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Paladin Cecil makes the girls swoon with his bishonen good looks. Dark Knight Cecil scares Baronian children.

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kame, tortue, tortuga, schildkröte, tartaruga, turtle

"Arthur Dent?"
"Yes."
"Arthur Philip Dent?"
"Yes."
"You're a total knee biter."

My favorite would have to be "The Paladin"
               <---   (obviously)
His stats are very much differant for the better.

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Teach me, my God and King,
In all things thee to see;
And what I do in any thing
To do it as for thee...

                   -Herbert, George-

i prefer him as a pladain because of his strength and magic, but as a dark knight he just looked sweet   I think they should make a prelouge to cecil to show how he came to be what he was.  even tho its pretty much explained, it would be cool to play the game out with him froma  child up to were he becomes the dark knight and leader of the red wings

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*!*CAUTION*!* *!*Suicide may be hazardous to your health*!*

Althoght Paladin is statsticly superior...I like the Dark Knight, it's just more interesting...how it's more interesting is because he's a good man in a bad job, before his redemdtion...It's not a hero you'd expect...An 'evil dark knight' saving the world?  I would guess it...

not just the game's best character, but one of the best video game characters in history, Cecil the dark knight

rangers had a good point up there about cecil being kind of a weiner, but i still think he was cooler as a dark knight than the paladin.

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You watch the world exploding every single night
Dancing in the sun, a newborn in the light
Say goodbye to gravity and say goodbye to death
Hello to eternity and live for every breath

Your time will come...

It was a BLOODY HELL HARD choice: I LOVE the Dark Wave and his Dark Knight armor looks FREAKING COOL, but the Paldin's Suit looks EVEN BETTER (to me),  and he was finally able to BEAT CRAP OUT of undead, and I have a certain weakness for green-eyed people, no matter the gender. I finally voted Paladin.
You know...
...
...
...
...
...
...he should have been Dragoon.

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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Paladin

When voting, I took into account:
+Paladin is the surpassing redemption from the Dark Knight.
+Unarmed Lv.99 P beats an Unarmed Lv.99 DK Everyday
+Counting Weapon/Armor power was unfair
+Maximum Growth Potential
+With a P, to avoid being killed by being outnumbered 8:1, you do not have to hurt yourself to bring them down (D.Wave)
+Capes are cool, Helmets are lame, and Blue is Dark?

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

I liked him as a Paladin because of his new found cure magic and his super HP (600 at lvl 1?). And the new attire suited him better than the dark smelly knigt armour.

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Any and all who opose the Excalibur will be smited

im a fan of the paladin. mainly just cuz i think he looks cooler. and plus...he starts with a cloth euipped. good stuff, good stuff!

Moderator Edit

Merged from separate topic. -Tiddles

This post has been edited by Tiddles on 15th November 2003 16:20

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once you can accept yourself, you will never be alone

I am one of those people who actually enjoyed playing Cecil more when he was a Dark Knight. I guess I'm always voting for the under dog. I enjoyed equipping him with dark armor. I also saw that the game was actually more challenging while he was a Dark Knight.

This post has been edited by edge murasame on 15th November 2003 16:35

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I will be the mustard of your doom!

Obviously, he was fit to be a paladin. From the getgo, he has doubts about killing people and is worried about doing the right thing. That doesn't sound like a Dark Knight to me. He should be gleefully swinging his sword into those Mysidian mages, laughing happily while the bombs burn down Mist, and stepping on Chocobo eggs or something. Well, that's my impression of a Dark Knight. Cecil's definitely one of those nice guys that will always feel bad about stepping on your foot. Definitely paladin.

Also, I was always under the impression that Level 99 Dark Knight was stronger than Level 99 Paladin. I guess I was wrong.

HP: Paladin (700 at lv 1) > Dark Knight (200 at lv 10)
attack, defense, and armor: Paladin > Dark Knight
magic: Paladin > Dark Knight because DK doesn't know magic, but Paladin has weak white magic (best used for spells like Heal that don't account for magic power, but can also act as a last resource/backup)
Helping other party members: P>DK because Paladin can cover weak allies (you don't always have to look at the HP stats so often, and allows some extra time to heal characters)
weapons: P>DK because (1) P weapons are much more powerful than DK weapons, (2) DK weapons can't beat zombies and other "evil" enemies, (3) given a P sword and a DK sword of equal power, P sword would be more effective in battle on average because sacred power is much less often an enemy defense than is darkness (many undeads defend against darkness but all are weak to sacred, while the only enemy that's weak to darkness is Octomamm)
Morality: P>DK
fits Cecil: P>DK
better status portrait: P>DK
better battle sprite: P>DK
better map sprite: DK>P (wow! finally!)

