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Ah, top x lists. Defined solely to create arguments and page views among a site's readership, because nobody has ever agreed with such a list completely, ever. IGN knows this, as do we all, and right here I'm going to throw them some more page views out of the goodness of my own heart.

Well, not really. I'd have a hard time caring about this, given how generally without merit I find most of these lists, but this one is tailor-made for CoN: three of the games we cover are in the top five, and not one of them is Final Fantasy VII.

Don't worry, Final Fantasy VII is on there! While Square Enix claimed over a quarter of the spots on the overall list, the games we cover came in as follows:

• Final Fantasy VI: 1st
• Chrono Trigger: 2nd
• Final Fantasy IV: 5th
• Final Fantasy VII: 11th
• Final Fantasy Tactics: 14th
• Final Fantasy I: 73rd

The only game of ours that didn't get included was Final Fantasy V.

Enjoy arguing the list here, at least until they release a new list. Have fun - it's miserable to navigate.

Source: IGN

Wow...

I'm genuinely surprised, and despite my (almost shameless) love for VII, pleased to see that it didn't take the top spot by default!

That said, it does seem to be the usual 'one person's personal opinion becomes gospel' approach to these lists. I'm not going to go into too much of a geek rant, but it's disappointing to see Vagrant Story, BoF III and Legend of Dragoon feature so low on the list. How VIII, IX, and Fallout: New Vegas are as low as they are I simply can't fathom (even despite VIII's polarising effect).

My only other point which left me rather bemused - despite being given the #1 spot, VI's entry seems to have been hammered out in seconds and is a rather paltry exposition compared to the descriptions given for some of the much lower entries!

...and you're right - it's truly awful to navigate!

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We apologise for the inconvenience

Quote (Stiltzkin @ 17th September 2012 19:13)

My only other point which left me rather bemused - despite being given the #1 spot, VI's entry seems to have been hammered out in seconds and is a rather paltry exposition compared to the descriptions given for some of the much lower entries!

Yeah, what an anticlimax for somebody who's just read the entire list... that someone being yours truly. HUMPH



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The victor sacrificed the vanquished to the heavens

I like seeing Pokemon Red/Blue, Chrono Trigger and FFVI in the top 5, and I like Fallout 3 and ME1 in the top 10. Not that the lists mean anything, but this one seems to square up pretty well with my opinion. I would've liked to see FFIX at a higher position though.

Has anybody else noticed that Disgaea, is billed as "The ultimate turn based strategy R.P.G." that "perfected the genre" despite being ranked #45, 34 ranks lower than Final Fantasy Tactics? Both are great games but I personally feel this sort of internal inconsistency undermines the legitimacy of the list, as it suggests that it hasn't been scrutinized over as much as it should've been...

Yeah, 100 games is a lot and an impressive listing given that it's a genre where many people might struggle to name 5 that aren't made from the same publisher off the tops of their heads... However, recognition of the amount of work necessary in making larger lists is generally why people limit themselves to a top 10. :-P

Quote (Tonepoet @ 30th September 2012 06:16)

Has anybody else noticed that Disgaea, is billed as "The ultimate turn based strategy R.P.G." that "perfected the genre" despite being ranked #45, 34 ranks lower than Final Fantasy Tactics? Both are great games but I personally feel this sort of internal inconsistency undermines the legitimacy of the list, as it suggests that it hasn't been scrutinized over as much as it should've been...

Yeah, 100 games is a lot and an impressive listing given that it's a genre where many people might struggle to name 5 that aren't made from the same publisher off the tops of their heads... However, recognition of the amount of work necessary in making larger lists is generally why people limit themselves to a top 10. :-P

Well, I occasionally visit a website, unikgamer.com, which I believe I linked on this site when it was just starting out. I don't use the forums or anything, but it's good for just keeping tracks of different lists.

what I've noticed there, is that even doing a top 25 is extremely easy to be inconsistent with. I don't find it surprising that a list of that kind has those types of issues.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but my feeling about the list is that, in reality, their opinion is no more, no less than anyone else's. It does feel great as a devoted fan of both FFVI and Chrono Trigger to see them get that kind of praise, but I remember when IGN was putting FFVI in the 50's on their lists. And plus, it feels good to have anyone praise FF. Heck that's part of why I like this site.

