Track this topic | Email this topic | Print this topic

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 13th February 2013 06:23)

So blitzsage, where would you put ff6 on the list of best games of all time? just curious.

I'm sure like Ranger said, bias comes into play, and it's often so deep that it's hard to sift through to find even the small ounces of objectivity that exist (I learned that through studying political science!).

But, when it comes to what I look for in a video game: games with style and presentation that is memorable. And when I think about what I believe video games, and RPGs as a genre within the medium, should be about, and wonder which game best represents that: FFVI is that game. Most of the RPGs I've played, even those with HD graphics, and even those that create expansive worlds and memorable moments do not measure up the job VI does.

So it would be #1 for me. Normally I put Pokemon Red/Blue at #2, mainly because the first generation of Pokemon and their art design, and the stripped-down simplistic feel of those games are things the newer generations of Pokemon don't possess (even though they're great too).

The next is a bit more personal. Honestly, I use the word personal to avoid controversy if we're having a "best" and not "favorite" discussion. But to be perfectly honest: the best platformer I've ever played and my #3 is Donkey Kong Country 2. I go through it every once in a while, and I think its controls are superior to Mario's, because in Mario games I always feel out of control, like Mario's on ice, and it can be annoying. I get that SMB3 is fantastic in terms of aesthetics but I can't get through it because they don't let you farm lives and that's annoying too. But I would probably say that, to let Mario fans not form an angry mob, that SMW is probably #4. But I played Super Metroid, Link to the Past and Chrono Trigger in the past two years, and man they're impressive, so they're climbing up the list. Sonic 2 is also up there, with Wolfenstein 3D, and FFVII, IX, Tomb Raider, Half Life and so on.

Most of my games come from the Super Nintendo, because I think it's the best era for video games, a perfect mixture of old school graphics with progressive innovations. But I think you're right that we shouldn't exclude the newer generations of games, though I think we should allow time for consideration. There have been many games that show the uniqueness that FFVI does. Vice City is one (to me, the standout of the GTA games), Metroid Prime is another. But these are the ones in recent memory that are the best to me: Shadow of the Colossus, Bioshock, Fallout 3 and Mass Effect. For Bioshock and Fallout 3, the stories themselves are not strong, but the environment and production values they are necessary to play. For Mass Effect and SotC, they reflect great storytelling on two opposite poles. SotC uses design elements like creating sparse area maps and utilizing visual cues to tell its story, while Mass Effect enters into FFVI territory by using strong characterization and compelling sidequests. Those games deserve all the praise they get and even more, but I also think in this kind of debate people ought to separate newer games from the "all time" discussion.

--------------------

Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 14th February 2013 05:55)

I can't get through it because they don't let you farm lives

Unlimited 1-ups

You didn't know about this?

--------------------

X is blue.

Quote (Spooniest @ 14th February 2013 21:47)

Quote (BlitzSage @ 14th February 2013 05:55)

I can't get through it because they don't let you farm lives

Unlimited 1-ups

You didn't know about this?

Yeah I knew, but you still can't replay levels in SMB3, which is the fun that I get out of farming in DKC. Also, you can't turn the game off, and once you beat the level you can't go back and do it. It worked in SMB1 better because it was a bit easier to me, and there wasn't a world map. So I'm just talking about SMB3 there.

--------------------

Praise Be To Helix!

I hadn't played RPGs like FF6/7/8 in like 5 years but thanks to PSN I got them all again.

I have to say, after giving FF6 another play through it reminded me of why it is my favorite game of all time. Not just RPG, it is my downright favorite game, hands down.

Storyline wise, it's simple, yet complex enough to make you think. You can relate to most characters in some way or another. Every character (with the exception of Gogo and Umaro) has a unique story with a deep history.

