CoN 20th Anniversary: 1997-2017
Speaking of Lavos...

Posted: 20th July 2014 08:09
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Anyone else ever found it odd that this is the Final Boss:

user posted image

Not this:

user posted image

But...this...

user posted image

I thought it was weird then and I think it's weird now. I really can't think of any other game where the final enemy encounter...was the final enemy's support mook.

This, to say nothing of the way they died. Just...puff out like a regular enemy encounter. What kinda bull is that? This is the final boss of a Square game and they gon go out like a bitch? Da fug man!

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Posted: 20th July 2014 08:40

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Magitek Soldier
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I was actually confused as to which part was the lavos core thingy when i first played, turs out it's that pod on the right hand side which didnt make any sense, i think it should be the octopus space man in the middle to be honest...

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Posted: 20th July 2014 13:22

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They could all be seen as parts, like organs, of a single entity. Thought of that way, any one could reasonably be the vital part.

Though really, nothing about Lavos' insides makes a whole lot of sense. I just busted its eyeball head, and I still have to fight two more battles inside an inexplicably bright interior? Okay huh.gif.

Yeah, the oddity doesn't start with 'the side mook being the 'final boss'," if'n ya ask me.

This post has been edited by Galsic on 20th July 2014 13:23

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Posted: 20th July 2014 13:39

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Quote (HolyCeles @ 20th July 2014 04:40)
I was actually confused as to which part was the lavos core thingy when i first played, turs out it's that pod on the right hand side which didnt make any sense, i think it should be the octopus space man in the middle to be honest...

I think that was exactly the point, though. So many final bosses are straightforward, and this curveball that Lavos throws is a nice bit of duplicity.

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Posted: 20th July 2014 16:44
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Yeah, but it makes for a pretty weak sauce final battle IMO. The miniscule size, the aforementioned way they punk out...it just makes for a very underwhelming victory. Even when I first played it, it didn't feel like I beat the guy so much as he got tired of me fighting and left.

This post has been edited by Narratorway on 20th July 2014 16:44

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Posted: 24th July 2014 22:19

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I thought the final battle was pretty intense, personally, at least the first time I played. Part of the reason it was so exciting is that I didn't know that was the actual final boss you had to kill, so figuring him out was exhilarating.

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Posted: 24th July 2014 23:54

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Lavos Core Theme

I used to headbang to this

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Posted: 27th July 2014 20:27

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Quote (Narratorway @ 20th July 2014 12:44)
Yeah, but it makes for a pretty weak sauce final battle IMO. The miniscule size, the aforementioned way they punk out...it just makes for a very underwhelming victory. Even when I first played it, it didn't feel like I beat the guy so much as he got tired of me fighting and left.

Final Fantasy XIII was a bit like that as well - the final, final boss was rather small. But it did have a pretty big death, with all the bells and whistles. You might say Final Fantasy X was like that as well, with Yu Yevon: but that battle was unloseable and immediately followed a much more difficult encounter that essentially served as the final boss proper.

In any case, I think the buildup and the big-bang death sequence are more important for setting the final boss mood. I agree with Josh that mixing it up a bit in terms of size / appearance is a neat touch, but only by juxtaposition with a big build-up and post-battle: if the sequences surrounding the battle aren't big, though, then I don't think a small boss works.

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Posted: 28th July 2014 05:30
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Quote (Spooniest @ 24th July 2014 16:54)
Lavos Core Theme

I used to headbang to this

Funny. World Revolution was always the one that got mah blood a pump'n.

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Posted: 13th October 2014 09:03

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I beat it the first time by noticing the greater damage on the bit after awhile. The battle was harder the first time yet considerably easier after that. smile.gif

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Posted: 31st October 2014 01:38

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Omega Weapon
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Quote (Spooniest @ 24th July 2014 18:54)
Lavos Core Theme

I used to headbang to this

One feature that stands out about this track even now is its oscillating the backing instrument (what even is it?) throughout the track...how it help gives the feel of a weird daze to the whole battle.

