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Today, I went to meet my girlfriend at her school. I came abit early, forgetting that she stayed after for Computer Club. I occasionally sit in on it, even though I have no idea whats going on. Any way, I was talking to her and a friend of ours. Some other people were there, but these two guys were talking about some ultra violent game, with "realistic gore phyisics" and how bloody the thing was. It was kinda disgusting really. I just tried to ignore them because they weren't talking to me and I believe in free speech and such, plus the teacher didn't seem to mind. My girlfriend, Amber, and I were talking to a friend of ours about a bake sale. See, Amber's grandmother gave her a recipy( spelling?) for "Better Than Sex" brownies. A mentioned a few things my mother said about the name.
-Hell, if brownies are better, they an't doing it right
and
-If done right, ain't nothing better than sex.

Then the two guys talking about the game said that was inapropriate for school, and if we continued, he would go and get a dean. And, no, he wasn't being ironic, sarcastic, or facicious(Spelling, anyone)

Pardony my language, but when the Hell did sex become worse than violance.


I could understand if I was talking about rape of pedifilia, but..

Can someone please explain this to me.

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Love and Peace- Vash, the Stampede

If Life kicks you long enough, eventually he'll get tired and walk away- Drew Carry

Sex Obviously is worse than violence. I have a Hard Core Christian Pal that owns more Gore than A Sadist. But he is Moraly opposed to sex. I dunno i think that merits something. Also People don;t seem to be as opposed to the passion as they are I Dream of Jenna !

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

I think it's always been that way. We're so exposed to violence a lot of people don't give it a second thought when they see it but sex is different. You don't see real sex unless you make an effort to look for it yourself, and it's not something most people talk about. That's why it seems somewhat of a shock when phrases like "better than sex" are thrown around. I'm sure society is headed towards a high level of acceptance for sex talk but we're not there yet thank God.

"Dude I saw this awesome game where you kill people and their heads explode with blood flying everywhere. Man it's so bada**!"

"Ohh I had the best sex ever with my man last night... we did this and that etc..."

Which one is more shocking? Heh, it seems obvious to me.

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FFXI (Siren server)
Tauu the Windurstian Tarutaru!
White Mage & Paladin

I'm a Christian and I'm not opposed to sex. Some people need to get their facts straight. Don't worry about it. I'm sure the Dean will tell them to get over it.

Well, it depends where you are.

For some reason, Americans have a MUCH higher taboo on sex than do other countries, like Sweden and France. Maybe because the people who immigrated here were primarily Puritan, but whatever the reason, that contributes to it.

Also, there are a few different types of violence. Some philosopher (I forget who) lumped it into three groups as it occurs in the media: ritualistic, symoblic, and hyper-real. Video games are ritualistic, as well as most movies, such as James Bond, Lethal Weapon, Die Hard, etc. This ritualistic violence is well accepted by society; it is mindless and entertaining to most. When people say we are desensitized to violence, I personally believe that they are talking about ritualistic violence.

Symbolic violence doesn't really come into play here. It is a category that deals with the consequences of violence and why it is.

Now, hyper-real violence is the important stuff. This is the violence that is in your face and REAL, a true representation of violence. Watch a movie like Schindler's List, Reservoir Dogs, Clockwork Orange, etc, and I guarantee: you will realize that you are NOT desensitized to violence. These movies will make you squirm and cover your eyes. Similarly, if you see someone being shot in real life, you will NOT think of it as a form of entertainment.

The problem with everyone claiming that people are desensitized to violence is that they don't make the distinction between the ritualistic and the hyper real. The distinction is huge.

Maybe that's why those two guys felt that way about their violent game and your conversation on sex. I know if I were in your position, I'd be annoyed as hell, too, but that's just their opinion, and opinions are cheap. Everyone has them.

Wow, this was a long spiel. Just my two cents.

Edit

Oh yes, recipe, facetious, and pedophilia. In case you wanted to know.
Ooh, thanks Tiddles.

