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It really bothers me when people feel the need to tell you can't do something because you don't fit into their little perfect world. The world isn't perfect, and it's because of people who feel this way.

Quote (Hikaroo @ 23rd February 2004 19:05)

I used to be proud that I worked my pant size from an 18 to an 10/11, but now I just feel horrible.

K, first off, I just want to say that Hikaroo, that is a very impressive feat. You should be VERY proud of yourself for that accoplishment.



As I said earlier, I've always struggled with a weight problem. I was quite overweight ever since I was in middle school, not to mention the weight gain I had caused by anti-depressants about the same time.


Now... I have been out of high school for a couple of years, but back in high school, I worked out. Lifted weights, and walked (Knee injuries prevented me from running and playing football, so I had to resort to lower stress exercises,) along with eating healthy, and I was 6'1 and still heavy, even though I was quite fit. I ate right, and worked out. I still had some parts that weren't as slim as I would have liked, but the fact of the matter was... my weight wasn't changing. It was staying the same.

Of course, while I did get a bit of teasing about that, I wasn't presured to lose weight by sociaty. I was what I was.

How ever... You have woman who are 5'10 or so, and weigh 150-200. Honestly, that isn't awfull... but since sociaty says you should be 5'4 and 110, they feel presured to meet that standard. Sociaty puts ALOT of presure on them to do what ever they can to get to that 100ish weight. I know I don't feel that preasure, though I know I should lose some weight for health reasons.

Honestly, I find woman who have a bit more mass to them to be more attractive then those who don't. I'd take a 170 lb 5'10 woman over a 100 lb 5'4 woman any day of the week. Still, sociaty tells the former of the two that they are to fat to be attractive, which is a problem.

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"And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped” -Sir Bedevere the Wise

somehow this thread's subject seems to have changed a little, but a sensible point was brought up, and i think its worth discussing at the length we are. this isnt so much on the topic of double standards as it is peoples appearance, self image and perception of others. if any mods dont like me straying from the topic a little, just tell me, ill delete this post and i apologize. here we go:

beauty is from within.

whether people want to see that or not, i believe that its true. heres a little assignment for everyone here: read a couple threads, and pick 15 names of some of the members of the forums that you particularly enjoy talking to or reading what they have to say. ONLY pick people that you have never seen in any way, shape or form, and visualize them, simply based on their personalities and things theyve said. im not kidding, seriously do it.

just so you know im not bs'ing, i picked glenn magus harvey, morguen, elena99, mewmon, neal, hikaroo, gerad, kame, narratorway, bismark187, lilly, dark paladin, io rage, bgrugby, and smash (Del was actually one of the first names i put on here, but i saw his picture once so that would be cheating. if you're angry/offended by having your name in my post, or simply dont like me, just PM me, and ill take it off with no hard feelings).

picked your 15 yet? good. now think of what these people look like.

not a bad looking bunch of people are they? nobodys ugly if you never seen them. personality can say so much more for a person than physical appearance, but so many people fail to realize that. EVERYONE is judged immediately on what they look like, man or woman, an its not fair, but not much is. the only way to change the problem of appearance is to ignore it, and look at the PEOPLE, not the shell.

the only girl i ever really loved was overweight for a long time, and i think im the only person in my whole school that found her attractive. she was the most beautiful person i ever met because of what was on the inside, and so to me, she was the most beautiful person on the outside because of that.

im 5'9", 140 pounds, dont bother shaving or cutting my hair anymore, and the only clothes i have are ripped and tattered. i got all kinds of scars and imperfections. but that doesnt matter to anyone who can see beyond all that, and those are the only people that i choose to talk to.

look within.

This post has been edited by therandyrhoads on 24th February 2004 09:16

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You watch the world exploding every single night
Dancing in the sun, a newborn in the light
Say goodbye to gravity and say goodbye to death
Hello to eternity and live for every breath

Your time will come...

