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I swear terrorists are so stupid sometimes. Do they really think that killing innocent people in another powerful democratic nation is going to make everyone see things their way? I can only hope that this tragedy strengthens the world's commitment to wiping these ignorant fucks off the face of the planet.

This post has been edited by The Ancient on 7th July 2005 13:41

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

I can't believe this. I sure hope our British friends are okay.

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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

Do you really think they do it to make us see things their way? I think they know that we won't see things their way, and so they don't care about killing. But it's a much deeper issue than either of those POVs anyway.

I have yet to hear from my friend Angela, who works in South London at the company I work with daily. I'm sure she's okay, but I'm still more than a bit anxious about it.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

See everything their way? You mean to kill as many people as possible?

Well I think it's fair to say, the best form of defense in this case, is attack, so I agree these terrorists should all be hunted down no matter what. Nothing else could be as effective could it?

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'Let that be a lesson to all oppressive vegetable sellers.'

I hope this takes some of the heat off of Blaire's hide. His countrymen were starting to give him some serious flak about maintaining english presence in the middle east.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Quote (Hamedo @ 7th July 2005 10:59)

I hope this takes some of the heat off of Blaire's hide.  His countrymen were starting to give him some serious flak about maintaining english presence in the middle east.

Or maybe that presence is what got London attacked, eh?

Edit

I did hear from my friend Angela, finally, so all is well at least in terms of those I know near London.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 7th July 2005 15:22

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Quote (Hamedo @ 7th July 2005 15:59)

I hope this takes some of the heat off of Blaire's hide.  His countrymen were starting to give him some serious flak about maintaining english presence in the middle east.

His name is Tony Blair, and I am very thankful he leads this nation right now, I must say as an aside. And it's not an English presence, there is no actual English gvoernment. There is only a United Kingdom government. This was an act against the UK, not against England, for England is only made by the Englishman and woman. And today, there is no England, no Scotland, no Wales, No Northern Ireland. Just the United Kingdom. We're all British first here for now.

This is another Madrid, but the terrorists have failed. Yes, they may wind up pulling British troops out of Iraq due to public outcry, but in secret?

During the 70's and 80's, there was War in Ireland. The SAS and SBS, and other British paramilitary forces, waged a war out of the public eye against the IRA. With this incident, if the government has the gaul to take the initiave, they will commence that war once again, but this time, against the terrorists that we currently are not hititng like that due to the fact the US is mostly in charge of the operations.

In short, this will be a failure for the enemy, and do nothing but make the best forces the UK has hit them in full strength. London's emergency services were prepared to respond to an incident like this, and at the moment, it's sick to say, the numbers of causalties are basically pathetic. This is the worst ever terrorist incident in the UK, and it's over 33 confirmed dead right now, and to put that into context ,there were ten moref fatalities at Omagh than there were at King's Cross station today. The fire there in 1987 killed 31 people also, so an accident and a single device comparitvley did more damage.

The only damage this has really done is to the dead, injured, and their relatives. This cowardly act is ultimatley nothing more than murders, and will not affect the UK in any major way apart from to make us far more likely to strike out and do the damage we should have already been doing to world terrorism. The economy is just in a slight panic, IMO, and the whole situation will level off, and something approaching normality will return to London sometime before next Tuesday

This will only really affect the ID cards thing, either making them a more viable idea or utterly destroying the concept, and the aftermath as a whole, for most of the country and most of the world, will really be minimal. This has turned out so far to look like a shock effort, but I don't think that's it. It looks like a somewhat botched mass murder attack, for the UK is hard to shock with terrorism: The IRA know that, and surely, if these international terrorists are as competent as the media has said, they'd have learned that an attempt to shock the UK will not work.

It's barely a scratch to the greater body of the UK, and an inhuman act on innocent victims which is all the more tragic for the individuals as it did not mean anything in the long term.

Edit

BTW, If you are wanting any information on what is going on right now, it goes without saying that The British Broadcasting Corporation are probably the biggest news group that has the best information at this time.

This post has been edited by Del S on 7th July 2005 16:52

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

Wait, there were bombing in London? HOLY CRAP! I'm not trying to be funny, I honestly haven't been keeping up with the news at all (since I got Xenogears...), so this is completely new to me! When did this happen? What are the details?

Moderator Edit

cnn.com

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 7th July 2005 16:49

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The island bathes in the sun's bright rays
Distant hills wear a shroud of grey
A lonely breeze whispers in the trees
Sole witness to history

ICO-You were there-

Quote (Rangers51 @ 7th July 2005 09:15)

Do you really think they do it to make us see things their way?

That's a good point actually. I guess I was giving them to much credit. Glad to hear your friend is ok.

Hopefully Britain will view these events the same way as us as opposed to the course Spain chose. It's no more Britain's fault for being there than it is our fault for being a desired target that they haven't been able to succeed at attacking again. I think there are enough intelligent people across the pond to know who is really to blame for things of this nature and react accordingly.

I'm very angry about this this morning.

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

Wasn't this where G8 was being held?

Pretty bad news, really. Having to use innocent people with no ties whatsoever to the terrorists' cause to prove their point is wrong and sick. Luckily "only" two people were killed, but those are two innocent lives taken under circumstances that should have never occured, and two families that'll never be the same again. Just terrible...

It certainly caused a stir at work (though to a programmer focused on hammering a bug out of an app, a "stir" only involves a concerned "hrm" and an eyebrow being raised. The feeling's just as strong though.)

Apparently most of the damage done was to the subway system. Coordinated attack, or random act of senseless violence? Tragedy for two families, either way.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

In fact at least 33 people were killed today in London's bombings. I don't know how these terrorists can be stopped altogether but I hope they are. The sooner the better.

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'Let that be a lesson to all oppressive vegetable sellers.'

33 people? Good god, I thought it was less! The article I read this morning only mentionned 2. That's quite a bit more, heh. :/

Sucks a lot...

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Silverlance @ 7th July 2005 18:15)

Wasn't this where G8 was being held?

It's being held here in the UK, yes, but up north about 400 miles in Scotland. The incident was clearly timed to try and dirsupt thet G8 at the very least.

Quote

Pretty bad news, really. Having to use innocent people with no ties whatsoever to the terrorists' cause to prove their point is wrong and sick. Luckily "only" two people were killed, but those are two innocent lives taken under circumstances that should have never occured, and two families that'll never be the same again. Just terrible...

It certainly caused a stir at work (though to a programmer focused on hammering a bug out of an app, a "stir" only involves a concerned "hrm" and an eyebrow being raised. wink.gif The feeling's just as strong though.)

Apparently most of the damage done was to the subway system. Coordinated attack, or random act of senseless violence? Tragedy for two families, either way.

Actually, the current situation according to the live TV right now is 37 confirmed dead, at least 750 injured, about 50 of those critically. One of the targets was a bus. Again, can I remind people that the BBC are covering this in full, and if you are worried about anyone in London, follow the advice located on the homepage that has been given out by various groups

I must question the relevance of you pointing out that at your work, it caused a "slight stir". Many of us are very aware you are a prgrammer, and continually saying so, espeically in this situation, has very little point , and all it does is make you seem like you do not care about the current situation, and the lack of up-to-date information you are acting with here does you no help in contradicting the impression many people will be getting that you are not very concerned with this tragedy at any real level.



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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

I believe this also to be a failed mission for the terrorists. My sincerest condolences to the victims and their families. My father often travels to London, and my parents vacationed there last year. They stayed at a hotel a block away from where the bus was bombed.

I don't like the way he puts it, but Bush is right. Islamic extremists label us as infidels, we are the enemy. Maybe not because "we practice democracy and freedom", but more so of what we do with our freedom.

-The Islamic extremists are incited over the fact that women are not required to bear a veil over their faces. Instead we are open about sexuality, and it's even all over our media.

-The Islamic extremists are incited over the fact that homosexuals are not dragged into the town square and then beaten and executed.

-The Islamic extremists are incited over the fact that we are allowed to say that which we wish, without fear of reprisal.

-The Islamic extremists are incited over the fact that we allow religious freedon, not exclusively Islam.

We are "The Great Satan". Please tell me why this would change if we didn't finish the job and just withdrew from Iraq right now? The problem is that as they don't understand the western value system, and we don't understand theirs. They are two completely polarized ideologies and cannot coexist when met. We find their terrorism disgusting and barbaric and they find our democracy as imposition on their culture and stealing their wealth.

Please tell me how letting up and "leaving them alone" will change these belief structures and ideologies? Right now the vast majority of terrorist cells are operating strictly in Iraq, and directing all their planning and resources solely in one war zone. We are only dealing with small, manageable (I don't know a better word) attacks, rather than large scale 9/11 types. You can't just be prepared and on guard 24/7/365 against a terrorist attack that could come from anywhere and could be directed at anything.

You can only prevent terrorism from destorying the root. Either A.) Eliminating the offenders physically. Or B.) A change in their belief structure to stop hating us. Maybe if the entire Western community dumped Christianity and the rest of the plate of Religion and converted to Islam this would work.

Appeasing terrorists and letting them have the freedom to do as they please will only give rise to more terrorist attacks. I see NO reason to believe that if we just "let them be" that all of the sudden their extremism and entire culture would be turned over sideways to become peaceful towards us, despite the "Great Satan" still breathing across the water.

This was not just an attack against a government body, military target, or public official. This was an atttack on innocent people. Terrorism is not just a traditional fight between governments. These are bombings directed to the slaughter of innocent people. This does not just go away in a couple years. I just can't believe (not here of course) some of the Islamic Apologists out there that excuse these types of tactics.

This post has been edited by Tidu-who on 7th July 2005 21:56

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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

This is awful, awful news to come online to. I heard about it early this morning, and then it was all over the news on tv, of course. I called home to see if my parents had heard anything from our relatives in London, and there was nothing. No news is probably good news, though, as someone would have called if something happened.

I've heard there are connections to Al-Quiada (spelling wrong, I know) already, and something about there being cameras all over the place, so hopefully more will be learned about who is really responsible.

To our UK members (and anyone in the London area or with friends/family there): *hug*

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

Yes it was Al-Quiada terroists that did the bombing. I think (most people do that i have talked to) this is kind of a 9/11 to england but not as BIG or dramatic as 9/11 was for us. Im not saying the bombing isnt a big deal but it doesnt seem the news is making this a HUGE thing outta it like 9/11 was.

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"To be forgotten is worst than death." Freya , FF9

"How do you prove that you exist...? Maybe we dont exist." Vivi, FF9

My heart goes out to board members from the UK, and anyone else that might have been affected by this tragedy.

Quote (BiZZaRo @ 7th July 2005 18:49)

Im not saying the bombing isnt a big deal but it doesnt seem the news is making this a HUGE thing outta it like 9/11 was.

Possibly because you're watching American news, I think the Beeb is treating it pretty strongly, as they should. Regardless of the difference in the number of casualties between this and 9/11, it is just as much of a catastrophe in my mind. Any attack on innocent civilians is.

Our hearts go out to everyone in the UK. Be strong, be safe, perservere.

Quote (BiZZaRo @ 8th July 2005 00:49)

Yes it was Al-Quiada terroists that did the bombing. I think (most people do that i have talked to) this is kind of a 9/11 to england...

The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland, please. England may be the largest part, London may be in the largest part, but this was an attack on the whole country. In addition, nothing has been really confirmed as to the identiy of the attackers yet: A group claiming links to Al-Quida has indeed claimed responsibity, but it is as likely that it was some moron posting on a message board has sparked this 'IT WAS TEH OSAMA!' thing, as personally I feelt hat if these terrorists were really so competent, they would ahve a name that does not sound like it's coem from the mind of a total and utter moron. The Metropolitain Police will not be ruling out any possiblities, and so, they have not yet confirmed the prime suspects, but it is indeed very likely it is Al-Quida or a related group, but that is not how the efforts to find the attackers will operate: You cannot just assume in this situation, and I am growing ever more angry with the assumptions being made, when it is entirely possible that a non Al-Quida group may be behind the incident. It is far too early for assumptions and I wish the world would be patient and remember that, for knee-jerk responses will not help us either to catch the killers nor prevent any future atrocities.

Quote

but not as BIG or dramatic as 9/11 was for us. Im not saying the bombing isnt a big deal but it doesnt seem the news is making this a HUGE thing outta it like 9/11 was.

Well, in some ways, it was, in that it was totally unexpected and seemingly well co-ordinated (as well as the obvious paralell with the four attacks), but IMO, the media is basically making a mountain out of a molehill. It WAS horrific, yes, but the figures are far less than comparable incidents. The Lockerbie bombing killed more people, and I am surprised it has not been counted as the largest terrorist act on UK soil, for it is the only real occasion where an aircraft has been brought down by terrorism in the UK to my knowledge. It's being blown out of real proportion by some of the more tabloid element sof the UK and world media I think: the Scum, er, Sun for instance seems to have totally forgotten that things like this in the UK are really nothing new nor entirely unexpected. I find it ironic that the elements of the media that I felt were "too americanized" before this have merely gone on to prove that they are indeed, just copying the kind of sensationalist tripe that is churned out by many US and other nation's medias. The BBC have been doing a sterling job in keeping it all calm, collected, and not making any real assumptions, but instead, just reporting the facts as they are.

Naturally, though, the concrete facts are thin on the ground as the Government here has the brains to realise national security is far greater than the rights of the media. The media can eventually report all the facts, so, as compromise, they can be told to stay quiet and prevent any further damage being done.

I must say, though, we Brits can still do stiff upper lip well, can't we?

Quote (Tidu-who @ 7th July 2005 22:45)

I believe this also to be a failed mission for the terrorists. My sincerest condolences to the victims and their families. My father often travels to London, and my parents vacationed there last year. They stayed at a hotel a block away from where the bus was bombed. 

It was a filure, but every single statement I see making assumpiton, in my opinon, mitigates that failure and is making the enemy suceed: they wanted to scare people. They failed to frighten the UK, but have suceeded in frightening others and the more panicky elements of the media. We make them lose by being calm, collected, and not making assumptions, however logical those assumptions may really be: Calm and surgicla is better than angry and random, and that is how this will hopefully be done.

Quote

We are "The Great Satan". Please tell me why this would change if we didn't finish the job and just withdrew from Iraq right now? The problem is that as they don't understand the western value system, and we don't understand theirs. They are two completely polarized ideologies and cannot coexist when met. We find their terrorism disgusting and barbaric and they find our democracy as imposition on their culture and stealing their wealth.

Please tell me how letting up and "leaving them alone" will change these belief structures and ideologies? Right now the vast majority of terrorist cells are operating strictly in Iraq, and directing all their planning and resources solely in one war zone. We are only dealing with small, manageable (I don't know a better word) attacks, rather than large scale 9/11 types. You can't just be prepared and on guard 24/7/365 against a terrorist attack that could come from anywhere and could be directed at anything.

Who says about letting up? The war on terror is being fought wrong, as we're striking the body and limbs rather than the head right now. What we need to do is attack the roots of it all by fghting the poverty and despair that the extremists use as a breeding ground and replace it with hope, and our deep regret for the foolish acts of our forefather and our own more extreme elements. Islam is a relgion of peace, but like the Bible, like the Torah, the Qu-ran, if read the wrong way, is a tool for extremists to use for hatred and murder, to brainwash people into hijacking a holy book into a dark and sinister purpose.

Quote

You can only prevent terrorism from destorying the root. Either A.) Eliminating the offenders physically. Or B.) A change in their belief structure to stop hating us. Maybe if the entire Western community dumped Christianity and the rest of the plate of Religion and converted to Islam this would work.

C) Poison the roots so the weed does not grow back. We do this by levelleing the playing fields. We do this by cutting off the reasons for many people to ahte us: and that is that we interfere too much. We need a two stage war to win the war on terror: the public peaceful one where we fight the poverty, and the secret one where we fight the few remaining extremists on a smaller scale. The misguided Iraq War was definetly a major help to the enemy, for they have Iraq to use as further brainwash material.

We should not appease them. We should prevent them expanding, prevent them continuing, and kill them. It is the same with killing weeds. If the root of the weed is dead, it does not return. However, the key trouble is, you leave a small scrap of the root, it just comes back. That is why conventional war will not work against them, and why we must move the true war back into the shadows were it was before September the 11th. The public reprisal was meant to appease the angry public, but it would have been far better for a calm and collected strike carried out away from the public eye. Still, hindsight's a wonderful thing I guess.

Quote

This was not just an attack against a government body, military target, or public official. This was an atttack on innocent people. Terrorism is not just a traditional fight between governments. These are bombings directed to the slaughter of  innocent people. This does not just go away in a couple years. I just can't believe (not here of course) some of the Islamic Apologists out there that excuse these types of tactics. 

Only the people who use the tactics make up excuses to them. The "Islamic Apologists" are just idiots who want total peace at any cost, and by the way, 99.99% of muslims do not agree with this ins. I want peace at an acceptable cost: kill the roots and then the heads. Just do the head-killing in the dark.

Oh, and on another note, there are apparently protestors, possibly related to the G8 summit on the Kingston Bridge in Glasgow as I type (That's a major transit route in Scotland's largest city, BTW, and one of the UK's largest cities, but I must also point out that problems on that particular bridge happen every other week...) disrupting traffic. That the police are granting them thier right to protest right now rather than blowing their heads off is, I feel, another victory against the terrorists, as it shows that Glasgow, my nearest city, and itslef probably a candidate for an attack similar to yesterday (Albeit with a smaller and less important underground railway system) is not panicking, and it is showing that, as a whole, the terrorists struck out yesterday, and they failed. It is buisness as usual as possible this morning in the United Kingdom, and all that is different is, we are clearing up and grieving. We're still going.

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

Sorry I misspelled B-l-a-i-r.





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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Well, another nearly identical attack has happened in London. This time, thankfully, it does not appear to have any casualties. Apparently the explosives malfunctions and did not explode how they were supposed to.

I must say, I really liked what Prime Minister Howard from Australia had to say earlier. And despite what alot of people from the UK say, I think that what Tony Blair says really makes sense. I don't see everyone's problem with him. (Though of course, I'm clearly not an expert on the man or his positions).

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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

It's really pathetic what means a group of ignorant barbarians will use.

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At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid.
Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

I'll repeat what I said two weeks ago: There's nothing concrete known or at least released on these incidents at this time yet either so speculation is not really anything but what you think. Once again, there's obvious timing: 14 days after the last attacks. Right now, for all we know, it could have been right-wing nationalist groups trying to use squibs and "failed devices" to make people think "The Muslim Barbarians are at it again!" and have people support any cries they make to "send them all back." I wouldn't put it past them.

Edit

In case you are as simple minded and arrogant as someone was in chat at 03:02 GMT, the above comment is just a small example of what was POSSIBLE and an example of why speculation can be a bad thing. In this case, it worked well, as aforementioned person who shall remain namless but not blameless, had the gaul to try call me liberal, a term that indicates a simplistic outlook I hate. And I am NOT defending the scum, but when we consider our so-called allies are unwilling to let us think for outselves,and are to blame for the fact it's all going wrong, we truly should not be on any side forthis was not even our war until two weeks ago. Any issues, PM them to me, not a smarmy comment in chat that annoys me when I wake up at half past three in the morning and sees me labbeled some sort of islamist fundementalist liberal which is something I am most definetly not. I am athesit. I am very supportive that the liberties of a few should be removed in the name of the vast many for the safety of the many so long as there is a significant justification. I'm fairly left-central.

Certain people need to drop the simple outlook on complex things. This is a complex thing. I said that example to show that it was entirely belivable that it may not have been Islamic fundementalists, but I naively hoped saying that out loud would not be needed. I clearly forgot how beloved the rights of any right wingers not to be speculated into being a possible suspect far supercede the rights of left-wingers who are in the goddamned country that is affected to point out what is possible and why thinking about possibles can be a bit pointless by giving an example of a sort of devils advocate that thinks in possibles that, whilst extreme, where wholly possible. Still the person in chat isn't the sharpest spoon in the drawer, so I think that erson may be the only one too many braincels short of realising that it was just an example of another possbility as to who could be behind the recent incidents. A reminder, issues with that, to my face by pm, not what you think is behind my back because it's very annoying to have someone call me things and accuse me of things I find very offensive and wholly inaccurate. Just because you are always right wing doesn't mean you're right.

Apart from all that, a man has been arrested, and others are being sought for questioning, and so, hopefully, that means whoever is to blame, be they Islamic fundementalists or some domestic group with a greiviance wanting a smokescreen, or another body, will soon lose thier current secuirity and have operations disrutped for a short while at least.

This post has been edited by Del S on 22nd July 2005 03:15

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.