Moderator Edit

You're not the only one. Noone seems to understand that you have to close tags after opening them. The button even has a * on it to help. The easiest way, though, is just to write the test out, then select it with the cursor, then press the EDIT button, and it should get surrounded by the right tags. Provided you use Mozilla or IE, that is. I know of no way to make it work with other browsers. -Tiddles

This post has been edited by Goobers on 12th April 2004 00:39

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Little miss Muffet, sat on her tuffet,
Eating her curds and...
WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

There's a line between mentioning sex, though, and going on about it in detail. For example, one of my cousins made Sex in a Pan cake one time (which, although very very delicious, was not better or equal to sex, for all those curious.) Her young boys were there, and to them all it was was a name.

However, if there had been a conversation to follow about positions, techniques, props, etc, that would have been entirely different. It would have started some imaginations going (not for her boys though, they're under 6), and probably would have caused a few people to feel uncomfortable.

So, yeah, I personally am more squirmish about people talking about gory details than mentioning sex. Even saying "well, I don't think it's actually better than sex" isn't really saying anything about sex. It's just stating the obvious, really.

Now, if it was called Better Than Mass Murder of Orcs... >_> Odd that the guys there thought the mention of one topic was worse than the gory details of another. It's probably a person to person thing, some people would rather it one way, others the other way. Or the "I don't want details of either" route.

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

I remember thinking about this awhile back and coming to this conclusion (however Da Goob prolly put in the best description I've heard so far):

I think of it in terms of control. Violence can be perpetrated by a human being, but it can also be an act of God. An earthquake can collapse a roof over your head, a construction accident can have a pipe run ya through etc. These things are gory, messy, nasty and completely out of your hands. If your a passerby, you're gonna see it whether you like to or not, you have to accept it. Sex however is typically, a voluntary(sp?) act. It can be censored for that reason.

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Arts

Farts

Twarts

It always seemed strange to me that a woman's bare chest is considered a more serious and potentially disturbing image than the image of a human being blasting the life out of another human being with a machine gun. Having no sociological training myself, I can only assume that it's a matter of perceptions and biology. Simply, children can't engage in sexual activity, it's a solely adult form of behavior. Violence, on the other hand, can be found on pretty much any elementary school playground in the country.

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Sabin: ... to Mom... and to Figaro.

"A true classic never goes out of style!"

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.... I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain..."

The sex and nudity taboo bugs the daylights out of me. Violence is a part of life, but I don't go around describing it in detail in public because I don't want to frighten anyone because it forefronts the death. Orc-slaying is meant for closed theaters or living rooms.

Sex is a great thing for both people involved so there's nothing bad about seeing it or nudity on TV unless you're very young because it's best to be eased into the concept. I consider it indecent to gab about sex in public because the only thing that that can accomplish is to make people jealous. If sex makes you happy, then there's no need to be a braggart. Some things are best when they're discreet.

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Get me off this Disciplinary Committee so I can play any FF except for FF8!!!

Sex vs Violence has nothing to do with it. Those guys were just being jerks.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

Okay, some of this post may insult some religious people. You have been warned (I'll spoiler it out, just in case)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

As to Sex vs. Violence / Religion (or should I just say "church")...
Point 1: Over the last 1100 years or so, Christians have made the great effort of getting more and more people to be Christians.
Usually, the people didn't want to leave their politheistic religions (and converting Jews and Muslims was virtually impossible).
When the talk of how nice God is didn't work, and information how well politically placed, a christian country is failed, then the Christians had to use plan KYAUYCTC.
Kick
Your
Ass
Until
You
Convert
To
Christianism.
And so they forced many Slavian nations to Christianism, forced it to Africa, the near East, and even forcibly converted some tribes of south-american Indians.
Not to mention the many repeated crusades...
So the church is not against violence (in the "right" cause, lately they're starting to say otherwise), since they used it for their profit for the few last centuries..

On the other hand, somewhere in the 10th/11th century the church brought in celibate for the priests. Why?
The wealth of the priest belonged to the priest. If he had no heirs, it went to the church.
What better way to make sure the priests don't have heirs than saying: "You're not allowed to have sex."? (Nevertheless, a few POPES, archbishops, and cardinals, did have children)
And every wealth with no heir went divided between the ruler and church.
So church became anti-sex, because it was a profit to them.

Centuries passed, people forgot why they were against some things (like sex) and why they were less against other things (like violence), but they kept on being against, or less against, them.

And the people of the USA, being highly religious, have sex as much more of a taboo than violence.