I wasted a little time before answering, and now Gerad said almost exactly what I wanted to say on the matter. But still, I wanted to answer, being one of the few here who isn't american.

Your scales of height and weight mean little to me, limited as I am by the metric system. I am 1.77 m tall, for 63 kgs, wich isn't very much (in my opinion and all my family and friends), and this is a recent weight. When I was in highschool, my weight was between 55 and 60 kgs. I was constantly feeling insecure about my weight back then, and there was not much I could do about it, having as Elena pointed out a very fast metabolism : I can eat the same portion of food as my friend who is 1.85 m and 90 kgs, and not gain a gramme.

Anyway, my most important point is that, between all the double standards, judgement from people around you, peer pressure or constant pep up talk of the ones who love you, the only person apt to understand how you feel is you. It doesn't matter if everyone around you would dream of having the same body or metabolism as you, or that they rather would have you to change : it's only whether you accept yourself and your body.

For years I tried to gain weight (weight problems don't go in only one direction), while my best friend was trying to lose some. It took me a while to stop trying, and to accept that I would probably never look the way I wanted to. Still, I believe that the process I went through was good for me (although it wasn't succesful, since the weight I gain between highschool and now is mostly fat ), as it made me realise that the reasons I was doing it were wrong, or at least felt wrong to me.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that despite all your good intentions, you can't fully understand how a person feels about him/herself. You can accept how they look like, you can respect that they're trying to change or do not give a damn about their appearance. I don't think however that anyone should judge someone on his looks, or on his habits, or tell him that he "shouldn't eat that" or "shouldn't try to lose weight that hard". When I'm asked a question about weight or eating habits, my first question is always "What do you think about it?", since it is always the most relevant, IMO.

The subject of eating disorders has appear a number of times in this thread, and I wanted to add my little stone to it. I myself isn't a nutritionist, nor a psychiatrist, so I wouldn't know about diagnosing a eating disorder. As far as I'm concern, I could only guess, and I think that everyone should be careful before saying "he/she has a eating disorder".

I don't know if I made myself clear, since it's a tricky subject, and for the first time in my posting here I feel limited by the fact that english isn't my birth language. I hope I didn't offend anyone, but please do state it if I did.

This post has been edited by Mr Thou on 24th February 2004 14:01

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Nomatter how you phrase it, you came off as very insensitive and cruel in that post, Iggy.

Sorry, I reread it - it was. I personally don't give a damn whether a woman is fat or thin. I can't lie and say I wouldn't prefer a thin woman, but it's not what I think about when settling down.

So it's not that I think you, or any fat women look ugly. It's just it's unhealthy to be overweight. There's currently an epidemic sweeping Britain on obesity, and many people are dying. It's not ugliness I'm caring about, it's the risk of death.

Quote

Well, coming from a guy whose sister nearly died of anorexia last year, and with a gf who was headed down that route before I forced

As much as I'm sorry for all you've been put through...it's untrue that annorexia takes more lives than obesity. It's a fact obesity takes more lives. Your opinion is a biased one because of experience, but I can't lie and say mine isn't either. More on that in a second.

I'm not taking a pop at fat women, I've already said I don't care. Some of you already think, "Oh, that Iggy is an uncaring individual who is just making fun of fat people because of their weight!" I recently lost someone to obesity. Their size made them so unhealthy they died. Afterwards, I felt like shit because she didn't mind about her weight. She wasn't careful, and I didn't do anything to slim her down because I was fine with her weight.

So when I say paranoia can be a good thing in small amounts, it's because I don't like hearing on the news, "Hundreds of overweight individuals have died this year due to obesity." And more than that, I don't want to lose anyone again because of it.

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"Luck is my middle name. Mind you, my first name is Bad." - Rincewind

You can be as self-assertive as you like, just so long as you do what you’re told.” - Granny Weatherwax

"When Mr. Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend" - Sam Vimes to Detritus

I want to add something in here that is an important point.

