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The time has finally come to try polyphasic (or Uberman) sleep, something that my friends and I have been contemplating for a number of months. It's basically where you condition your body to sleep in 15-20 minutes batches, six times a day, four hours apart. The conditioning leads to your body going into the proper deep sleep and REM within those minutes and therefore effectively counting for one and a half hours of regular sleep, if I understand it correctly. We're not going into this lightly; we'll be going for medical checks frequently and recording our individual progress. One of my two friends involved is a psychology and neuroscience student so he will be keeping a record of our behaviour.

The positives of polyphasic sleep are a huge gain in time, approximately an extra 35 hours a week, or 76 extra days a year. This fact alone made me want to try it. Going on reports I've read, people experience more lucid dreams and a general lack of tiredness, even after physical exercise.

There seem to be two major problems, a short-term and a long-term. The short-term is just getting into the cycle. In order to do this you have to force yourself into a routine of sleeping for effectively one and a half hours a day for about two weeks before the transition is complete. This is going to be extremely hard, and I understand that the majority of people fail at this. The long-term challenge is fitting in with everybody else, especially my girlfriend. It will be hard to take some time out from whatever I'm doing to sleep and to fit the sleeping into my schedule, whether lectures or dinners or parties. The one reason I think I can achieve it is because I have two of my best friends doing this with as much, if not more, dedication than I do. Between us we'll be able to keep ourselves motivated and entertained. I believe the benefits far outweigh the consequences.

As for the criticisms I've read, they seem to be even less researched than the practice itself. One person claims that it stifles ingenuity, which pretty much made me stop reading it. Apparently Albert Einstein, Leonardo da Vinci, Thomas Edison and Benjamin Franklin all used this system in their lives at one time or another.

I just thought it is such an interesting concept and I wanted to share. What do you guys think of it? If you know anyone who's tried it or you've done it yourself then please don't hesitate to reply!

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Actually, I find this extremely interesting, as the ergonomic use of time is also a major concern of mine. The trouble, like you said, would be the first few weeks. I think Kramer tried this on Seinfeld once and woke up in the East River.

That aside, it's certainly something I've considered trying once or twice, and I do look forward to the results as well as gauging the quality of your posts in weeks to come. Hehe.

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Does it have to fit that specific cycle? The six batches every four hours, I mean.

I've always thought this was really interesting. I never have enough time in the day, so I think it'd be worthwhile along those lines. And when you think about how much of your life you're going to spend asleep... it's really sad, in my opinion.

The timing of the cycle seems to be the most difficult factor. But when you think about it, it's only 20 minutes every four hours. That's short enough that I feel it could be fairly excusable for the people around you.

I'd like to hear how this goes! As I said, I think it's a really cool concept that enters my mind from time to time.

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Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

I think that this is only something that could be practical if your lifestyle grants you the freedom to engage in this sort of practice; it doesn't strike me as the sort of practice someone working in an office would want to engage in, for example. I could understand the benefits of someone like Da Vinci engaging in these sleep patterns, as the man had considerable amount of freedom and time, but given the strains and pace of modern-day living, I don't see the use.

Not only does it set you at odds with the pace of everyone around you, but it demands that you be able to fit in those twenty minute intervals through out the day in a way that doesn't hinder your work, studies or social life.

I'm not much of a sleeper, and I can completely relate with the idea of having the extra time at your disposal as a boon, but it seems the cost is terribly high and as the positives are, as you said, not very well researched, it's hard to say whether or not the pay-off would be worth it, if there is one at all.

At any rate, I'm curious to see how it goes for you and look forward to any updates.

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Okay, but there was a goat!

Quote (MogMaster)

Actually, I find this extremely interesting, as the ergonomic use of time is also a major concern of mine. The trouble, like you said, would be the first few weeks. I think Kramer tried this on Seinfeld once and woke up in the East River.

That aside, it's certainly something I've considered trying once or twice, and I do look forward to the results as well as gauging the quality of your posts in weeks to come. Hehe.

