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The classic quote of the night came from Bush: "Need some wood?" I thought that was absolutely hilarious. Bush gets my vote now.

Seriously though Bush looked a lot better tonight than in the last debate. I don't think many people can deny that but who knows. Kerry is the better speaker of the two and looked a lot calmer than Bush when he wasn't speaking (for some reason Bush looks very nervous when listening to Kerry even when he's in control). For me it's hard to say who won this debate. Both candidates criticize each other equally. They both have plans. They both twist facts to make themselves look good. They both put on a good show during the debate.

Question evasion wasn't as bad this time around as the past two debates, probably because the questions were being asked by the people, creating a more personal atmosphere for the candidates. The only big evasion was Bush failing to cite 3 judgemental errors during his time in office. First he started his answer by defending his decision to attack Saddam when that had nothing to do with the question. After talking about that for a bit he finally came back to the question and said something to the effect of "let the historians point out my mistakes".

One thing I find annoying about Kerry is how he runs off on his "I have a plan" tangents. He's done this so many times during his campaign and he did it again tonight. Sometimes he would reveal little tidbits about these plans but most of the time he wouldn't bother to explain not only what these plans are in detail but how they will be effective in improving the country. Bush on the other hand seems to be more informative and detailed, but perhaps that's just me. Kerry's antics are so entertaining that was he says often goes right over my head. He really gets those hand motions going and he talks with such fluency. Then there's the numerous "ladies and gentlemen" address to the crowd and the lip licking action with his tongue when he's on a roll. This guy's really a character up there.

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FFXI (Siren server)
Tauu the Windurstian Tarutaru!
White Mage & Paladin

I'd like to congratulate i90 for a moderately put and well thought post.

Really I agree with much of his analysis, and overall I think Bush did do a better job this time than his last debate. I think the American public will regard it as a tie. I still thought Kerry had the slight edge, but I would be biased since I'm rooting for that ticket.

The point I must certainly disagree with, however, is the quote of the night. I nearly burst out laughing but was surprised to find myself on the verge of tears when Bush said "the internets".

This post has been edited by The_Pink_Nu1 on 9th October 2004 06:36

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SPEKKIO: "GRRR...That was most embarrassing!"

Quote (The_Pink_Nu1 @ 9th October 2004 01:35)

I nearly burst out laughing but was surprised to find myself on the verge of tears when Bush said "the internets".

Well there is the Internet II, but yeah. Funny. I was at my friends' home eating thanksgiving dinner. I missed the debate on account of Shaolin Soccer. and Desert Combat.

Yes, Bush did far better on this one than the first. The style really suited his "aw shucks" way of speaking with the people, but I still don't think he's a very good orator, and that personally turns me off a bit.

My vote has already been decided barring some major crazy happening, so the debates do tend to bring out my proclivity towards Kerry. But by and large, I found last night's debate to be quite even. The only times Bush really got on my nerves were during the discussion on embryonic stem cells and on the environment, two issues that do matter to me.

I hadn't heard Kerry's thoughts on using unused embryos in fertility clinics before, and it rather appealed to me. But all Bush had to say about it was to attack Kerry's record on voting about it, trying to make it sound as if Kerry was flipflopping on it, when the truth of the matter could be that there was something appended to the bill that Kerry didn't like that had nothing to do with the bill itself. That happens ALL the time, but your average voter might not know that and really could be swayed by what might have been a half-truth.

Regarding the environment, Bush really wanted to make it sound as if he was responsible for a lot of things that I don't think he can actually prove. "The air and water are cleaner now than they were at the beginning of my presidency!" he said at least twice. That doesn't mean he did it. "I proposed hydrogen powered vehicles!" he said. No. The automakers have been working on it since at least his father's administration. They are in use now, having started as a small fleet for the municipality of Los Angeles in the fall/winter of 2002. And that had nothing to do with President Bush. He refused to sign the Kyoto treaty without offering ANYTHING better, and he still hasn't offered up anything at all. I learned in my business administration classes that a good manager or participant doesn't just whine about something being bad as he rejects it; he also creates counter suggestions.

As much as I hate to admit it, though, I think this debate was a dead heat.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

"There will be NO draft as long as I'm president".

I liked hearing that alot. Now here comes my question. Kerry said he wasn't for a draft either, but then he goes on to say he's going to increase the US troops by 40,000. Where are these 40,000 coming from? Bush didn't pick up on that or even comment on it. I did like how Bush talked about transformation in the military. Also, Kerry was pretty fiery when talking about Iran and North Korea, hmm.

Kerry looked at times like he wanted to just blow the whole debate open, but Bush kept coming back. So I'd call it a tie as well. I'm still undecided, though Bush caught up a few points in my poll.