Iggy is an Englishman. I had forgotten, sorry, and was reminded when talking to Tiddles. Apparently, over there, the problem is not anything like what it is in the US and Canada.

Still, from what I understand, it exists. Everyone just needs to keep in mind that most of the people talking in here are American, and have experiences in American countries. Likewise, people from England have different double standards, and different experiences.

Anyway, the problem with the pressure to be skinny, Iggy, is more of a mental one (low self-esteem, self-hatred, depression), than a physical one. Being too fat can kill you, certainly. But wanting to be skinny as badly as some girls do can drive you to tears, especially the ones who are already thin, but think they need to be thinner. Most of these girls who feel the pressure to be thinner aren't unhealthily big to begin with.

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

Quote (Iggy @ 24th February 2004 12:23)

So it's not that I think you, or any fat women look ugly. It's just it's unhealthy to be overweight. There's currently an epidemic sweeping Britain on obesity, and many people are dying. It's not ugliness I'm caring about, it's the risk of death.

Quote

Well, coming from a guy whose sister nearly died of anorexia last year, and with a gf who was headed down that route before I forced

As much as I'm sorry for all you've been put through...it's untrue that annorexia takes more lives than obesity. It's a fact obesity takes more lives. Your opinion is a biased one because of experience, but I can't lie and say mine isn't either. More on that in a second.

I figured someone would say that. Well for starters, I'd say false. In Britain, this quite possibly could be true. However, over in America, in the Northwest anyways, obesity is FAR less of a problem. I know of three girls in my high school of 1400 people that are dangerously overweight. And of course, a good chunk who would just fall under "overweight". But the number of underweight, with DANGEROUS eating habits of people that I know is huge. I can tell a normally skinny girl, from an obviously unhealthy one.

There are anorexia self help groups at my school. Why? Because it's a major problem. Obesity groups? None. While we Americans have the reps of being fat, Mcdonald's chowing slobs, with the media these days, and the NONSTOP "don't eat this, it'll make you fat" "don't eat that either." Not to mention the neverending "don't ever eat carbs" atkins diet crap, we're fairly educated on what "not to eat". People are far less educated on the fact that they need to eat substantially in general (eating nothing at all is a common misconception that people have about anorexics. eating lots of carrot sticks and celery might as well be eating nothing).

Anorexia may not take more lives, as in death. But it ruins FAR more lives. Some girls think about almost nothing but this. It's an obsession. It's different than obesity, because it's not like the person is TRYING to get as fat as they can. They're just passive to the situation. Anorexics are absolutely agressive to "obtain their goals". Blah, I shouldn't just say anorexics, "people that are always in want of losing weight" I'll say.

This post has been edited by Tidu-who on 25th February 2004 04:23

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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

Quote (Hikaroo @ 22nd February 2004 23:02)

Through all of the years of my life, I have noticed a substantial amout of social double standards and unfairness, for lack of a better word. Just recently, my media teacher brought to my attention, that for a woman to make it in the music industry, she has to be attractive. Men don't have to be, so why women?

That just means men need talent, whereas women don't.

Quote (Hikaroo @ 22nd February 2004 23:02)

Why is it, that most men say they want their women to have a sense of self pride, or at least not being self-downing, but then afterwards some would specify that they want their women skinny? All that will do is remove what self-confidence said person has, and make them paranoid about how they look and whether they're pretty or not.  I admit that some/most women feel that they want their men to be something as well, but it is emphasized so much in the American media. When you look through magazines, you see scantily clad, skinny, busty women. Most men are fully clothed. Why is it that women are still viewed like sexy busty personal-use objects, when men are usually displayed as important money-making people? Some things really perplex me, and this is certainly one of them. I figure if a guy doesn't have to be pretty to be a singer, why should a woman?

Not that I would know, but maybe a man's appeal isn't linked to the skin that is covered by clothing, like a woman's is?

Quote (Elena99 @ 22nd February 2004 23:26)

And the clothing stores! Just try fitting into pants at your typical young person's clothing store. It's enough to make a girl depressed.

