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FF7 is a sequel to FFX

Posted: 22nd June 2015 06:01

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Yes, you read that right. Final Fantasy VII, is a sequel to Final Fantasy X.

How is that possible, you ask? The games aren't sequels to each other, they just have common themes, right? And FF7 came out way before FFX.

So. I just came across this tonight.

It seems as if it is at least suggested in FFX, and strongly hinted at in FFX-2.

I'm looking into it but I found a discussion form another forum, hope you don't mind I post it here but it is pretty intriguing stuff, coming from Yoshinori Kitase himself.

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/1169/t1138...sible-spoilers/

spoilers and such.

Anyway, I've always thought that FF7 and FFX had a lot of similar themes, and I even recently said in a different thread that if one liked FF7 they should also like FFX. I always thought the games seemed connected in some way after I played through FFX, but knew that none of the main series were related to each other aside form Moogles, Chocobos, Summons and the like.

I stumbled across this searching for who voice acted the part of the adult dinosaur in the Korean film Dino King, because his voice sounds so familiar and I kept thinking Tidus. Apparently, it might be the guy who played Greg Brady in the Brady Bunch sequels, but I searched Tidus's voice actor anyway and in readin briefly about FFX on Wiki, I came across this "theory" that really isn't a theory.

Anyway, I would love to further discuss this and am reading through the link now. Pretty crazy stuff.



I will paraphrase what I know so far:

Apparently, the life-stream and the far-plane are the same thing. In FFX-2 there is a character named Shinra who wants to use the ancient technology from before Sin to harvest the energy from the far-plane but says it's several generations from being a realistic technology, although he admits it couldn't hurt to start ASAP possibly using the Vegnagun's technology to develop his concept.

From there it is explained by various dialogues and Yoshinori Kitase again that 1,000 years into the future, Shinra's descendants used the ancient Spira technology of Airships to travel through space and colonize another planet, the one of FF7, now having the technology to harvest the planet's energy, through the lifestream, and that's how in FF7 there is technology capable of working without Mako.

So basically, descendants of Spira used ancient technology from before Sin to develop new technology to harvest the energy from the far-plane(life-stream) and then used pre-Sin technology to travel through space to colonize another planet (that has a race already fighting it's own battle with their own Sin, Jenova, who's origin may in fact be Spira), to then start a weapons and energy producing economy and build an empire while the old civilization is rendered extinct. Midgar and Shin-Ra corp are born.

Of course, a lot of die hard FF7 peeps are not fond of this and it isn't considered main 'canon' I believe, however, the series' director is very keen on the idea as least as far a a few years back.

Thoughts?


BTW, I also always thought people who loved FF7 and hated FFX were out of their minds, guess I'm not too far off ;p

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Posted: 22nd June 2015 07:46

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It's a fun idea but I think it's a little far fetched. There's never any mention or indication of this in FF7 and that's a huge thing for an entire planet to forget about. If we take a look a Shinra's space program, it's even less advanced than Earth's. The resources and advancement of technology required to colonise another planet would have to be incredible. So we'd be talking a huge technological backward step for the inhabitants of Gaia. I imagine some of the ships that arrived would have been pretty huge, so where are they? Possibly scavenged for parts by Shinra, but someone would have mentioned such an undertaking.

So I do find it hard to believe, but having said all that, if the director is that keen on the idea, it's certainly possible he may try and work it into the FF7 remake somehow, as they will be making quite a few changes anyway.

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Posted: 22nd June 2015 20:43

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Quote (fatman @ 22nd June 2015 02:46)
It's a fun idea but I think it's a little far fetched. 1.)There's never any mention or indication of this in FF7 and that's a huge thing for an entire planet to forget about. 2.)If we take a look a Shinra's space program, it's even less advanced than Earth's. 3.)The resources and advancement of technology required to colonise another planet would have to be incredible. 4.) So we'd be talking a huge technological backward step for the inhabitants of Gaia. I imagine some of the ships that arrived would have been pretty huge, so where are they? Possibly scavenged for parts by Shinra, but 5.) someone would have mentioned such an undertaking.

6.) So I do find it hard to believe, but having said all that, if the director is that keen on the idea, it's certainly possible he may try and work it into the FF7 remake somehow, as they will be making quite a few changes anyway.


1.) FFX was made after FF7, of course there is no mention of it.

2.) Don't see how that has anything to do with it

3.) Spira had the technology before Sin destroyed it, and supposedly a millennium later is when the technology to both travel through space and drain energy from a planet is the common idea behind it. 1,000 years to develop and refine the technology for both is more than enough time.

4.) Well, if you read through that link, the idea is Shinra's descendants are the one's who flew a vessel to Gaia, and it's implied that it was only a single vessel and if they are carrying energy harvesting technology, a large portion of the ship would have been taken up by this with maybe a couple hundred people at most to establish a colony. It's not like the entire planet of Spira would have relocated.

5.) Until the 20th century, people knew almost nothing about ancient civilizations, space exploration, science and nature and evolution. So it really isn't far-fetched that after a small colony advances through several generations to be large enough to build a city the size of midgar, both in scale and population, while only a few descendants of the initial colony remain and control the government that it wouldn't be a huge part of their everyday lives "Oh by the way, it isn't relevant, but a thousand years ago, we supposedly migrated from another planet! And how!". It served no purpose to the story and events of FF7 to have a history lesson on how one small antagonist's ancestors colonized the planet and built Midgar.

6.) Perhaps he will work it in, though I doubt it's much more than a slight reference in a small line of dialogue. But he isn't just trolling, he legitimately acknowledges that it's what he accepts as canon.

I think that FF7 purists will hate the idea, even if the director comes out and says that yes it is 100% true that Spira and Gaia are connected, or the worlds of FF7 and FFX are.

I personally think it seems plausible. FF7 didn't have to mention anything about it, since FFX/FFX-2 were made later as a 'prequel' of sorts. I think, especially after a millennia, an advanced society, that is Xenophobic and isolationist (Midgar) could very well be jaded on their ancestry. Most of it's inhabitants are poor, uneducated and living in slums. Even the one's who aren't are living a more indulgent life, and a central theme in FF7 is just how much the people of the world have become disconnected from the planet, how corrupt the society is. Think of Sodom and Gomorrah as examples that parallel Midgar.

For example, do you think say, American President George Bush really knows his entire family lineage and can trace back 1,000 years and both describe family members and how they got to where they are? I'm sure his common belief is in God, and I don't want to start a religious debate, but obviously God didn't create the Earth 10,000 years ago and create man. Common belief, such as the Big Bang, as to the creation of our universe is only a century old as it is.

And not that I believe in it, but isn't there an entire circle of science that truly believes that some kind of Alien contact has been made with Earth? That perhaps we come from them, or they assisted empires such as Egypt in enslaving the vast majority of society?

Any colony that came from Spira would have very limited supplies to take with them, its not like they moved their entire planet there. And record keeping didn't seem to be their strong point as it was, so it really isn't far-fetched to believe that they didn't record their entire history, especially if their intentions were to harvest a planet's energy and build a military, and I might add that most technology now is developed hand in hand with the military, and military factions really aren't purveyors of the truth now, are they?

I think it is a very realistic idea, though am not 100% sold on it. I just think it makes for interesting discussion. But I'm more inclined to accept it as so.

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Posted: 23rd June 2015 01:18

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Now to blow a glaring hole in this.
A thousand years ago, Jenova came, and the Ancients nearly went extinct.
And this was important enough to be remembered, but "by the way, we migrated from space!" wasn't? Nope.
And besides that, FFVII doesn't have the technology that it would take for this to be true. They'd have the "space travel" stuff around someplace.

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Posted: 23rd June 2015 11:07

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Quote (Ker @ 22nd June 2015 20:18)
Now to blow a glaring hole in this.
A thousand years ago, Jenova came, and the Ancients nearly went extinct.
And this was important enough to be remembered, but "by the way, we migrated from space!" wasn't? Nope.
And besides that, FFVII doesn't have the technology that it would take for this to be true. They'd have the "space travel" stuff around someplace.

Uh yeah, "space travel" stuff was laying around, in Rocket Town.

But anyway, like I said, space travel is not easy and most likely 1 vessel with mako harvesting technology would have been the most anyone could have brought.

You need raw materials to go any further with it which takes quie a long time to harvest, let alone establish a mining facility to extract metal ores from the ground.

The Ancients were all but extinct by the start of FF7, Jenova was their problem, not Shinra's and with a past that includes Sin, Jenova wouldn't really be all that big of news to them, either way and they seemed more interested in studying Jenova's DNA. I wonder why that is?

I don't understand how people assume you just take the entirety of another planet and plop it in the middle of another?

Good god, I hope this isn't how people see the human race as being able to colonize another planet? There would literally be only a handful of people, the rest of the resources go to life support and technology to upstart the colony. The rest of us left behind. Good luck!

Go watch Interstallar for a good idea of how it would go.

And funny how 1,000 years ago is when Jenova came and when Sin was defeated? Ho-ho!

Look at the Moon landings for further example. The moon landings were half a century ago and space shuttles aren't exactly lying around now are they? And no one has been back since. The most we've been able to do is send probes onto asteroids and a couple to another planet's surface.

I knew FF7 fanboys would have a cow over this, lol.



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Posted: 23rd June 2015 16:00

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I think it's a fun idea, and linking different Final Fantasy worlds in various ways, it makes sense to me, why not? As long as they don't go overboard of course. I just don't feel the FF7 universe in its current form lends itself particularly well to this colonisation idea, as there are no clues at all (that I can think of) that such a thing may have happened. But if they wish to revise that in their update, I'm more than happy, it could make things more interesting.

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Posted: 23rd June 2015 17:36

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Quote (Dynamic Threads @ 23rd June 2015 04:07)

Uh yeah, "space travel" stuff was laying around, in Rocket Town.

But anyway, like I said, space travel is not easy and most likely 1 vessel with mako harvesting technology would have been the most anyone could have brought.

You need raw materials to go any further with it which takes quie a long time to harvest, let alone establish a mining facility to extract metal ores from the ground.

The Ancients were all but extinct by the start of FF7, Jenova was their problem, not Shinra's and with a past that includes Sin, Jenova wouldn't really be all that big of news to them, either way and they seemed more interested in studying Jenova's DNA. I wonder why that is?

I don't understand how people assume you just take the entirety of another planet and plop it in the middle of another?

Good god, I hope this isn't how people see the human race as being able to colonize another planet? There would literally be only a handful of people, the rest of the resources go to life support and technology to upstart the colony. The rest of us left behind. Good luck!

Go watch Interstallar for a good idea of how it would go.

And funny how 1,000 years ago is when Jenova came and when Sin was defeated? Ho-ho!

Look at the Moon landings for further example. The moon landings were half a century ago and space shuttles aren't exactly lying around now are they? And no one has been back since. The most we've been able to do is send probes onto asteroids and a couple to another planet's surface.

I knew FF7 fanboys would have a cow over this, lol


*Clears throat* 1. Uh, I don't know, maybe because they thought it was an Ancient? And wanted it to take them to the Promised Land through Sephiroth?
2. Nobody seems to be assuming that, I sure as hell didn't say it.
3. FFVII isn't my favorite by far, but I know this theory is less plausible than Kefka being Marche Raidiju.
All in all, this theory has little merit.
Oh. And by the way? NASA does still have their shuttles.

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Posted: 23rd June 2015 18:47

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Quote (fatman @ 23rd June 2015 11:00)
I think it's a fun idea, and linking different Final Fantasy worlds in various ways, it makes sense to me, why not? As long as they don't go overboard of course. I just don't feel the FF7 universe in its current form lends itself particularly well to this colonisation idea, as there are no clues at all (that I can think of) that such a thing may have happened. But if they wish to revise that in their update, I'm more than happy, it could make things more interesting.

Are there any clues that Earth was colonized? Just sayin'. Because there aren't, and it isn't such a far-fetched idea.

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Posted: 23rd June 2015 19:07

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Quote (Ker @ 23rd June 2015 12:36)


*Clears throat* 1. Uh, I don't know, maybe because they thought it was an Ancient? And wanted it to take them to the Promised Land through Sephiroth?
2. Nobody seems to be assuming that, I sure as hell didn't say it.
3. FFVII isn't my favorite by far, but I know this theory is less plausible than Kefka being Marche Raidiju.
All in all, this theory has little merit.
Oh. And by the way? NASA does still have their shuttles.



Well, what you said in your first post is indicative of what you imagine space travel to be. And NASA is basically defunct, if you weren't aware. The space shuttles aren't just "laying around".

It isn't a theory, BTW. If you had clicked the link in my initial post, there is a series of quotes from not only FFX and FFX-2, but the director of the series, as well as a couple other major people involved with both games. I suggest you go read it, because this isn't a theory. It literally is coming from the director's mouth.

But regardless, I thought it was a fun idea to discuss. You seem kind of bent out of shape over it : P


I also want to point out that most history books are full of falsies, fabrications and propaganda. Most of what Americans learn in grade school is complete and utter trite and even in higher education, you are hard pressed to find accurate documents on history. Couple that with the hundreds of languages that humans have spoken and recorded, the technology used to record history (and History in itself is subject to manipulation by a society to edit the bad parts and glorify the good parts) and our book-keeping skills and our tendency to hoard and hide factual documents in places like monasteries during medieval Europe and we have a very flaky knowledge of history. Not to mention places such as the library of Alexandria, that held thousands of ancient documents that recorded circumnavigation stories, records of civilization BCE, translations of languages, advanced mathematics and astronomy, being burned to the ground and you have a massive amount of human history forever lost to us, perhaps documents of our origins or possible lost civilizations with technological advancement.

Are you aware that an Ottoman Cartographer named Piri Reis compiled a map in the 16th century (1500s) that detailed the coasts of Africa, South America and ANTARCTICA? And that Antarctica is described as being sub-tropical and full of plant-life and wildlife not even 1000 years ago? Probably not. And most people would vehemently deny this because of what has been pounded into their brains by our propaganda fueled governments for hundreds of years.


EDIT: Furthermore, the Dark Ages alone (mainly the oppressive reign of Christianity) destroyed most science and technology since it was a threat to it's institution. The Arabs were sailing across oceans in about 600 ACE, terribly advanced in Mathematics and even the Greeks are documented in BCE times to have experimented with technology that produced electrostimulation to power clocks and even cannons.

This post has been edited by Dynamic Threads on 23rd June 2015 19:17

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Posted: 23rd June 2015 20:55

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Quote (Dynamic Threads @ 23rd June 2015 19:07)
Are you aware that an Ottoman Cartographer named Piri Reis compiled a map in the 16th century (1500s) that detailed the coasts of Africa, South America and ANTARCTICA? And that Antarctica is described as being sub-tropical and full of plant-life and wildlife not even 1000 years ago? Probably not. And most people would vehemently deny this because of what has been pounded into their brains by our propaganda fueled governments for hundreds of years.

That same map also detailed islands that didn't exist.
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Posted: 23rd June 2015 23:21

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Ok, I'm gonna wade in here, but I'm also gonna try and consolidate a few facts from opinions. I'm also going to start off by saying that I love both FFX and FFVII, and that in theory I have no issues with a potential link.

Now, DT is right in that this does appear to be from the mouths of Kitase and Nojima, so it's potentially canon. It's certainly far more than a fan theory. These interviews have been published in Ultimania, which are largely viewed by fans as expansions of canon. It's also an incontrovertible fact that there are no mentions of this in VII, simply because of chronology. This idea does not appear to have existed during VII's creation. If it is canon, it has been retconned. As such, arguments that "because it's not mentioned in VII it must be wrong" simply can't fly.

HOWEVER, I've read the transcripts DT linked, and (assuming accurate translations, which I simply have no way of verifying) it is not as categoric as DT claims - it really does initially appear to be more a case that Nojima and Kitase are discussing the fact that the two games consider the same concepts, and have a thematic link as much as any implication of a literal one. The subsequent discussions show themselves to clearly be Nojima's personal view on what he would like the story to be - that, whilst significant, is not quite the same as it actually BEING the story. Whether the FFVII remake will introduce connections that weren't previously there and therefore make it irrefutable canon, only time will tell.

One thing that is open to discussion is whether the possiblity fits with the two games as they currently exist. Yes, it certainly appears to be possible that Shinra's descendants are able to fly off and colonise another planet. yes, it is certainly possible that they harness the ability to extract energy from the farplane, and that to all intents the farplane is synonymous with the lifestream. From the perspective of whether this concept can fit with FFX, I can find no real arguments against it - partly because the X/X-2 games were obviously designed with the idea in mind.

I do find it difficult to reconcile with VII, however. Yes, the colony may only have been one ship. Yes, it may be lost or missing, or used for parts. Yes, it's even possible that Gaia's history is similar to ours, that civilisation had a dark age, and that ancestral technological advances were lost for whatever reason, setting civilisation back centuries. Assuming for the sake of the discussion that prehistoric remnants/evidence of some colony ship can be retconned into a VII remake, there are some aspects that I find harder to resolve:

1. Bugenhagen. He's established as a mystic with almost universal knowledge of Gaia. For this connection to ring true, he'll have to know about it. This will have to be retconned in a potentially big way.

2. The Cetra race and its mythology is well-established in VII. To insert a new colonisation would require a major retcon here, unless we're saying the colonisation occurred after the Cetra and Jenova wiped each other out (I'm summarising there) - which isn't impossible.

3. I don't think it's possible that Jenova came from Spira. The stories surrounding Jenova are too rooted by now. The concept of Jenova as a Gaia-version Sin is interesting; but what we know about Jenova doesn't really match up with what we know about SIn, beyond the whole planetary destruction element. I think it's just too unwieldy to try and shoe-horn the two together properly.

4.If the dark ages argument is used for why Gaia doesn't show elements of the advanced technology/space travel etc that Shinra's descendants arrived on Gaia with, then that must also carry with it the assumption that the dark ages wiped out the knowledge of Mako extraction. This undermines the central tenet of the theory that Shin-Ra and its activities are a direct result of Shinra. Either the civilisation of Gaia would retain both knowledges, or it would lose both and have to learn them all over again. Any alternative is just too implausible to have an audience accept.

5. Visual similarities and thematic similarities between the two games are easy to infer and reinforce, as they are in different ways with any other FF game. But it's dangerous to conflate these subjective similarities with a genuine connection when they could simply be the inevitable result of two different but similar games being borne from the same creative minds.

6. For the connection to be able to work, I think the timeline needs a little work. 1000 years after X, Shinra's descendants may well set off into space, but we would then need sufficient time to pass from their arrival on Gaia until the events of VII in order to allow the entire planet to forget/become unaware of the past. I don't think this necessary timeframe fits with the established timeline of VII in regards to the Cetra/Jenova/everybody else.



That's my two-penneth. Also, while I'm here - DT, you do seem to be deliberately trying to pick a fight with 'VII fanboys' here, and even orchestrating one when they don't quite rise to it. Your approach to the conversation is rather evangelical; just because you like this position and believe it to be true, doesn't mean it can't have weaknesses. Your argument is not 100% foolproof. Be careful not to fall into the trap of deeming anybody who disagrees with you as wrong simply because you've managed to develop a fully-plausible version in your head. It's an arrogance which comes from being adamant in your perspective, and I'm often guilty of it! Hell, your latest post is sounding dangerously like a conspiracy theorist - I'm getting worried I should have a tin-foil hat on.

This post has been edited by Stiltzkin on 23rd June 2015 23:22

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Posted: 24th June 2015 00:18

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Quote (Stiltzkin @ 23rd June 2015 18:21)
Ok, I'm gonna wade in here, but I'm also gonna try and consolidate a few facts from opinions. I'm also going to start off by saying that I love both FFX and FFVII, and that in theory I have no issues with a potential link.

Now, DT is right in that this does appear to be from the mouths of Kitase and Nojima, so it's potentially canon. It's certainly far more than a fan theory. These interviews have been published in Ultimania, which are largely viewed by fans as expansions of canon. It's also an incontrovertible fact that there are no mentions of this in VII, simply because of chronology. This idea does not appear to have existed during VII's creation. If it is canon, it has been retconned. As such, arguments that "because it's not mentioned in VII it must be wrong" simply can't fly.

HOWEVER, I've read the transcripts DT linked, and (assuming accurate translations, which I simply have no way of verifying) it is not as categoric as DT claims - it really does initially appear to be more a case that Nojima and Kitase are discussing the fact that the two games consider the same concepts, and have a thematic link as much as any implication of a literal one. The subsequent discussions show themselves to clearly be Nojima's personal view on what he would like the story to be - that, whilst significant, is not quite the same as it actually BEING the story. Whether the FFVII remake will introduce connections that weren't previously there and therefore make it irrefutable canon, only time will tell.

One thing that is open to discussion is whether the possiblity fits with the two games as they currently exist. Yes, it certainly appears to be possible that Shinra's descendants are able to fly off and colonise another planet. yes, it is certainly possible that they harness the ability to extract energy from the farplane, and that to all intents the farplane is synonymous with the lifestream. From the perspective of whether this concept can fit with FFX, I can find no real arguments against it - partly because the X/X-2 games were obviously designed with the idea in mind.

I do find it difficult to reconcile with VII, however. Yes, the colony may only have been one ship. Yes, it may be lost or missing, or used for parts. Yes, it's even possible that Gaia's history is similar to ours, that civilisation had a dark age, and that ancestral technological advances were lost for whatever reason, setting civilisation back centuries. Assuming for the sake of the discussion that prehistoric remnants/evidence of some colony ship can be retconned into a VII remake, there are some aspects that I find harder to resolve:

1. Bugenhagen. He's established as a mystic with almost universal knowledge of Gaia. For this connection to ring true, he'll have to know about it. This will have to be retconned in a potentially big way.

2. The Cetra race and its mythology is well-established in VII. To insert a new colonisation would require a major retcon here, unless we're saying the colonisation occurred after the Cetra and Jenova wiped each other out (I'm summarising there) - which isn't impossible.

3. I don't think it's possible that Jenova came from Spira. The stories surrounding Jenova are too rooted by now. The concept of Jenova as a Gaia-version Sin is interesting; but what we know about Jenova doesn't really match up with what we know about SIn, beyond the whole planetary destruction element. I think it's just too unwieldy to try and shoe-horn the two together properly.

4.If the dark ages argument is used for why Gaia doesn't show elements of the advanced technology/space travel etc that Shinra's descendants arrived on Gaia with, then that must also carry with it the assumption that the dark ages wiped out the knowledge of Mako extraction. This undermines the central tenet of the theory that Shin-Ra and its activities are a direct result of Shinra. Either the civilisation of Gaia would retain both knowledges, or it would lose both and have to learn them all over again. Any alternative is just too implausible to have an audience accept.

5. Visual similarities and thematic similarities between the two games are easy to infer and reinforce, as they are in different ways with any other FF game. But it's dangerous to conflate these subjective similarities with a genuine connection when they could simply be the inevitable result of two different but similar games being borne from the same creative minds.

6. For the connection to be able to work, I think the timeline needs a little work. 1000 years after X, Shinra's descendants may well set off into space, but we would then need sufficient time to pass from their arrival on Gaia until the events of VII in order to allow the entire planet to forget/become unaware of the past. I don't think this necessary timeframe fits with the established timeline of VII in regards to the Cetra/Jenova/everybody else.



That's my two-penneth. Also, while I'm here - DT, you do seem to be deliberately trying to pick a fight with 'VII fanboys' here, and even orchestrating one when they don't quite rise to it. Your approach to the conversation is rather evangelical; just because you like this position and believe it to be true, doesn't mean it can't have weaknesses. Your argument is not 100% foolproof. Be careful not to fall into the trap of deeming anybody who disagrees with you as wrong simply because you've managed to develop a fully-plausible version in your head. It's an arrogance which comes from being adamant in your perspective, and I'm often guilty of it! Hell, your latest post is sounding dangerously like a conspiracy theorist - I'm getting worried I should have a tin-foil hat on.



Nice reply!

I admit, I like to push FF7 fans' buttons, but the same could be said for their unrelenting love of the game. They often, and usually always, compare it to FFVIII especially, for example and bad mouth that game like a pedophile uncle at a family reunion. But the biased love of the game is really what grinds my gears. It simply is not the best in the series, and I'm not even sure it is in the top 3, unless you count the impact it has and still does have on the gaming community. It is perhaps the most influential RPG of all time, in that it made the genre mainstream, set a standard and raised the bar. I'm not denying FF7's impact, but as I have said before, the game has simply not aged well at all. Not it's themes, it's epilogue or it's mechanics. Of course, the remake could very well end up being fantastic, and if they completely overhaul the dialogue, add voice acting (though, I wouldn't hate there not being voiceovers), fine-tune the battle system and flesh out the story, it could very well solidify itself as the best in the series.

And I like to engage in the discussion. Anyone who so strongly holds onto one side of a debate, or vehemently denies another (such as Religion vs. Science or Creationists vs. Evolutionists) is inherently wrong in their opinion, IMO, because they fail to acknowledge the idea that the other might be right, plain and simple as well as not taking in to consideration their philosophies on a certain idea and applying it to their own to better develop a proper idea.

I don't consider FFX/FFX-2 to be LITERALLY connected as is suggested, I just find it to be incredibly interesting and enjoy the debate it opens up. And anyone who tries to end an argument by writing 5 lines and exclaiming "BOOYAH!" is going to grab the bull by the horns, proverbially, since I accept that as a challenge, knowing full well when thought is or is not put into a proper response/argument. That's not to say shorter isn't sometimes sweeter, but substance is required.

I'd say that so far, your mention of Bugenhagen as an (almost) all-knowing shaman is the most solid argument against the two being directly related. Surely he would know of this, yet mystics are often just as biased as priests, no?

And I'm not telling anyone they are wrong but if someone is going to come in and try to end the discussion without actually developing an argument, well, they better expect a thorough response questioning what they've said.

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Posted: 24th June 2015 00:22

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Quote (Cefca @ 23rd June 2015 15:55)
Quote (Dynamic Threads @ 23rd June 2015 19:07)
Are you aware that an Ottoman Cartographer named Piri Reis compiled a map in the 16th century (1500s) that detailed the coasts of Africa, South America and ANTARCTICA? And that Antarctica is described as being sub-tropical and full of plant-life and wildlife not even 1000 years ago? Probably not. And most people would vehemently deny this because of what has been pounded into their brains by our propaganda fueled governments for hundreds of years.

That same map also detailed islands that didn't exist.

Sure and that isn't the only inconsistency with it. But islands disappear and appear because of earthquakes, volcanic activity and plate tectonics all the time and these mysterious islands aren't as alarming as the claims that Antarctica was supposedly subtropical as recently as 1,500 years ago.

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Post #209258
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Posted: 24th June 2015 01:20

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Well no, I meant islands that never existed.
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Posted: 24th June 2015 04:41

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Quote (Cefca @ 23rd June 2015 20:20)
Well no, I meant islands that never existed.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but how can one be sure? I'm trying to look up what you mean now, I'm not sure if I understand your context. Are you saying it blatantly fabricated the existence of islands?

I think its a pretty interesting, either way.


EDIT: Okay I'm finding some more info on this. From what I can gather, it depicts an island, a rather large one at that, somewhere near or in the Bermuda triangle. From what I'm reading, it it theorized that the Bahama Bank, which is part of the archipelago, was slowly sinking (or sea levels slowly rising) enough that within a course of 500 years, the initial recordings of its coasts and existence were accurate and it is not entirely far-fetched to believe that a land slightly above sea level sank 20 feet over the course of those 500 years, which would be about a CM a year.

FURTHER EDIT: Okay I see what you mean now. That a possible fabrication of the actual size of lands and the combining of islands from Asia, where the first new world explorers thought they were sailing to, are the culprits. All politically motivated, of course. However, there still stands the theory that at least one of the large islands actually was there at some point but its surface is now only a couple of meters below sea level.

ALSO: I understand that the map has polarizing views on it's accuracy and it supposedly only depicts a curved South America, not Antarctica, coastline.

Fun stuff.

This post has been edited by Dynamic Threads on 24th June 2015 05:09

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Post #209263
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Posted: 24th June 2015 13:26

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OK, guys, the whole map conversation here. Started out as esoteric knowledge to prove... something about political propaganda and how it might fit into a fictional universe, I guess? Now it's several posts that are not at all on topic. Interesting discussion, just not really for this thread.

On topic myself, I do remember hearing about this a few years ago. Looks like that thread in the OP is from 2008, which might be when I heard of it? I know that is around the time I actually played FFX, so possibly. Beyond that, I quite like Stiltz' post, as I would say it would pretty well echo my own thoughts on the matter if I'd been intrigued enough to really think about it. The connection seems thin, or even just pulled from Kitase's general rectal area on a whim or based on just how he imagined things without really doing any real worldbuilding around it. I find it hard to engage too many braincells on the matter. smile.gif

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