wrong, it will anyway.

If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong. - Murphy’s Law

Boing! Zoom! - Mr. Saturn

She was a rebel sympathizer and a traitor to the glorious Empire. They should have foregone the brig and immediately found her guilty in a military tribunal and sentenced to death...... A sentence which should have been carried out immediately following the trial.

This post has been edited by Hamedo on 7th April 2006 12:05

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Quote (Hamedo @ 7th April 2006 04:02)

She was a rebel sympathizer and a traitor to the glorious Empire.  They should have foregone the brig and immediately found her guilty in a military tribunal and sentenced to death......  A sentence which should have been carried out immediately following the trial.

That's questionable. Celes was rather reluctant to follow Locke when he first showed up to question her. Given her age, her position, and her augmentation, it's not without reason to believe that she still expected to be found innocent of her crime.
That is to say that originally, she believed Locke was an incapable warrior. As such, being caught escaping would surely be worse than going through whatever charade they intended to put a general through.
Of course, likely anything is a step above being caught escaping and killed on the spot...

And remember, this is the Empire. Emperor Gestahl still sympathizes with Celes Chere, a fact shown by their encounter on the Floating Continent. An Imperial Pardon is easily possible, even ignoring her position. Just look at the lack of her beheading immediately after the Magitek Factory.

Thus, it is clear that it was Kefka who arranged for her to be imprisioned, and likely executed on the field (occupied South Figaro...) without trial. No one else in the canonical Empire would have suffered more from wide-spread knowledge about the plan to poison Doma than General Palazzo. Emperor Gestahl was likely in the dark until after the fact.

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

I highly doubt that ghestal was left in the dark about Doma's poisening. He for sure knew about it and was probably happy that the occupation went quickly without losing resources.
Ghetahl was a very vicious person, and not that different than Kefka up until the Floating Island.

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I'VE HAD AN ETERNITY TO PONDER THE MEANING OF THINGS. AND NOW I HAVE AN ANSWER...

Quote (because555 @ 7th April 2006 11:40)

I highly doubt that ghestal was left in the dark about Doma's poisening. He for sure knew about it and was probably happy that the occupation went quickly without losing resources.
Ghetahl was a very vicious person, and not that different than Kefka up until the Floating Island.

There is no reason that Emperor Gestahl would have known about something as minor as a specific tactic used against the Kingdom of Doma. Whether or not he is vicious is immaterial, he is an Emperor and he had two highly ranked Generals in Doma taking care of the war. Just as General Christophe would not have alerted the Emperor that he was taking the 10th Regiment to cripple Castle Doma's supply train and begin a siege, General Palazzo would not have alerted the Emperor that he intended to poison a significant amount of said river.

Unless you have reason to suggest that Gestahl would have known about this specfic case, I don't see any reason to say 'He for sure knew about it and was probably happy'. Keep in mind that Doma was insignificant by then, the Imperial Armed Forces had bases established within sight of Castle Doma's walls. At worse they would have to besiege the castle, something they were already capable of doing given the fact that they occupied the Kingdom of Doma and dealt with the insurgencies there until the Treaty between the Empire and the Returners. Resources expended in conquest are actually less than that required of occupation.

And keep in mind this is the Empire. Do not draw parallels with present day military command structure (chief of which is the notion that a civilian leader is alerted of all major tactics and use of force). Communication technology simply isn't up to the task of updating a civilian government on the day to day progress of a war.

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

One major reason people believe that both Gestahl and Kefka were in on Doma's poisoning is 'cause Gestahl claimed to had imprisoned Kefka as punishment. As we know during the Imperial banquet sequence, he IS imprisoned, but not long afterward is released as if it were nothing and accompanies Gestahl to the Esper's realm.

Gestahl's claim to punish Kefka was likey a trick used to further acquire the trust of the Returners. In reality, he probably knew just as well 'bout Doma's fate. Some even speculate that the Emperor sent Leo away from the encampment outside Doma (via the letter) so as to not get in the way of the poisoning (and we all know Leo would've tried to stop that from happening just as much as he was left in the dark 'bout everything). For all any of us know, the act of poisoning Doma's water coulda been Gestahl's plan alone, but who else was at the right place at the right time and was morally corrupt enough to have done it?

Regardless, whichever way it is they chose to occupy the grounds, and why, doesn't necessarily have to be logical in a video game.

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Words of Wisdom:

If something can go wrong, it will.

If anything simply cannot go wrong, it will anyway.

If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong. - Murphy’s Law

Boing! Zoom! - Mr. Saturn

Quote (SilverFork @ 7th April 2006 21:25)

One major reason people believe that both Gestahl and Kefka were in on Doma's poisoning is 'cause Gestahl claimed to had imprisoned Kefka as punishment. As we know during the Imperial banquet sequence, he IS imprisoned, but not long afterward is released as if it were nothing and accompanies Gestahl to the Esper's realm.

Gestahl's claim to punish Kefka was likey a trick used to further acquire the trust of the Returners. In reality, he probably knew just as well 'bout Doma's fate.

There's a lot of speculation here without much evidence, given that we know how the Empire works.

How is it that Gestahl's claim to punish Kefka (which, by your admission, actually did happen, though perhaps not long enough to satisfy you) immediately suggests that the Emperor knew about Kefka's plan to poison Doma? Quite the leap of logic.

Quote (SilverFork @ 7th April 2006 21:25)

Some even speculate that the Emperor sent Leo away from the encampment outside Doma (via the letter) so as to not get in the way of the poisoning (and we all know Leo would've tried to stop that from happening just as much as he was left in the dark 'bout everything).

This makes no sense. You just pointed out that the Emperor used a letter, which lends credit to my evidence stating that the communication technology of the Empire is not capable of keeping him up to date on the daily happenings of a war. That letter must have been sent weeks in advance, at such a time that coordination of Kefka's appearance (given that he was at least at Figaro, if not also South Figaro) is almost impossible to guarantee! In addition, Leo had just recently launched multiple attacks on Castle Doma, chief of which was defeated by Retainer Cyan Garamonde. For all the Emperor could know, Doma would have already fallen by the time General Palazzo finally made his way to that side of the continent.

Your conspiracy theory requires an incredible degree of coordination and prescience that simply isn't available to Emperor Gestahl.

Quote (SilverFork @ 7th April 2006 21:25)

For all any of us know, the act of poisoning Doma's water coulda been Gestahl's plan alone, but who else was at the right place at the right time and was morally corrupt enough to have done it?

I have already answered this. Kefka. The egg is on Leo's face now that Kefka has brought down the Kingdom of Doma. It's a fantastic powerplay by General Palazzo to make the popular General Christophe look incompetent. It puts him in favor with Emperor Gestahl -- and considering that General Chere is already branded a traitor -- makes him the second most powerful man in the Empire.

What does Gestahl gain from poisoning Doma? Nothing. I've answered all those points in my previous post. It's silly to watch people spin Gestahl into this all-knowing villianous beast. He is powerhungry, yes, but he is no puppet master pulling strings like a diety.

Edit

A message arrived by a carrier pigeon actually, which would suggest the letter was written at most two days in advance, lending some credit to the theory that the Emperor may have known about the situation. However, it would require preplanning that still spans a week or two, something that is still out of Gestahl's league.

In addition, keep in mind that even Castle Doma was about to collapse. Doma Sentries had their morale crushed until Cyan Garamonde single handed took care of the Empire's command ranks in the canonical battle (and Cyan's first appearance). General Leo is quoted as saying they could crush Castle Doma at anytime, just that the loss of life was too great (for him to allow). The choas surrounding this type of 'siege' cannot be predicted. Castle Doma could literally have fallen at any time regardless of poison. Such would be General Christophe's coded report to Emperor Gestahl, making it even less likely that Gestahl would care at all for the insignificant reminants of the Kingdom of Doma.