Clothing stores stick the clothes in front that are for petit teen to 20s women (mainly because they're the ones who spend more).
And you're not the only one who has trouble finding clothes. All I can find are what look like clothes for rappers or 60-year old golfers.

Quote (i4v @ 22nd February 2004 23:57)

There is also a little problem I have with the dating system. If man takes out a woman, his is expectied to pay, even if they both work. Isn't that inequality.

...
That isn't the same thing.

Anyways, my turn.
Men and women both get alot of heat about looks. It's just that women's pressures tend to end up with unhealthy means to end theirs. Women's main issues have been discussed (breast size, waist size, etc.) Men's appearance requirements are either a specific type of skinny or muscular (and there are other things, as always, like hair arrangement, but that's going beyond my main point). But, "being too fat" is an issue that does travel over to the male gender, even when it's slight. I myself have been teased about being fat (though there are two stupidities behind that - I'm not overweight, I just have an unusual frame (shoulders are broad beyond what is normal for my height, to name one) so clothes fit me weird; and insults have a difficult time affecting me (they might as well call me a cell phone)).
Anyways, back to the topic.
I think one of the biggest issues behind double standards for genders is the strange mixture of the lack of and abundance of gender defenition. The Feminism movement resulted in the increase of personal liberties for women, but it also came with the message that women basically had to be men. Every place, every profession, every bahavior men had, a woman had to be (Note: I am not saying this is a bad thing), all while holding few things to hold to femininity, like appearance standards, moodiness, nymphomania, and other stereotypes.
What happened to men was the loss of defenition of what it means to be a man. The things that formerly defined a man, like honor, strength, responsibility, chivalry, and stability were lost because they were old-fashined, and thus sexist. All that was left were new appearance standards, the unrelenting quest for sex (which means not truly taking "no" for an answer), being "tough" without true strength, and other stereotypes.
We went from a society that had different roles and rules for each gender to one that did not allow seperate roles, yet continued to keep them (though different ones).
(Note: I am not blaming this aspect of society's problem on the Women's Rights Movement itself, I am just saying that's what resulted because the people on both sides brought it into being the wrong way)
(Note: this is not all of my points, sub-points, or supports, just the ones I can remember at the moment. It's midnight, and I'm tired)

Both genders have their problems, both genders are on both ends of double standards, and both genders as a whole are at fault.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

I have to point some things out:

Music industyr-
1. I find most of the currently "popular" female performs unattractive. Neither do I find the ones viewed as "attractive" to posses any actual talent.

2. Nina Haagen (you may have heard of her) - she has a great, etheral-fiendish voice and she can sing. She's also butt-ugly and old.

3. The thing is, about male performers: most of them nowadays HAVE to be attractive to some group of girls. As someone said before it sells. We've got Justin Timberlake, gone from boysband pretty-face thing to fairly look-at-able man to keep his career going. The boys from Nickelback are the pretty ones too. Eminem? I know at least a dozen girls who love his looks. Machine Head changed their appearance (cut their hair!). They looked like vile beasts before. Now their another set of pretty boys.

Second: Girls and weight...

Oh, gods! When I hear girls, PRETTY GIRLS, and I mean PRETTY, saying they need to lose weight, I go: "WTF?!? Why????"
They usually point to some skinny thing at the other end of the hall/street/room/wherever and say that I should look how "...thin that girl is! And legs like that! If you'd were to grab my leg, you'd need both hands to hold it all around (like a ring, closed grip, that means)..."
And that's the point: WHERE DID ALL THE WOMEN GET THE IDEA THAT THEY NEED TO BE SKINNY/THIN ?!? AND WHAT'S WITH THEIR SELF-CONFIDENCE? I mean: what I look for in a girl's LOOKS is a nice face, with eyes that express something and a figure that has CURVES. Not a blank board.
If we guys (I asked around my bud's, they think same as I do) would want to go out with some liveless, flattenned, piece of light organic material, we'd get ourselves cardboard.