It's quite consistent with how it seems to teleport you through time constantly.

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Posted: 15th November 2014 06:37

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Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 30th October 2014 20:38)
Quote (Spooniest @ 24th July 2014 18:54)
Lavos Core Theme

I used to headbang to this

One feature that stands out about this track even now is its oscillating the backing instrument (what even is it?) throughout the track...how it help gives the feel of a weird daze to the whole battle.

It's quite consistent with how it seems to teleport you through time constantly.

I think you mean "modulating" not "oscillating."

There are a few different effects (collectively known as "Modulation Effects") that do something like this. The most primitive is called a Phase Shifter, but there's also Chorus pedals and Flanger pedals. A similar effect can be achieved with a Harmonist pedal, but that's not explicitly what they're for.

Based on my experience with Modulation, I'm going to make an educated guess that a Flanger was used, but I can't be entirely sure. Some especially advanced Delay pedals have a Modulation effect applied to the repeats of the initial signal (quite commonly used by The Edge, of U2 fame), but it doesn't sound like the synth is using a Delay to me (unless the "Time before repeat" setting was dialed down to less than 100 milleseconds, masking that the sound is even repeating at all).

To answer your primary question, though, it sounds suspiciously like a particular synthesizer known as a Moog (pronounced like the name Moe with a g at the end), though I'm fairly certain a real Moog was not used, as they've grown rare and expensive.

The Beatles used one for "Maxwell's Silver Hammer," if you'd like to hear what they sound like.

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Posted: 15th November 2014 07:56

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Omega Weapon
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I was referring to the effect of the sound's "source" sliding back and forth between the two sides of stereo output.

If you're talking about an echoing effect, then that's not what I was referring to. Though I guess that also adds to the track.

I'm not familiar with music electronics, so I'm not familiar with its terminology, and I don't know if "modulation" has a meaning there, but "modulation" has a totally different meaning in music theory, where it refers to a change of key.

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Posted: 15th November 2014 11:50

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Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 15th November 2014 02:56)
"modulation" has a totally different meaning in music theory, where it refers to a change of key.

I know that; however, I use it so seldom in the music I play that I wouldn't have thought of it.

Key modulations in general have become kind of a worn-out trope in the music world. If you're familiar with the Beatles' musical output, it's something that they rarely (if ever) used.

As to the effect of having something shift back and forth between the stereo channels, that's called "Panning."

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Posted: 15th November 2014 17:33

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Oh, right! "Panning"! I should have thought of that...

And yeah, modulations seem kinda rare in non-classical music, aside from the "truck driver's gear change". Sometimes there are key changes between the verse and refrain in a song. But with the basic song form that's like much of the music written these days, it's just two musical ideas basically, and key changes between the sections (or, for that matter, within them) are rare. Though I find them really cool and I really like them when they're done well. On the other hand, though, they're kinda all over the place in classical -- key changes are part and parcel of the late-Romantic and early 20th-century sound. Heck, the "sonata-allegro" form has modulation as a fundamental structural element.

Incidentally, Lavos's theme does feature (key) modulation -- it starts in E minor and then has a section in C minor before the loop. It's sort of gear-changed down to C minor, and there's really no transition going back to E minor other than a pitchless sound effect (which wouldn't really be considered a modulation in traditional theory, but whatever), but it's there.

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 15th November 2014 17:33

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Posted: 15th November 2014 20:07

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Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 15th November 2014 12:33)
Incidentally, Lavos's theme does feature (key) modulation -- it starts in E minor and then has a section in C minor before the loop. It's sort of gear-changed down to C minor, and there's really no transition going back to E minor other than a pitchless sound effect (which wouldn't really be considered a modulation in traditional theory, but whatever), but it's there.

I dunno if this counts either, but it sort of states the primary theme in E minor, then restates it in E flat minor, and then repeats the section in E minor with a double-time drum beat, which is like some kind of weird moon logic, but it does work beautifully.

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