Needless to say, I voted for Cecil the Paladin. In fact, the "Harvey" part of my screen name here is from Cecil Harvey, referencing to Paladin state, or his transition (an amazing idea, even though it is watered down when put into a game) from Dark Knight to Paladin. Plus, the title "Crystal Paladin" is just cool.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

I liked his dark ability as a dark knight which was kind of cool
*except against dark enemies
but the paladin is cooler looker, has better stats so i voted for paladin

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"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"

Eh, i feel like doing a few comparisons.

Paladin Lv.1 (unequipped/starting level, 600HP)
Strength: 10
Agility: 13
Vitality: 10
Wisdom: 5
Will: 8

Dark Knight Lv.10 (equipped, but none of the weapons effect base stats/starting level, 200HP)
Strength: 13
Agility: 10
Vitality: 11
Wisdom: 6
Will: 3

Moving on 10 (well, 9 for the Pal to make him lv.10) levels, where you most commonly hear that "Level 1 Paladin has better stats then DK, therefore DK is stupid".

Paladin Lv.10 (all Paladin equipment gives him +15 Wil, 766HP)
Strength: 13
Agility: 15
Vitality: 13
Wisdom: 9
Will: 28

Dark Knight Lv.20 (same equip as before, 410HP)
Strength: 21
Agility: 16
Vitality: 16
Wisdom: 9
Will: 1

I hear the crowds going "boooo! he only has 1 Wil!! he sux0rz!!" well, im afraid all who think that are.. eh.. idiotic? lol, the thing is.. he is a Dark Knight, he doesnt use Magic (to be more specific, White Magic, which is what the Wil stat is there for) so its kinda, erm, irrelevant. Moving on, though, both the DK and Pal at Lv.20.


Paladin Lv.20 (same equip, +15 Will, 1033HP)
Strength: 20
Agility: 16
Vitality: 20
Wisdom: 12
Will: 32

Dark Knight Lv.20 (same equip as before, 410HP)
Strength: 21
Agility: 16
Vitality: 16
Wisdom: 9
Will: 1

Same as before, heh, Will is totally irrelevant for the DK. but not so for the Paladin, although he never really gets an overly-high Will, he still uses White Magic (basics though) and is a good backup for when you wanna save a bit of Rosa's MP. But thats about all its good for IMO.. But, getting away from that.. you see here that the DK is infact 1 point Stronger in Strength, but has equal Agility and slightly less Wisdom (Black Magic power) so, the DK isnt all *that* bad in the long run.. heh, after level 70

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

you can push the DK's agility higher then the Paladin can ever get his

so, for the perfectionist in everyone, you can affectively give the DK better Level 99 stats then the Paladin in the long run anyway.. but, its kinda a waste a time

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

since you dont use the DK after Mt.Ordeals anyway, bah

so, eh. Depends on what you like.

GO DARK KNIGHT!! GO YOU GOOD THING!! (besides, his portrait looked much more evil then the girly Tiara-wearing Paladin's)

*cough*

Quote (Dawezy @ 25th November 2003 22:53)

Will is totally irrelevant for the DK.

Wisdom and Will both affect Magic Defense.

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the DK isnt all *that* bad in the long run.. heh, after level 70

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

you can push the DK's agility higher then the Paladin can ever get his

Not true. You can theoretically get both of them to 99 Agility

Since you want to bring high levels into account, and I assume you know stats can be customized above Lv70:
Dark Knight Lv70
Str: 61
Agil: 41
Vit: 41
Wis: 24
Will: 1

Paladin Lv70
Str: 99
Agil: 41
Vit: 85
Wis: 36
Will: 68

I normally don't like to bring weapons into account, but the strongest Dark Sword is weaker than the weakest Light Sword.

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besides, his portrait looked much more evil then the girly Tiara-wearing Paladin's)

The Dark Knight is supposed to look evil. Shedding his darkness is the point of the story.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

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Wisdom and Will both affect Magic Defense.

Im aware of that, but i was pointing out that because the DK doesnt use magic, the Will is technically irrelevant, as alot of people in the past have pointed out to me about his low Will and branding him "useless because of his low magical stats" heh.