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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

Though Bush did do much better than his first debate, I still have to give it to Kerry. My favorite part of the evening was when Bush argued with the moderator when Gibson was ready to move on. That and the fact that Bush almost never sat down. He kept getting up in the middle of Kerry's turns as though he was about to cut him off, which really shows a lack of poise on his part. It's a debate. Be calm.

Quote of the evening, however, was Bush's "I am opposed to the anything that comes from the destruction of human life" in response to a stem cell research question. While the quote in and of itself doesn't sound that bad, it was amazing when it came immedietly after a two minute speech by Kerry about how stem cell research in no way involves killing babies. Also, he said no less than 5 times that "we are a country at war". Didn't he declare the war officially over like a year ago?

Kerry was not the model of elegance and precision, but he had an answer for everything, and he never lost his cool. I was a bit upset about a lack of depth in anwers that regarded his specific plans, but then I went online to johnkerry.com and realized that most of them were way too detailed to go into in a 2 minute rant or a 90 second rebuttal. He twisted a few facts, but then who hasn't in a debate before. Bush did as well, so that negative cancels out.

I'll admit that I looked harder for faults while Bush was talking, because I hate him and it's really fun. Honestly though, some of his mistakes were so glaring that I can't see how anyone missed them. I think it's possible that my vote changed from Nadar to Kerry after this debate.

They both did well, and I regard it as a tie. I still think the debates are better suited for Kerry to make his case than for Bush to make his, though, and it's really not helping Bush in my eyes (not much he could do for that) when his style seems to only work if you already agree with his stance. It seems like in most of his rebuttals, he puts this face on where he's acting incredulous and acts like the entire audience should be feeling that way too, but the majority of them don't because Kerry was able to articulate his stance very well.

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

Quote (io_rage @ 9th October 2004 11:28)

Also, he said no less than 5 times that "we are a country at war". Didn't he declare the war officially over like a year ago?

He declared the War in Iraq over. The "War on Terror" is still as healthy as ever.

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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

Kerry won. Bush has been schooled in both debates. Kerry runs ciicles around the circus monkey with facts.

Quote (Tidu-who @ 9th October 2004 13:53)

Quote (io_rage @ 9th October 2004 11:28)

Also, he said no less than 5 times that "we are a country at war".  Didn't he declare the war officially over like a year ago?

He declared the War in Iraq over. The "War on Terror" is still as healthy as ever.

Ok, then we're "at war" with a feeling? Because that's what terror is. It's one thing to say that we are actively hunting terrorists, or even to say that we are in a state of emergency if it is truly as dire as some people believe it is, but you can't call us a country at war if our enemy is intangible. Even a war on terrorism, which I've heard it reffered to as, is still war on an abstract concept, not an enemy. Whatever you call it, we aren't at war. We're in a blood hunt. Which is fine, and I would even agree that it's necessary for homeland security, but address it correctly. Calling it a war either shows that you don't know what a real war is or that you're making this way more of a propaganda thing then it needs to be. I sort of suspect both.

Edit

I just looked this over, and it may seem I was ranting at you, Tidu-who. I wasn't. I was ranting at Bush.

This post has been edited by io_rage on 10th October 2004 16:18

I read over a transcript because i missed the debate. I'm gonna have to call it a tie.

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

I gave this one to Bush even though I gave the first one to Kerry. Bush cleaned up his act and actually had stuff to say this time, he confronted Kerry on issues and refuted his statements, it was encouraging to see that our President isn't a total blithering idiot. But the reason I gave him victory in this debate is that Kerry lost huge ground with me in the debate. If he had said "I have a plan" one more time I might have started muting him. Not once did he give a clear explanation on what his plan was or how he would achieve it, even when pressed by the Bush and the moderator. He claims he will get allies involved in the war, but Bush brought up a good point by asking how? The war isn't exactly a popular undertaking in many countries, I don't think countries are going to want to send troops on the strength of Kerry's leadership.
And his budget numbers were absurd, he claimed he's going to cut the deficit, add more spending to the "No Child Left Behind" (a mistake in the first place) and increase healthcare all the while making no effort to combat frivolous malpractice suits. I can't even remember all the claims he made, but it always followed with "I have a plan". The only part of the plan he outlined was repealling tax cuts to the rich, but as Bush pointed out, this directly affects small business as they comprise the majority of tax payers in that higher income bracket. He had an answer for everything, but none of it seemed credible to me.

Kerry worries me...Kerry worries me alot.

This post has been edited by The Ancient on 11th October 2004 14:54

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

My situation was quite different when I saw the second debate (for starters, it was 3:30 am), but that didn't stop me from being impartial enough to see that Bush was a better speaker than he was in the first debate. I spotted no silences (as opposed to #1) and he used less retoric tricks.

And he didn't bother me with his "But you switch(ed) sides!" argument which he kept repeating over and over again in the first debate. Dude, the wisest course of action can change of the situation changes, or if you receive more information. Continuing something you know didn't work so far is stupid, IMO, and shouldn't be looked at as 'strong'.

