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I was reading something,and i agree with a lot of stuff.

It is kefka's cunning that makes him a great villain.
His delusion of grandeur and psychopathy.

People accuse him of being just a nihilist,and i think this is wrong.He is more than just that.

He uses gestahl,and even when general leo tells him not to poison doma,he probably set up leo to turn his back,so he could poison doma for his own pleasure.

Thing is:Gestahl too was evil.He thought he could control kefka,but it was true to begin with that kefka was the main villain,rather than a lackey.He exuded power.
He showed little respect to leo and certainly didn't respect gestahl.

I think,if you put gestahl in the right situation,he would have backstabbed kefka.
He was a narcissist for sure,because he enjoyed that power and wanted control.

I remember when he spoke of getting the statues of the warring triad.It was clear he wanted that power so he could have more power over others and control them.I think also:the comedy is also meant to show part of how sick minded he is.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Kefka is the personification of the intent to do harm. He has one motivation: sadism. He enjoys the suffering of others, to the exclusion, really, of seeking wealth, power, fame, or any other end. He merely wishes to cause as much fear and pain as he can, and when presented with the opportunity to cause that pain and destruction on a global scale, he does so only out of rage. He isn't thinking like a Macchevelian (sic) at all. He isn't playing power games, or trying to outmaneuver anyone. He merely is infuriated at Celes, and all living things, and so on a whim, claims the Triad's power for himself, just because he wishes to perpetrate violence on as grand a scale as possible.

The key element that makes him a great black hat is fear. The chief fear of any human being is to be subjected to suffering, generally speaking. Kefka, in the guise of something that is intented to evoke childish joy and whimsey (a clown), instead, through his actions, manner of speech, and attitude toward every living thing, evokes the fear of suffering pain.

He is as evil as evil can get. As Alfred Pennyworth stated, speaking of the Joker in The Dark Knight:

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"...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

This post has been edited by Spooniest on 28th September 2011 15:17

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X is blue.

Quote (Spooniest @ 28th September 2011 15:13)

. He isn't thinking like a Macchevelian (sic) at all. He isn't playing power , or trying to outmaneuver anyone. He merely is infuriated at Celes, and all living things, and so on a whim, claims the Triad's power for himself, just because he wishes to perpetrate violence on as grand a scale as possible.

I disagree:

Kefka is clever and has a lot of self confidence.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

I can't prove if he sent general leo away by faking a card requesting his presence in the emperor's hall,but if he did:that was quite clever.

For all we know,he could have used it as a way,or simply waited for the opportunity for leo to turn his back.

He couldn't very well poison doma with leo on his back.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

When he absorbed the power of the statues of triad,he stood in hte middle and knew that somehow it nullified magic.He also had a plan to go after the warring triad even before the magitek factory was destroyed.

I think that he was using gestahl all along for his plan.He knew he could manipulate gestahl to get what he wanted from the empire therefor:he was an opportunist who was well aware of how authority and power worked.

Even though he was quite clever,he was also very arrogant as well.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

I think if you had put a situation where gestahl could have won,he might have stabbed kefka in the back as well.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Also:what about when kefka used a imagery of gestahl to fool leo?
That was a pretty clever move he had to stab him in the back.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Perhaps it was also gestahls fault for being so blind as to not see that kefka was out of control and would pose a risk to him.This could be a sign of short sightedness that lead to his demise.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 28th September 2011 15:34

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

If you were going to put it all behind spoilers, why didn't you do it in your first post? Oh well...

I would argue that while Kefka did have quite a triple play going on, I'm in doubt as to whether he was actually actively planning anything, or just sort of caught up in the swell of it. He has clearly lost all perspective before the game has even begun, and seems to me to be "going with the flow." There might have been moments where he came down to earth for a moment, and started formulating a plan, but one would never know when he was just going to snap and start craving "a bit of the ultra-violence."

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Quote (Spooniest @ 28th September 2011 16:57)

begun, and seems to me to be "going with the flow." There might have been moments where he came down to earth for a moment, and started formulating a plan, but one would never know when he was just going to snap and start craving "a bit of the ultra-violence."

That's the thing:Some stuff is only speculation,but there are true moments that make me think he planned them all along.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

The whole card thing summoning leo seemed very coincidental and very good for him.Leo did not agree with kefka and this would make things easier for him.Now:wether he planned to have this card forged,or if he really got summoned by emperor gestahl is a question

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

The whole imprisonment thing of gestahl imprisoning him for war crimes part:
There is a lot of debate as to who planned this.Did kefka help him come up with the plan? Did gestahl come up with this plan to throw off the returners? Did they both simply help think up the idea?