(and yeah, I don't think I've even played 50 games, so I could'nt even do it by default)

Just looking at the list, Square is like the Beatles of JRPGs. Almost every album/game is on the best album/game list.

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Praise Be To Helix!

As much of a Squeenix fangirl I am, have to say I'm pretty disappointed that a Dragon Quest title didn't make it into the top 10

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kame, tortue, tortuga, schildkröte, tartaruga, turtle

"Arthur Dent?"
"Yes."
"Arthur Philip Dent?"
"Yes."
"You're a total knee biter."

I found it to be a fairly accurate list, given what it's scope of "best" seemed to be. A lot of it wasn't necessarily the execution of any given component/mechanic of the genre, so much as they weighted the credit for a game based on how it introduced, or made a component/mechanic popular, in the RPG genre. Of course, there was some fan-service here, and at least some bias is suspect.

I myself, despite loving FFVI, have to wonder at it being number 1 on the list. Even though I, too, once upon a time should have put FFVI at the top of the list, I feel like I've since become a much bigger fan of IV, for a lot of reasons.

I found it interesting that the Fallout series jumped around on the list, with New Vegas placing 89 or something, and Fallout 3 placing 10th, and all the others jumbled a bit inbetween. The Elder Scrolls, naturally (and a bit to my chagrin,) went from Morrowind at the lowest, to Skyrim placing highest. Mass Effect placed with 1 at the highest. Demon/Dark Souls placed with Demon in the 80's and Dark at 18. FF, of course, was strewn about the list, as you can see from Rangers post. Diablo placed with III at the lowest, DI in the middle somewhere, and DII in the top ten. These are just arbitrary statistics I made note of. It seemed, to me, the most fruitful way of pinpointing the criterion for "best" in the poll.

I will say, it has occurred to me, that FFVII, despite being cock-of-the-Square-Enix-walk all these years, being placed at #11 on the list, may perhaps indicate a couple things.

1) People are starting to be dazzled less by graphics, the limits of what's graphically achievable now being reached. Because of this, we've stopped looking at what is more realistic, and what was done best at the time, given the equipment available. Also, not even what was necessarily the most realistic available graphics, but which ones worked best with the game that was being made.

2) FFVII, no longer having even remotely good graphics by today's standards, is just grouped into the same category of "bad graphic old video game" as FFVI. In other words, everything old is the same age.

In truth, it's probably some mixture of these two.

This post has been edited by MogMaster on 2nd October 2012 04:51

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

I think that FFIV deserves a high spot on the list. It was a pioneer for JRPGs and for storytelling in games. I think it still holds up as a great game, but it lacks the polish of some of FFVI and Chrono Trigger. I would strongly defend CT and FFVI as the top two positions. Outside of the series, I would also defend one of the Pokemon games, either Red/Blue or Gold/Silver as the top two or three.

FFVII: I think that it's suffering from being part of the PSX gen. Comparatively, those graphics don't seem to age as well as SNES graphics. But I think that a lot of it is unwarranted. I don't disagree with 11. I think that that is right.

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Praise Be To Helix!

I'm so happy that Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI rated highly, as well as Final Fantasy IV.

Though it's tragic that Final Fantasy IX was low and Final Fantasy V didn't get a mention. I can understand why Final Fantasy VIII was quite low as not many people enjoy it, which is understandable.

Though Final Fantasy V should of least been in the top 30 at least. The GBA version, not the terrible PlayStation translation. Uugh !

