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http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/osama-bin-la...ory?id=13505703

I'm glad he can't hurt more people, though I'm not glad someone else had died.

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"When we think there's no hope left, we keep looking until we find some!" - Claire Farron

As I posted elsewhere, it's great news that he's gone, but I'm worried over retaliation attacks. But I think our government and military are prepared for anything and have this under control. I hope so, anyway.

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Quote (Fatal @ 2nd May 2011 00:30)

As I posted elsewhere, it's great news that he's gone, but I'm worried over retaliation attacks. But I think our government and military are prepared for anything and have this under control. I hope so, anyway.

Well, I think that, very sadly, this will do little to lessen terrorism throughout the Middle East, and may perhaps give religious extremists a martyr to help increase their efforts. When a group of people are oppressed, they commonly search for answers. I can only hope that the people of the Middle East and North Africa can learn that the best way to avert foreign imperialist efforts is not through religious extremism and terrorism, but rather through democracy and non-violent protest. Egypt has proven this. As for Bin Laden, obviously, I am glad that another extremist murderer has met the end which is deserved. And hopefully, if we can end our war(s) in the Middle East and North Africa, we can finally mend some fences in that area. Sadly though, this seems like a far-off hope.

This post has been edited by BlitzSage on 2nd May 2011 05:06

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Praise Be To Helix!

I think BlitzSage is right, but for now, all I'm happy about is that he's dead (I'm considering walking around tomorrow with this playing nonstop in celebration). I'm actually happy that they killed him instead of capturing him alive; if he were alive, I think we'd be caught up in the "Should he have a trial? Does he deserve a trial? Where should the trial be held? What would happen if we just executed him? Are we going to have to deal with citizens trying to kill him themselves? Where should we detain him until the trial?" bullshit for months.

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EGG TOSS
YOU CARRY
EAT A BAG
LEMON-DY
HEAD SAUCE
JIM CARREY
IN A BEAR
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Quote (Insegredious @ 2nd May 2011 01:27)

if he were alive, I think we'd be caught up in the "Should he have a trial? Does he deserve a trial? Where should the trial be held? What would happen if we just executed him? Are we going to have to deal with citizens trying to kill him themselves? Where should we detain him until the trial?" bullshit for months.

In other words, "Should we forego our principles when we see fit?"? If we don't have evidence, he shouldn't be convicted. Imagine if you or I were accused of terrorism. Wouldn't you want a fair trial? It's sad that, in cases such as these, we so easily give up what we believe in for supposed justice. I'm glad to see an extremist get his deserved end, but I'm not happy that for the last ten years we've been happy to give up our principles. That is, for me, the true tragedy.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 2nd May 2011 05:55)

Quote (Insegredious @ 2nd May 2011 01:27)

if he were alive, I think we'd be caught up in the "Should he have a trial? Does he deserve a trial? Where should the trial be held? What would happen if we just executed him? Are we going to have to deal with citizens trying to kill him themselves? Where should we detain him until the trial?" bullshit for months.

In other words, "Should we forego our principles when we see fit?"? If we don't have evidence, he shouldn't be convicted. Imagine if you or I were accused of terrorism. Wouldn't you want a fair trial? It's sad that, in cases such as these, we so easily give up what we believe in for supposed justice. I'm glad to see an extremist get his deserved end, but I'm not happy that for the last ten years we've been happy to give up our principles. That is, for me, the true tragedy.

But we DO have evidence - all those videos he created over the past decade or so. I haven't watched any of them at length recently, but from what I know, those are about as good as a confession.
But whatever. All that matters right now is that he's dead, and we don't need to worry about having a trial.

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EGG TOSS
YOU CARRY
EAT A BAG
LEMON-DY
HEAD SAUCE
JIM CARREY
IN A BEAR
HEAVEN PEE
DAFFY-ROTH
- brentalfloss

Quote (BlitzSage @ 2nd May 2011 00:03)

Quote (Fatal @ 2nd May 2011 00:30)

As I posted elsewhere, it's great news that he's gone, but I'm worried over retaliation attacks. But I think our government and military are prepared for anything and have this under control. I hope so, anyway.

Well, I think that, very sadly, this will do little to lessen terrorism throughout the Middle East, and may perhaps give religious extremists a martyr to help increase their efforts. When a group of people are oppressed, they commonly search for answers. I can only hope that the people of the Middle East and North Africa can learn that the best way to avert foreign imperialist efforts is not through religious extremism and terrorism, but rather through democracy and non-violent protest. Egypt has proven this. As for Bin Laden, obviously, I am glad that another extremist murderer has met the end which is deserved. And hopefully, if we can end our war(s) in the Middle East and North Africa, we can finally mend some fences in that area. Sadly though, this seems like a far-off hope.