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Quote (i90east @ 9th October 2004 01:12)

The classic quote of the night came from Bush: "Need some wood?" I thought that was absolutely hilarious. Bush gets my vote now.

You know where that comes from, right? According to factchecker.com, when Bush was a private owner, he received $84 from a timber company, which technically would have qualified him as a "small business owner." Which is why Kerry brought it up to refute Bush's claims that his tax break would harm small businesses.

I think Kerry won, but he missed some key chances to put Bush away. Like in the environment part, I can't believe they got through the entire thing without ONCE mentioning the Alaska wildlife refuge. For Kerry to let Bush get away with that was awful.

I agree with Ancient that NCLB shouldn't exist, but if it is going to exist (which is unfortunately inevitible) it should at least be properly funded. In the school where I'm doing my student teaching there's one teacher for all eight grades that floats from classroom to classroom to teach the NCLB standards. Bush never funded the thing from the start, and rolled it farther back when the war started.

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Hip-Hop QOTW:

"Yeah, where I'ma start it at, look I'ma part of that
Downtown Philly where it's realer than a heart attack
It wasn't really that ill until the start of crack
Now it's a body caught every night on the Almanac"

"Game Theory"
The Roots

Quote (Gears @ 11th October 2004 11:54)

According to factchecker.com, when Bush was a private owner, he received $84 from a timber company, which technically would have qualified him as a "small business owner." Which is why Kerry brought it up to refute Bush's claims that his tax break would harm small businesses.

Could you explain this a little further? I'm confused by it.

Quote

Like in the environment part, I can't believe they got through the entire thing without ONCE mentioning the Alaska wildlife refuge. For Kerry to let Bush get away with that was awful.

No kidding. It would have been nice for Bush to just come out and answer "No, I'm not an environmentalist, I value other issues more."

Quote

I agree with Ancient that NCLB shouldn't exist, but if it is going to exist (which is unfortunately inevitible)

Why is it inevitable? Cause both candidates suck?

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

I tend to go into Presidential debates with the knowledge that it's always easy to attack the incumbent, seeing as his opponent hasn't been running the country for four years and isn't in the position to make exploitable errors. Taking this into consideration, I'd say Bush won this one, but not by a whole lot. There were mistakes on the parts of both, as well as a strong showing in terms of presentation.

Those who know my political leanings understand that I'm as moderate as moderate gets, and as it stands I probably wouldn't vote for either of them, as I'm conventionally opposed to Bush and ethically opposed to Kerry. But right now I have to say that Bush looks a little cleaner coming out of this one, particularly considering the difficulty of his situation.

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"I always have a quotation for everything - it saves original thinking."
~Dorothy L. Sayers

"The truly remarkable thing about television is that it allows several million people to laugh at the same joke and still feel lonely."
~T.S. Eliot

"Defeat is not defeat unless accepted as reality - in your own mind!"
~ Bruce Lee

Bush started off slow but was able to finish strong against Kerry. Again Kerry seemed to insult Bush and his administration more then getting his point across. I give the slight edge to Bush, but again it was very close.

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War is for the participants a test of character; it makes bad men worse and good men better. - Joshua Chamberlain

U sir R a n00b >:-( - Cactuar

Quote (io_rage @ 10th October 2004 11:17)

Quote (Tidu-who @ 9th October 2004 13:53)

Quote (io_rage @ 9th October 2004 11:28)

Also, he said no less than 5 times that "we are a country at war".  Didn't he declare the war officially over like a year ago?

He declared the War in Iraq over. The "War on Terror" is still as healthy as ever.

Ok, then we're "at war" with a feeling? Because that's what terror is. It's one thing to say that we are actively hunting terrorists, or even to say that we are in a state of emergency if it is truly as dire as some people believe it is, but you can't call us a country at war if our enemy is intangible. Even a war on terrorism, which I've heard it reffered to as, is still war on an abstract concept, not an enemy. Whatever you call it, we aren't at war. We're in a blood hunt. Which is fine, and I would even agree that it's necessary for homeland security, but address it correctly. Calling it a war either shows that you don't know what a real war is or that you're making this way more of a propaganda thing then it needs to be. I sort of suspect both.

Edit

I just looked this over, and it may seem I was ranting at you, Tidu-who. I wasn't. I was ranting at Bush.

I can't tell if you're just being funny or taking that seriously. I think everyone knows what a "War on Terror" means.

Kerry did very well, as he did in the last I'll admit, but Bush won this one. He did much better, his stuttering was overwhelming in the last one.
He brouth up good points, as in not reinstating the draft, healthcare plans, yaddi yah. The usual political promises came from both sides, and its hard to find a whole lot of promise from either, as with any candidates.

I don't have much else to say that hasn't already been said, so I'm finished here.

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I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...