Final Fantasy VII I may get flamed for saying this was a little too high. While it is a good game it's not that great, maybe 13- 20 th spot but not close to the top 10. But I guess that I'm the odd one out here.

Also happy that Final Fantasy XIII didn't get included that game is awful. Maybe Square will read this and get some hints.

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Top Three fave Final Fantasies Final Fantasy VIII, Final Fantasy IX, Final Fantasy V [ GBA ]

Well, lists of this kind are biased and etc, but i'm happy that ME3 or FFXIII were not in the top 10 (these days, you never know). And FFVI being the n1 sure is a great "good taste on games" indicator.

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Live Long and Prosper!

Quote (Kirchewasser @ 7th October 2012 22:03)

Well, lists of this kind are biased and etc, but i'm happy that ME3 or FFXIII were not in the top 10 (these days, you never know). And FFVI being the n1 sure is a great "good taste on games" indicator.

For ME3, idk, in a couple years a high ranking may be justified. That game was near perfect IMO. If I were to do a list like that, I would have the games included be at least five years old. That way we can at least partially see how a game can maintain popularity after a length of time.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Thanks Josh for posting about this! This topic got me thinking so much I actually made a talkshow entry for RadioPSI about this! Kame's show on IGN's Top 100 RPGs

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kame, tortue, tortuga, schildkröte, tartaruga, turtle

"Arthur Dent?"
"Yes."
"Arthur Philip Dent?"
"Yes."
"You're a total knee biter."

Quote (Kame @ 9th October 2012 03:35)

Thanks Josh for posting about this! This topic got me thinking so much I actually made a talkshow entry for RadioPSI about this! Kame's show on IGN's Top 100 RPGs

Can you repost that in another format? I don't know how to play oggs. Thanks.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 9th October 2012 16:05)

Quote (Kame @ 9th October 2012 03:35)

Thanks Josh for posting about this! This topic got me thinking so much I actually made a talkshow entry for RadioPSI about this! Kame's show on IGN's Top 100 RPGs

Can you repost that in another format? I don't know how to play oggs. Thanks.

Sorry, that's how the archives are stored. Winamp or VLC can play it.

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kame, tortue, tortuga, schildkröte, tartaruga, turtle

"Arthur Dent?"
"Yes."
"Arthur Philip Dent?"
"Yes."
"You're a total knee biter."

Quote (Kame @ 10th October 2012 02:03)

Quote (BlitzSage @ 9th October 2012 16:05)

Quote (Kame @ 9th October 2012 03:35)

Thanks Josh for posting about this! This topic got me thinking so much I actually made a talkshow entry for RadioPSI about this! Kame's show on IGN's Top 100 RPGs

Can you repost that in another format? I don't know how to play oggs. Thanks.

Sorry, that's how the archives are stored. Winamp or VLC can play it.

Okay, thanks. I'll try and listen to it soon.

Edit:

Okay, after listening to the first part of your podcast, I was reminded that my soapbox was gathering dust so I thought I'd bring it back out.

The worst pet peeve I have about these lists is the lack of an age limit. They create a list that is supposed to span "all time" (which implies that these games have withstood the test of time). Then, they put a game that is less than a year old in the top ten (Skyrim at #7). Now, how can a game stand the test of time when it has not even been out a year, and have a four place lead over FFVII: the game that popularized the genre? It's absurd. If I made a list like that, I would either exclude current generation games or I would not allow games released less than five years after the year of the list's release (so, if the list were posted in 2012, only games released up to December 31, 2007 would be elligible).

This post has been edited by BlitzSage on 11th October 2012 06:10

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Praise Be To Helix!

I'm slightly annoyed that Chrono Trigger didn't top Final Fantasy VI. I think CT is a better game than FFVI. Though they ended up with the top two spots anyway, so it's not like that matters much.

I see they included western RPGs in this list, which mixes it up a bit. I haven't played WRPGs so I really can't say much about how they compare, honestly.