Hah! I'm pleased we're keeping a record of everything just to make sure that nothing changes that we don't notice, like waking up with a knife in hand each time. I also spent some time ascertaining the law on what would happen if we did something awful whilst sleepwalking in a lucid dream state. I don't know much about any science whatsoever but I'm assured that these two effects are extremely unlikely to work concurrently as we would simply wake up. If you're interested, as long as we've never had a potentially dangerous lucid dream sleepwalk and the prosecution can't prove a causal link between us voluntarily sleeping in this way and whatever crime we'd committed, we'd be acquitted, but we'd probably also be sectioned and of course would have to stop sleeping like this. But anyway that's all just theoretical. I've probably put too much thought into that, now that I think about it.

Quote (Death Penalty)

Does it have to fit that specific cycle? The six batches every four hours, I mean.

To begin with we don't want to push it too far, I don't know if this if this is compulsory but that's what seems to be the common practice. By the end we've talked about going as far as we can with this when we've settled into the groove and the opportunity is there, but that's some months away yet.

Quote (Dragon_Fire)

I think that this is only something that could be practical if your lifestyle grants you the freedom to engage in this sort of practice; it doesn't strike me as the sort of practice someone working in an office would want to engage in, for example. I could understand the benefits of someone like Da Vinci engaging in these sleep patterns, as the man had considerable amount of freedom and time, but given the strains and pace of modern-day living, I don't see the use.

Not only does it set you at odds with the pace of everyone around you, but it demands that you be able to fit in those twenty minute intervals through out the day in a way that doesn't hinder your work, studies or social life.

Everything you've said is true. We have some bonuses that make the three of us able to circumvent some of these issues. First of all we all have long-distance relationships, and only see our girlfriends every fortnight or less. The second issue is university work, but I'm taking the view that I missed so many of my lectures last semester anyway due to sleeping in, so this can only be an improvement, even if I'm forced to leave one early each day. Furthermore I'll have more time to work in the night. None of us have a job either and I don't see any of us getting one in the near future. We've thought a lot about how to fit the sleeping into our schedule. Again, conveniently, we all live about five minutes walk from the university, so getting back shouldn't be a problem. If we're out at dinner I'm just going to have to say to them that I have a condition and need to sleep at the appointed time in their staff room; it's a bit presumptuous but I can't think of any alternative! As for going out to pubs, bars or clubs, I'll just have to go after a sleep and return before one, or crash at someone else's flat at the times. These factors don't dismiss the problems you stated, but I'm confident it will ease them a little. I think I'm quite lucky in a lot of ways.

The only way that this type of sleep pattern could work to an office-worker, like you said, would be if he could be given the time free to sleep by his manager, and eat before and after shifts. You're right it's extremely incompatible with modern living. It would make for a really interesting society if it was proven to have positive effects and no negatives, and everyone in the nation slept in this way. Think of the increase in national productivity and GDP. Everyone would eat more, spend more, work more and play more. A lot more shops would probably stay open 24 hours a day, and there would be sleeping areas in a lot of public buildings, a bit like prayer rooms. One thing I'm going to do with my free time is write an essay and a short story on this subject.

Another thing that's extremely interesting about this is the nature of it. Apparently a lot of animals sleep in this fashion, and babies also begin life by sleeping polyphasically until about the age of 1. I wonder if humans were always intended to sleep like this but we've been used to staying together and sleeping at night for protection since pre-historic times. I'll research this more and include it in the essay. It's also interesting from a religious point of view. I don't know about the Bible, but the Qu'ran states that a person must stay awake during sunlight hours and sleep during the night. This is something I also want to look further into. Can anyone tell me if the Bible mentions a similar principle?

This post has been edited by sweetdude on 27th January 2010 07:32

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

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Another thing that's extremely interesting about this is the nature of it. Apparently a lot of animals sleep in this fashion, and babies also begin life by sleeping polyphasically until about the age of 1. I wonder if humans were always intended to sleep like this but we've been used to staying together and sleeping at night for protection since pre-historic times. I'll research this more and include it in the essay. It's also interesting from a religious point of view. I don't know about the Bible, but the Qu'ran states that a person must stay awake during sunlight hours and sleep during the night. This is something I also want to look further into. Can anyone tell me if the Bible mentions a similar principle?