Third: Double standards of men...
We'll, we guys are often portrayed in the media either as lustful, macho hunks, or complete imbecils. (The women are usually objects of sexual desire... BO-ring!)
I don't like it at all...

I'd something more, but one - this post is long enough as is, and two - it considers political corectness AND double standards and some poeple might be a little fussy about PC.

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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Quote (Elena99 @ 24th February 2004 12:57)

Anyway, the problem with the pressure to be skinny, Iggy, is more of a mental one (low self-esteem, self-hatred, depression), than a physical one.

elena, you've hit the proverbial nail head-on. now, at the risk of sounding like an arrogant jackass, i'll see if i can't drive it home.

i see a lot of people pointing fingers at x music idol or y media belle, but the fact of the matter is, pinpointing the popular culture as the source of the problem is not only incorrect, it's suggesting that the solution would have to lie within a change in popular culture. i'm sure we can all agree that popular culture is not going to change anytime soon and certainly not in the radical and somewhat absurd methods that serve to solve the problem. that is, it's not fair to assume that good-looking models and culture icons, and the people who would rather see *them* (as opposed to less good-looking people) on television are at fault. i have seen people suggest in chat that it would be more fair to have persons representative of all sizes and beauty on model runways. i can't possibly begin to think that i'm the only person that sees something wrong with that. maybe i am, but isn't the point of a fashion runway for everything to look good? i'd rather see, say, carmen electra modelling the newest z fashion company's ideas than rosie o'donnel. apparently, i'm not the only one, because that's the way it works.

no, the fault lies mostly, as elena said, psychologically, emotionally, and mentally in the hands of the people who feel pressured to look perfect. i don't think i can stress enough that *all people are different.* some people have bodies such that they can become models. some people have minds such that they can become programmers. some people have tongues such that they can become authors. some people have legs such that they can become runners. the list continues. to sit and complain that you do not look like x or y is just that -- baseless complaining. first, i believe the "pressure" is for the most part purely fantastic. certainly high school guys and girls may create an atmosphere to where people may think they have to be possesed of [A] characteristics to be "popular," but in the "real world," i think many of the people who are complaining about the "double-standard" in this thread would be surprised to see any statistics (none of which exist to my knowledge) on how many men actually won't settle for a woman less than beyoncé. it's nowhere near as overstated as you people are trying to make it seem.

now, as for these people who are putting this tremendous amount of pressure on themselves because they are unhappy with their bodies (which, again, is a problem of the self...how can you possibly be unhappy with the way your body or mind is? it baffles me sometimes to see people so unsatisfied with who they are, instead of being positive, taking advantage of their strengths, and doing something proactive...), as i said in chat, there are pharmaceutical and therapeutical options for those people who don't feel like their self-esteem or self-worth is high enough to deal with these so-called "pressures" (which, again, are more a product of the self). i know a lot of people can't afford or may not want to explore these options, but honestly if the problem can't be nipped in the bud, then maybe it's time to have someone/thing help pull out the weeds. high school and middle school are cruel, cruel places, but the pressures created there should have no bearing on the rest of life. at stages of life past high school, like i said in chat, only a tom cruise-looking guy is going to stand for nothing less than a penelope-looking girl. now, if you're a girl who considers yourself ugly and you're mad because tom won't have you, then perhaps YOU have the double standard...why not go for a guy who isn't an adonis?

the bottom line is, women (and men, the problem without a doubt extends to them) in america really need to take the time to analyse themselves. if you are unhappy with how you are, do not look for scapegoats in the media. do not pile blame on pretty people and those who enjoy watching them. examine yourself. ask yourself *why* you feel that way. because britney is good-looking? give it a rest, honestly. what, again, does that have to do with you? now, if it just so happens that everyone you know refuses to show you even a smidgen of kindness because you don't look like a carbon copy of alessandra ambrosio, then maybe you have a case. otherwise, be more happy with who you are. not only will it make you feel better, it will allow you to dismiss "pressures" in your life as not even worth your consideration.