Disappointed that Super Mario RPG is only #21--I find it so much fun that it's the only RPG I've played more than once through the whole way--but at least it's on the list at a pretty decent position.

Surprised FFTA made it onto the list. I thought the fan-hate for it might have thrown it off.

And I see late-bloomer (in the west) Fire Emblem made it too. Seems like Earthbound and Ys made the list too.

Regarding Final Fantasy IV--and for that matter, Earthbound--I think there's an interesting point to ponder regarding influence and quality. As someone else here has pointed out, FFIV lacks polish, compared to FFVI and even FFV. This especially applies to the U.S. release, FFII (SNES). But on the other hand, it was quite influential in helping to set the stage for later console RPGs. I wouldn't rate it very high because the game is a bit too mediocre for me to give it top billing, but I can see the reasoning behind saying it was a big deal.

That, and apparently it retains enough fan-following that Squenix can milk it with several remakes.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 31st October 2012 18:25)

I'm slightly annoyed that Chrono Trigger didn't top Final Fantasy VI. I think CT is a better game than FFVI. Though they ended up with the top two spots anyway, so it's not like that matters much.

It's hard to necessarily argue that, because over this past year CT has been firmly established as one one of my top three favorite RPGs. But even though CT is impressive, I still think that FFVI is superior. I think it's story is much better, and it's presentation is better also. FFVI is IMO because of its ambition deserves to represent the RPG genre. It's each member of the Square team at the top of their game, doing their best work.

But once again, it's hard to say that because, to me, those are the two best JRPGs ever, along with Pokemon Blue. The other positions on the list can change at times, but CT, FFVI and Pokemon should be the RPGs that other RPGs aspire to be.

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Praise Be To Helix!

I would strongly disagree with Pokémon RBY being anywhere near the best, in terms of their own quality. Sure they were extremely influential, but on their own merits, they leave a lot to be desired in terms of design and programming quality, what with the number of glitches and bugs left in. (You can't really say that bug being psychic's only actual weakness is a good thing, can you?)

As for FFVI vs. CT, I think that both are very close in quality, but CT I think has fewer bugs and rough features (such as maxing out damage too easily), less linearity and greater sense of agency (such as all the little things you can do with time travel), and a slightly more polished and interesting experience all around (such as a battle system where spacing matters, and more detailed sprites). Also, the characters were each more fleshed-out, rather than having a larger cast with less evenly-developed characters, some of which were less relatable than others.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 31st October 2012 21:10)

I would strongly disagree with Pokémon RBY being anywhere near the best, in terms of their own quality. Sure they were extremely influential, but on their own merits, they leave a lot to be desired in terms of design and programming quality, what with the number of glitches and bugs left in. (You can't really say that bug being psychic's only actual weakness is a good thing, can you?)

As for FFVI vs. CT, I think that both are very close in quality, but CT I think has fewer bugs and rough features (such as maxing out damage too easily), less linearity and greater sense of agency (such as all the little things you can do with time travel), and a slightly more polished and interesting experience all around (such as a battle system where spacing matters, and more detailed sprites). Also, the characters were each more fleshed-out, rather than having a larger cast with less evenly-developed characters, some of which were less relatable than others.

It may be sentimental, but for Pokemon games I've gone back to each gen. but gen. 1 holds up better than any other for me. There are certain points in the story that I prefer to the games that followed. The way they used Gary as the rival that led to the championship battle was epic despite the limited technology (and that the screen was smaller than the text bos I'm writing in!). Plus, the black and white aesthetic, originality of concept, superiority of sprite designs of pokemon (IMO). Not to mention that the bugs (which are not a deal breaker for me) do not deter from my belief that Pokemon has fantastic gameplay and customization, and it perfected the collectionist gameplay concept. Lastly, the other games have added several things to the series, but in retrospect having only 151 pokemon to catch makes catching them all feasable. And the simplicity makes the game stand out in a series where they all seem to run together.