Let's do a random sample comparison:

Celes Chere: Former Imperial General, genetic experiment and humanitarian. Disgusted by the Empire's actions against humans she becomes a deserter. Caught, tortured and facing execution she is rescued. Due to her past she has trust issues, a fragile soul and has difficulty getting close to people. Falls in love with Locke. Locke distrusts her for a moment: shattered soul. Regains her confidence when she is forced find her friends and stop Kefka from killing the world.

Barrett Wallace: Angry because Shinra burned his village and is killin' the planet. So he becomes a terrorist who bombs Mako reactors. Has a daughter he adopted from his best friend. Carries baggage for letting Shinra into his house. Failed leader. Takes his upseating in stride. Sits in the back seat the rest of the story.

Don't get me wrong, I love 7 and I love 7's characters, but that's just an example of how detailed and layered Square made 6's characters. 7 was a game with revolutionary graphics and gameplay. 6 was a story spun with gold at the SNES' peak performance.

These lists are impossible for me.

I can't objectively judge whether or not a game belongs on the list because of the nostalgia factor.

A list putting FF6 at the top puts a smile on my face, just because it was the first RPG I played through when I was 6 or 7 years old. I've played through it many times and it really takes me back each time.

I would've had to never played the game as a kid to give fair judgement compared to all the other great games that exist.

--------------------

stupid horoscope
wrong again

I think if ff6 were remade on xbox, they could do what was done in lost oddysey.

More details on all chars, and for an example:Keep text base if they really wanted.

ff6 is one of those games i think needs a remake on modern gen console bad.
Its simple and great for old consoles, but i personally would like to hear more about cyans honor, and lock cole's adventures, or edgar and sabim.

Its not a case for me of not being around, as i was definitely around, and i played it in its time, but i also think that replaying it and taking a step back after many years passed, has allowed me to look at it more objectively.

--------------------

We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 10th May 2013 05:04)

I think if ff6 were remade on xbox, they could do what was done in lost oddysey.

More details on all chars, and for an example:Keep text base if they really wanted.

ff6 is one of those games i think needs a remake on modern gen console bad.
Its simple and great for old consoles, but i personally would like to hear more about cyans honor, and lock cole's adventures, or edgar and sabim.

Its not a case for me of not being around, as i was definitely around, and i played it in its time, but i also think that replaying it and taking a step back after many years passed, has allowed me to look at it more objectively.

Here's what I don't get about that. The game in its current form is clearly not good enough to tell a good story or compete with modern games, yet apparently it's good enough to have you really interested in more of the story. Clearly something resonated through those outdated graphics.

My feelings are, that if there was a choice between a new FFVI remake and a good new Final Fantasy, I'd go new Final Fantasy every time, even if it's only interesting and not good.

--------------------

Praise Be To Helix!

I never said i didn't like ff6, i said that i think that i'm not sure about best title.
I love ff6, i'l repeat that, but i think a remake could help develop the characters background more.I really would like to know more about the characters, like setzer, sabim, edgar, locke and even kefka.

I still think dragon age origins characters beat all ff game characters in variety.
I was never really surprised in the direction ff characters took, and felt like they all had arch types from the previous games.

FF6's main issue i would say, is we really don't know much about some of the characters.Modern day remake could maybe add more stuff to know about them.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 11th May 2013 09:46

--------------------

We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 11th May 2013 09:42)

FF6's main issue i would say, is we really don't know much about some of the characters.Modern day remake could maybe add more stuff to know about them.

Never gonna happen. If Squeenix tried, there would be outrage, the fans would never be happy, ever. They'd bay for blood and the development team would be whipped through the streets.

--------------------

www.youtube.com/blinje
The victor sacrificed the vanquished to the heavens

Quote (Blinge Odonata @ 11th May 2013 08:45)

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 11th May 2013 09:42)

FF6's main issue i would say, is we really don't know much about  some of the characters.Modern day remake could maybe add more stuff to know about them.

Never gonna happen. If Squeenix tried, there would be outrage, the fans would never be happy, ever. They'd bay for blood and the development team would be whipped through the streets.