That's one of my theories. I excuse anybody whom I insulted with it.

As to my second theory...:

Those two guys were not only jerks, I believe they were sexually impared (not impotent, I mean a state of mind) - all freaked out, y'get me?
Such people DO exist, in every country, race, age, gender and culinary preference. Such people have no idea, or have the wrong idea of what sex is. They think it immoral, depravating, filthy, ugly, disgusting and downright evil just because they don't understand it and they usually DON'T WANT to understand it because it's immoral, depravating, etc. etc....
For such people, violent images and even activity may be an outlet for sexual excitement (yes, they even may ejaculate while playing Q3, just because the blasted s'm'one away with a launcher) and that's why some (not all) of them will be all excited about watching a corpse being apart with a chainsaw and think it the coolest thing to do, but at the very mention of sex they will be at least irritated.


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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Frankly, I think you're seriously misinformed on a number of points. I'll make a more detailed post later, but briefly:

- The majority of barbarian tribes in Europe willingly converted to Christianity because their kings recognized that certain tenants of the new religion were useful in justifying their right to rule,

- Read about Prester John before making comments on the arrival of Christianity in Africa,

- You've got the roots of celibacy all wrong, it's place in the church can be traced well before the 10th century. The most important writings on the subject come from St. Augustine who argued against sex in the clergy on the grounds that priests should not give way to their lustful passions.

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Sabin: ... to Mom... and to Figaro.

"A true classic never goes out of style!"

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.... I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain..."

SMad, I don't know where you get your information from, but you may want to re-evaluate your sources.
1) Violent means of conversions were much more rare than peaceful means. The violent ones used religion as a secondary reason/rally point.
2) Jews were many of the first to convert. Many Muslims converted a while after it popped up.
3) The Catholic and the Orthodox churches split for several reasons. One of the reasons was the question of whether or not clergy could marry. The Orthodox church said it was okay, but the Catholic church said no, because they held the idea that a clergyman's entire life should be devoted to God, and the seeking of and keeping a wife would take from that.
4) Are you using past corruptions and hypocricies of one denomination to label all members of a religion?
5) The US religious? Good one.
6) You excuse me? Mis-informed and condescending are you?

I still hold to my first post. I've had similar situations several times before, and they were just wanting to start a fight. Next time, call them out on it.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

enough enough yall we arent children....

well i just thinks its bull%$ that in today's society its ok to see some guys head pop on a movie screen but its not alright to see someone's butt or whatnot. I just think that they a little overboard with the whole thing about sex being evil.

ok think about this logicaly when i spell it out

violence & killing = pg-13

"love" or SEX = R

so our children can see people heads pop but they cant see how they were made? just really think about it.... really hard.....

i just think its stupid what our everything come to.

And the church did use violence to convert but not to the degree where it was alright to kill people to convert. it was sort of behind the curtain sort of thing. But they did kill thousands upon thousand of heretics, pagans, muslims you name it, in the name of the church. Of course it wasnt the church itself it was an individual that said he represented the church. Like a knight in the Crusades. And i agree with whoever said that the slavic people accepted orthodox cause they didnt mind it.... plus The byzantine empire (the stronghold for orthodox religion) was a great ally of the slavic people.

well i might be wrong on some of those points but i still think its stupid with the pg-13 to R ratio...

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"Isn't ramza a girls name?" -me

i havent changed my avatar or anything in a long time! time for a change yall!

I think that those guys were being a pair of bastards. I think therefore that all Christian-related arguemtntative material, and otherwise afore mentioned subjects not truely related to this are moot.

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At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid.
Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

wow, those kids need a life, how old were they?, like 2?

Moderator Edit

You're much better, you black kettle you. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 14th April 2004 20:50

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THE LIZARDSSS SHALL EATSSS YOU

I don't know about violence being more Ok than sex. Think about it - violence is in specific movies, video games, and cartoons. Sex is everywhere. A good number of commercials, all sitcoms (now), movies (even ones that are centered around violence), music, even in kids' movies and songs that they choose for that compilation CD meant for kids (Kids Pop or something). In Comedy movies, you get sex, in Action movies you get violence AND sex.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

I havent been in school since (counting college) 1999, but I woulda told those two guys to piss off then, and I'd tell anyone to piss off now.