No argument about CT's polish, especially in the gameplay department. But in my view the characters in CT were more archetypal, and the story was more comic-book-like. The most interesting characters are NPCs like Azala. Obviously Crono isn't, because he's a silent protagonist, in the same vein as Link. Link and Crono allow you to experience freely the story. But FFVI creates a pallet that allows the player to glance into the 12 maain characters one at a time. I think it's surprising with such a large cast that they're capable of developing the characters they do, which is a testament to how well it's told. The other FFs are great, but they have had a tendency of being confusing or nebulous at times. Their stories are not bad, but they can have hastily presented plot twists that can lead to convolution. CT avoids this by simplifying its story, and introducing more player control, brilliantly and with polish. But FFVI takes the common FFVI story, simplifies it, and then lets each character the time to build in the spotlight. Take Sabin's scenario. The entire lengthy portion of the game to slow down the plot and allow four different characters to emote on screen. FFVI often slows down and moves away from the main story, because the objective is always very clear, therefore with the central story arch always visible Square takes its time to deeply develop several characters. I think FFVI has this in common with Lord of the Rings. Both stories work so well because the central focus is clear (the Ring in LotR, Terra/Kefka in FFVI), but each give significant time to setting up characters and the environment.

But man, GMH, you've got me in a difficult place, because I could go off on CT too. The world(s) are so well constructed it's absurd. And I swear the game gets better and better, and by the time you get to the sidequests near the end (Genodome and Luca's sidequest) the game is cemented as one of the greatest games ever. I think they both deserve the spot, but FFVI and what steps it took for video game storytelling, and with the music, opera, artistic tone, and so on. But I strongly believe both deserve those two spots.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Now we all need to know something, it is a list on what is the best, not what revolutionized the most. Heck, Super Mario Bros was probably the gateway for ALL current video games, but can you really say that it is the best platformer ever existed? I don't even think that it would be in a top 20 for me. SMB3 I prefer much over the first.

With that being said, some people disagreed and some people agreed with FF6 being on the number one spot. Now personally, I agree with this. The cast and villain of the game really are the most iconic and compelling aspects of the game. The gameplay is down-sized because of its horrendous bugs, but that shouldn't lower a game's status. The story was pretty great on terms of how it was told, and that matters GREATLY with the game. As someone mentioned how Chrono Trigger should have been number 1, I respectively disagree with that. Yes, the gameplay was pretty amazing, and learning Tech's has always been cool, but I for one could not stand CT's characters. I'm sorry, Crono doesn't even talk which impedes development by a lot. In fact, the only two characters I enjoyed playing with were Frog and Magus. The characters really didn't have anything special in them. FF6 had some great characters (excluding Umaro and Gogo). Not only that, but it seems like they all had personal beef with Kefka. Crono, Ayla and Lucca all just seem like coincidental characters. This I found to be tremendously annoying.

On a third note, the most disappointing find why was seeing Xenogears excluded from the top 10. Forget even getting on the list, I almost feel offended that they decided to put it on the list only to make it halfway there. So it honestly gets beat to all those FPS WRPG's that seem to have cheated their way up there? Xenogears really did have the best plot of ANY video game hands down. Put opinions aside, 'best' may not seem like the most fitting, but rather most 'developed'. And you can most definitely be the most developed by fact. Putting aside the mediocre gameplay and second disc, for its story ALONE it, should have skyrocketed to the top 10 by default.

Lastly, I'm not surprised that Shining Force II didn't get top 10. Not too many usually play the SF games. It is however my 3rd favorite of all time. But putting Mario & Luigi: Partner's In Time??? That game could quite possibly the runner-up for worst RPG ever made. Superstar Saga was literally LEAPS AND BOUNDS better than Partner's In Time.

Suikoden II at 44 was also a bad idea. That one needed much more recognition. Same with Vagrant Story. Really? 94?