This post has been edited by Elessar on 8th April 2006 21:09

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

Like I mentioned at the end of my pervious post, logic doesn't play a very large part in many of these scenes. For instance, who knows how long it takes for their birds to deliver messages? The one you follow from Maranda, for example, makes it to Zozo in under a minute, so Gestahl sending Leo a letter from Vector to Doma coulda also taken mere minutes (probably three minutes or less. They fly at 'bout the same rate as both airships).

Basically, since this's a video game featuring magic, humanoid monsters who become glowing rocks upon death, dinolike metal machines that shoot magic and torpedoes, an entire castle that can submerge beneath terrain and can even travel below mountain ranges, living dinosaurs, a purple octopus who submerges into the wooden opera stage as if it were water, dancing moogles, and Gogo, subtle bits of reality like the communication technology and the length of time taken to actually make full use of it doesn't exactly come off as something worthy of close attention. Not to mention that the game never once specifies to us how quickly messages can pass from one to another, so we can only assume goin' by what we see.

Quote (Elessar)

There's a lot of speculation here without much evidence, given that we know how the Empire works.
How is it that Gestahl's claim to punish Kefka (which, by your admission, actually did happen, though perhaps not long enough to satisfy you) immediately suggests that the Emperor knew about Kefka's plan to poison Doma? Quite the leap of logic.

That's not the only evidence, but Gestahl does - by asking the Returners - divulge a few punishments for the guy including execution and life in prison. However, once you arrive in Thamasa (after visiting the Espers hideaway), Kefka's free and trigger-happy once again - less than a whole 24 hours after his initial imprisonment and the Returners' alliance with the Empire.

'Sides, Gestahl never did come off as one who was real anxious 'bout keeping the guy locked up for his war crime.

As far as the letter goes, that's an example of the much-used "deus ex machina" tactic; with Leo in Doma, no poisoning woulda gone down, so something had to happen: Whether it be Kefka acting alone (doubtful since he wouldn't have been stationed there prior to Leo's "unexpected" call of leave for no reason) or the Emperor staging everything.

But when it comes right down to the mechanics of "how" or "why", I believe you may be thinkin' a bit too far into things. Like with most games, normality tends to take a backseat to most everything else. Without constant by-the-books logic, there's room open for speculation and, well, the use of imagination.

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Words of Wisdom:

If something can go wrong, it will.

If anything simply cannot go wrong, it will anyway.

If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong. - Murphy’s Law

Boing! Zoom! - Mr. Saturn

Quote (SilverFork @ 9th April 2006 05:19)

But when it comes right down to the mechanics of "how" or "why", I believe you may be thinkin' a bit too far into things. Like with most games, normality tends to take a backseat to most everything else. Without constant by-the-books logic, there's room open for speculation and, well, the use of imagination.

I completely agree. Final Fantasy is not a novel. The entire story is based on very small amounts of dialogue, so there are no clear answers to many questions posed in this forum.

But here's why I believe (not know!) Ghestal had prior knowledge about the poisening:

1) Celes knew about it before it happened. I doubt Kefka and Celes were the only ones who knew. The Empire jailed her to shut her mouth, and Ghestal must have been well aware that she was being a traitor and why...

2) I doubt Kefka would have forged a letter and given it to Leo, knowing that he'll go back to the Emporer for no reason like an idiot. Its likely Ghestal sent Leo to plan out the occupation and military tactics while allowing Kefka's to finish the job easily. Poisen may have been a last result in Ghestal's mind, but Kefka simply jumped the gun.

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I'VE HAD AN ETERNITY TO PONDER THE MEANING OF THINGS. AND NOW I HAVE AN ANSWER...

Quote (SilverFork @ 9th April 2006 02:19)

Like I mentioned at the end of my pervious post, logic doesn't play a very large part in many of these scenes. For instance, who knows how long it takes for their birds to deliver messages? The one you follow from Maranda, for example, makes it to Zozo in under a minute, so Gestahl sending Leo a letter from Vector to Doma coulda also taken mere minutes (probably three minutes or less. They fly at 'bout the same rate as both airships).