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Dark Knight Lv.70
Str: 61
Agil: 41
Vit: 41
Wis: 24
Will: 1

*cough*Wis: 21*cough*

Ive got a huge list of stats logged down, so i'll enlighten you DK Cecil can have over (it doesnt display more then 99 i know, but it keeps tallying the numbers up btw) 99 in his Agi, quite easily. By only giving him +2 Strength, Agility, Vitality per level between 71 to 99, will yield these results; (natural Level 70 stats, no weapons currently equipped)

Dark Knight Level 70
61 + 58 = 119 / 124
41 + 58 = 99 / 104
41 + 58 = 99 / 104
21 + 0 = 21 / 26
1 + 0 = 1 / 1

The right coloumn indicates the increase due to the Death Sword, which gives +5 Str,Agi,Vit,Wis and -5 Will.. thus, more then 99.. the Paladin, too, can get 99 Agility naturally.. by following the same levelup rule as the DK, but with Will added to the plan.(natural Level 70 stats btw, no weapons equipped)

Paladin Level 70 [NATURAL]
85 + 58 = 143
41 + 58 = 99
70 + 58 = 128
36 + 0 = 36
41 + 58 = 99

Natural stats bare in mind, he could throw on the Adamant Armour (+15 all) and the Ragnarok (+15 Str,Vit,Wil) to look like this..

Paladin Level 70, showing bonuses and Level 99 additions
85 + 58 = 143 + 30 = 173
41 + 58 = 99 + 15 = 114
70 + 58 = 128 + 30 = 158
36 + 0 = 36 + 15 = 51
41 + 58 = 99 + 30 = 129

Heh, its impressive i must say.. but, its more or less a personal issue here.. i dont so much as hate Cecil for becoming a "Holy" Paladin.. its the fact that he basically didnt have a choice in the matter, he just had to throw away all his Darkknighthood just so he could be some gay looking Holy Paladin, heh. The stats may be superior, but the DK has style.. *cough* ok, moving on.

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I normally don't like to bring weapons into account, but the strongest Dark Sword is weaker than the weakest Light Sword.

Again, im aware of the attack power difference.

Death Sword: 31
Legend Sword: 40

But the DS 0wns the LS as far as abilities go.

DS: +5 Str, Agi, Vit, Wis -5 Will, Random chance of DEATH on target, Shadow Elemental (damages all kinds of monsters, besides Undead)
LS: +3 Will, Holy Elemental (higher damage to Undead)

I just dislike anything that is solely "Holy" based.. heh.

EDIT: labeled for GMH, lol

This post has been edited by Dawezy on 27th November 2003 05:26

Could you please label your stats, Dawezy? I'm a bit confused as to which number is what stat.

Edit: Scratch that; I know what is what. But where did you get the original stats (to which you added/subtracted 5, 15, 15, or whatever)?

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 27th November 2003 05:15

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

I'm glad to see we have such in-depth statistical analysis available for video game characters at levels that players are unlikely to even see.

As far as I'm concerned, characters at the beginning of an RPG are weaker than characters at the end of an RPG.
Since the Dark Knight is only existant at the beginning of the game, of course it's going to be weaker than the Paladin, with which you end the game.

-Phoenix

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But where did you get the original stats (to which you added/subtracted 5, 15, 15, or whatever)

Hours and hours of stat logging will do that to you .. and, i got it all logged down if you wanna check it out for yourself (character stats and stuff.) http://dawezy.squareultima.com/ff4/stattrackerFF4_Main.htm i'll admit i only got the main few characters i was focusing on.. but i am slowly (but surely) getting all of their stats. Im a stat junkie if you didnt already notice.

Quote (Dawezy @ 26th November 2003 23:57)

Im aware of that, but i was pointing out that because the DK doesnt use magic, the Will is technically irrelevant, as alot of people in the past have pointed out to me about his low Will and branding him "useless because of his low magical stats" heh.

What I said was Magic Defense. If they both were hit with the same, say, Bolt 3 spell, then the Paladin wouldn't be as damaged by it.

Quote (Dawezy @ 26th November 2003 23:57)

Ive got a huge list of stats logged down, so i'll enlighten you DK Cecil can have over (it doesnt display more then 99 i know, but it keeps tallying the numbers up btw) 99 in his Agi, quite easily. By only giving him +2 Strength, Agility, Vitality per level between 71 to 99, will yield these results; (natural Level 70 stats, no weapons currently equipped)

Dark Knight Level 70
61 + 58 = 119 / 124
41 + 58 = 99 / 104
41 + 58 = 99 / 104
21 + 0 = 21 / 26
1 + 0 = 1 / 1

The right coloumn indicates the increase due to the Death Sword, which gives +5 Str,Agi,Vit,Wis and -5 Will.. thus, more then 99.. the Paladin, too, can get 99 Agility naturally.. by following the same levelup rule as the DK, but with Will added to the plan.(natural Level 70 stats btw, no weapons equipped)

Paladin Level 70 [NATURAL]
85 + 58 = 143
41 + 58 = 99
70 + 58 = 128
36 + 0 = 36
41 + 58 = 99

Natural stats bare in mind, he could throw on the Adamant Armour (+15 all) and the Ragnarok (+15 Str,Vit,Wil) to look like this..

