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FF6 is the one and only for me! Although I like the other games a lot too.

The reasons are stated above most of them. Good music, cool characters etc. etc.

Have you noticed one silly thing with FF6, by the way: Everyone is going crazy about Terra's ability to use magic, but at the same time, tons of people do magic spells all around the area. For example: Enemies do different spells such as "Blizzard" and "Shimsham". And Sabin has got his "Aurabolt" and "Fire Dance". And Gau keeps on using different rages, which give him the power of magic all of a sudden. And the Empire is building different equipment that do magic. And then, no one reacts. But as soon as Terra performs a wimpy "Fire" spell on two magitekarmours, everyone goes "OMG! THAT WAS AWESOME! SHE DID MAGIC!!!". Blah!

This post has been edited by Shirrow on 8th September 2003 17:35

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People say I'm a slow learner, but I type fast!

thats because that isnt REAL magic. technically, they're abilities. and the magitech is artificial magic.

This post has been edited by ramza_beoulve on 8th September 2003 23:39

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A hero is somone who steps up when everyone else backs down.

Your greatest adversary hides inside your mirror.

Quote (ramza_beoulve @ 8th September 2003 22:12)

thats because that isnt REAL magic. technically, they're abilities. and the magitech is artificial magic.

So what? They shoot flashy beams of fire all over the place anyway. And what's the difference between fire bursts and fire Sabins? Both people summon particles of the element fire with their own will, and direct it at the enemy. If the spell "Fire" is different from the "Fire Dance" for the FF6 characters, I seriously question their ability to define things.

Really, I've had trouble with this sometimes. Once my cousin came over to my place and I showed him FF6. He thought "Cool game!" and wanted to know the story of the game, so I went on and told him about Kefka and the Empire and their struggle to control Terra and the espers to get a use of magical abilities. He thought "Cool story". Then, while batteling in Narshe in the very first part of the game (Terra and the two soldiers), we meet an enemy that does the spell "Blizzard" on me. And my cousin goes: "Hey! I thought you said that girl was the only one who could do magic!". And what was I supposed to say? I said something like "Well uh, yeah, but that's not real magic, that's the battle engine thing" although I thought it was stupid myself. *Sigh*

Hmmm...I have a feeling that Tiddles will stamp this with the "Off-topic" sign sometime.

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People say I'm a slow learner, but I type fast!

Or I could split it into a new topic, like so. (Since you should've made a new topic to begin with )

Feel free to edit the first post of the topic, which will also allow you to edit the topic title. You could also repost your support of FF6 in the best game poll, if you want. (For the information of confused readers, this topic was split out of that one.)

Quote (Shirrow @ 9th September 2003 15:13)

And what's the difference between fire bursts and fire Sabins? Both people summon particles of the element fire with their own will, and direct it at the enemy. If the spell "Fire" is different from the "Fire Dance" for the FF6 characters, I seriously question their ability to define things.

if fire is an "element" or composed of "particles," i seriously question your ability to define things.

to answer your question, there would seem to be a very obvious difference between the magic "fire" and (specifically, since you brought it up) sabin's abilities. note that sabin's character class is equivalent to the monk class of most other games in the ff series (cf. yang, ffv and fft's monks, salamander). the monk class in ff has always had some kind of "magic" ability/abilities not availible to other characters (store, chakra (=mantra), wave fist, earth slash, blitz, etc.) that most often don't require mp usage. as i'm sure you know, this all ties in with eastern religious philosophy of the power of chi. that, however, is another discussion for another day. the bottom line is, sabin's blitzes (called special techniques in the japanese) are not based on magic, but rather on his personal ability to manipulate his chi (or the universal chi, take your pick). aura bolt could be an blast of concentrated chi energy, air slash (known as vacuum blade in the japanese) is self-explanatory from the japanese name, and fire (phoenix) dance is some other extension of sabin's chi. furthermore, it can be inferred from the storyline of ffvi that anyone, with enough dedication and study, could learn to use the blitz techniques; after all, they are not unique to sabin (v. vargas, duncan), and in fact sabin himself learned the abilities from another. therefore, while his abilities are indeed a force to be reckoned with, they are not the magic of 1000 years past.