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look into my eyes
tell me what you see
someone real?
this is real!
what you wish to be!

...O P E N Y O U R E Y E S........
...open your eyes, open your eyes....

hey i may have no life, but i aint gonna gripe about my virginity

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THE LIZARDSSS SHALL EATSSS YOU

Sex is very taboo with me but I didn't see anything wrong with what you said. You weren't describing it.

Hard to believe with my quote I know but I just want everyone to understand how much I like Suikoden III.

This post has been edited by Elena1999 on 24th April 2004 08:05

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Elena Indurain

Currently Playing: Suikoden II

ok...I talk about Sex on the Beach incense all the time cus they are my fav. and no one ever says anything...there are people at my old school that used to smoke pot behind the gym at lunch...I mean come on...I think that those guys just need to grow up, I mean honestly...it's not like you made a sexual comment toward someone...you were just talking about brownies, also in our mall we have a type of burning lamp oil called pu$#y and that is may fav. lamp oil...no one complains about that stuff sitting there on the shelf in a public store!!!!! What those guys were complaining about had nothing to do with sex...they areprobably just those kind of people that are all "oh well we are goody 2 shoes and you can't swear or say words like sex cus that's bad...shame on you"...you did say they would get the Dean so I would assume that you were at a college...you know with ADULTS!!!!

This post has been edited by Sephiroth on 21st May 2004 04:41

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

People just need to learn how to be more mature about it. They also ought to not be barred from knowledge fo sex and told it is something sinful thorughout their youth. Now, I do not think people should be having sex at young ages, what I'm saying is, if people just understood it better, and people were more forthcoming about it, it wouldn't be so taboo, and because of this, people might not abuse it so much. I knew about sex by the time I was five, didn't actually realize its significance until I was around 9, didn't actually consider it in relevance to msyelf until I was around 12. That, and I have no shame about myself, so sex is never an awkward topic for me.

On the other hand, sex is utterly rampant among me and my friends as a topic. Maybe its cuz we're still in our early twenties, but from High School up to now, you almost couldn't enter a single conversation without sex being mentioned, or people flirting with each other. And I find it just gets worse and worse over the years. I can't even hang out with my friends, any of them, without some kind of flirtation going on, but that's not necesarily a bad thing; sure it gets tiresome after a while, but none of us are actually awkward about it.

This being said, most of the people I've known are really open about their sexuality, and, considering its extreme use in society, conversation, and advertising, I still find it hard to believe there are people out their who seriously think of sex as something to be avoided like the plague.

Sure, my friends and I may hit on each other all while we're hanging out, but its all in good fun, and its not like any of us are actually going to have sex with one another. (well, maybe not...)

Either way, again, I think if people did not make such a huge deal about censoring it (land of free it may be, but Americans are down right paranoid about everything), and people were taught how to be mature about it early on, it wouldn't be such a huge mess.

I have no idea if that contributes to the topic or not, but there's my nickle.

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And behold, I saw a Pale Gaming System, and the name of he who rode it was Squaresoft, and Enix followed him.

I don't get why this turned to Religion bashing and defending.

Alright, so here's my little nugget of opinion.

Really, more importantly than religion and such, you should consider how children are raised, especially today. Sex and Violence are both virtually everywhere, but if you think about it, Sex doesn't get half the exposure, but double the publicity. Parents will always tell you that sex is dirty and shouldn't be spoken about. They themselves are sometimes uncomfortable talking about it, in presence of children or not. Some people get off easy, where parents have no problems with the topic of sex, and they grow up with no taught issues with the subject. If your parents drill it into your head that it's nasty and dirty, well of course you're going to be offended when you hear it in public.

Same thing with Violence, I mean, if you had problem with their violence talk ,I4V, don't you think they are entitled to have a problem with sexually explicit expressions? Sex may be nothing to you, but it's a big issue to some people, epsecially those with a lack of it.

It's not entirely the fault of any religion, it's just a belief that sometimes may get carried away. Not all christian/catholics are against sex and such, and a lot of them don't exactly condone violence either. If you really want to get technical, most of the most common religions consider sex taboo, and violence as barbaric.


So let those guys talk about their violence, and go on with your better than sex brownies. ( Send some my way?) If they want to be jerks about it though, let them, there isn't really much they can do, or much trouble for you to get in.