Well, speaking as maybe the biggest FFVI fan on the website, or at least one of the few that believes it is the best game ever made, I can say for myself that it wouldn't make me angry. To be honest, in fact, I'd love it. I just don't think the game needs it. It's already one of the best RPGs ever made; to me it is the best, so I don't need it. For that matter, neither does FFVII. It's one of the best already too.

Mslayer, you brought up Dragon Age Origins. To me, it was not on the same level of Mass Effect, let alone the golden age Final Fantasy games.

To Squenix, make good Final Fantasy games is all that I ask.

--------------------

Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 12th May 2013 23:36)

I just don't think the game needs it

Which means its highly likely that Squeenix would have a couple of flaws in a remake, minor or major. A Perfect piece of art is damn near or fully impossible, and a perfect work would be needed not to anger a huge swathe of FFVI fans. That's what I'm getting at.

--------------------

www.youtube.com/blinje
The victor sacrificed the vanquished to the heavens

Quote (Blinge Odonata @ 13th May 2013 13:50)

Quote (BlitzSage @ 12th May 2013 23:36)

I just don't think the game needs it

Which means its highly likely that Squeenix would have a couple of flaws in a remake, minor or major. A Perfect piece of art is damn near or fully impossible, and a perfect work would be needed not to anger a huge swathe of FFVI fans. That's what I'm getting at.

Yeah I agree. I think that some people who argue for FFVI or FFVII remakes forget that with graphical changes, adding VO, etc., may fix some problems, but it is almost guaranteed to change the aesthetic of the game. A lot of what is so powerful emotionally about FFVI is that they're doing it with limited technology, relatively speaking. I would much rather see them create a new cast of characters that we can get to know and love with that new tech. If Square has a problem, it's that they haven't done that in a while. Square can't survive just by living in its golden years, and each remake project takes a team off of work on a new project.

--------------------

Praise Be To Helix!

As an aging gamer, its easier to get into older games, because i grew up with them.For really young audiences, they may not appreciate the old much unless their parents show them to appreciate older stuff.

FF6 and FF7 are ancient history now.

FF6 is a great game sure, but i see possibility for improvement without damaging the actual original storyline.To do this, it would require utmost care as to not butcher the original game.

--------------------

We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote

damaging the actual original storyline.To do this, it would require utmost care as to not butcher the original game.

Whether something "damages" the storyline is a judgement call. It's not something that can be objectively determined (not easily at least). And if you're a company leader you need to figure out what your fans are most willing to buy and least likely to raise a fuss about.

--------------------

Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

I agree Glen on listening to what the fans want in their games.I also think that ff6 has the potential to attract new fans as does ff7.

I think with new technology, more can be done to update it a little and still not overdo it to destroy the game completely.I think one of ff6's strong points and weak points, is its limitations.

I think that its humor for one thing, is something some other games lack, and it hurts the game.Some might argue they don't like kefka because he is silly, and they don't like silly villains because they can't take it seriously.

I think humor is a point that helps ff6 to its greatness, because it contrasts the seriousness of some moments to make it not overly depressing, and it helps make some characters more memorable.One of ff6's biggest hitters, is every character gets equal attention, giving them just enough to get enough development, something which not all games get equally.

--------------------

We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 14th May 2013 05:34)

As an aging gamer, its easier to get into older games, because i grew up with them.For really young audiences, they may not appreciate the old much unless their parents show them to appreciate older stuff.

FF6 and FF7 are ancient history now.

FF6 is a great game sure, but i see possibility for improvement without damaging the actual original storyline.To do this, it would require utmost care as to not butcher the original game.

I don't buy that argument, because that would invalidate a massive chunk of video games as ancient history. I first played FFVI when I was 16, and it was my first Final Fantasy. I played FFVII about three years ago, and Chrono Trigger when it first came out on Virtual Console. I was playing those games at the same time as contemporary games, and was just as impressed with them, even more in fact.