So although it is opinionated, they made some people facepalm with this list. But overall, it is pretty okay'ish.

My top 10

#1 - Suikoden II
#2 - Xenogears
#3 - Shining Force II
#4 - Final Fantasy VI
#5 - Dragon Warrior III
#6 - Breath of Fire II
#7 - Vagrant Story
#8 - Lufia II
#9 - Shadow Hearts: Covenant
#10 - Tales of Symphonia

Quote

The gameplay is down-sized because of its horrendous bugs, but that shouldn't lower a game's status.

I disagree. It's presented as a game, using game mechanics as part of the means of experience, so I think it's fair to count game mechanics in one's evaluation of the game.

That said, that's not the only reason I prefer Chrono Trigger by a hair; I feel that CT's story presentation, somehow (I think because the setting details fit together better), is also slightly better than FFVI's.

On the other hand, I agree with you that legacy or industry impact should NOT be a factor.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 7th December 2012 21:40)

Quote

The gameplay is down-sized because of its horrendous bugs, but that shouldn't lower a game's status.

I disagree. It's presented as a game, using game mechanics as part of the means of experience, so I think it's fair to count game mechanics in one's evaluation of the game.

That said, that's not the only reason I prefer Chrono Trigger by a hair; I feel that CT's story presentation, somehow (I think because the setting details fit together better), is also slightly better than FFVI's.

On the other hand, I agree with you that legacy or industry impact should NOT be a factor.

I think that bugs should be taken into account, but when I think "horrendous bugs," I think of deal breakers. And I don't think that FFVI has anything of that magnitude. In fact, most of it's bugs are either fun or avoidable (ex. Vanish/Doom doesn't have to be used, but it's not horrendous and it's still a little fun in my view). Also, normally when I talk about FFVI I often just focus on the story, and this is admittingly misleading. I don't think it's downsized at all. I think that FFVI's gameplay is highly streamlined, a feature that many RPG gameplay systems don't have. It doesn't slow down the pace of the game and it's still very entertaining.

To GMH: Do you mean presentation in terms of atmosphere, art design, etc.? I guess it's debatable. Even with my bias I can admit that CT's atmosphere is fantastic. But I just feel that, even if that's the case (which is still debatable) I still think that the plot and characterization is more intricate in VI. Even though the characters are presented in a great atmosphere in CT, individually most of them are fairly straight-forward with little mystery. The characters in VI often have me questioning their motives and thought-patterns, which is to me a sign of stronger character development.

But remember, in risk of weakening my position, VI is the game I have history with (it brought me here, after all) and it's the game I root for. But I do have a great deal of history with CT now also. Early one, I dismissed it, and I was biased against it. But I gave it a second chance and it really surprised me, and I then became taken by it. For me, it wasn't just the atmosphere, but it was the depth of the story, a depth I didn't expect. I've talked about it numerous times, but the sidequests near the end, and as the game progressed with Azala and the Ice Age portion took the game to higher levels for me. I originally just treated it like a simple, light-heart, comic book-like adventure story (because that's how the characters are presented to me). But that changed during the game's second half. I have to admit, that while it's not as close for me, it has gotten closer over the past year.



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Praise Be To Helix!

By "presentation" I meant primarily the script and event pacing, as well as smaller details like dramatic value of the music, how well the graphical appearance serves the game's setting and story, etc.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 9th December 2012 23:13)

By "presentation" I meant primarily the script and event pacing, as well as smaller details like dramatic value of the music, how well the graphical appearance serves the game's setting and story, etc.

Oh, okay. CT may very well be paced better, but it has less to tell, strictly in terms of plot. I just mean "less" in that it's shorter than FFVI, not "less" as in lesser in quality.

But I think I agree about the pacing, especially how it makes it more replayable. Sitting here now, I know it wouldn't take very long to start and finish CT, while FFVI can be a bit of an ordeal (we had a topic about that here recently, if I remember correctly).