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

What about the attack on narshe? He knew about the esper there and attacked narshe to get to it.

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I saw myself that kefka knew edgar was a traitor,so he couldn't have been that big of a fool.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

He somehow figured out where the returners are and went to the secret base.

Sometimes he may have gone with the flow,but i think sometimes he knew that he had to put things in action to get what he wanted.He seemed impatient.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Its true that emperor gestahl lead an invasion of the espers world and kidnapped them.He did also trick the returners into believing that the empire was peacefull.After that,the returners convince the espers to come to town and negociate peace and kefka is free and starts turning espers into shards and killing and burning thamasa

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Another thing also leads to believe,the lack of intelligence of kefka,due to the narshe invasion which was a failure.Kefka failed to kill you and capture the esper in that event.Could it be that he really is more of a brute like luca blight from suikoden? or simply that he is more of a different type of cunning planner?

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

People also put down kefka,because he was defeated when he became a god.Thing is:If he did not die,then the game could not end and then what kind of ending would we have? All villains in final fantasy are defeated in the end.Yes he was defeated by teenagers,but wasn't dark cloud as well?

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 28th September 2011 17:55

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

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People also put down kefka,because he was defeated when he became a god.Thing is:If he did not die,then the game could not end and then what kind of ending would we have? All villains in final fantasy are defeated in the end.Yes he was defeated by teenagers,but wasn't dark cloud as well?

Aren't they all? And anyway, anyone who thinks Kefka is no good because he lost has missed the point of the game entirely anyway.


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Just because Kekfa was clever, cunning and able to confidently manipulate others to his own ends doesn't mean that Spooniest's first post is wrong.

It's perfectly possible for Kekfa to have all of the traits above and still only want to watch the world burn out of rage. Being smart and having a plan to achieve this doesn't stop it from being his ultimate objective.

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We apologise for the inconvenience

Quote (Stiltzkin @ 30th September 2011 07:49)

Just because Kekfa was clever, cunning and able to confidently manipulate others to his own ends doesn't mean that Spooniest's first post is wrong.

It's perfectly possible for Kekfa to have all of the traits above and still only want to watch the world burn out of rage. Being smart and having a plan to achieve this doesn't stop it from being his ultimate objective.

He said:Kefka is the personification of the intent to do harm. He has one motivation: sadism. He enjoys the suffering of others, to the exclusion, really, of seeking wealth, power, fame, or any other end. He merely wishes to cause as much fear and pain as he can, and when presented with the opportunity to cause that pain and destruction on a global scale, he does so only out of rage. He isn't thinking like a Macchevelian (sic) at all. He isn't playing power games, or trying to outmaneuver anyone.

Now if kefka weren't clever or someone who plans,then he wouldn't have succeded and known that the magical statues when you stand in the middle,can absorb magic.He planned from the magitek factory to get the power.

He's not just some guy who is angry at the world and want veangance,he does it because he enjoys it and takes pleasure in watching people suffer.Kefka is a sadist,and an egomaniac.Just look at how he does things behind leo's back and watch how he poisoned doma.

What about what he did to figaro castle? burning the castle like that? His plan might have not been to destroy it,rather to get what he wants.

I still argue:that kefka is clever and pretty much a force to be reckoned with.He was always the villain recognised at the start due to the story putting him there.The only other enemy in the game,is gestahl,and he didn't get nearly as much spotlight as kefka.Also:When kefka followed the team to the gate of the summoned monster,he came from behind a stone to wait for the right moment to jump out to get inside.This was after you get your espers.

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

I was trolling around the local college campus bookstore whilst visiting there with a friend who had class. I ended up finding a nifty little number called "Philosophy in Final Fantasy", which had a hilarious picture on the cover of several famous thinkers with their heads plastered on Moogle bodies (not least hilarious among them was Nietzsche with that broom he called a mustache). One of the essays inside of it was a diatribe on Kefka, exploring him through a modernist/existentialist lens, focusing on the works of Kafka (duh), Dostoevsky, Nietzsche and a few others. The essay itself wasn't really about what makes Kefka a great villain, so much as it was an exploration of nihilism, madness and purpose with Kefka as a springboard.

What I gathered from it is this- that Kefka is great precisely because he represents the danger inherent in reason. It wasn't so much that Kefka was sadistic, but rather that he had made the conclusion regarding existence that since nothing is permanent, that nothing matters. Thus, when at the end, your party starts assaulting him with stories of how they've managed to define their existence, Kefka doesn't care simply because he's not batty, but correct-- that these things the PC's mention are fleeting things that are based on delusion.

