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Post all you want about how Machiavelli says this and that about human nature, but that really does not deal with the core issue here. What Machiavelli wrote in "The Prince" really isn't pertinent here as those who wrote the script to FFVI did not necessarily have to agree with him.

Now, according to the FFVI script / NPC conversations, it is said that Kefka snapped after the infusion. So, according to what is said in the game, one can easily say that Kefka changed dramatically after the magitek infusion.

P.S. I am not disagreeing personally with Machiavelli as I personally agree with the whole "innately evil" depiction of the human race. However, this game is NOT life. Thus, you have to look at it more as a drama or novel... whatever the author wanted to argue / stress about human nature is correct within the game.

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Je ne t'aime plus,
Mon amour...

Je ne t'aime plus,
Tous les jours...

Evil is a learned experience.

I'd have to say that Kefka was just about to become the supreme teacher.

Sure it's true that power corrupts, et cetera, but it's also true that power is highly sought after by the corruptible.

If he wasn't evil before the magitek infusion, he was like one of those weird satanist kids that pets his cat when he gets home. He *wanted* to be evil, he had the potential, but he just didn't have the power to be evil and get away with it.

Quote (gozaru~ @ 9th February 2004 15:51)

who would *promote* someone for going crazy?

Depends on what kind of crazy...

I don't think Kefka was necessarily evil, but he definitely had a mean streak. After all, if he was working for the Empire, he must have been cruel to some extent, and even if he wasn't born that way, it's very easy to learn cruelty. Kefka was probably a manipulative bastard at the very least, the sort of person who liked to spread dissension and chaos, but subtly. He enjoyed causing pain, both physical and emotional. With the infusion, he now had the power to get more immediate and gratifying results in a wider variety of ways.

Now, here's another thought, brought on by my recent exposure to the inner workings of the Marvel Universe. Consider The Hulk, She-Hulk, Leonard Samson, and The Leader. They're all gamma mutates. Now, with gamma mutates, the catch phrase is "what you see is what you get." The gamma irradiation causes the recipient to become, in effect, a manifestation of their inner selves. Bruce Banner, due to his troubled childhood, is a severely messed-up individual, full of pent-up rage and frustration. That's what The Hulk is: an outward projection of this inner turmoil. Jennifer Walters, likewise, is outwardly shy and retiring, but inside there's a strong, confident, sensual person just waiting to get out--and she does, in the form of She-Hulk.

What if, then, the Magicite infusion acted like the gamma infusion? It would make sense, if what I said about Kefka is true. Kefka's capacity for cruelty was greatly amplified, and the fact that the process was flawed at the time drove him insane as well, which didn't help matters any. Any takers?

Nice theory. Syndarr. it supports my Kefka was initially evil theory. Uwehehehehe

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

I just got thinking about the fact that his sanity is mentioned at all. If he were crazy beforehand, it wouldn't have been mentioned. So we know he at least wasn't crazy. Perhaps he was evil in a more plotting/scheming way? Obviously he had something to do with the collection of espers and magicite because he was infused at some point.

That actually just got me thinking again. Leo and Celes didn't like the war, but they didn't seem have a problem with taking magic from espers. Perhaps Gestahl's original purpose was simply to get magic, but it turned into a big power-hungry thing. Maybe it all started after Kefka 'snapped'. Then, being Gestahl's right-hand man, he convinced him to get more and more espers to become the most powerful man in the world. Then the evil craziness caused him to betray his ruler.

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--sbq92 <><

Quote (sbq92 @ 10th February 2004 12:37)

Leo and Celes didn't like the war, but they didn't seem have a problem with taking magic from espers.

LEO REFUSED INFUSION

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

One thing you have to consider:

Kefka VOLUNTEERED to be infused with Magitek. Well, it does not say that anywhere in the game, but the likelihood is great. He sought out the infusion, and why would anyone willingly allow themselves to be infused with magic? So they can be more powerful. He started out ambitious and powerhungry. Does that mean he was powerMAD? no, but even though he may not have started off sadistic, he certainly wanted to have leet skillz. the faults in the untested magical infusion process combined with the new capability to cause devastation are probably what sent him over the edge.