let me ask a final question, to those of you who would find blame with the media: do you want to see a size 12 woman waltzing accross a runway/the stage wearing those skimpy fashions that are the craze these days? that is not the place of a size 12 woman. however, i have a professor who, while not just obese, isn't model-quality herself. but she's one of the best particle physics teachers in the world. now how's that for maximizing on your strengths? everyone has strengths and weaknesses. capitalise on the former, and don't focus your energies on the latter. do you really think every girl in the world is supposed to be a-1 in looks?

Quote (Rangers51 @ 23rd February 2004 11:24)

And I think maybe it's best to keep race out of this. I know it's kind of vague, but I think the topic is more about gender stereotyping than racial.

It's a good thing I read that before I snapped.

Like many other people here, the girl I am dating now has battled anorexia, and still thinks she needs to lose weight, even though she is a perfectly healthy weight for her height. I agree with Elena's point, no matter how much reassurance I give her that she looks wonderful, she still has to deal with the expectations of society that she has the body type of a Barbie doll. There aren't many females (or males, for that matter) out there who have the self-confidence to completely cast off the expectations society sets for us and accept ourselves for who we are.

Most of the entertainment industry does perpetuate expected body types for women. This is why I applaud singers such as Jill Scott, who has a wonderful voice in addition to having a fairly large body type. I would love to see more singers follow in her footsteps (especially if they're all as talented as she is.)

In terms of male double standards, well, I don't think it's nearly as bad as it used to be. Whenever I tell anyone I'm studying education, they immediately assume it's secondary. When I tell them I want to teach early elementary they're surprised, but 90% of the people I talk to say something along the lines of "great, we need more male teachers in elementary schools." I don't know, I just don't think it's that bad. Maybe because I kind of fit the standard. I'm not the least bit fat and I don't drink alchohol, but I am what you would call "sports-obsessed" (putting it mildly.) I suppose it makes it much easier having a lot of somewhat nerdy tendencies if you're also a walking database of sports knowledge and an accomplished athlete.

Like Mr. Thou mentioned, I had a small weight problem going in the opposite direction. It was a little hard, especially since it's good to be skinny in cross-country and track, but in between I needed to try an gain weight for basketball. In my team pictures I look like a toothpick in between two salt shakers. Maybe the biggest reason I run in college instead of playing basketball is that I'm just not strong enough to play small forward competitively. I finally started gaining a little weight in college, but it was too late. This isn't to say that the reverse problem is even 1/10th as bad, I just know it's out there. The only real harmful effects I've seen of it is steroid use. But steroid use, while bad, isn't nearly as bad as anorexia or bulimia.

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Hip-Hop QOTW:

"Yeah, where I'ma start it at, look I'ma part of that
Downtown Philly where it's realer than a heart attack
It wasn't really that ill until the start of crack
Now it's a body caught every night on the Almanac"

"Game Theory"
The Roots

Quote (gozaru~ @ 25th February 2004 13:05)

at stages of life past high school, like i said in chat, only a tom cruise-looking guy is going to stand for nothing less than a penelope-looking girl. now, if you're a girl who considers yourself ugly and you're mad because tom won't have you, then perhaps YOU have the double standard...why not go for a guy who isn't an adonis?

I don't think it has to do with the girl wanting a guy like Tom so bad. Could be. But I don't think so. IMO, it has more to do with just self-esteem. Yes, I know people should look beyond their own physical appearance in the mirror, but when you think about how superficial our society and its people are (even after high school), then, well, it's rough. I'm in no way saying I'm not apart of it; I'm probably just as bad as the rest of them, but people just want to be liked I think, plain and simple. And so if they are to be liked by MOST people, they must fit in, by being beautiful, slim, etc. Least that's what I think.

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SPEKKIO: "GRRR...That was most embarrassing!"