And this is precisely what makes Kefka great: that he represents the danger and madness inherent in reason itself, showing that a healthy human being requires lies in their thinking just as much as truth in order to be happy and hale.

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Quote (MogMaster @ 1st October 2011 20:09)

What I gathered from it is this- that Kefka is great precisely because he represents the danger inherent in reason. It wasn't so much that Kefka was sadistic, but rather that he had made the conclusion regarding existence that since nothing is permanent, that nothing matters. Thus, when at the end, your party starts assaulting him with stories of how they've managed to define their existence, Kefka doesn't care simply because he's not batty, but correct-- that these things the PC's mention are fleeting things that are based on delusion.

And this is precisely what makes Kefka great: that he represents the danger and madness inherent in reason itself, showing that a healthy human being requires lies in their thinking just as much as truth in order to be happy and hale.

Thing about kefka,is that I felt that he got that way when he was a god,not before it.I think he was a little different before becoming a god.And as for reason:Kefka has no reasoning,he is insane.A person like him would be put inside of prison or a mental hospital with one of those high securities and a padded wall and a straightjacket.He just is that dangerous.He isn't rational.If he were,he wouldn't do the things he did.



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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Do you actually have a consistent opinion on this? You seem to have contradicted yourself several times already.

And you really don't seem to have understood anything any other poster in this thread has said.

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We apologise for the inconvenience

Quote (Stiltzkin @ 1st October 2011 21:30)

Do you actually have a consistent opinion on this? You seem to have contradicted yourself several times already.

And you really don't seem to have understood anything any other poster in this thread has said.

I am not contradicting myself at all,i understand perfectly well.

I agreed with him if you hadn't understanded,but i felt that kefka's goals were slightly different before he became a god.

I read somewhere that it had to do with kefka being bored as a god,and he then came down to the conclusion that its all pointless.

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Mogmaster

What I gathered from it is this- that Kefka is great precisely because he represents the danger inherent in reason. It wasn't so much that Kefka was sadistic, but rather that he had made the conclusion regarding existence that since nothing is permanent, that nothing matters. Thus, when at the end, your party starts assaulting him with stories of how they've managed to define their existence, Kefka doesn't care simply because he's not batty, but correct-- that these things the PC's mention are fleeting things that are based on delusion.

See? we are saying the same thing,except that i think kefka became a nihilist in the world of ruin.In the world of balance,i think he wanted power so he could go around causing trouble.He was concentrating on power rather than destruction.The reason is obvious:First he needed power to destroy the world,or perhaps he was weak and needed power to delude is ego more.Mogmaster is right about his delusion of grandeur.I mean:he acts big and has an attitude that he thinks he is running the show.People feared kefka.


This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 1st October 2011 21:42

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

So far as it goes, in the WoB, Kefka was exactly the same, except he hadn't achieved the pinnacle of existence he so longed for. Essentially, his philosophy of "nothing really matters" carried him to godhood, almost as an experiment rather than a calculated move. Once he had hit the ceiling on being badass, it was then he decided to create a monument to non-existence. Why? Because he could and, after his self creation as a God, given his understanding of existence to be that everything is false, there was nothing left to do but destroy.

Reason and science tell us that the opinions of people based on feeling and not thinking are ridiculous and false. Kefka is the ultimate representation of this understanding. He's something like a cross between an Ubermensch and an Ayn Rand protagonist.

Edit: and so far as him being irrational goes, I have to disagree. Given his aims and the fact that he achieved his mark, he was the soul of rationality. Insanity is in the eye of the beholder, and in all madness there is also reason; likely pushed to it's ultimate conclusion. What could be more rational, for instance, than poisoning Doma? They couldn't have had that many imperial prisoners (which Kefka correctly knew to be expendable in the grand scheme of the imperial goals), and that aside, wasn't it an effective move? Counting POW's as casualties, he still saved a whole lot of resources, time, and manpower with his tactic- inhumanity isn't at odds with reason-- rather it is the heart of it.

This post has been edited by MogMaster on 2nd October 2011 13:05

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Quote (MogMaster @ 2nd October 2011 12:59)

So far as it goes, in the WoB, Kefka was exactly the same, except he hadn't achieved the pinnacle of existence he so longed for. Essentially, his philosophy of "nothing really matters" carried him to godhood, almost as an experiment rather than a calculated move. Once he had hit the ceiling on being badass, it was then he decided to create a monument to non-existence. Why? Because he could and, after his self creation as a God, given his understanding of existence to be that everything is false,  there was nothing left to do but destroy.