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Okay, but there was a goat!

I really don's see sex as a taboo. And can it really be that bad? Sure, there are some extremem cases, but wasn't Kubrick an American? He created the movie "Eyes Wide Shut". I don't know if anybody ever saw that movie, but it was the "sexual" version of the "Passion of the Christ": there's too much violence in the Passion for my tastes while not terrible upsetting, and with Eyes Wide Shut being, well, semi-pornography (not sure if I should let that "semi" stay there), it has too much explicit sex without being overly upsetting (to me). Still both very good movies, but that's besides the point and off topic

What I mean: When a movie like that can be broadly appreciated, can it really be that bad?

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Well, I have a hypothesis. It may be completely untested and possibly invalid, but I'll state it anyway.

I've been a computer science major for much, much too long now. I was in the computer club myself once (hell, I believe I was even one of the officers for a year or so back there). Try to see the incident in context: the people who gave you crap were, to spare us all from mincing words, among the uber-geeks of the entire school. Let me also say that of the two schools I've attended, the male:female ratio within that major is contempibly, distressingly low. Combine that with the not-atypical computer science major behaviour of preferring the virtual/online world to the real world, and you get someone that probably has more experience (or at least as much experience) taming pygmy marmosets as dealing with women. Such people as I have described prefer to understand everything, to the point where something they do not understand may even annoy them. Such things as women and sex. I imagine there's a good dose of old-fashioned jealousy in the mix as well. I know it all sounds like so much stereotyping, but remember, people: stereotypes do not arise from nothing. They do have to come from somewhere.

I try to be a pretty nonconfrontational guy, and I firmly believe in the right to free speech, to the point of believing it impolite to make unwarranted attacks on what others say. So I would personally not be likely to confront anyone, whether it's last night's party and the twenty women (or men, if it is a lady) they banged, or someone keen on Jebus pontificating moralizing diatribe to the masses (or just friends). But I think I can understand where these guys were coming from. I'd just ignore them, in future occasions. If these people are as I believe they probably are, then they are all talk and no action... and would much prefer a game of Quake to a trip to the dean's office in the end.

Sheesh, another long one... I guess this is why I don't post much.

One last thing: yes, Stanley Kubrick is an unparalleled genius. You owe it to yourself to see at least A Clockwork Orange or Dr. Strangelove once before you die!


This post has been edited by xanadu33 on 22nd May 2004 01:42

ok i don't mean to return back to the religion, but, sex being taboo comes from our puritanical beginnings, ie mayflower, pligrims all that crap... (at least in the USA)

yet why several hundred years later we still cling to the belief of, excuse my crudeness, 'better slayed than laid' is beyond me. Still today in movies the rating system is based off this saying. if you would like any proof of this watch any of the countless action movies hollywood produces each year

on a rather interesting note, a kick to the head in the movies is an automatic R rating, thats why the matrix was rated R

Edit

actually Sephiroth i was refering to the first matrix

This post has been edited by AflyingWeasel on 5th June 2004 22:22

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And when the band you're in starts playing different tunes,
i'll see you on the dark side of the moon.... - Pink Floyd

Eagle may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines

Quote (AflyingWeasel @ 21st May 2004 23:36)

on a rather interesting note, a kick to the head in the movies is an automatic R rating, thats why the matrix was rated R

The second one was Rated R because of a sex scene, and for the fact that when everyone gathered in Zion for the speach that Morpheus gave you'll notice in one scene that there is a girl with a very light shirt on which you can clearly see everything through the shirt.
As for the topic, like I said, I still don't see why it's that big of a deal...obviously everyone in the room was an adult so it's not like the two that gave him a hard time about the "better than sex brownies" should be so imature to go tell the Dean because someone said the word sex. IMO it's as simple as this... the two just need to grow up and except the fact that sex is part of nature. I doubt they went to get the principal in school when the teacher started to teach them about human reproduction, and hell, it's not like most high schools don't have a sex-ed program where they teach teenagers to put a condom on a banana... so I still stand by my opinion when I say that the two giving you a hard time are just being childish 5 year olds and need to grow up or hae the S%$# beat out of them until they learn a lesson in life.

This post has been edited by Sephiroth on 5th June 2004 16:54

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles