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I went back AND replayed FF7 not too long ago...

Posted: 1st June 2015 23:12

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Cactuar
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Let me start off by saying FF7 was NOT my favorite FF. Nor did I ever consider it to be the "best" in the series.

I fell out of playing videogames for a few years when I was in my early 20s. I'd say 21-25. Skateboarding, drinking, etc...

And then Fallout 3 happened. But that is a different story.

Anyway, about a year ago, I went back and tried to play FF7 again. The first time I played it was after falling in love with FFVIII, which actually wasn't my first FF game. That was FFVI, or FFIII here in the states when I played it as a youngster. I never got far into FFVI, but always remembered that opening scene, still one of the best intros in videogame history, IMO.

And a similar theme/memory is why I decided to play FFVII again. I always loved the world map music, probably the best in the series. And then I remembered how charming the soundtrack was, the first town after leaving Midgar so reminiscent of the 8 and 16 bit era games' town music. I've always gone back and played through FFVIII, so I figured why not give FFVII a second chance? Although I didn't think it was as great a game as it is heralded to be, I remember enjoying it thoroughly. The mini-games, the characters (I think I'm the only one who loved Cait Sith), CHOCOBO RACING!

So I got it on the PC, not having access to a PSOne or anything. It started off well, it was honestly better than I remembered. I wondered, maybe I was just too young to have appreciated it, compared it too much to FFVIII having played that first.

But it was precisely AFTER leaving Midgar that my nostalgia started to fade away. Right when that fantastic world music kicked in (in all its glorious MIDI format, being on the PC, although, it made me really appreciate the game in an entirely different way, realizing just how close/similar it is to it's predecessors in tone and feel and gameplay).

FFVII has a great theme. A corrupt government sucking the life, literally, from the planet and using it to power its machines and empire. A group of "terrorists" trying to bring down this oppressive government. In post 9/11 America, it became increasingly relevant and socially conscious. Combine that with a (mostly) great cast of characters, both main and supporting and I can see how everyone is so charmed by the game.

However, I still set the game down feeling...disappointed. I even got the Barret date scene. Which was hilarious.

What really bothered me about the game, was the clunky, yes, clunky combat system and the juvenile script.

First, the combat. Its incredibly boring. 3 characters per battle, who more or less, all handle the same in battle aside from their Limit Breaks. Find new weapon. Find new Materia. Equip Materia to weapons. Etc... Really, Aerith is the only character that works strictly as a healer/mage type and you only get her maybe half the game? The rest its just either cast black magic or attack and wait for Limit Breaks to fill up. Heal as needed. Repeat ad nausea. Almost every battle plays out the same way, and MY GOD, there is a random battle every 2 steps. It is beyond tedious. Unlike the previous games, where you could either assign jobs or characters had set jobs, or the following entries where you could either fully exploit and customize the battle system and characters (FFVIII's junctioning system is extremely under-rated and FFX's Sphere grid is probably the best system in the series) or you again had specific job classes, all your characters in FFVII play like the same class/character. I know some might say I didn't play around with materia combinations the right way but that is also an issue. Your characters become a slave to what Materia, and what weapons you have. The whole battle system just feels cheap and unpolished to me.

Next, the script. Its terrible. It is on par with an 8 year old's reading level. Of course, I realize children are a large demographic for videogames. But the game is rated T after all. And I also understand that not everything has to be James Joyce level of writing, but it is so shallow and juvenile. Characters speak as if they are all 15 years old and the writing isn't exactly superb. I felt very little connection to any of the characters and I don't think it is my age now that I'm older. FFVI had some fantastic dialogue and writing and FFVIII had a very emotional and well written, deep script and actual conversation. FFVII has a bunch of one-liners and no real depth to any dialogue or conversations.

Overall, FFVII is not a terrible game. But I think it hasn't aged well at all. It has a fantastic theme at the beginning, dealing with class, corrupt government, terrorism and the struggle of living in a technologically advanced society, sprinkled with just enough environmental tree-huggery that holds up great and hits very close to home, especially now. It then just repeatedly misses the mark afterward, becoming nothing but lets go after Sephiroth and stop him because he's mad and trumps all other problems in the world because, Meteor and our friend. Cloud starts off as a mysterious, intriguing main character, who by the end of the game has no development and literally isn't even himself, never separating from any of the twists and turns along the way or establishing his own identity, IMO. Neither do any of the other characters develop, in my opinion, despite the game trying hard to make it seem like they do through various plot reveals and events that were skewered at the start and made clear by the end through flashbacks and twists.

FFVII has a wonderful soundtrack, an often funny script and a whimsical feel to it. It has some of the best summons in the game, and some of the hardest boss battles, both optional and story based. The graphics are, to me, perfect. Balancing that fine line between the super-deformed look of the old games and the more realistic look of the newer games. It hits home with nostalgia hard, and that is perhaps its biggest fault in people's unabashed love for the game. It is a wonderful successor to the old games, in spirit. But in execution, it falls flat, especially compared to landmark titles such as FFIV and FFVI, with their deep character development and fantactic story's and worlds. It also lacks the charm of FFV and FFIII-J, with their unique job-class battle systems and light-hearted tones/characters.

It is exactly the criticism FFIX gets that I think FFVII deserves. FFIX often gets labelled as trying too hard to hit the nostalgic notes, though I think it doesn't try much at all, it is simply a charming, enjoyable entry in the series that is full of references and easter eggs. FFVII doesn't seem to try at all to hit any nostalgic notes, but it is its nostalgia that in my mind, is its downfall. It inadvertently carried on the charm and feel of the old games to a new generation of fans who's memories of it being their first experience with the series cloud their judgement of the game's flaws, which are many.

Cloud, as a successor to FFVI's Terra, is a let down, in every single way. Squall often gets labelled as too angsty or shallow, but compared to Cloud, he is one of the deeper main characters in the series, and his character actually develops wonderfully, perhaps better than any of the main characters in the series, over the course of FFVIII, changing from a boyish teenager into a young man who shows great compassion and leadership and while that might not be the most interesting character development for a lot of people, it is still incredibly well done. Cloud left me wanting so much more from his character, both the first time I played FFVII and this most recent playthrough.

I feel as if Cloud didn't round out as a character, that he didn't grow at all. It all came down to some rivalry that he always had with Sephiroth, not about his friends or the planet or its people. It was almost homo-erotic or latently homosexual, if I'm being completely honest, and I don't mean any offense to homosexuals or anyone, for that matter, in saying that. I instead mean to bring comparisons to the latently homosexual society in which I live in, being from the USA. Cloud is basically a Bro, and his obsession with Zach and Sephiroth is very similar to what I witness being from a militaristic, hazing culture that values hyper-masculinity over intelligence and thoughtfulness. I'm writing this last part as I go along, and did not expect to go this direction but in writing this "review" of the game, it has become a very troubling and unnoticed facet of the game that I was never aware of before. Whereas FFVI has strong, independent Female characters who go through intense character arcs, FFVII's female characters are relegated to damsels in distress and weak, sacrificial objects. I don't view Aerith's final appearance in the game as any kind of liberating or character saving event, either. And Cloud's, Sephiroth's and Zach's hyper-masculine, militaristic characters loom over the entire game, now that I think of it. The true love triangle of FFVII (I say that half-joking).

I apologize for the long post, as I did not expect to go so far into what I originally intended to be a critique of one of the most revered games in the series. I hope that I bring up some ideas that people never thought of before and will engage in any discussion based off of what I have elaborated on. I need to put some more thought into the direction this post went, as well, so feel free to elaborate.

This post has been edited by Dynamic Threads on 1st June 2015 23:34

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Post #208905
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Posted: 3rd June 2015 05:36

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Behemoth
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First, I'd love to discuss Fallout 3 at some point. Either one of us should make a topic on that. What an excellent game.

There's a lot to comment on, and I don't know if I can do it all in one post, but I'll start with a few points that I agree with you on.

First, while I don't think that the script is entirely bad, I think that the translation is. It is riddled with spelling errors and clumsy sentences in a way that FFVI is not. It is also a bit too reliant on ellipses, though I can kind of understand that, because the difficulty in getting 3D sprites to animate emotion.

I would also agree that the game's best part overall is probably the beginning in Midgar. That's where the story is at its best there. The corrupt corporate-government is a great theme that is actually ahead of its time.

I also agree that it has been over-hyped and it hasn't aged as well as some other titles.

I would say, however, that I still think it's one of the best games in the series. I place it alongside FFIV often in my mind because both games (being the first games on the SNES and PS1 respectively) bring one word to mind: ambitious. Neither FFIV nor FFVII have the polish of FFVI, and neither do they have perfect execution, but they deserve points for creativity and experimentation. I think there's a lot of effort put into making interesting characters and imaginative locations. They don't always completely pan out, but the effort is worthwhile.

Also, to defend Cloud a bit, one of the things they were trying to do was making him a Link-/Crono-style stand-in for the player, often giving the player the ability to make choices for Cloud. That's one of the reasons that he doesn't have as much personality. Squall gets a bit better as the game progresses, but man is he a difficult character to care for through most of the game. I also have to say that I didn't pick up on a homo-erotic relationship between Cloud and Sephiroth, though it may very well be there.

There's much more to go into, but I'll leave it there. One thing I'll end with is that this seems to be happening more and more with FFVII, people going back to it without rose-colored glasses to see it for what is was. I have a similar story with it though mine ended with a greater appreciation for it once I cut through the over-hyped nature of it, so I could see that it was a great (but flawed) game.

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Posted: 4th June 2015 21:49

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Onion Knight
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I disagree final fantasy 7 is a wonderful game with a great plot. The battle system isnt the best but that's not the point of final fantasy 7 it is the wonderful story and tragic plot twists. I never played this game for fun I played it because I had developed an all to real hate for sephiroth. Women do not need to have strong independent roles I mean come on you see it everywhere these days with Hollywood its become ridiculous and annoying the music is amazing and the characters are so loveable i dont understand why you dont like them
there is no gay connection between cloud zack and sephiroth who wouldn't want to be as strong as sephiroth it would have been wrong if cloud wasnt affected by zacks death I mean imagine a friend of yours saves your life and then he dies and its all your fault

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The people I've met and the places I've been all have made me the man I so proudly am.-Scott Mescudi
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Posted: 5th June 2015 04:33
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Returner
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FF7, 5 and 1 are probably my favorite games in the FF world. I actually hated FF6 so much that I couldn't make it through the whole game. I legitimately hated Terra and the characters didn't catch me really.

I loved the complexity of FFVII. Each character has a backstory that you can choose to delve more (or less) into as the game progresses. I am also a huge fan of games with side quests and optional bosses. It really is possible to play 99+ hours and still not finish the game if you're leveling and chocobo breeding/racing.

But if someone asked me why FF7 is my favorite game, it's because of the ambiguity of 'good' and 'evil'. Sometimes you fight the Turks, other times they help you out. Is Sephiroth the main bad guy or is he just a pawn of Jenova driven mad by her cells? We saw how they affected Cloud so maybe she's the true bad guy and not Sephiroth? Yet again, aren't the Cetra at fault for not letting the planet-created weapons kill Jenova? They just froze her away, they never let the weapons engage her to destroy her once and for all. Is Hojo really a bad guy? He was trying so hard to expand the race of Cetras which were the planet protectors- that was his incentive with creating Sephiroth in the first place, not planet destruction.

Sooooo much gray area. The plot is enormously deep and even though I've played the game multiple times each time I pick it up again I understand a new aspect that I never appreciated/understood before.
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Posted: 5th June 2015 04:36

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Onion Knight
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Well put archadia I couldnt agree more


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The people I've met and the places I've been all have made me the man I so proudly am.-Scott Mescudi
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Posted: 5th June 2015 04:39

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Behemoth
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Well, yeah, they do need strong independent parts. And FFVII does follow a game with two main female characters, that do not always play the damsel in distress. But Tifa does not always play the damsel in distress role.

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Posted: 5th June 2015 20:33

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Black Mage
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Wow, there's a lot to unpack here. I hardly know where to begin, so I'll just pick the three things that stood out the most that I disagreed with.

Combat:
Your criticism of the combat system (that every character handles the same) basically applies to almost every FF game. In fact FF8's system is way worse because it discourages casting your spells since your stats are directly related to how many of a given spell you've stacked. The limit breaks in FF8 weren't great either. Squall just has one limit he uses all game. Zell's was just a re-imagination of Tifa's slots. Quistis's blue magic was not terribly useful. Selphie just cast random spells. Irvine's required you to load up on ammo. I don't even really remember Rinoa's except that she had something akin to Aeris's final limit break. My recollection of playing FF8 is basically: never cast spells, summon your guardian forces constantly against bosses to shield yourself, and use attack command repeatedly. FF10's sphere grid gave every character access to everyone else's abilities, so by the end of the game, every character is identical and can basic attack for 99,999 damage and OHKO the final boss. FF12 played like a strategy RPG and every character felt like a generic that you could customize. I don't recall anything about that particular one that made each individual character more useful than any other.

Cloud:
Cloud's character development is about coming to terms with his personal trauma and delusions caused by it. His relationship with Sephiroth wasn't about any homosexual desire on his part and I never got this military bro-code vibe you mentioned. Sephiroth was his role-model. He looked up to him, but Sephiroth betrayed his admiration and slaughtered his whole hometown. So his obsession is about revenge and later about closure (there's also the fact that the Jenova cells in his body would have also established a subconscious connection between them). Zack on the other hand was Cloud's only friend, and he also really admired him because he was able to do what Cloud had dreamed of (become member of Soldier). If you recall, Cloud didn't really have any friends back home, and set out specifically to make a name for himself so people would respect him. By contrast, I have no idea what Squall's motivations are throughout FF8. He doesn't really leave any sort of impression at all.

Female Characters:
The females in FF7 are far from prototypical damsels in distress but both Tifa and Aeris touch on the theme and then end up overturning the archtype. Aeris sees Cloud and he reminds her of her ex-boyfriend, Zack (no surprise there since he basically thinks he's Zack). She then sets out to turn him into a replacement for Zack since he's been gone for years. She acts like she needs help or to be saved, but really, she'd been living in the slums and dealing with the Turks on her own for years. In the end she goes off on her own and doesn't need to be saved, but rather, she is doing the saving. Tifa as a child had dreams of being the damsel in a fairy tale saved by her hero, but she also has an independent and adventurous spirit (she would explore the mountains on her own to a point that she became a mountain guide). She also trained in martial arts and could handle herself pretty well. Like Aeris, in the end, she turns out to do the saving as she dives into Cloud's subconscious and pulls him together so he can come out of his catatonic state.

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Posted: 6th June 2015 02:31

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Behemoth
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I agree with your points about FFVII's female characters. My point was to say that it was hard for them to follow FFVI's main characters. But I agree that I they are very strong.

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Posted: 7th June 2015 02:15

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Cactuar
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Quote (ElPanachino)

Combat:
Your criticism of the combat system (that every character handles the same) basically applies to almost every FF game. In fact FF8's system is way worse because it discourages casting your spells since your stats are directly related to how many of a given spell you've stacked. The limit breaks in FF8 weren't great either. Squall just has one limit he uses all game. Zell's was just a re-imagination of Tifa's slots. Quistis's blue magic was not terribly useful. Selphie just cast random spells. Irvine's required you to load up on ammo. I don't even really remember Rinoa's except that she had something akin to Aeris's final limit break. My recollection of playing FF8 is basically: never cast spells, summon your guardian forces constantly against bosses to shield yourself, and use attack command repeatedly. FF10's sphere grid gave every character access to everyone else's abilities, so by the end of the game, every character is identical and can basic attack for 99,999 damage and OHKO the final boss. FF12 played like a strategy RPG and every character felt like a generic that you could customize. I don't recall anything about that particular one that made each individual character more useful than any other.


1.) First of all FFVIII's battle system doesn't necessarily discourage you from casting spells, since you can constantly refine magic from items.

2.) The limit breaks were no better or worse than FFVII's but really, the only one you should use is Squall's. The trigger mechanic added a sense of urgency to using it, he can hit multiple times at near max damage, and once you get Lionheart, you can have 20+ hits of 9999 damage. His 1 limit is never the same.

3.) You didn't play FFVIII right if your recollection was to never cast spells, summon GFs constantly and use attack repeatedly. If you acquire every GF, they have abilities that change battles completely. Devour, Mug, Card, etc...

But the whole point of FFVIII's battle system is to first, run away from every random encounter, then get the Diablo GF and learn the Enc-Half and Enc-None abilities so you can advance the plot to your liking, and encounter random battles to your liking. FFVIII's battle system actually discourages grinding and leveling up, because every level is gained at 9999 exp, you level up rather fast and your enemies level up WITH you. If you avoid random encounters until you get specific GF abilities, you can exploit the battle system to your liking. The depth behind its battle system is ingenious. It isn't about attacking, not casting spells and summoning GF, in fact it is the exact opposite. It is about how and who you junction your GF to, allowing you to make a mage, a thief or a warrior class. The last several times I've played through the game, I haven't used all but maybe a handful of the summons (Doomtrain, Alexander, Bahamut, Cactuar, Eden come to mind and those are late game summons).

The lower level you stay by the end of the game, the more powerful you become. The beauty in this is that it allows you to experience the Boss battles, GF battles and side-quest battles different every time you play the game. The junction system is incredibly fun and deep. Each GF has different unlockable abilities that allow you to refine magic and items from cards and any other items in the game. You basically have an endless supply of magic, so to junction a strong spell to your Magic stat to create a mage doesn't hinder your use of another spell, since you can refine more of it anyway.

Once you get your stats junctioned, you can be level 10-20 with max Strength, HP, Vitality, Spirit and Magic at the end of the game. The game is actually harder to play when you try to keep your levels as low as possible. The ability increases, such as the +20%, 40%, 60%, and 80% junctions allow you to hold your own against some of the optional boss battles (Ultima/Omega Weapon) and against the harder bosses. The difficulty is balanced more the lower your levels.

Add that to the plethora of side-quests and mini-games and it allows you to enjoy the game without the tedium that literally every other entry in the series has.

Trust me, you aren't playing FFVIII right, and it is perhaps the most misunderstood entry in the series. It has some of the best dialogue, plot and character development in the entire series and some really enjoyable characters. It touches more on the effects of war on a society than any other game in the series, with the central theme being not good vs evil, but opposing viewpoints, beliefs and governmental structures. Even the main character constantly addresses the themes of love, loss and war.

Its main side-quest, Triple Triad, is perhaps the best mini-game in any RPG, one that is absolutely required to play in order build your characters to be as strong as possible (Card-Mod ability) and to beat the Omega Weapon. If you didn't play this side-quest as much as the main game, you again played FFVIII wrong.

Quote
Cloud:
Cloud's character development is about coming to terms with his personal trauma and delusions caused by it. His relationship with Sephiroth wasn't about any homosexual desire on his part and I never got this military bro-code vibe you mentioned. Sephiroth was his role-model. He looked up to him, but Sephiroth betrayed his admiration and slaughtered his whole hometown. So his obsession is about revenge and later about closure (there's also the fact that the Jenova cells in his body would have also established a subconscious connection between them). Zack on the other hand was Cloud's only friend, and he also really admired him because he was able to do what Cloud had dreamed of (become member of Soldier). If you recall, Cloud didn't really have any friends back home, and set out specifically to make a name for himself so people would respect him. By contrast, I have no idea what Squall's motivations are throughout FF8. He doesn't really leave any sort of impression at all.


1.) I'll give you credit here but at the same time, he has absolutely zero development until that specific scene where his back-story and character are literally revealed to you all at once. It isn't actually a development of character, his character simply turns a 180 much too late in the game to call it character development. It is unrealistic that a traumatized, delusional person is miraculously changed by one event that sets the past right and in full view, allowing he or she to become a more complete person. Cloud was a dick the entire game until there was about 10% of it left.

2.) He literally spends the entire game chasing his military bro who was his role model. That literally is the bro-code vibe you mention you failed to see. That's what the military is, and what it does to its recruits. They usually pair them up with a fellow recruit to build trust and promote comradery. There is homo-eroticism, homo-phobia and latent homo-sexuality present in the military. It is one of its biggest issues.

3.) "Really admiring" someone because they became a member of an elite mercenary group IS homo-eroticism. That's what makes it homo-erotic.

4.) Cloud's motivations aren't, like I said, about saving the planet, avenging Aerith's
Possible spoilers: highlight to view
death
or saving/protecting his friends. It is literally about his rivalry with Sephiroth, and his desire to prove he is the better soldier and to avenge his heinous acts and allow him to have closure for the trauma caused by them. That is his one motivation the entire game.

By contrast, Squall's motivations are his friends and loved one's. I will admit, at first it isn't clear Squall has any motivation at all. But revealed through a series of flashbacks, his big sis, Ellone, is the first hint of what motivates him. He loved and looked up to his big sis, a feminine figure whom was his matriarch along with Matron. The friends he grew up with, at least some of them, have remained close (even if he doesn't remember it at first) throughout his life. As a student, and a mercenary, Squall's motivations are to protect his comrades even if he doesn't know what he believes in. As the game progresses, he is reunited and surrounded with his family and loved one's, he falls in love, and his motivation is to protect them, revealed through a series of events that unfolds throughout the course of the game that pull him and his allies into a conflict that threatens time and space, not just the world, his self or his loved ones.

There is a scene on the second disc that really shows Squall is an intelligent, understanding, compassionate character. After Garden crashes in Fisherman's Horizon, they are greeted by the Mayor, who is a pacifist. He demands they leave as soon as the repairs to the Garden are completed because he believes Squall's, and Garden's presence, will bring violence to their peaceful, non-militaristic society. After a conflict arises, Squall explains to the Mayor that he wishes there was no conflict and that they didn't have to fight but that is unrealistic and possibly too romantic. And that he fights because he knows the ones he loves will be threatened by aggression. That sometimes, your enemies won't listen to reason and the only thing left is to defend yourself.

Quote
Female Characters:
The females in FF7 are far from prototypical damsels in distress but both Tifa and Aeris touch on the theme and then end up overturning the archtype. Aeris sees Cloud and he reminds her of her ex-boyfriend, Zack (no surprise there since he basically thinks he's Zack). She then sets out to turn him into a replacement for Zack since he's been gone for years. She acts like she needs help or to be saved, but really, she'd been living in the slums and dealing with the Turks on her own for years. In the end she goes off on her own and doesn't need to be saved, but rather, she is doing the saving. Tifa as a child had dreams of being the damsel in a fairy tale saved by her hero, but she also has an independent and adventurous spirit (she would explore the mountains on her own to a point that she became a mountain guide). She also trained in martial arts and could handle herself pretty well. Like Aeris, in the end, she turns out to do the saving as she dives into Cloud's subconscious and pulls him together so he can come out of his catatonic state.


This is your best argument. You make a lot of great points but there is an underlying worship of the phallus present in both Tifa and Aerith. Aerith trying to turn Cloud into a replacement for her lost boyfriend, Tifa having a misguided love for him her whole life. Their "duties" as women are very conservative in that they both see their duty revolve around Cloud. They are there to serve him, and save him in the end. That is not independence. That is subservience.

This post has been edited by Dynamic Threads on 7th June 2015 02:16

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Post #209015
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Posted: 7th June 2015 02:26

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Cactuar
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Quote (MattMescudi @ 4th June 2015 16:49)
I disagree final fantasy 7 is a wonderful game with a great plot. The battle system isnt the best but that's not the point of final fantasy 7 it is the wonderful story and tragic plot twists. I never played this game for fun I played it because I had developed an all to real hate for sephiroth. Women do not need to have strong independent roles I mean come on you see it everywhere these days with Hollywood its become ridiculous and annoying the music is amazing and the characters are so loveable i dont understand why you dont like them
there is no  gay connection between cloud zack and sephiroth who wouldn't want to be as strong as sephiroth it would have been wrong if cloud wasnt affected by zacks death I mean imagine a friend of yours saves your life and then he dies and its all your fault



This is a ridiculous thing to say, especially since it isn't true. Hunger Games a strong representation of females is not.





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Posted: 7th June 2015 05:12

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Black Mage
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A combat system that discourages leveling in a genre that is based on leveling is like punishing players for playing the game the way they're used to playing it. Sure, people will sometimes do low-level challenges, but that's a choice they make, usually on a subsequent playthrough. Also, running from battles for the entire first disc sounds awful. I also remember drawing magic up to 99 from enemies and it was kind of lame.

So, bro-code according to you means seeking revenge? I don't know what your experience is with the military, but it seems like you might be projecting something onto the story here. Furthermore, if you're going to talk about military bros, isn't that basically what Squall and Seifer are? I think if anything, Cloud was a fish out of water in the military. He didn't quite fit the bill, which is why he ends up conflating his memories with Zack's stories to cover up his weaknesses. Part of his character development is in fact accepting his own weakness so he can move past it.

Having heroes is not tantamount to homo-eroticism. I admire teachers I've had in the past. I'm not trying to get in bed with them nor am I sexually aroused by them. There's no sexual subtext implicit in admiration. On a similar note, having romantic feelings or desires is not phallic worship, it's just basic humanity. You seem to have some peculiar ideas about sexuality.

Aeris saves the planet for the planet's sake, not for Cloud's. Remember, she can actually hear the voice of the planet and of past lives flowing through the lifestream. Also, if anything, by recruiting him as a bodyguard she's making him subservient to her, not the other way around.

Tifa's relationship with Cloud isn't purely about sexual attraction. It's about a shared past, a shared tragedy, a fateful reunion, and a rekindled friendship. Her "duty" to him isn't about a female subservience to male. She feels responsible for the way he lost himself. She could have pointed out the inconsistencies in his story, but didn't. As a result, Cloud didn't properly remember his traumatic experience and was more easily confused by Sephiroth's manipulations.

The common thread in your arguments about the character relationships in FF7 seems to be that you like to reduce everything to sexual organs and the desire thereof. That being the case, I'm surprised you don't write off Squall's character as a sexually confused bro who can't decide between Seifer and Rinoa.

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Post #209018
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Posted: 7th June 2015 17:54

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Cactuar
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Quote (ElPanachino @ 7th June 2015 00:12)
A combat system that discourages leveling in a genre that is based on leveling is like punishing players for playing the game the way they're used to playing it. Sure, people will sometimes do low-level challenges, but that's a choice they make, usually on a subsequent playthrough. Also, running from battles for the entire first disc sounds awful. I also remember drawing magic up to 99 from enemies and it was kind of lame.


First of all, Diablos is the 4th GF you can get in the game. You wouldn't even have encountered 100 random battles by the time you get it, and the Enc-Half and Enc-None abilities are easily learned by the end of your mission in Timber. And part of the reason I get sick of especially the older games and most RPGs is the ridiculous amount of grinding you have to do BEFORE you can advance the story. FFVIII let's you advance the story as much as you want before you have to grind, making the game a more enjoyable experience.

But that's the flack that FFVIII gets for its battle system, you get to the next level after 9999 exp at every single level. It isn't a low level challenge, since the game is more challenging the higher your level is by the end of the game. They literally designed the game to take advantage of the battle system. And like I said, you don't need to sit and draw 99 magic from enemies, since you can refine magic from items and cards. You were wasting your time, and it is lame, you're right, because it isn't necessary. The only time you should have used Draw is to Draw GFs from bosses.

Quote
So, bro-code according to you means seeking revenge? I don't know what your experience is with the military, but it seems like you might be projecting something onto the story here. Furthermore, if you're going to talk about military bros, isn't that basically what Squall and Seifer are? I think if anything, Cloud was a fish out of water in the military. He didn't quite fit the bill, which is why he ends up conflating his memories with Zack's stories to cover up his weaknesses. Part of his character development is in fact accepting his own weakness so he can move past it.


Squall and Seifer grew up in an orphanage together. It is clearly a sibling rivalry that has followed them their entire lives. When their orphanage was destroyed, they were sent to a military institution as children without any say in the matter.

And bro-code is something you brought up. Most of what goes on between Sephiroth, Cloud and Zack is rather bro-esque, IMO. And I have no military experience, but am educated enough to know the rampant homo-eroticism that exists in militaristic societies, and patriarchal societies. This is something you need to read about in order to argue against.

There are tons of "fish out of water" examples in the military. But the fact of the matter is, you very rarely are forced to join. Meaning it is your choice to join the military. Conflating your memories with that of another, and doing it because you view yourself as weak and him as strong, is not normal behavior. I think you don't fully understand what homo-eroticism is, especially when the military is involved.

Quote
Having heroes is not  tantamount to homo-eroticism. I admire teachers I've had in the past. I'm not trying to get in bed with them nor am I sexually aroused by them. There's no sexual subtext implicit in admiration. On a similar note, having romantic feelings or desires is not phallic worship, it's just basic humanity. You seem to have some peculiar ideas about sexuality.


Homoeroticism is the sexual attraction that exists between members of the same sex. It is not necessarily homosexual; rather it exists as a tension between heterosexual norms and expectations and natural attraction between two members of the same gender. It exists strongly in single-gender spaces, such as sports teams, the military, and pro-wrestling. However it is acted out through heterosexual norms, often placing a wedge between the homoerotic tension and the hetero norms of the space.

I really do not have peculiar ideas about sexuality. Having "heroes" is fine and all and I never said that having a hero is tantamount to homo-eroticism. You are twisting my words to try and argue against me by twisting them and without actually considering the subtext that exists between 3 male, military "bros". This is a well documented idea in both literature and academics. There are countless examples in writing about the implicit homo-eroticism in the military. It is it's homophobia, especially, that makes it so. Also, there is, in fact, a large instance of sexual subtext implicit in admiration. Not every instance, but it does exist.

This is an excerpt from a book I found in an article I came across just now while searching google and I will put it in a spoiler since it is rather graphic:

From Bring Me Men by Aaron Belkin:

Possible spoilers: highlight to view
"I discovered that in the latter decades of the twentieth century, male American service members penetrated each otherís bodies Ďall of the timeí. They forced broom handles, fingers and penises into each otherís anuses. They stuck pins into flesh and bones. They vomited into one anotherís mouths and forced rotten food down each otherís throats. They inserted tubes into each otherís anal cavities and then pumped grease through the tubes. And parallel to these literal penetrations, they subjected each other to constant, symbolic penetrations as well. Penetrating and being penetrated have been central to what it means to be a warrior in the U.S. armed forces."


Quote
Aeris saves the planet for the planet's sake, not for Cloud's. Remember, she can actually hear the voice of the planet and of past lives flowing through the lifestream. Also, if anything, by recruiting him as a bodyguard she's making him subservient to her, not the other way around.


I don't think I said she was saving the planet for Cloud sake at any point. And the whole "bodyguard" thing wasn't anything more than flirting, at least that's how I saw it.

Quote
Tifa's relationship with Cloud isn't purely about sexual attraction. It's about a shared past, a shared tragedy, a fateful reunion, and a rekindled friendship. Her "duty" to him isn't about a female subservience to male. She feels responsible for the way he lost himself. She could have pointed out the inconsistencies in his story, but didn't. As a result, Cloud didn't properly remember his traumatic experience and was more easily confused by Sephiroth's manipulations.


I didn't say her relationship to Cloud was "purely about sexual attraction". I said it was a "misguided sexual attraction" which implies a lot more than just she wants to be with him sexually. But the fact that you mention her "duty" to him, or that she feels she has or does have a duty to him at all, especially if it is that she feels responsible for the way he lost himself, is implying a lot. Her subservience is the responsibility she feels based on gender tropes in society, and her failure to point out the inconsistencies in his "story" come across as female manipulation, a stereotype that follows women in our society.

Quote
The common thread in your arguments about the character relationships in FF7 seems to be that you like to reduce everything to sexual organs and the desire thereof. That being the case, I'm surprised you don't write off Squall's character as a sexually confused bro who can't decide between Seifer and Rinoa.


Phallus worship is not so simple as the desire of sexual organs. I suggest you do some reading if you are going to interpret what I'm saying as such. It is you who is taking what I've said and turning it into blatant sexual lust and the desire of physical contact, which is not what I am implying at all. There is a lot more to social dynamics than just that, and as humans, we have a sexuality that extends beyond simplifying it to sexual intercourse. I was pointing out the fact that I saw a lot of stereotypical gender tropes in FFVII, not who wanted to bang who and that characters were gay or sexually confused.

And Squall's character was not a "sexually confused bro who couldn't decide between Seifer and Rinoa". Squall was an orphan, Seifer was his sibling rival whom he grew up with, and Rinoa was a woman who Squall fell in love with throughout the course of the game. It is Squall and Rinoa's romance that is perhaps the most fleshed out part of the game, developed wonderfully and very realistically. At no point does Squall show any confusion about his sexuality, nor does he have a homo-erotic relationship with Seifer. They are "brothers" and it is through this comparison, that you seem to keep bringing up, that I have realized just how well-done the relationships were in FFVIII. If you want to use examples from FFVIII to counter-argue what I have said in regards to Cloud, Zach and Sephiroth, you should be looking more at Laguna, Kiros and Ward as examples to use against me, and you would be onto something, I admit. But you are turning this into a "why I love FFVII and why I hate FFVIII" argument and it really doesn't help or support your argument. In fact, it actually is hindering your argument because FFVIII touches on a lot of themes that surround war and military. It has a central theme that is about taking orphans and putting them into military institutions so that all they know is war and battle, yet Squall and even Seifer, still manage to be independent, strong-willed and thoughtful characters, neither of which define stereotypes usually exemplified in their roles. They are strong characters because they consistently challenge these stereotypes throughout the course of FFVIII. In comparison, FFVII's Cloud, as well as most of it's characters, define stereotypes, remaining static and ending the way they started, no matter how much "change' they go through.




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Post #209022
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Posted: 7th June 2015 18:19

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Listen I'm not trying to say that FFVII was blatantly homo-erotic or that every character was an annoying stereotype that adhered to gender roles and archetypes, I was simply pointing out some underlying elements in the game that I had noticed after I had put some thought into it.

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Post #209023
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Posted: 7th June 2015 19:02

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Black Mage
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Look, I'm not going to convince you to like FFVII and you're not going to convince me to like FFVIII.

I don't believe Squall is sexually confused, I just feel that the arguments you make about Cloud, Zack, and Sephiroth (which I don't believe) could be made for Squall and Seifer (and I still wouldn't believe them).

Sure, I'm well aware of the homo-eroticism present in real-life sports and military, but as far as the narrative of the game, it's just not there. You seem to be saying that because it's present in the military and they're in the military, it's a given that they're being homo-erotic.

Phallus worship is about either fertility or sexuality, and since I don't think you are talking about fertility, then I have to interpret the statement as being about sexuality.

This all being about a work of fiction is certainly up for interpretation, so every player will get something different out of it. I'm just not buying your interpretations of the character relationships.

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Post #209024
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Posted: 8th June 2015 02:29

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Quote (ElPanachino @ 7th June 2015 14:02)
Look, I'm not going to convince you to like FFVII and you're not going to convince me to like FFVIII.

I don't believe Squall is sexually confused, I just feel that the arguments you make about Cloud, Zack, and Sephiroth (which I don't believe) could be made for Squall and Seifer (and I still wouldn't believe them).

Sure, I'm well aware of the homo-eroticism present in real-life sports and military, but as far as the narrative of the game, it's just not there. You seem to be saying that because it's present in the military and they're in the military, it's a given that they're being homo-erotic.

Phallus worship is about either fertility or sexuality, and since I don't think you are talking about fertility, then I have to interpret the statement as being about sexuality.

This all being about a work of fiction is certainly up for interpretation, so every player will get something different out of it. I'm just not buying your interpretations of the character relationships.


Well the point of this thread wasn't to convince anyone to like FFVIII, that's for sure. I know it has it's fair share of haters but I consider it to be amoung the best in the series, a game that rewards the player through subsequent playthroughs.

But I don't need to be convinced to like FFVII, since I don't hate it. I just think it is an incredibly flawed game. It has one of the best soundtracks in the series, has some of the most difficult boss battles, probably the coolest summon (Knights of the Round) and some fun mini-games. I even said I find the characters to be likable.

But just because you don't see any homoerotic undertones doesn't mean they aren't there. Don't overstate my perceptions; I said that a homoerotic paradigm exists between Cloud and Sephiroth, mainly, and just because that turns you off or threatens your perception of the characters doesn't mean it is a bad thing. It isn't necessarily a bad thing at all, actually. However, I think you are wrong in saying that there is absolutely zero evidence of it. The fact that Cloud so passionately wants to prove he is the better soldier, so strongly wants revenge and closure suggests that much. It isn't rampant, but it has its undertones.

And phallus worship is most closely linked to regeneration. It is symbolic, and your belief that it centers around fertility or sexuality is inaccurate. I was however, using it as an example of how in most modern societies, the male, or patriarch, is held to a higher esteem and value than that of the female, or matriarch and I think that FFVII, being made by mostly Japanese people, who have a traditionally patriarchal society, and being marketed to the west (mostly America), another predominately patriarchal society, is a microcosm of our society as a whole, that when one looks past the carefree attitude of something such as a videogame and philosophically interprets the game, they can begin to see undertones from our society refleted in the game's characters and social dynamics. Of course, you wouldn't begin to notice these things unless you played the game more than once and possibly a few times, which I obviously have with FFVII, something I wouldn't have been able to do if I abhorred the game.

And before you try to use FFVIII, which you have pretty much admitted you don't like, as a basis for your argument, I suggest you find a better example, because as I have counter-argued, your claims that you can say the same homo-eroticism exists between Squall and Seifer are unfounded, since they have a relationship more akin to a sibling rivalry. Female characters also drive the story of FFVIII, Ellone, Raine, Rinoa, Edea, Adel, Ultimecia are all characters that are key figures in the game. A game that centers around females, and not just any females, but strong, independant female characters. Something I just don't see in FFVII.

Again, just because there might be homo-erotic elements or tensions to a relationship between characters, doesn't mean it is a bad thing. Your reaction to my suggestion is mildly alarming. I'm not reaching when I say it exists between Cloud and Sephiroth, but you seem to be making it a bigger topic than I have.

My original statement on the subject is as follows:

Quote
And Cloud's, Sephiroth's and Zach's hyper-masculine, militaristic characters loom over the entire game, now that I think of it.


It is this hyper-masculinity, that suggests there is a slight homo-eroticism to their social dynamics.

Of course, further examples from FFVII such as the bathhouse scene, Cloud's cross dressing escapade, or his possible date with Barret at the Golden Saucer exist, and could be used in the discussion, yet you continue to use FFVIII as a basis for your counter-argument because you admittedly didn't like the game and seem to want to make this a topic about FFVII vs. FFVIII.

Why, now that I think of it, in FFVII it even suggests that Cid physically abuses Shera, and he definitely abuses her emotionally. So don't tell me that FFVII's female characters are "strong", and ignore the supporting cast altogether in the argument.

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Post #209028
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Posted: 8th June 2015 22:55

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Onion Knight
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Hey dynamic threads you simply proved my point women have strong independent roles in every movie ever I swear can we just quit with it we get it "women can be strong to" but csn we just cool it it's making everything so predictable and it all blends into the same thing and it gets old and makes everything lose some of its originality that's the point im making

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Post #209036
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Posted: 9th June 2015 00:29

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Cactuar
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Quote (MattMescudi @ 8th June 2015 17:55)
Hey dynamic threads you simply proved my point women have strong independent roles in every movie ever I swear can we just quit with it we get it "women can be strong to" but csn we just cool it it's making everything so predictable and it all blends into the same thing and it gets old and makes everything lose some of its originality that's the point im making

It seems you misread what I said. But if you seriously think that women are strongly represented in Hollywood then I don't know what to tell you, because they aren't.

But the topic of this thread wasn't just FFVII is sexist and homophobic. I simply suggested that compared to other entries in the series, it lacks sophistication, that it is juvenile and that it has some very stereotypical character tropes. Part of these tropes being hyper-masculinity and sexism. I point out that some it's major flaws are it's representation of females, especially. And especially when compared to the games that both preceded and succeeded it.

The more I think about it, and with a couple of the reactions presented in defense of the game, the larger these flaws seem.

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Post #209042
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Posted: 9th June 2015 05:30

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Behemoth
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Quote (Dynamic Threads @ 8th June 2015 20:29)
Quote (MattMescudi @ 8th June 2015 17:55)
Hey dynamic threads you simply proved my point women have strong independent roles in every movie ever I swear can we just quit with it we get it "women can be strong to" but csn we just cool it it's making everything  so predictable and it all blends into the same thing and it gets old and makes everything lose some of its originality that's the point im making

It seems you misread what I said. But if you seriously think that women are strongly represented in Hollywood then I don't know what to tell you, because they aren't.

But the topic of this thread wasn't just FFVII is sexist and homophobic. I simply suggested that compared to other entries in the series, it lacks sophistication, that it is juvenile and that it has some very stereotypical character tropes. Part of these tropes being hyper-masculinity and sexism. I point out that some it's major flaws are it's representation of females, especially. And especially when compared to the games that both preceded and succeeded it.

The more I think about it, and with a couple of the reactions presented in defense of the game, the larger these flaws seem.

I certainly don't agree with Matt that women are represented well. I think that's just the permeation of a conservative viewpoint that has seeped its way into mainstream culture. It's easier for people to imagine that women have suddenly been well-represented by finding a few examples (which, upon investigation, usually fall on their face), so we don't have to worry about it or do something. Anybody that has some illusions that video game or nerd culture is progressive are not paying attention.

So, I agree with you on that, but I don't see a lack of sophistication in FFVII's depiction of female characters or in hyper masculinity. The one instance I see is
Possible spoilers: highlight to view
using Aerith's death as a motivator, which Anita Sarkeesian has talked about on her series as a common trope, used in many series.


It's not perfect, but I've always thought the female characters we well-rounded and interesting characters, worthy of note with the other great female characters in the series.

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Post #209050
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Posted: 10th June 2015 03:36

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Quote (BlitzSage @ 9th June 2015 00:30)
Quote (Dynamic Threads @ 8th June 2015 20:29)
Quote (MattMescudi @ 8th June 2015 17:55)
Hey dynamic threads you simply proved my point women have strong independent roles in every movie ever I swear can we just quit with it we get it "women can be strong to" but csn we just cool it it's making everything† so predictable and it all blends into the same thing and it gets old and makes everything lose some of its originality that's the point im making

It seems you misread what I said. But if you seriously think that women are strongly represented in Hollywood then I don't know what to tell you, because they aren't.

But the topic of this thread wasn't just FFVII is sexist and homophobic. I simply suggested that compared to other entries in the series, it lacks sophistication, that it is juvenile and that it has some very stereotypical character tropes. Part of these tropes being hyper-masculinity and sexism. I point out that some it's major flaws are it's representation of females, especially. And especially when compared to the games that both preceded and succeeded it.

The more I think about it, and with a couple of the reactions presented in defense of the game, the larger these flaws seem.

I certainly don't agree with Matt that women are represented well. I think that's just the permeation of a conservative viewpoint that has seeped its way into mainstream culture. It's easier for people to imagine that women have suddenly been well-represented by finding a few examples (which, upon investigation, usually fall on their face), so we don't have to worry about it or do something. Anybody that has some illusions that video game or nerd culture is progressive are not paying attention.

So, I agree with you on that, but I don't see a lack of sophistication in FFVII's depiction of female characters or in hyper masculinity. The one instance I see is
Possible spoilers: highlight to view
using Aerith's death as a motivator, which Anita Sarkeesian has talked about on her series as a common trope, used in many series.


It's not perfect, but I've always thought the female characters we well-rounded and interesting characters, worthy of note with the other great female characters in the series.


Good points, but I'm not sure what you mean exactly in what you put in the spoilers, you mean to say that the trope that exists there is actually a sophisticated one? It is definitely a common role for a female character, whereas not much so for male characters.

Link contains spoilers

https://i.imgflip.com/mosp7.jpg

Lol sorry I had to.

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Post #209077
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Posted: 10th June 2015 05:17

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Quote (Dynamic Threads @ 9th June 2015 23:36)
Good points, but I'm not sure what you mean exactly in what you put in the spoilers, you mean to say that the trope that exists there is actually a sophisticated one? It is definitely a common role for a female character, whereas not much so for male characters.

Link contains spoilers

https://i.imgflip.com/mosp7.jpg

Lol sorry I had to.

I didn't mean to say that it was sophisticated. What I meant to say is that games can have elements that are sophisticated and can also have other elements that aren't. For instance, FFVI has two strong female characters, but one of them is introduced as a damsel in distress.

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Post #209081
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Posted: 10th June 2015 18:46

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Onion Knight
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I agree with blitz sage

This post has been edited by MattMescudi on 10th June 2015 18:48

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Post #209083
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Posted: 11th June 2015 00:08

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Black Mage
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To be fair, all of the characters in FFVI were in distress at one point or another. Though, sadly, Relm seemed to be the worst one at it. Even still, Relm still managed to come in for the save at one point.

For the longest time, love has been a heroic motivation for characters since time began. Suddenly, in the age of equality, women aren't allowed to use love as a motivation because it "weakens" their character. Well, that means the likes of Odysseus, Hector, Launcelot, Gareth, William Wallace, Heracles, Perseus, Hiawatha, Miyamoto Musashi, D'artagnian, King Arthur, Charlemagne, Sinbad, Aladdin, and a list a mile long were just absolute weaklings, then.

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Post #209084
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Posted: 11th June 2015 20:45

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Quote (chevleclair @ 10th June 2015 20:08)
To be fair, all of the characters in FFVI were in distress at one point or another. Though, sadly, Relm seemed to be the worst one at it. Even still, Relm still managed to come in for the save at one point.

For the longest time, love has been a heroic motivation for characters since time began. Suddenly, in the age of equality, women aren't allowed to use love as a motivation because it "weakens" their character. Well, that means the likes of Odysseus, Hector, Launcelot, Gareth, William Wallace, Heracles, Perseus, Hiawatha, Miyamoto Musashi, D'artagnian, King Arthur, Charlemagne, Sinbad, Aladdin, and a list a mile long were just absolute weaklings, then.

Well, it's an interesting topic, that's very tempting to respond to, but we don't need to stray from the topic too far. I'll just say that I agree with Dynamic Threads that women are not represented fairly, but I don't think that the female characters are misrepresented in FFVII.

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Post #209103
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Posted: 11th July 2015 01:46
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Returner
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Quote
But it was precisely AFTER leaving Midgar that my nostalgia started to fade away. Right when that fantastic world music kicked in (in all its glorious MIDI format, being on the PC, although, it made me really appreciate the game in an entirely different way, realizing just how close/similar it is to it's predecessors in tone and feel and gameplay).


Really? How about what happened in Cosmo Canyon, with soldiers dies in the wars keep coming back haunting? Tears of Nanaki's father? How about story of Wutai? The story of North Corel? The burning Niflheim? It's not only a story of an unstoppable destruction, of both the world and human's soul but also full of "hope". Many moments, like the moment people in North Corel was praising Cloud and his friends as heroes, or when Cid first flied into space... did brought me into tears. I think FF7 is remarkable for its realistic experiences; like if you live in the 90s you should understand what I'm trying to say. Mako are like gasoline that people are more and more addicted to; Cid's flight into space reminds of the first landing on the moon which ended the cold war. So if you want to remember how the world looks in the 90s, you'd find some in FF7.

I'm not agree with the point that characters in ff7 are stereotypes. If Tifa and Aerith were stereotype, they should have fought over Cloud. They were just beeing themselves; girls being themselves are stereotype? Cloud himself was not a cool protagonist we usually see - he was struggling with his crappy memories and to find an answer for his life. At first he had no purposes in life or connections toward anybody. In the end he was able to be a strong bond in the team, he realized what's the most important. "The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing! Aeris is gone. Aeris will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry or get angry" - as Cloud is able to say this, you still call him "undeveloped"?

Quote
Why, now that I think of it, in FFVII it even suggests that Cid physically abuses Shera, and he definitely abuses her emotionally. So don't tell me that FFVII's female characters are "strong", and ignore the supporting cast altogether in the argument.


That women was f*cking brave, man. She planned to die for the flight's succeed, without hesitation. You may say she did it for Cid but c'mon, if a man takes the bullet for the women you call him brave but when the women does it you call her fermini? That's sexist.

Still, there is one person I consider to be sereotype - Sephiroth wink.gif He wears black like many other antagonists, and the reason he revenged the world was really lame. But to tell the truth, like other FF game, FF7 is not character-centric. So as long as all the characters fit in, it's ok that they have flaws.


About gameplay, I think it's about personal taste. To me FFVIII gameplay is a little bit hard to get, the job system in other games are interesting but clichť at the same time. My friend usually quit half game in FF series, but seems to be really into FF7 when I show it to him. I myself is not a real fan of FF series, I prefer the FFTactics series.

P/s: Sorry for my poor English.

This post has been edited by haithuong313 on 11th July 2015 01:56
Post #209334
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Posted: 11th July 2015 15:34

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Black Mage
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Joined: 7/1/2014


Final Fantasy VII set a few not so good precedents that I'm willing to let slide on VII because this was the first game that made me aware of these things. Over all, I love the game, but do understand your opinion on it.

Hyper sexualization - In later games, such as X, they would remove character depth in favor of this in characters such as Lulu and Rikku. Tifa still is a decent character with decent depth, especially when Cloud's story is revealed.

I'm not against sexy characters. Give them more than a fan service personality. This is the era of the internet, if I wanted to see her with her boobs exposed, or in various compromising situation, Rule 34 will reveal itself somewhere.

Interminable cinematics - This cut scene takes at least 10 minutes, and is unskippable. I've used this summon for the hundredth time, and it takes 5 minutes each time I use it, let me skip it, please! How many times can Sephiroth make the sun go nova? While later games would give you the option to skip these scenes, I feel that cut scenes should be kept to a minimum in any game, and the story is better told when wound into gameplay.

The Sephiroth speech - Named after, in my book, the first big bad to give the speech by my reckoning. Before that, you would get a badass boast from the villain, talking about how unbeatable he was. From Sephiroth on out, you get the "I'm doing you guys a favor by wiping out billions of lives" speech. This was okay when Sephiroth did it, because it wasn't that widespread, but when every big bad from that time forward decided to give the speech (Ultimecia, Kuja, Seymour, etc) it began to wear on me.

My suggested remedy might not be as popular, but spend some in-game time developing sympathy for the villain. Give them more than one note, like they did Sephiroth. As a matter of fact, make him/her a heroic character and watch him/her slowly corrupt into a villain. Final Fantasy Tactics did this wonderfully with the likes of Wiegraf (even though he was an antagonist, you could clearly see he was an honorable character, what if you did that with a character like...say, Agrias? Wouldn't that be awesome?)

I've said my piece, and I do expect a lot of naysayers, but that's your right. Just try to not get personal, huh? I've made that mistake in the past, and I still regret it.

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"So, are you a fan of the Fett?"

"Nah, I'm more of a Star Wars guy."
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Posted: 13th July 2015 14:21

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Here is my opinion of ff7:

It is a good game and has good gameplay, and a good story.

It is often over blown by people who it was their first game, and overzealous fanboys who make things they like to be the second coming.

Other games do this to.I think secret of mana as an example of a very old game, is put on a pedestal and worshipped.

I actually liked the material system, the chocoobo races and the arena more than FFXS selection of stuff, which was a rehash of the stuff in 7 but much later in the game, and more tedious padding to the game to lengthen it.

Also:I may love ff6 a lot, but I don't think it is necessarily the best game ever either.
I actually am going here: I don't like Terra's theme, and prefer the soundtrack in ff4 and 9 for the most part.I love a lot of the songs, like dancing mad, grand finale, the boss themes, dark world, which is really beautiful theme remastered, that captures the empty vast wasteland.

Anyways back to ff7:

I never got much of an impression of cloud.I admit, early on I was on the cloud is emo and gay and so is sephiroth early on, but I changed my mind.To me, cloud is a poser, a loser and a liar.He lied to everyone about his past, and he pretended to be sack so much, that he literally started to believe it himself.I can't help but despise him for what he is.I also get the impression that sephiroth is mostly crazy.I actually am kind of tired of the insane villain thing when you have a traumatic past, and it comes off as super cliche.Oh no, the villains daddy beat him with a belt, mwahaahha now I am going to conquer ze vorld, and nobody can stop me.That isn't really good character development really, because it is vague enough to make your villain into a comic book villain, like the way dissidia turned Kefka into the joker.I do love the joker in dark knight, and In Arkham asylum.

Sorry for droning on a long time.Point is:No game is perfect.not ff6, certainly not ff7, definitely not ff8, but we should try to enjoy them for what they are.

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.
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Posted: 16th July 2015 07:32
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Quote
To me, cloud is a poser, a loser and a liar.


A liar? I remember he is a loser but did he lie? I remember he was having some memories loss after being exposed to mako... So he believed himself to be a soldier.

Oh yeah, but Tifa was a liar. She kept that secret to herself from the beginning.

Post #209345
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Posted: 16th July 2015 15:54

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Celebrated the CoN 20th Anniversary at the forums. Member of more than five years. 
Quote (haithuong313 @ 16th July 2015 07:32)
Quote
To me, cloud is a poser, a loser and a liar.


A liar? I remember he is a loser but did he lie? I remember he was having some memories loss after being exposed to mako... So he believed himself to be a soldier.

Oh yeah, but Tifa was a liar. She kept that secret to herself from the beginning.

He lied about it by saying to the team he was first class, and tifa said:Just like Zach.

He lied to himself so much as to not disappoint, that he actually beloved he was first class, when he wasn't, and that is why he is nothing more than a fraud.

--------------------
We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.
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Posted: 16th July 2015 21:35

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Celebrated the CoN 20th Anniversary at the forums. 
Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 16th July 2015 10:54)
Quote (haithuong313 @ 16th July 2015 07:32)
Quote
To me, cloud is a poser, a loser and a liar.


A liar? I remember he is a loser but did he lie? I remember he was having some memories loss after being exposed to mako... So he believed himself to be a soldier.

Oh yeah, but Tifa was a liar. She kept that secret to herself from the beginning.

He lied about it by saying to the team he was first class, and tifa said:Just like Zach.

He lied to himself so much as to not disappoint, that he actually beloved he was first class, when he wasn't, and that is why he is nothing more than a fraud.

You raise a great point. People are so quick to victimize Cloud without considering any other possibility for his personality complex.

He clearly lied himself into a state of denial/delusion. This happens all the time in real life.

Unfortunately, in film/videogames and in real life, delusional, narcissistic people are often worshiped. Not only that but they are imitated and no one notices, or at least if they do notice, they don't call out on it.

I also want to make a further point about the homo-eroticism between Cloud and Sephiroth. I will put it in spoilers because it is about the final battle.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view
Unlike most of the Final Fantasy games, where the final battle is the main character and his or her comrades facing off against the boss in a final, epic battle, Final Fantasy 7 differs. You face off in what you think is a final, epic battle and then after a brief cut-scene, you face off 1v1, Cloud vs. Sephiroth. A SHIRTLESS SEPHIROTH. It's as if the game says you know what? Screw your comrades, screw Gaia, this is all about Cloud and Sephiroth. And Sephiroth is super muscular and shirtless and smiling at you as you fly through space smiling back.


I mean, come on. Convincing yourself you are another man who has a stronger conviction, better morals and more ethics than you, a massage (and possibly more) from another man in a clearly homo-sexual spa, cross-dressing, a date with a man and a half-naked confrontation?

Too funny. And it is funny. But for anyone to deny what I've pointed out about a beloved main character, in a universally loved game, is serious denial.

EDIT: From wikipedia:

"In Square's 1997 title Final Fantasy VII, a specific puzzle involves the male protagonist, Cloud Strife, collecting various articles of female attire in order to audition as the girl that will spend the night with a male character. If the player has found enough items they are chosen as the girl and can play along with the scenario to a certain extent, although the couple is interrupted just as they are about to kiss. One of this articles, a wig, is found in a gym of gay male body builders, and the character can also enter a brothel. Depending on which room in the brothel is chosen the character may end up in a hot tub with around 10 men, including the character Mukki, who seems to propose the main character both in this scene and when the player meets him later on in the game."

This post has been edited by Dynamic Threads on 16th July 2015 23:06

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Post #209347
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Posted: 17th July 2015 13:58

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Celebrated the CoN 20th Anniversary at the forums. Member of more than five years. 
Quote (Dynamic Threads @ 16th July 2015 21:35)
Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 16th July 2015 10:54)
Quote (haithuong313 @ 16th July 2015 07:32)
Quote
To me, cloud is a poser, a loser and a liar.


A liar? I remember he is a loser but did he lie? I remember he was having some memories loss after being exposed to mako... So he believed himself to be a soldier.

Oh yeah, but Tifa was a liar. She kept that secret to herself from the beginning.

He lied about it by saying to the team he was first class, and tifa said:Just like Zach.

He lied to himself so much as to not disappoint, that he actually beloved he was first class, when he wasn't, and that is why he is nothing more than a fraud.

You raise a great point. People are so quick to victimize Cloud without considering any other possibility for his personality complex.

He clearly lied himself into a state of denial/delusion. This happens all the time in real life.

Unfortunately, in film/videogames and in real life, delusional, narcissistic people are often worshiped. Not only that but they are imitated and no one notices, or at least if they do notice, they don't call out on it.

I also want to make a further point about the homo-eroticism between Cloud and Sephiroth. I will put it in spoilers because it is about the final battle.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view
Unlike most of the Final Fantasy games, where the final battle is the main character and his or her comrades facing off against the boss in a final, epic battle, Final Fantasy 7 differs. You face off in what you think is a final, epic battle and then after a brief cut-scene, you face off 1v1, Cloud vs. Sephiroth. A SHIRTLESS SEPHIROTH. It's as if the game says you know what? Screw your comrades, screw Gaia, this is all about Cloud and Sephiroth. And Sephiroth is super muscular and shirtless and smiling at you as you fly through space smiling back.


I mean, come on. Convincing yourself you are another man who has a stronger conviction, better morals and more ethics than you, a massage (and possibly more) from another man in a clearly homo-sexual spa, cross-dressing, a date with a man and a half-naked confrontation?

Too funny. And it is funny. But for anyone to deny what I've pointed out about a beloved main character, in a universally loved game, is serious denial.

EDIT: From wikipedia:

"In Square's 1997 title Final Fantasy VII, a specific puzzle involves the male protagonist, Cloud Strife, collecting various articles of female attire in order to audition as the girl that will spend the night with a male character. If the player has found enough items they are chosen as the girl and can play along with the scenario to a certain extent, although the couple is interrupted just as they are about to kiss. One of this articles, a wig, is found in a gym of gay male body builders, and the character can also enter a brothel. Depending on which room in the brothel is chosen the character may end up in a hot tub with around 10 men, including the character Mukki, who seems to propose the main character both in this scene and when the player meets him later on in the game."

I didn't pay much attention to the homoeroticism in ff7.I don't know if it has any meaning on cloud strife being possibly bisexual, which would Make ff7 the first jrpg to include other sexualities other than straight pairs.Its like you can bring Barrett on a date in ff7, but didn't think much of it, unless secretly cloud strife is in the closet and has the hots for sephiroth, which would be weird, and make no sense.

It's not even the fact that he's a liar and a coward that makes him unlikeable to me.To me its his personality, the story surrounding him, and sephiroths personality and story surrounding him.Earlier and later games had no problem giving me a reason to like them, but in ff7, I only truly liked Barrett, cid and tifa.Barret was very human, and I can understand him more now that I am older and old enough to have a kid who is Marlene's age.I Even sympathize with cid, because I can understand giving up on your dreams sacrificing it for the good of others, which is a noble thing.I can understand also why he is bitter.

Cloud strife? I can't relate to him.He seems cold and unfeeling to me.Even towards tifa, he seems kind of cold and uncaring.I also think his development is worse than tifa and Barrett's.

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.
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