Reason and science tell us that the opinions of people based on feeling and not thinking are ridiculous and false. Kefka is the ultimate representation of this understanding. He's something like a cross between an Ubermensch and an Ayn Rand protagonist.

Edit: and so far as him being irrational goes, I have to disagree. Given his aims and the fact that he achieved his mark, he was the soul of rationality. Insanity is in the eye of the beholder, and in all madness there is also reason; likely pushed to it's ultimate conclusion. What could be more rational, for instance, than poisoning Doma? They couldn't have had that many imperial prisoners (which Kefka correctly knew to be expendable in the grand scheme of the imperial goals), and that aside, wasn't it an effective move? Counting POW's as casualties, he still saved a whole lot of resources, time, and manpower with his tactic- inhumanity isn't at odds with reason-- rather it is the heart of it.

Just because its effective,doesn't mean its essencially the best move though.

You could deal with al qaeda by using a nuclear weapon and dropping it in each part of the arabic lands,but it would be wrong and immoral,because a lot of innocents would die and you would essencially poison your own ground in the end.Also:there is a chance that you won't fully get rid of each.

On second thought:he is quite insane.I think he is both a psychopath and insane at the same time.It seems like he is lucid enough to commit the atrocities and suffers from delusion of grandeur.



This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 2nd October 2011 15:47

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

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Insanity is in the eye of the beholder, and in all madness there is also reason

This is a very interesting point. It had never occured to me that Kefka's madness was the result of his reason run amok.

This is an excellent short story (though quite disturbing) by Edgar Allen Poe, where the (clearly insane) protagonist makes the case that insanity is not an abandonment of sense, but rather an over-acuteness of it. This thread just reminded me of it.

Edgar Allen Poe - The Telltale Heart

If reason (or what is called "logic") is all someone believes in, they can use it to justify any number of horrors, up to and including genocide. This actually has happened in the course of human history, and it's an important lesson to learn. As we get older, and our ability to make logical connections between our thoughts grows, it's easy to become jaded and feel that logic is all one needs to make sense of the world. This turns out to not be the case, as a person's emotional stability grows worse and worse under such a supposition, until they either get stuck in loops upon loops of logic, or finally give in to the aging process, and once more yield to emotion. People often describe this state of mind with the statement, "I'm getting more sentimental as I get older."

This is the basis for the concept known as nostalgia, which is what keeps us talking about this game 17 years after its original stateside release.

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The game is also really good and has well depicted characters.
Sure nostalgia can affect you.For me it was ff4 and ff1,because i was born before either came out.
Of course:The affect can also change your view if you play an old game like,say:FF tactics.

Going back to the subject:Over analizing can also sometimes cause people to forget or miss entirely what the character was supposed to be originally.We could analize kefka all day,and come up with ideas.

Thing about kefka is:I always found that his story was about the present,not his past like other characters.The reason being:Its about how he affected everyone else with his actions,and how many people he hurt.You can have a very logical thinker,but perhaps they are too cold with lack of empathy to actually care about the consequences of their actions.Sort of like:hal from 2001.Cold uncaring and totally devoid of empathy.

When kefka says that famous quote:I got sand in my boots,i immediately thought of my father who i am pretty sure is a sociopath.Because of the way he treats us.
Kefka has this attitude like he acts big,and treats everyone who is below him like dirt.To him,the guards kefka comands are nothing but a piece of cardboard cut out.They mean nothing to him.

On the other hand:The problem is:He was also insane.At times,i think its a mixture of both insanity and psychopathy,but the problem with insanity:

Perhaps i myself am over analizing the character itself.I like detail.

Anyways,my point about kefka was:It wasn't his past that lead him to this,because you are born a psychopath.Kefka desired power and he would do anything and kill anyone for it.Psychopaths crave a high to feel something,because they feel nothing,i felt that perhaps kefka desired that to feel something.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

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Anyways,my point about kefka was:It wasn't his past that lead him to this,because you are born a psychopath.

While being born with a tendency towards psychosis is something that can happen (I know, because I was/am), Kefka, akshuly, was not born this way. His mental stability was destroyed by the imperfected process of Magitek Infusion. You find this out from an NPC in the bar in Vector, the "You're Returners?" *surprise* "Not a problem," guy.