I think something could be made that's great, because it's a great story. But I wouldn't say it would be an improvement. It would be different.

Quote

I think humor is a point that helps ff6 to its greatness, because it contrasts the seriousness of some moments to make it not overly depressing, and it helps make some characters more memorable.One of ff6's biggest hitters, is every character gets equal attention, giving them just enough to get enough development, something which not all games get equally.

But then you argue that the game is ancient history. It did things that other games haven't done... so why does it need a remake? Again, I'm not saying that I wouldn't want to play it, but do we need a remake? I don't think so.

Quote

Whether something "damages" the storyline is a judgement call. It's not something that can be objectively determined (not easily at least). And if you're a company leader you need to figure out what your fans are most willing to buy and least likely to raise a fuss about.

If you're the owner of Square, then sure. But if you're a game designer, that's the last way you should make decisions. Making games that you think will please fans is probably the easiest way to not please fans. If the designers want to remake it, they should, but not because the fans want it. That's the reason I want Square's designers to work on new ideas, something their hearts are into.

--------------------

Praise Be To Helix!

question 1 for you blitzsage:Are you saying that ff6 and ff7 are so flawless, that no improvement can be made? FFX got a remake.Not sure how its going to turn out, but why can't ff6 get one too?

Question 2:How would you keep ff6 in the minds of new gamers? FF6 and ff7 are very old games, and new gamers are spoiled by high def graphics.I'm not saying a total overhaul, but it would be nice to see what locke would look like in 3d, and sabim, and cyan, and even terra and celes.

Question 3:How would you make a call to making something that fans might enjoy? FFXIII was a disater, and i hear the gameplay in XIII-2 is worse, along with needing to purchase the ending.

I will return to the original sentiment of mine:Just because i think ff6 is great, doesn't mean its flawless.You can appreciate and even enjoy a game, and even forgive flaws as long as they aren't too large that they are hard to overlook.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 17th May 2013 10:45

--------------------

We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

The difference is FFX is getting a slight update to make it prettier and not stretch on HDTVs. With VI you are completely changing the format and carrying across multiple generations, thereby making drastic changes to the game. Same with VII essentially.

--------------------

I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...

Quote (Sherick @ 17th May 2013 15:48)

The difference is FFX is getting a slight update to make it prettier and not stretch on HDTVs. With VI you are completely changing the format and carrying across multiple generations, thereby making drastic changes to the game. Same with VII essentially.

Very good point. It wouldn't just be an update, at least for FFVI. And I never said FFVII was flawless. And I don't think I've ever said FFVI didn't have flaws. But I did say that they were great games, and a lot of stuff that worked in those games would probably not work with new HD digital 3D graphics. Also, not saying it wouldn't work. But I am saying that it'll take a lot of work and a group of people that are really devoted to it. I don't know if that group is still there and/or will be willing to put that much energy into that project. FFVI seems to be very well-respected here, but I don't know how Squenix designers feel about it. But with FFVII, a lot of its problems were not graphical, and wouldn't be fixed with just those changes.

But to your second question, like I said, I played these games right along side of games like Mass Effect, Bioshock and Fallout 3. And it seems like there are new fans of the older games made each year.

--------------------

Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 17th May 2013 10:42)

How would you keep ff6 in the minds of new gamers? FF6 and ff7 are very old games, and new gamers are spoiled by high def graphics.

You don't.

The game itself and its reputation is enough to earn it new fans, and it is still earning new fans. I played it for the first time in 2008, it was my first final fantasy also. It was also the first snes game I emulated, having stuck to modern consoles and pc games at the time. What brought me to play VI over the others, and why FF in the first place? Because of its reputation and legacy.
I appreciate you want a game you love to find a new audience, but people who eschew older games simply because of the dated graphics don't deserve to play them.