Carrier pigeons realistically fly at around 20 mph. Suggesting that the world is under 1 mile wide is beyond stupid. One must assume that for brevity, the game did not show how long it actually takes for the bird to travel that distance. In addition, we are talking about continents spanning a habitable world. We know that for a world to be habitable, it must be roughly the size of the earth. Science is universal.
So continents are likely the same size as those of ours, probably bigger since there are so few. I wouldn't expect a bird to travel across the world from Zozo to Maranda in anything less than a day (I would assume more, but I haven't done the scaling).

Quote (SilverFork @ 9th April 2006 02:19)

Basically, since this's a video game featuring magic, humanoid monsters who become glowing rocks upon death, dinolike metal machines that shoot magic and torpedoes, an entire castle that can submerge beneath terrain and can even travel below mountain ranges, living dinosaurs, a purple octopus who submerges into the wooden opera stage as if it were water, dancing moogles, and Gogo, subtle bits of reality like the communication technology and the length of time taken to actually make full use of it doesn't exactly come off as something worthy of close attention. Not to mention that the game never once specifies to us how quickly messages can pass from one to another, so we can only assume goin' by what we see.

You're trying to tell me that laws of science don't apply here because it's a video game. To say such a thing is basically trying to reduce this debate from intellectual analysis to "who can scream the loudest". If you want the latter, I will not entertain such a notion and frankly, expect better and think the game deserves better.

Quote (SilverFork @ 9th April 2006 02:19)

That's not the only evidence, but Gestahl does - by asking the Returners - divulge a few punishments for the guy including execution and life in prison. However, once you arrive in Thamasa (after visiting the Espers hideaway), Kefka's free and trigger-happy once again - less than a whole 24 hours after his initial imprisonment and the Returners' alliance with the Empire.

Lies.

Quote (FF6 script)

GESTAHL: I'm so terribly sorry!  Kefka's being severely punished, and we're cleaning up the poison.

Not to mention you are forgetting that they have to travel from Vector to Albrook, travel by ship to Thamasa. Stay one night with Strago. Find the Espers. And then Kefka shows up. 24 hours? Even canonically there's at least three nights. Realistically based on scaling of the world, it'll likely be close to two weeks.
None of which says anything about Gestahl, who gave the truth. Kefka was severely punished. Not by your standards though, as I already said.

Quote (SilverFork @ 9th April 2006 02:19)

'Sides, Gestahl never did come off as one who was real anxious 'bout keeping the guy locked up for his war crime.

What exactly are you trying to say here anyways? That if Gesthal tricked the Returners, that obviously he was the mastermind behind Doma poisoning? You haven't even given me any reason for Gestahl care about the Kingdom of Doma, much less proved the huge leap of logic you made.

Quote (SilverFork @ 9th April 2006 02:19)

As far as the letter goes, that's an example of the much-used "deus ex machina" tactic; with Leo in Doma, no poisoning woulda gone down, so something had to happen: Whether it be Kefka acting alone (doubtful since he wouldn't have been stationed there prior to Leo's "unexpected" call of leave for no reason) or the Emperor staging everything.

So? That just proves Kefka was lucky. And Kefka was already there before the Emperor's letter arrived. Clearly he was there acting as Leo's peer, as shown by their conversation on tactics, in his proper capacity as a General. Give it up with this ridiculous conspiracy theory.

Quote (SilverFork @ 9th April 2006 02:19)

But when it comes right down to the mechanics of "how" or "why", I believe you may be thinkin' a bit too far into things. Like with most games, normality tends to take a backseat to most everything else. Without constant by-the-books logic, there's room open for speculation and, well, the use of imagination.

It's too bad that logic does play a part in FF6, and that I have shown such things with evidence and no handwaving or appeals to ignorance. You haven't refuted any of my evidence, and merely continue to strawmander about.