Paladin Level 70, showing bonuses and Level 99 additions
85 + 58 = 143 + 30 = 173
41 + 58 = 99 + 15 = 114
70 + 58 = 128 + 30 = 158
36 + 0 = 36 + 15 = 51
41 + 58 = 99 + 30 = 129

You were saying one of the reasons the Dark Knight was better than a Paladin was because DK's Agility can go higher on him. Not true, and you proved it for me.

And no, their stats cannot go above 99, whether you claim them to be hidden or not.

Quote (Dawezy @ 26th November 2003 23:57)

But the DS 0wns the LS as far as abilities go.

DS: +5 Str, Agi, Vit, Wis -5 Will, Random chance of DEATH on target, Shadow Elemental (damages all kinds of monsters, besides Undead)
LS: +3 Will, Holy Elemental (higher damage to Undead)

I just dislike anything that is solely "Holy" based.. heh.

Shadow can damage any enemy type except one. Holy can damage any enemy type.
No enemy type is weak against Shadow. One enemy type is weak against Holy.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

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You were saying one of the reasons the Dark Knight was better than a Paladin was because DK's Agility can go higher on him. Not true, and you proved it for me.

By leveling the DK/Paladin with the excat same sequence, they will be equal in Agility, yes i proved that... but if you make the Paladin level up a different path (say, +1 All for 29 levels) and the DK takes the path i showed above.. then, the DK has superior Agility to him even without his Death Sword to boost stats, the Paladin would need to equip both his Ragnarok and Adamant Armour to gain more Agility then the DK.

Quote

And no, their stats cannot go above 99, whether you claim them to be hidden or not.

Incorrect ive done test upon test upon test.. with Rydia's stats at 99 (Level 86 btw), her Flare did a certain amount of damage (around 6000 or so), i equipped the Triangle Tiara and Black Robe (total +15 Wisdom) and her damage skyrocketed (dealt 9999 on numerous occasions).. so, what does that tell you? hmm? *if* the stats were designed to Max Out at 99, their damage wouldnt increase by any means.. hmm.. ofcourse it keeps on counting.

A few things do max out though. And they would be;

Attack (Max: 255) Defense (Max: 255) Magic Defense (Max: 255) HP (Max: 9999) MP (Max: 999).. im yet to see the Accuracy, Evade, Magic Def% max out past 99% though.

Quote

Shadow can damage any enemy type except one. Holy can damage any enemy type.
No enemy type is weak against Shadow. One enemy type is weak against Holy.

True, but i wasnt i trying to focus on elemental weaknesses. I was pointing out that the Death Sword has more to it, then the Legend Sword has to it. (ie, more stat boostings) so its better in the long run (besides against the Undead) in some regards, but the Attack Power kinda makes you wanna swap it for something else anyway.

Dark Knights rule

Quote (Dawezy @ 28th November 2003 06:14)

By leveling the DK/Paladin with the excat same sequence, they will be equal in Agility, yes i proved that... but if you make the Paladin level up a different path (say, +1 All for 29 levels) and the DK takes the path i showed above.. then, the DK has superior Agility to him even without his Death Sword to boost stats, the Paladin would need to equip both his Ragnarok and Adamant Armour to gain more Agility then the DK.

You said:

Quote (Dawezy @ 25th November 2003 22:53)

after level 70 you can push the DK's agility higher then the Paladin can ever get his

The only way this is true is if you purposefully make the DK's agility gain more. I could use your arguement method to say that the Paladin can push his strength farther than the DK ever could by getting the +2 Strength for the Paladin at every level up and a minus stats level up with the Dark Knight.

Quote (Dawezy @ 28th November 2003 06:14)

Incorrect ive done test upon test upon test.. with Rydia's stats at 99 (Level 86 btw), her Flare did a certain amount of damage (around 6000 or so), i equipped the Triangle Tiara and Black Robe (total +15 Wisdom) and her damage skyrocketed (dealt 9999 on numerous occasions).. so, what does that tell you? hmm? *if* the stats were designed to Max Out at 99, their damage wouldnt increase by any means.. hmm.. ofcourse it keeps on counting.