The fact that Kefka's backstory has never been elaborated on was probably intended to infuse the player with an unquestionable hatred of him. If we were to see the REAL Kefka, the one that existed before the botched infusion, we might have more of a sympathetic eye for him as a character, but that wasn't what the writers intended. They wanted you to hate Kefka; he's the bad guy.

Of course, there is the possibility, as well, that Kefka was still kind of a jerk before the botched infusion, just not nearly as murderous. We may never know, and it doesn't matter in the endgame anyway, as the whole point of the game must remain "Kefka is a dick. Take him out!!" for the story to have the necessary gravitas.

The "will to do harm" is a concept from modern Judaism called the yetzer hara. It is the dark side of a person's soul, that which is responsible for ambition and the quest to alter the environment in which the person finds themselves. It is, as described, a necessary part of each person, their "enemy within." Kefka, as I said in my original post, is the exaggerated, blown-up-to-larger-than-life personification of the "yetzer hara," or "will to do harm."

The concept of a person overcoming their "dark side" was explored in Final Fantasy 4's protagonist, Cecil Harvey. In Final Fantasy 6, for the antagonist, they take a look at the "other side of the coin," so to speak, where a person is utterly conquered by their dark side.

Aaaand that's Kefka for ya.

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He may have madness in some parts,but i think its that cold unfeeling attitude of his that makes him what he is.If he were over analized,it would ruin his persona because he lacks empathy.

What he does in the world of ruin and burning up the town,i think that was the madness,but he also suffers from delusion of grandeur,meaning he was also probably at least a sociopath/narcissist.

Golbez was used,but he probably desired power,because he was brainwashed,but i don't think we should talk about that here because its too off topic and would anger ranger51.

I personally think:Every villain is different in their own way:

Kefka is a maniac and a psychopath,and his will to do harm as you so called it is an essence of his madness,and what makes him scary.

I personally think we should try to not over analize a villains,because it may make them weaker in character,rather than stronger.A villain doesn't always need a traumatic past to become a villain.Some desire power,and some use people to get it.Some villains do need a backstory to explain why they are the way they are,because some villains don't get that way just out of nowhere,but that doesn't fully work to kefkas advantage.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

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I personally think that we should not over analize (sic) villains

Well, you picked a fine time to tell everyone!!

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If we were to see the REAL Kefka, the one that existed before the botched infusion, we might have more of a sympathetic eye for him as a character, but that wasn't what the writers intended. They wanted you to hate Kefka; he's the bad guy.

Of course, there is the possibility, as well, that Kefka was still kind of a jerk before the botched infusion, just not nearly as murderous. We may never know,

For me, this was always one of the things that made Kefka such an interesting character. His background is pretty much a blank slate except for that one little tidbit about his botched Magitek infusion we hear from the guy in Vector. Learning that he wasn't always the mad clown we know in the game piqued my curiosity and made me wonder what he was like before he got his Magitek infusion. (Like Spooniest said, that probably wasn't the reaction the writers were trying to get from me, but I'm just contrary that way! )

It stands to reason Kefka had to be a fairly normal guy of sound mind and body before that infusion (it seems unlikely the Empire would've used him as a test subject if he was already unstable). And to me, it's all the more chilling if he was a normal guy before that infusion. If he'd been born crazy or was evil all along, it comes as no surprise he took the destructive path he did. But if he was a normal person (maybe even a good person) who got twisted to evil, it's like what Spooniest said about the yetzer hara -- the monster within. If being completely overcome by that darkness could happen to a normal person, it could happen to anybody.

But again, this is all conjecture. We don't know for sure and probably never will.

It might be that Gestahl kept Kefka around because he felt that Kefka's sadistic destructiveness could be used to help expand the Empire--after all, when you're dealing with a truly crazy enemy, you have to give 'em more leeway than usual. This might justify Gestahl being a bit annoyed at the very honorable Leo and letting Kefka get away with his shenanigans.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

I always felt that kefka was more interesting,if he wasn't overly rationalized for his actions.You know:perhaps if he were to bring the magitek experiment upon himself,so it would be his own desire for power that led to his madness.

Its just that:Psychopaths sometimes do have stuff in their life that nurtures their psychopathy,and brings it out in them,because sometimes they simply become amoral business men who are willing to hurt anyone.They feel nothing.

I always fealt that kefka was a little more than just crazy,i felt he was also definitely a narcissist as well as a psychopath.

I wouldn't mind,if the story brings him out to be just as evil if not worse,as in make him seem more evil and vile rather than try to feel sympathy for him.



This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 4th October 2011 16:37

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.