I think it's comparable to The Hobbit versus The Lord of the Rings (the books more than the movies). The Lord of the Rings is epic, in scope as well as length, so it takes a lot of energy to get through. The Hobbit, on the other hand, is more accessible, and also more exciting. But like The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, FFVI and CT are great, so you can't go wrong with either one.

As for graphics, I'm not sure which I give the edge to. The maps in CT are probably better (the Zeal Palace area is fantastic), but the monster and character design in FFVI is better, in my opinion (this is because the FFVI enemies are static, so they had more detail in the art designs). Music's difficult too. I think the hooks in CT are great (like the Cathedral, and the Intro theme), but the FFVI soundtrack on the whole is more intricate and complex, more impressive musically. In short, individual tracks CT has great songs, but the FFVI soundtrack as a singular work is better to me.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Glenn Magus Harvey,8th December 2012 01:40]

Quote

That said, that's not the only reason I prefer Chrono Trigger by a hair; I feel that CT's story presentation, somehow (I think because the setting details fit together better), is also slightly better than FFVI's.

On the other hand, I agree with you that legacy or industry impact should NOT be a factor.

The presentation of Chrono Trigger seemed a bit..lacking at the beginning. You don't even really get a sense of the villain up until 2300 AD. Right away in FFVI you see Kefka controlling Terra. You also have plot development and a unique atmosphere within SECONDS of the game.

Going balls deep into CT's plot. You wake up in your house, and go to a festival in the year 1000 AD. Even when Chrono and Lucca time travel, they're just getting Marle back. In fact, you don't gain any extra info except *saving Marle* from the past. Nothing extraordinary goes on until AFTER exploring Manolia Cathedral. By that time in FFVI, Terra is already escaping from the empire and possibly even Edgar's Castle. Heck, if anything Kefka already caused a bit of catastrophe and we're not even a few hours in. So I guess I respectfully disagree with Plot Presentation.

I've made multiple edits, but I wanted to add that I like CT overall as a game and am not trying in any way to "bash" it. The people over at GFaqs tend to take my posts a bit TOO seriously.

This post has been edited by UnderratedGamer on 10th December 2012 18:58

I think FFVI did a better job hosting a complex setting with many details. On the other hand, CT went with a more straightforward plot that had greater emotional appeal.

It's that emotional appeal--that good sense of drama that I note in its pacing. Using the example cited above, comparing the revelation of the ultimate villain in each story: Kefka, as noted, was foreshadowed heavily as the ultimate villain, far before being officially revealed as such. Yes, the reveal was the culmination of one of the most dramatic build-ups in videogame history. So it's more like being told a story where you have some idea of what's going to happen, but you just don't know when the other shoe's gonna drop. On the other hand, you start out Chrono Trigger with no knowledge of Lavos, and as you go through the process of discovery in that game, part of that discovery is the realization that this giant space needle-beetle is going to destroy the world in the future, which gives you a quest to destroy it, even if it should involve a complicated path. That said, you find out about Lavos early on, and do indeed get directed up the wrong tree a few times before figuring out exactly what this Lavos thing is and how it works and how to defeat it, but that's more in line with the idea of discovery.

Both tell epic tales, but I feel that Chrono Trigger's storytelling is more engaging while Final Fantasy VI's storytelling is more distant from the audience.

Music-wise, both are roughly on par with each other, and I can't tell which is objectively better.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Quote (UnderratedGamer @ 6th December 2012 10:33)

My top 10

#1 - Suikoden II
#2 - Xenogears
#3 - Shining Force II
#4 - Final Fantasy VI
#5 - Dragon Warrior III
#6 - Breath of Fire II
#7 - Vagrant Story
#8 - Lufia II
#9 - Shadow Hearts: Covenant
#10 - Tales of Symphonia

I posted a thread about RPG top tens in response to this thread awhile back: Boom

And I won't take so much stock into any of these sorts of lists made by the big publications. They'll stick to the more popular classics for the top few spots, throw a couple obscure titles in the top 30 range for some cred,

And your list? Well, I like all of the games on it that I've played, but Xenogears having the best story ever? The last third of the plot is narrated to the players by people sitting in chairs! XG has its moments, but I felt that it wasn't as strong as some its PS1 contemporaries and starts way better than it ends.