You're either lying or there was another factor involved (like casting the spell on different enemies). No matter what I equipped on Rydia, her Flare did the same damage every time (give or take single digits).
The stats don't go past 99, proven by the multipliers not changing once the influencing stat hits 99, no matter which level-up path you take. The only way to push them farther is through serious hacking.

Quote (Dawezy @ 28th November 2003 06:14)

True, but i wasnt i trying to focus on elemental weaknesses. I was pointing out that the Death Sword has more to it, then the Legend Sword has to it.

Quote (Dark Paladin @ 28th November 2003 05:15)

No enemy type is weak against Shadow. One enemy type is weak against Holy.

Quote (Dawezy @ 28th November 2003 06:14)

I was pointing out that the Death Sword has more to it, then the Legend Sword has to it. (ie, more stat boostings) so its better in the long run

The only way the Death Sword is better than the Legend sword is the small stat boost it gives, but that is to be expected.
I find a sword that is twice as effective against certain types of enemies to be more useful in the long run than a sword that is ineffective against a large number of enemies.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

Take it to PMs, lads.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

But this debate here IS relevant to the topic. I found out a lot about the DK's and Paladin's stats from here.

I would also like to point out (despite my having voted for Paladin) that to my knowledge there's ONE enemy that is weak to darkness--Octomamm. (That information comes from Ben Siron's FF2[us] handbook, so it might not be true for FF4j.)

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Fine, if someone else has something to add to the topic, add it here. But what I see is a lot of arguing about facts, not real information. Have it your way.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Heh, im not gonna bother anymore.. theres always *one* member at any msg board a visit and share my knowledge with, yet, they still throw it out the window and call it garbage.. DP, you dont relize ive done hours upon hours of tests with these things, i tell no lies. So, i got nothing else to say besides.

Dark Knight, huzzah!

EDIT:

Quote

would also like to point out (despite my having voted for Paladin) that to my knowledge there's ONE enemy that is weak to darkness--Octomamm. (That information comes from Ben Siron's FF2[us] handbook, so it might not be true for FF4j.)

Your right, thats the one boss/monster in FFIV (all versions) that has a set weakness to the Shadow/Darkness Element.. heh, its also part of the story, with Tellah ranting on about it and all.

This post has been edited by Dawezy on 29th November 2003 03:13

Quote (Dawezy @ 28th November 2003 19:14)

Heh, im not gonna bother anymore.. theres always *one* member at any msg board a visit and share my knowledge with, yet, they still throw it out the window and call it garbage.. DP, you dont relize ive done hours upon hours of tests with these things, i tell no lies. So, i got nothing else to say besides.

I've also been through, and you are also throwing my info out the window, so don't project upon me.

Quote (Dawezy @ 28th November 2003 19:14)

Quote

would also like to point out (despite my having voted for Paladin) that to my knowledge there's ONE enemy that is weak to darkness--Octomamm. (That information comes from Ben Siron's FF2[us] handbook, so it might not be true for FF4j.)

Your right, thats the one boss/monster in FFIV (all versions) that has a set weakness to the Shadow/Darkness Element.. heh, its also part of the story, with Tellah ranting on about it and all.

Are you sure? Because Cecil tends to do about the same damage against Octomamm as every other monster when I play.

This post has been edited by Dark Paladin on 29th November 2003 19:52

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

When I played FF2us, I actually noticed that Octomamm's weakness (although supposedly programmed to be lit and darkness) seemed to switch between lit and darkness, and on alternate turns, when I either did lots of damage with Cecil's attack or lots of damage with Tellah's Lit-1.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

An impressive display of facts from both parties, but I ended up siding with DK prior to reading the second page, so my vote was based on the class I liked more.

Int his game the paladin Cecil had numerous advantages over DK Cecil, if only because he should have been a Paladin from the get go but instead was a DK, which went against his character.

I believe that the DK and Paladin are on an equal basis when taken out of FF4 context, and that they had to make Paladin Cecil stronger, so that at level one he could be as strong as or close to his team mates which were around 10 or perhaps 20, it's been a while since I last played.

My point is, both knights are on an equal scale, one based on attack and another on defenses and helping allies, so really I believe that when discussing the two classes on Cecil and which one is your favorite will/should be based mostly on opinion, and not on statistics.

O yes, they had to have the weakest paladin sword stronger than the most advanced dark knight sword, perhaps there could be other swords in the world of FF4 that belong to the DK that would be just as strong as Cecil's avanced weapons, but he wouldn't bother picking them up for he was a paladin.

^ That is a stretch of the imagination though.

My vote goes to the Dark Knight Cecil.

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Those with no names know no bounds