Wow, that first bit is actually really interesting. As far as the Bible mentioning anything like that, I would have to suggest no. Mind you, I haven't read the entire Bible, but I have never heard of such a rule. If it's anywhere in there, my guess would be that it's in Leviticus (whose other rules have mostly been recognized as overturned, with perhaps one notable exception)

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

I wanted to bring back this topic to see how it's going/ it went. Was it effective? Or was it impossible to do without inadvertently passing out at the wrong moments?

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"We're not tools of the government or anyone else. Fighting... fighting was the only thing I was ever good at, but at least I always fought for what I believed in." - Frank Yeager (a.k.a. Grey Fox)

There are a lot of stories associated with this. Frankly it was the most bizarre time of my life that I don't remember much of. We looked terrible. Everybody said we looked like sick on a white canvas (well not that exactly but you know what I mean). Functionality was minimal. Sleep was something I genuinely feared, because I never knew when it would hit me, and I was fighting it for weeks.

All in all it was a good effort but a failure. We did it for 7 weeks but couldn't get the rhythm to settle. I don't think it was a question of willpower, it just didn't work for us, but I believe that it can work for other people. And it's also worth mentioning that we did absolutely nothing for those 7 weeks. It's like having all the time in the world but no strength to get out of the chair.

The passing out problem wasn't really an issue for us because we were almost perpetually tired. There were some times when I'd have some energy and go to a lecture or something, but then the weight of sleep would drag after a certain amount of functional time. I imagine that if this was going on for longer, and the time spent not tired was increased, the quick drag of sleep would be stronger and might result in a collapse; more as an insistence of the body than a shutting down of the brain.

My advice is try it, it could work for anyone, but don't try to do anything else at the same time, and don't expect to look attractive either.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Polyphasic sleep is one of those things that sounds absolutely great on paper and everybody buys the story, but to me is just a little too unnatural to work.

As an avid lover of sleep, I'd have to say that it is one of the few aspects of Neuroscience that I am genuinely fascinated by (but by no means why I got into the field... that would be "complete chance and mostly no reason at all"). Unfortunately, it doesn't really seem to be in my school's best interest to devote much more than a lecture or two on the subject. Regardless, sleep is decidedly interesting.

That being said, I've always regarded polyphasic sleep patterns, particularly the more extreme ones (i.e. "Uberman") to be mostly urban myths. Who's to say that Da Vinci utilized the method, much less effectively. It's entirely plausible that he did, but I feel like it's too approachable as a throwaway example of why people try to defend in the process. I'm probably just a skeptic that doesn't want to believe that less sleep is the best option, but honestly I think the implications of polyphasic sleep are mostly false. I'm no expert, but based on my experience, I'd say the natural bodily functions demand sleep in relative chunks and during specific hours of the day. Furthermore, I can't see 15-20 minutes of "forced" REM sleep to be the restful equivalent of dramatically longer sleeping time. Even if they can be, it'd be because you've latched onto some kind of cycle of infinite sleep deprivation... and I can't see how that would be helpful at all.

Nonetheless, I'm kind of excited to hear someone who genuinely tried doing this (7 weeks, wow!). I'm glad that I can hear about some personal, first-hand results. You've definitely re-stirred my interest in sleep... even if that only leads to me taking a nap

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I find your lack of faith disturbing...

It's not entirely an urban myth. As a modern example, Margaret Thatcher* slept only 4 hours a day. There are plenty of video diaries out there that seem genuine. The people certainly look ill enough.

I agree that it is a kind of sleep deprivation cycle, but one thing we researched was that there needed to be one day per 30 devoted to sleeping as much as possible. There was an extensive test documentary we saw on YouTube from the 70s or 80s which concluded as much, and also proves it's possible and does eventually increase brain activity to those who are receptive to it -- for want of a better explanation. We didn't get that far because spending one day sleeping would've messed up what little ground we'd made into making a new standard. I think it's better to look at it as a way of cleansing all 'wasted' time sleeping. Eventually that will include cutting sleep that is essential. It's a necessary sacrifice, however. I'd probably agree with you know that it's a little unnatural in this respect, but still possible. One day I might give it another blast now I know what to prepare for. Never underestimate how beautiful you look until you do this, and how awful you look during it.

I'm glad that I've put sleeping back on your agenda! We need some quality answers for all the conjecture and theories out there.

*(first female British PM, hatred figure to pretty much everyone above Hadrian's Wall)

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Sweet, in regards to your question about te bible. I was made to read the entire book, cover to cover, a few times when I was younger. I couldn't tell you where it is now, but there is a passage that mentions the need for humans to sleep at night, not because it's healthy scientifically, but rather because 'evil is out at night and you need to stay away from it'.

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

I suppose I should probably bump this thread with an update on my side. After first hearing about this sleep schedule from this very thread last year, I was very interested in trying it. Unfortunately, being enrolled full-time in school didn't really give me the opportunity to try it because the adjustment period is so harsh. I tried it during Winter break (late December/early January) and was not able to fully adjust. I stayed on the schedule for only 5 days before oversleeping for 8 hrs. Hahahaha. I am a very deep sleeper and extremely resistant to alarms, so it was most definitely not a practical schedule for me.

I have been struggling with a sleep disorder known as delayed sleep phase syndrome for awhile now, and it started getting really bad around November of last year. More or less, my body thinks a day is 27 hours long, so it is impossible for me to stay with a 24-hour cycle in a healthy manner. I tried every known treatment for this, and none of them were even remotely successful (the most successful treatment worked for exactly 10 days). I felt it was time to try the polyphasic (or "Uberman", if you want to call it that) schedule once again.

My summer is basically completely free, so it is the perfect time to try. I bought this alarm clock, and use it for the shaker feature, not the actual alarm itself. My body doesn't react to sounds, but it does react to physical stimuli like shaking. Armed with an alarm clock that can actually consistently wake me, and a lot of free time, I decided to begin.

I started on Monday, June 27th. I can normally go 40 or so hours before my body hits a wall, so I decided to just not sleep at all for the first two days. The transition into this schedule requires that you are sleep deprived at the beginning so your body can adjust to get the right sleep cycles during the naps. Instead of taking the naps while I wasn't tired, I just waited 30-something hours until I could actually fall into a deep sleep. I documented how I was feeling every few hours for the past two weeks, but it isn't worth sharing all of that. I'll just summarize the results:

Days 1 & 2: As mentioned above, I didn't sleep until very late on the second day (Tuesday, 6-28-2011). I was having no real issues at this point, but I have stayed up far longer on less sleep.

Days 3 & 4: Strangely, I wasn't particularly tired these days either. I was even having difficulties falling asleep during my designated nap periods. I was definitely having issues staying awake between my 8 AM and 12 PM naps, but the rest of the day was not bad. I wouldn't say I had a lot of energy, but I wasn't a zombie.

Day 5: Things started getting difficult for me. I overslept for one of my evening naps by 1.5 hrs and felt horrible. I was really dragging most of the day but I stuck with it.

Days 6-8: I was still dragging and having some issues here and there. I'd generally oversleep once a day for my naps, but never for more than an hour. At this point I was wondering if my body would ever adjust to it.

Days 9+: I was slowly adjusting more and more every day. I'd wake up from some naps 1-2 minutes before my alarm went off, feeling wide awake. Even when I did oversleep for some naps, it was only by 15-30 minutes, and not by hours. Even though that doesn't conform to the strict 2-3 hr/day guidelines, it's a very functional schedule still.

I am still on the schedule, and it has been 2 weeks. Certainly it's not a very long stretch of time to be on it for me to be making any serious claims about it, but I definitely think this works. I can push my naps around by 30-60 minutes, or even skip a nap entirely without it setting me back at all. Some other blogs I read mentioned having issues skipping a nap, but I seem to be doing ok with it. I had wondered at some points during this transition if it was really working or if I was just becoming delusional from sleep deprivation. Right now though, I am thinking more clearly than I ever have before, and have more energy than I have had at any point during the last year. It really is a ridiculous feeling.