you point out that enemies and the empire use magic, and the characters are not amazed by this. apparently, you missed the entire point of the characters' surprise at terra's ability to use magic. although playing the first few hours of the game should answer your questions for you, i will quite generously save you the trouble. yes, the empire has harnessed the power of magic through extensive magitek experimentation. yes, magitek armour can use magical abilities (yes, even many enemies have the inherent ability to use magic, but that's beside the point; magic was lost to humans in the war, but not necessarily beasts). however, you must have forgotten that the empire and all of its soldiers and technology that can use magic are the ENEMIES of our characters (and of the returners). locke and edgar were not amazed at seeing magic. they were amazed at the fact that their new friend and potential ally to the returners could use magic. don't you remember all of the convincing they and banon did to get terra to join their cause (this brings up a part of the plot difficult to explain: how can one magic user possibly matter against a whole army of magic-users and magic technology?)? terra's magic was the lost magic of espers and of the magi 1000 years ago; not just anyone could learn it (barring magicite and esper infusion, which the returners had no access to).

the only "plot hole" that relates to this event is that, while travelling to figaro, you can have terra cast a spell, and locke is unfazed -- then he throws a fit when he sees terra cast fire at the magitek armour.

Quote (gozaru~ @ 9th September 2003 21:40)

if fire is an "element" or composed of "particles," i seriously question your ability to define things.

el·e·ment n.

5 One of four substances, earth, air, fire, or water, formerly regarded as a fundamental constituent of the universe.

Also, to not derail the thread, I also found it strange that enemies and normal characters could use skills that were so much like magic that it would be hard to tell the difference. Obviously Locke and Edgar hadn't seen much of it, or they wouldn't have been so surprised, yet they can tell the difference between that and say, Sabin's Air Blade (had he access to it upon gaining him at Mt. Koltz or something like that). It was just a weird plot hole. But I suppose it surprised them that someone they'd been travelling with had access to it, and not someone who had been using it unnaturally, such as the magitek knights they were fighting at the time.

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

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el·e·ment  n.

5  One of four substances, earth, air, fire, or water, formerly regarded as a fundamental constituent of the universe.

oh, i'm sorry, i didn't realise we had regressed to the theories of several hundred years b.c. forgive me.

if you had read the original post, it was quite clear he was referring to particle nature (i.e., atomic fire), which hasn't been a viable theory since plato's cosmology.

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I also found it strange that enemies and normal characters could use skills that were so much like magic that it would be hard to tell the difference. 

who are you to say that it would be hard to tell the difference? poorly CG'ed sprites of days past cannot convey many, many things -- perhaps the feeling of magic is different, for instance. then again, perhaps with the recent reintroduction of magic, our heroes, as returners and therefore enemies to the forces who rediscovered magic, had been subjected to magic in the past, and as such, knew the distinction between magic and a skill. of course, all of that put beside, you must have overlooked the fact that magic must be chanted, unlike sabin's skills and et cetera. it follows that terra must have chanted some sort of incantation to cast fire. i would assume that locke and edgar heard the incantation. regardless of the reason, they clearly knew that terra's "fire" was magic, and not some simple skill.

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But I suppose it surprised them that someone they'd been travelling with had access to it, and not someone who had been using it unnaturally, such as the magitek knights they were fighting at the time.

either you didn't bother to read my post, or you have an astounding lack of reading comprehension. it was not a plot hole at all; it was very much intentional. the surprise lay within the fact that here they had a potential ally who could use magic. they knew magitek and kefka and imperial soldiers and whoever else could use magic. that was not a surprise to them.

do you people look for plot holes? really, now...this "plot hole" is in fact an integral part of the plot of the game. how easily we forget that terra was viewed as the returners' light of hope in the empire's pandora's box because she could use magic.