Maybe it's time to let go

--------------------

www.youtube.com/blinje
The victor sacrificed the vanquished to the heavens

So:
I've been following this topic, (skimming only a bare minimum, I swear it,) and I haven't felt like I have anything to contribute, since I have somewhat mixed feelings on the subject, and still haven't thought it out enough, I think. GoGo's opinion up there reflects my own to a certain extent.

Anyway:


A big point of contention seems to be about whether or not a remake should happen. As I read the replies and arguments, a lot of people seem to be concerned with the aesthetic being changed, and wonder how such a thing as FFVI could be pulled off in an updated format.

My thing is this:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again-- Final Fantasy VI is a video game opera. And more specifically a Wagnerian one.

Quote ( wikipedia)

Opera (English plural: operas; Italian plural: opere) is an art form in which singers and musicians perform a dramatic work combining text (called a libretto) and musical score, usually in a theatrical setting.[1] Opera incorporates many of the elements of spoken theatre, such as acting, scenery, and costumes and sometimes includes dance. The performance is typically given in an opera house, accompanied by an orchestra or smaller musical ensemble...

...Wagner was one of the most revolutionary and controversial composers in musical history. Starting under the influence of Weber and Meyerbeer, he gradually evolved a new concept of opera as a Gesamtkunstwerk (a "complete work of art"), a fusion of music, poetry and painting. He greatly increased the role and power of the orchestra, creating scores with a complex web of leitmotifs, recurring themes often associated with the characters and concepts of the drama...

This seems at least somewhat true of FFVI. Given that FFVI is a text-based video game, I admit, I'm taking at least a little liberty. Still, I think it's quite reasonable to imagine that the creators of the game had this idea of a musical stage play at least partically in mind. I mean, first of all, the game is set in a steampunk setting, which wikipedia tells me is comparable to the latter half of the nineteenth century, which is the same time Wagner was alive. Secondly, in the game itself, the motif of fine arts, high society, and opera is referenced all the time. And this is only one of many motifs, both musically and conceptually, which reoccur over and over throughout the game.

Everything in FFVI seems like it's being preformed on a stage to me, and at the end of the game, the final scenes have cuts in between them, where it will say "(name player chose for character) as (actual first and last name of the character in question)". The final scenes before the Square-staff credits, are the credits for the actors of the play (including "You", the player and "director"), who always get their due before the guys who were just doing all the background work.


Now, here's the thing. If a recreation of FFVI were made, the hardest part, I think, would be the recreation of the feeling of the "stage". The 2D era technology FFVI used was absolutely perfect for what the creators of the game were trying to do, and I know that the development of FFVI was heavily based around getting the maximum use out of the technology of the Super Nintendo. So the big challenge here, so far as I can figure, is finding a way to recreate an aesthetic that isn't just based on characters, music, and story, but the medium used to link these things together as well. A complete work of art indeed! Whether this is possible or not, I can't say, but at the very least, I think it's fair to say that such a task would be extremely difficult.


This post has been edited by MogMaster on 19th May 2013 11:48

--------------------

If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Quote (MogMaster @ 19th May 2013 11:24)

Now, here's the thing. If a recreation of FFVI were made, the hardest part, I think, would be the recreation of the feeling of the "stage". The 2D era technology FFVI used was absolutely perfect for what the creators of the game were trying to do, and I know that the development of FFVI was heavily based around getting the maximum use out of the technology of the Super Nintendo. So the big challenge here, so far as I can figure, is finding a way to recreate an aesthetic that isn't just based on characters, music, and story, but the medium used to link these things together as well. A complete work of art indeed! Whether this is possible or not, I can't say, but at the very least, I think it's fair to say that such a task would be extremely difficult.

It's a stretch but I think you're right. FFIX was very similar in having a massive cast of characters, lots of references to theatre, and lots of different plots being advances at once in many different locations, some of which reflected the main plot. In that respect getting the feel of theatre into 3D games has been done very successfully in FFIX.