My appetite has increased a huge amount since I started, but I suppose that's because I'm now awake 22 hrs/day and my body needs energy. Instead of just craving normal things I'd eat, my body has really wanted some different things. I've been eating a lot healthier as a result (instead of wanting junk food, I've been craving fruit or yogurt or cereal, etc). I have been having some difficulties finding things to occupy my time, but I think I'm going to start working out during the day, and playing video games and such at night. I fortunately have a lot of European friends, so there's always people to talk to if I'm bored, but lack of exciting activities could be a big concern. When I get back into the swing of things at school, it'll be less of a concern (work all day, play stuff at night!).

Anyways, I think that's everything I have to share about my experiences with this. It definitely is a possible schedule for some people, but at the same time some of my friends tried this last year and had very bad experiences with it. I don't think it's a matter of just willpower/determination either. I think some bodies are just cut out for it. Perhaps the fact that my sleep schedule already in bad shape made it easier to adjust; I don't know. It IS possible, though.

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Is PJ

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I tried it during Winter break (late December/early January) and was not able to fully adjust. I stayed on the schedule for only 5 days before oversleeping for 8 hrs. Hahahaha.

That's very interesting, Caesar. I hope you'll update again once you get back into the school lifestyle. It's interesting, I was actually thinking about this thread earlier this week, as I am without a job this summer and could use the extra time for reading, games and whatever else I don't get time for during the year. I don't think my body would ever cooperate with this though; I tend to be one of those people who needs to go to bed around midnight and get up around 7:30

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

Caesar if you're functional and you've got more time then I'd count that as a success this far. If you're into a swing after 2 weeks then that's excellent progress. You're right to be a bit cautious so far as well. I remember managing to build up a bucket of sleep that I needed to sleep off whilst feeling relatively workable in the meantime. Just watch out in case one of your overtime naps opens it up. I remember an experiment where a man needed one day a month to sleep without alarms to get it all out. Maybe around the 4 week mark this will come into play.

Also I was talking about this a number of months ago and someone told me that it's extremely bad for your heart. The heart will operate a lot slower during times of sleep and without this 6+ hours of downtime it can lead to issues. This is just hearsay but I would probably ask a doctor if you're looking to continue it long-term.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (sweetdude @ 11th July 2011 21:15)

Caesar if you're functional and you've got more time then I'd count that as a success this far. If you're into a swing after 2 weeks then that's excellent progress. You're right to be a bit cautious so far as well. I remember managing to build up a bucket of sleep that I needed to sleep off whilst feeling relatively workable in the meantime. Just watch out in case one of your overtime naps opens it up. I remember an experiment where a man needed one day a month to sleep without alarms to get it all out. Maybe around the 4 week mark this will come into play.

Also I was talking about this a number of months ago and someone told me that it's extremely bad for your heart. The heart will operate a lot slower during times of sleep and without this 6+ hours of downtime it can lead to issues. This is just hearsay but I would probably ask a doctor if you're looking to continue it long-term.

Very good points, sweetdude! I do plan to talk to my doctor about it again after I have been on the schedule for a bit longer (a few more weeks at least) to make sure everything is still working right. I had not heard about any specific health risks because as far as I know, not many people have continued this for a long period of time. It'll definitely be important for me to get some regular checkups with him.

I have no trouble believing that you and others had "accrued" some sleep time during this. Haha. There were some days that I felt like I'd just sleep for 10 hours if I fell soundly asleep, but then I'd find that after the short nap I fell completely awake again. I'm sure it'll catch up with me eventually.

Thanks for the input!

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Is PJ

Wow, this is very interesting, please keep us updated Caesar.
Also: I'm impressed at your efforts sweetdude. I might try and get into biphasic sleeping in the next few weeks

This post has been edited by Blinge Odonata on 12th July 2011 11:22

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