Moderator Edit

Please note that the topic title was my attempt to classify this topic, which was split from another. Noone in the topic itself has specifically called these things plot holes. I have no opinion, I was merely trying to give the topic a title which would somehow indicate its content.
Also: calm down, take some deep breaths, and try making your point without being insulting to everyone else in the process. Can you manage that? -Tiddles

responce to moderator edit:

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It was just a weird plot hole.

This post has been edited by gozaru~ on 10th September 2003 16:54

I thought it was sort of funny when I used Terra to use her magic capabilities and Locke didn't freak out until he was with Edgar..Rofl..but on another note Gozaru you're right about FFVI "Magic Debate"

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A warrior takes sword in hand,
clasping a gem to his heart...
Engraving vanishing memories
into the sword, He places finely
honed skills into the stone.
Spoken from the sword, handed
down from the stone,
Now the story can be told...

I wasn't regressing to any ptolemaic theories or anything like that, it's pretty well-known that in most video games (at least most RPGs -- including most if not all of the Final Fantasy series), things of Fire, Earth, Water, and Wind are classified as elements. Granted, Final Fantasy took them as their own and added some more, but that doesn't mean that our definition of element is the same one in the final fantasy series.

And since I know you're going to bring particle nature back into the argument, I'm going to go ahead and tell you to look up particle in the dictionary as well and realize that it can be used in more than one instance.

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who are you to say that it would be hard to tell the difference? poorly CG'ed sprites of days past cannot convey many, many things -- perhaps the feeling of magic is different, for instance. then again, perhaps with the recent reintroduction of magic, our heroes, as returners and therefore enemies to the forces who rediscovered magic, had been subjected to magic in the past, and as such, knew the distinction between magic and a skill. of course, all of that put beside, you must have overlooked the fact that magic must be chanted, unlike sabin's skills and et cetera.

Shirrow brought up Fire Dance earlier, and if I remember correctly, Sabin had to chant in order to move his Fire Dance spell across the screen (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ngettlin/firedance.jpg - just tested it, he does chant it across), so who's saying that's not magical by nature? Heck, even the Scorpions that you fight in Figaro Desert allow Gau to use Poison, so they must have that magical power somewhere. It's useless to say that I'm the one who can't tell the difference when every part of your argument in that paragraph was based on theory of the game. You said it yourself, the sprites could not convey many things. All I know is that if I go outside and get hit by a Fire Dance or a Fire 2, I'm going to freak out because someone is using a magic-like ability on me, whether it's true magic or not. Yes, you're right that Terra is the returner's light blah blah blah now they have magic straight from the source, so maybe in that regard she will give them more hope, but it just seems like they're getting pretty hyped up over nothing. I mean, nobody freaks out when you get your first four pieces of magicite. They're just kind of like.. "poor Ramuh, well now I'm gonna suck your powers out."

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

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And since I know you're going to bring particle nature back into the argument, I'm going to go ahead and tell you to look up particle in the dictionary as well and realize that it can be used in more than one instance.

note: the following 1/2 of the post is completely off-topic and thus i am spoilering it. read at your own risk.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

and since i am quite sure that you have not taken as many intermediate- and advanced-level physics and bioengineering courses at rice university as i have, i'm going to go ahead and tell you that i know exactly what is and what is not a particle.

there is no discrete particle composition of any fire anywhere in the entire universe (barring the w-p duality of the quanta of light). in other words, whereas you can expect the electromagnetic waves of the "photons" (luxons) of light to behave, in certain ways, as particles at higher frequencies, you're really just seeing the effects of such a high-frequency disturbance in the electromagnetic field (which used to be explained as the lumeniferous aether, which of course we have since disproven since we know that light can be existent in a vacuum), and since we have not yet rationalised our particle-wave theories into a hybrid, a particle of light cannot really be isolated, only detected and demonstrated to exhibit this duality. and all this doesn'tmatter due to the simple fact that fire is not only light, but also a release of free energy. therefore, no, no one anywhere ever in the universe can summon a particle of fire. by the way. you meant to say aristotelian theories. and there were 5 elements: you left out aether.