Celes, too, I think. Don't forget that she was also a general of Gestahl, and in the game, Cid says that she has done truly terrible things. Someone also says, though I can't remember who, that she was in charge of the attack and destruction of the town of Miranda. she comes to her senses, though, probably due to Cid's influence.

IMHO, Kefka was a bad apple prior to the infusion, yes. The power just made him more crazy and sadistic.

If they worked in a back story I think we would see Kefka volunteer to be the first MagiTek infusee because he is ambitious to rise to power.

Kefka.. He is an oprotunist. He stuck w/ the Gestahl until they got to the statues and just killed Gestahl off. I do not think the infusion process had anything to do w/ Kefka being evil, if he volenteered or not. It doesn't talk much about anyone's parents except Terra's and Edgar/Sabin... and kinda of an idea of Relms. So here is my idea.


Kefka & Celes were both ophans. They were both taken and infused w/ magitek. Cid was aslo to take care of Celes since she was younger than Kefka. Kefka at this point knew only greed and how to take care of himself and reach his goals. Kefka aslo knowing no love and never having anyone to care for him.. he just wanted people to suffer. Gestahl gave him the means.. but when it came time and Kefka was tired of taking orders, well he offed Gestahl.

I know I know it's starting to become more of a fan fiction now. However, that's my idea..for now

Quote (graveyardstars @ 10th February 2004 13:58)

Kefka VOLUNTEERED to be infused with Magitek. Well, it does not say that anywhere in the game, but the likelihood is great.

Oohkay. It's never mentioned, yet the likely hood it great. Care to explain that lil contradiction for me? It pretty much nullifies your entire argument.

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Arts

Farts

Twarts

I would have to agree with the post that suggested that Kefka was always a rotten apple, but that his magic powers triggered his aggressive madness that is one of his overwhelming characteristics. He was probably a quiet little toady for the Emperor prior to the magic infusion, and the magic powers probably gave him a false sense of power and self importatance, leading him to believe himself to be above all others, even the Emperor (starting to sound like Freud here). As was mentioned, Celes didn't go mad just from the magic infusion itself, and there didn't seem to be any signs that Kefka was given more power initially than she that might have caused any sort of physical mental damage. It's hard to say without anymore background info, and it's times like these when I wish that the creators would have sat down and written a full volume of history on each character for us to refer back to (unrealistic, I know, but a fun idea...) Anyhow, that's my two cents...

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You know me, you just wish you didn't...

"Uwee hee hee! Don't tease the octopus, kids!" -Ultros-

"Don't let the smooth taste fool you..."

While I like Iggy's prototype idea complete with FF9 reference, I think Kefka was probably an evil person to begin with. I don't think that the infusion process would have been the corrupting factor (look at Celes). I think though that the nature vs nuture argument also has a valid point as Gestahl probably had control over Kefka in regards to development.

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"I was using a metaphor. Someone shut him up before I do it with a knife."- Black Mage, 8-bit Theatre

"I found out what zombies are weak against......Point Blank Annihilation"- Black Mage, 8-bit Theatre

"You'd be paranoid too, if everyone was out to get you!"

I think he was always insane and the espers just gave all the more power to terrorize everyone. But hey maybe he was just insane and the espers made him evil. With great power there can also be great corruption.

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- The problem isn't relgion, the problem is religious tolerance -

Someone, I think Cid, said tt something in Kefka's mind snapped on the day of the infusion itself. In other words, the infusion screwed his mind up. I dunno...It's not impossible that Kefka WAS innately evil, but I don't think you can dismiss the option that he was once another General Leo who valued human lives.
As previously mentioned, who would promote someone who's crazy? My guess is either Gesthal didn't see that Kefka had it in him to overthrow Gesthal, or that Kefka was somone who put the empires' interest above himself and accepted infusion even though he might not have wanted it personally. Then everything changed after the infusion.
The danger of greed for power seems to be a central idea of the game, and it's entirely possible to see it in the sense that Gesthal had destroyed a good, kind soul through his mad quest for power. But actually, if you ask me, there isn't enough evidence to support either stand. Perhaps it's a matter best left to the fanfic writers.

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Student of CCS, Grandmaster of Alternative Literature and Musical Passionista at your service!!!