And don't get me started on Tales of Fortunate Timing Because The GameCube Had No Decent RPGs. Symphonia's a good game, but I'm not sure it would even crack a list of my top 5 favorite Tales Of games.

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this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

What I liked about Chrono Trigger's story was not the main plot itself. Like you said, it doesn't try to have any mystery (despite the Magus part); you know what the main enemy is. What I loved about CT's story is two-fold: The symbolism within the different eras and the individual moments within the story.

Like I said in another forum topic, I'm quite political nowadays. The main surprise from Chrono Trigger was that it had a great deal of symbolism. Each era had a different power structure, where one group dominated another (Reptites over cavemen, Zeal Palace in the clouds, robots over humans, etc.). And in each era those structures are unstable and lead to disaster. In tis sense, it's as if Lavos is not the final boss, but time itself is the final boss.

I can't remember exactly what I felt when I first played FFVI, but I think that it was always clear to me that Kefka was the main threat. From the beginning, it is established that Kefka is off his hinges. The way this plays out though, is the reason I enjoy FFVI's story more than any other story in any other video game.

From the way I view it, FFVI's symbolism has a great deal to do with the insanity of imperialism. One may apply this to nuclear war, or simply to imperialistic actions in general. The entire first half revolves around two sides (even the protagonists) struggling to find the Espers in order to gain them as a weapon. While this dangerous, Cold War-like atmosphere unfolds, it allows a misanthropic psycho to treat it like some sick game, as if it is all playing out on a stage. To me, this is the emotional appeal of FFVI, because the characters witness their lives ripped apart by a madman (like Cyan, where you have his grief, and in the reverse is Kefka's glee). That's what's so great about Kefka: you can never really read him, or completely believe what he's saying. And this is the key, that the thurst for power will eventually lead to destruction of people's lives.

Chrono Trigger's emotion was felt by me only when the game began to become more philosophical about time nearer to the end: Lucca's mother, Reptites and Lavos, Genodome, and things of that sort.

Once again, I feel like I'm splitting hairs, because at some point it depends on what you like. Maybe I'm a "distant" kind of guy! Let me ask you something (maybe you've already indicated this) do you agree with IGN at least in that FFVI and CT are the top 2 RPGs?

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (laszlow @ 10th December 2012 21:00)

Quote (UnderratedGamer @ 6th December 2012 10:33)

My top 10

#1 - Suikoden II
#2 - Xenogears
#3 - Shining Force II
#4 - Final Fantasy VI
#5 - Dragon Warrior III
#6 - Breath of Fire II
#7 - Vagrant Story
#8 - Lufia II
#9 - Shadow Hearts: Covenant
#10 - Tales of Symphonia

I posted a thread about RPG top tens in response to this thread awhile back: Boom

And I won't take so much stock into any of these sorts of lists made by the big publications. They'll stick to the more popular classics for the top few spots, throw a couple obscure titles in the top 30 range for some cred,

Quote

And your list?  Well, I like all of the games on it that I've played, but Xenogears having the best story ever?  The last third of the plot is narrated to the players by people sitting in chairs!  XG has its moments, but I felt that it wasn't as strong as some its PS1 contemporaries and starts way better than it ends. 

And don't get me started on Tales of Fortunate Timing Because The GameCube Had No Decent RPGs.  Symphonia's a good game, but I'm not sure it would even crack a list of my top 5 favorite Tales Of games.

This is your opinion. Not fact, keep that in mind. One could name many faults about your list too.

This post has been edited by UnderratedGamer on 10th December 2012 23:25