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Shirrow brought up Fire Dance earlier, and if I remember correctly, Sabin had to chant in order to move his Fire Dance spell across the screen (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ngettlin/firedance.jpg - just tested it, he does chant it across), so who's saying that's not magical by nature?

if sabin is silenced, he can still perform fire dance. it follows thus that it is not a chanted spell and the designers didn't have enough cool sprites to choose from. i'm saying based on that that it isn't magical by nature in the same vein as magic from the war of the magi and doesn't hold the same importance (insert here the exact same thing i've been saying all along).

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Heck, even the Scorpions that you fight in Figaro Desert allow Gau to use Poison, so they must have that magical power somewhere

apparently, only humans lost the ability to use magic as a result of the war of the magi. i'm sure a chrono trigger/cross-esque theory about the will of the planet/nature/espers could be developed here, but let's just leave it at this: humans lost the ability to control magic after the war of the magi. monsters did not. i'm sure locke and edgar as returners and somewhat experienced fighters knew this; the fact remains that terra, who could use magic, unlike any other human not affiliated with the empire that they knew of, was a potential ally.

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It's useless to say that I'm the one who can't tell the difference when every part of your argument in that paragraph was based on theory of the game.

some things can be called "theory;" others are clearly not theoretical in the frame of the game. i take all of my information directly from the script or story of the game. my main points of argument: war of the magi, sabin's learned abilities, returners vs. empire, returners want terra for her ability to use magic, most humans cannot use magic. all of these come straight out of the game and are not theoretical in the frame of the game.

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All I know is that if I go outside and get hit by a Fire Dance or a Fire 2, I'm going to freak out because someone is using a magic-like ability on me, whether it's true magic or not.

you do not live in a world where magic or these special techniques exist (although some would argue to the contrary!). of course it would surprise you. locke and edgar, however, exist in the frame of the game: a world where magic and these techniques do exist. i think we can all agree that it can be inferred from their occupations and membership to the returners that they have been subjected to magic (most likely from the empire, or, of course, from monsters). therefore, they express no shock at seeing something they know exists and have seen before. once again, their shock was not at the magic itself, but at their new potential ally's ability to use it. notice there is a conspicuous absense of people of any ethnicity other than anglo in the frame of ffvi. if they saw a black person, they might think he was an esper, or something. they would be surprised. we are not surprised, because we have been subjected to this.

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Yes, you're right that Terra is the returner's light blah blah blah now they have magic straight from the source, so maybe in that regard she will give them more hope, but it just seems like they're getting pretty hyped up over nothing.

i agree, and i said something quite similar myself: "(this brings up a part of the plot difficult to explain: how can one magic user possibly matter against a whole army of magic-users and magic technology?)." there are certainly plot holes existent in the shopworn plot of ffvi, but don't create them in places where the story follows the events of the game to a "t." (<--- is that correct usage of the expression?)

This post has been edited by gozaru~ on 10th September 2003 17:52

Quote (gozaru~ @ 10th September 2003 10:30)

notice there is a conspicuous absense of people of any ethnicity other than anglo in the frame of ffvi.  if they saw a black person, they might think he was an esper, or something.  they would be surprised.  we are not surprised, because we have been subjected to this.

I have to disagree, there ARE 'black people' in FFVI. Brawler (an enemy) appears to be dark and so is Vargas (enemy boss).



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kame, tortue, tortuga, schildkröte, tartaruga, turtle

"Arthur Dent?"
"Yes."
"Arthur Philip Dent?"
"Yes."
"You're a total knee biter."

Wow, this thread had everything. And now it gets a special lock. I'll take the heat for this one running away.

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me