Edit

There are two points that I felt were meaningless to the topic at hand, but probably should be addressed:
1) You are correct, I have put a great deal of time and effort into thinking about the FF6 world and reconciling what might have been plot holes and seeming contridictions. The result of this is a fanfiction that is currently posted here and spans some forty pages of background material, including mathematical scaling of the proper size of the Empire based on an extinction level event 1000 years past.
That is not to suggest that I can't be wrong. However, I believe that the FF6 world is very well made, the story cohesive and nearly everything can be explained simply and realistically. This is one of those cases.
2) You referred to Leo's disappearance as Deus Ex Machina. I propose another solution. Gestahl most certainly did not want Leo to conquer Doma, and when he got the last report in which Leo told Gestahl that Doma was pretty much fallen, bases established within sight of Castle Doma, Gestahl quickly sent a letter to remove Leo from his command. Reason?
Imperial politics. A General as popular as Leo would have gained a huge amount of influence by conquering the Kingdom of Doma. Perhaps enough to demand an equivalent of a Roman Tribute, and certainly win the hearts of much of the military. The Emperor cannot have an overly strong General, or else faces the possibility of losing the throne. Even if Leo is as loyal as he is, Gestahl could not take such a chance. It's a rather simple reasoning and stands up to historical scrutiny; Galba, Otho and Vitellius would have done well to follow what Gestahl has done.

This post has been edited by Elessar on 10th April 2006 06:26

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

Quote (because555 @ 9th April 2006 04:58)

I completely agree. Final Fantasy is not a novel. The entire story is based on very small amounts of dialogue, so there are no clear answers to many questions posed in this forum.

But here's why I believe (not know!) Ghestal had prior knowledge about the poisening:

1) Celes knew about it before it happened. I doubt Kefka and Celes were the only ones who knew. The Empire jailed her to shut her mouth, and Ghestal must have been well aware that she was being a traitor and why...

Do you listen to yourself? Your leaps of logic make Superman look bad.
Celes knew probably because Kefka told her. Kefka then jailed her when Celes was a wuss. See? Simple. No conspiracy theory needed. No prescience, overwhelming communication technology, or dark mastermind of all plots. Occam's Razor, and it also fits into the fact that Kefka is playing power games within the military to gain Gestahl's favor. A simple diamond fits the puzzle perfectly, but you keep trying to force a tetrahedron in.

This is the Empire. Do a little reading up on history. Rival Generals can easily shame each other without protection of their legions. It's the reason why Rome was supposed to never have any legions near it, and why Caeser had to march to Rome with three legions for his own protection. Because Generals are Gods in their own right on the battlefield. Their men follow them, hail them as Imperator, and will fight a civil war if the sword is drawn.

Quote (because555 @ 9th April 2006 04:58)

2) I doubt Kefka would have forged a letter and given it to Leo, knowing that he'll go back to the Emporer for no reason like an idiot. Its likely Ghestal sent Leo to plan out the occupation and military tactics while allowing Kefka's to finish the job easily. Poisen may have been a last result in Ghestal's mind, but Kefka simply jumped the gun.

Leo could have ended the war at anytime but paled in the face of normal armed force losses. He did not hold back for any reason other than his own conscience. This is canonical. We see this from a base in front of Castle Doma. We hear it in conversation. Stop making up lies about what Gestahl may or may not have done. The point is that Kefka only had a chance to poison Dome because Leo didn't attack when he should have.

Quote (FF6 Script)

(Soldier) General.  We're ready to take the castle.  Just give the order...
LEO: Patience!  If we attack now, we'll have to sacrifice too many lives.

So in conclusion, you assume that Gestahl holds no loyalty to Celes (which he clearly does, shown by the events of Floating Continent). Then you assume that Leo is going to be totally incompetent (when in reality, he brings down an entire Kingdom and sieges a castle with bases in visual range). Finally, you ignore all the issues with communication and Gestahl's lack of motive. Bravo zulu.

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.