--------------------

Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

IX may be theater, but rather than an Opera, it's closer to a stage play, which, like you said, is oh so subtly pointed to several times throughout the game. IX, like the play you preform in right in the beginning, is a tragedy like Oedipus Rex, or Hamlet (Lord Avon, the author of the play in fact, is a reference to Shakespeare's birthplace. Actually, isn't Baku's character in the play named King Lear? Edit: No, but according to this it was in the original Japanese.). I say this, because like these other tragedies, it deals with issues like fate, existential despair, free will, and death. I read an interview with the staff who worked on IX, and they said they changed the ending 7 whole times. This leads me to believe they were having trouble deciding whether or not Zidane should bite the bullet, or get saved by some Deus Ex Machina.

Edit

Edits: clarifications, minor errors. Holy dyslexia, Batman. I seriously put XI instead of IX like 3 times in this post ffs.

This post has been edited by MogMaster on 19th May 2013 15:34

--------------------

If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Is there a difference between opera and stage plays in terms of 3D games being able to match the feel of 2D games? Both have their fair share of theatrical moments and the difference between arias, soliloquies, characters to and froing on and off stage, and other typical conventions seem negligible to me. But yeah I could be missing some operatic conventions I don't know or not considered.

Also not to get too off topic but I think FFIX is just so huge I don't think the tone is necessarily a tragedy, even if the core central storyline is. It's whimsical and fanciful, quite a lot similar to FFVI. Both games have their fair share of existential despair, free will, and death.

I suppose one thing FFIX does to keep that kind of feeling is to keep a steady camera at the middle of the location quite a lot of the time, and make the plot / scripted locations seem like a stage with many entrances. Maybe that's what makes it retain that theatrical feeling in 3D? And I meant to write before FFIX isn't strictly 3D because of the 2D backgrounds. If we think about FFXII or XIII, keeping that style would be really difficult, I agree with you there! Not impossible though, if all the scripted plot scenes were made to look like FFIX.

--------------------

Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

VI and IX (and maybe IV) fall into the same operatic category, while VII, VIII and X fall into the cinematic category. VI and IX both have characters that are melodramatic, and there's not a major push for realism in the story. You get the sense that the characters are performing on a stage. VII, VIII and X try to push for a cinematic flair. VII starting with basically a conventional film-like action scene. There's less looking at the camera and winking, letting the audience know they're in on the gag. But this is why I think VI and IX work better than the rest of the series. Ironically, they don't attempt to create realistic characters, and because of this they're characters are much more believable.

The greatest example of this irony comes from VIII. Now, I personally really enjoyed VIII, though it has problems. After the dance, Squall and Quistis go to the secret area in the training center. They share what is a rather awkward moment where little emotion comes out. This is mostly because, for some reason, they had their character sprites deliver lines (often with some strange little shimmy revealing who's speaking) but the camera is commonly zoomed out, so you can't see the characters' reactions.

In contrast, view this scene from VI: Celes and Locke in Albrook. Even though they're sprites, they're more visible on the screen so their emotions are readable. They're clearly not realistic character depictions, and the scene is over-the-top. It's literally an operatic-style balcony scene. But it still hits for me even more than the cinematic games trying to make their characters believable.

This is also why IX has some of my favorite FF characters. Vivi is not realistically designed... he doesn't even have a face! But, he's probably my favorite FF character, because their design of Vivi touches upon this layer of innocence, and loneliness as well. Meanwhile, Steiner and Zidane are archetypal characters with exaggerated features, particularly Steiner. But I think it is because of this that the dialogue between Steiner and Zidane works so well.

These reflect the concept of the Uncanny Valley. When a character is realistically drawn, we can perceive the emotions, or lack thereof, present in their animation. If VI were ever to be remade, this is the main pitfall. Can they create just the right amount of realism and operatic tone to make VI's story work?

--------------------

Praise Be To Helix!