Harry, I believe one of the patrons in the cafe in Vector makes that comment about Kefka...strangely, in all the times I've played the game, I never spent any time searching the shops or cafes...I assumed it would lead to trouble...so I missed out on that tidbit. I always assumed Kefka was a nut, but that little bit of explanation shed some new light on it for me...8)

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You know me, you just wish you didn't...

"Uwee hee hee! Don't tease the octopus, kids!" -Ultros-

"Don't let the smooth taste fool you..."

What did the guy in Vector say in the bar? lol. I always considered kefka evil for

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Killing Leo

I HATE THAT EVIL CLOWN(or whatever he is)
SO I THINK HES EVIL

This post has been edited by l)arkShadow on 9th March 2004 02:52

Although it's a little off topic, it's been discussed a little bit here: Other people have been infused with magic. One person (in Vecter, I think) talks about how her son(child?) was given the gift of Cure magic. So, Celes and Kefka aren't the only ones. Just thought I'd bring it up.

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--sbq92 <><

Indeed. Whoever mentioned Lord of the Flies has it bang-on. Kefka reminds me a LOT of, oh, what was his name - Roger. The sadistic one, who killed Piggy in the end. In Lord of the Flies, being on the island, with no adults and no law, gave Roger the chance to really cut loose. For Kefka, it was the Magitek infusion. One would probably say something in Roger snapped after the first hunt...the same goes for Kefka. I think he was dark and sadistic before, but not truly evil - not yet.

Gestahl was like Jack - a charismatic leader, able to use the darkness in others to his own end. I think he used Kefka that way, cultivating his evil, but his plan backfired.

That's true...that little kid does cure you...and another Vector resident, I believe also in the cafe, says that all the soldiers in the Magitek Facility can use magic. This must be a misprint of some sort, because the commandos I fought there never used a single spell on me. Of course I was busy putting the smackdown on them, so they might not have gotten a chance...or maybe it was because I brought Celes and constantly had her doing "Runic" (something I never used to do until I found out how effective it really is), and they realized magic would have been fruitless.

I cant' remember the exact quote about Kefka, but it's something to this effect.

"Kefka was Gesthal's first Magitek Knight. After the infusion, something inside him snapped."

I also saw for the first time the comment about General Leo refusing a magic infusion, and about him being a "soldier's soldier" or something to that effect. There's a lot of talk in Vector I'd never seen before, to be honest...

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You know me, you just wish you didn't...

"Uwee hee hee! Don't tease the octopus, kids!" -Ultros-

"Don't let the smooth taste fool you..."

He wasnt evil just sadistic and power hungry...If he were totaly evil he wouldent have been Celes and Leo's peer.

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There is a time and a place for everything, and I am niether

But you have to remember that the empire itself (well, at least Emperor Gestahl) was evil anyways. So it's not that surprising that Gestahl would have kept Kefka, provided that Kefka helped Gestahl in his evil schemes. Which would make Kefka evil as well.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

It was kinda obious that he would be evil. Wonder what inspired him to go INSANE.

Well, he was raised to be evil and power hungry...we've covered that. Then the magic infusion brought the worst out of him, either biologically, or because he realized he'd been given superhuman powers he could abuse. I think the absolute insanity often came from Kefka getting caught up in the moment (though some of the "insanity" appeared to be direct orders of the Emperor, who, while behind the scenes, was certainly very evil himself), and taking opportunities to abuse his power and influence the Emperor had given him.

Kefka's "breaking point", if you will, seemed to be on the F.C. He saw the power of the statues, and realized the potential they had for bestowing absolutely insane amounts of power. When he saw the Emperor wasn't taking advantage of it, he probably saw an opportunity for himself, and since Kefka's one real loyalty or concern for well being was his for himself, he had no qualms about siezing that opportunity no matter who would be destroyed in the process.

I'm a pretty nice, easy going guy, but given that same opportunity, I can't say I'm 100% certain I wouldn't flip out too if I was suddenly given the power to rule the world. Take a guy who's already a few bricks short of a load, give him that same kind of power, and you've got a real whacko/mad man on your hands...

This post has been edited by Majik Monkee on 19th March 2004 01:14

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You know me, you just wish you didn't...

"Uwee hee hee! Don't tease the octopus, kids!" -Ultros-

"Don't let the smooth taste fool you..."