I disagree somewhat, to the extant that all in all, the issues in the middle east are starting to turn around. Like you said, Egypt is a wonderful example. They've shown, along with many protests in other countries, that the general populace does not support the radical leaders. In my opinion, it seems like terrorism is starting to lose momentum, albeit more gradually than anyone would like. Obviously not every country will rebel, but if enough people keep following a more peaceful approach to settling differences, the few people in opposition will gradually be forced to go down (hopefully without too much of a fight.) Realistically, yes, there may be some surges of retaliation, but I think any such movements or plans will die off rather quickly. Basically - to sum it all up, since I'm not sure that I'm totally coherent at 2:43 a.m. - It seems to me that everything is moving towards a better place, where we can really start to rebuild the U.S.A.'s relationship with that region of the world. (And boy, do we need to do that.)

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Quote (Insegredious @ 2nd May 2011 05:27)

I'm happy about is that he's dead (I'm considering walking around tomorrow with this playing nonstop in celebration).

Haha I feel the same way. I mean we all have a view point on this situation, but had the incident of 9/11 never occured, then such fighting and war wouldn't have broke out. So what if Osama Bin Laden wanted to spend the rest of his days living a normal life or even wanted to be like a normal person again.

The chance he had for that is long past. I say good riddance to him and on with the fanfares.

As to the continuing terrorism at hand. All we can do is wait to see what happened. This is the start of May, and there's not telling what the future holds. Let's be ready either way

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I don't really see why there should be fanfares or celebrations. At the end of the day, another person has died. Sure, he deserved it, but to celebrate and dance around just seems crass to me.

I'm not really sure it will have the desired effect on terrorism either - yes, he was a powerful figurehead for Al-Qaeda, but 'terrorism' isn't a simple army that crumbles when you cut off its head. This may be a step in the right direction, but it certainly won't be game over for the extremists - not least because they aren't all Al-Qaeda members!

And, to digress slightly, am I the only one who is sceptical of this news? The fact that we hadn't been able to find him for years always made me wonder if he wasn't dead already, and the pretence of his survival was being maintained for obvious morale reasons on their part.

Now that American forces claim to have found and killed him, then conveniently buried the body at sea to prevent corroboration, makes me sceptical once again that this event has actually occurred - maybe it is itself just a piece of propaganda...maybe I just watch too many conspiracy movies. Though I'm sure in the coming days there will be some claims that Bin Laden lives, whether true or not!

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Quote (Stiltzkin @ 2nd May 2011 11:54)

I don't really see why there should be fanfares or celebrations. At the end of the day, another person has died. Sure, he deserved it, but to celebrate and dance around just seems crass to me.

I really hate to be a douche, but I live in New York. I wouldn't call celebrating the death of the man responsible for this, a man for whom the US has spent a decade and enough money comparable to the moon landing looking for, crass. He isn't just "another person" who has died.

This post has been edited by Insegredious on 2nd May 2011 12:23

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EGG TOSS
YOU CARRY
EAT A BAG
LEMON-DY
HEAD SAUCE
JIM CARREY
IN A BEAR
HEAVEN PEE
DAFFY-ROTH
- brentalfloss

Bush cast Doom on him.
It just took 10 years for the timer to run down..

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The victor sacrificed the vanquished to the heavens

Quote (Blinge Odonata @ 2nd May 2011 07:30)

Bush cast Doom on him.
It just took 10 years for the timer to run down..

Should've just cast instant death!

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Quote (BlitzSage @ 1st May 2011 21:55)

In other words, "Should we forego our principles when we see fit?"? If we don't have evidence, he shouldn't be convicted.

Maybe next time he shouldn't confess to a mass murder, then.

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

Quote (Dr. Delinquent @ 2nd May 2011 02:53)

Realistically, yes, there may be some surges of retaliation, but I think any such movements or plans will die off rather quickly.

It seems to me that everything is moving towards a better place, where we can really start to rebuild the U.S.A.'s relationship with that region of the world. (And boy, do we need to do that.)

I'm not so sure about that. Remember, there are massive majorities in that region that consider the U.S. to be their main enemy. And we've just intervened in another war over there, leading to a grand total of three. After destroying Iraq and Afghanistan to get this one terrorist, I think that what we have done is increase the threat of terrorism. The only way we can actually defeat terrorism and rebuild our relationship with the region is to stop supporting dictators and invading countries. Keep in mind that we helped arm Osama Bin Laden in the Afghanistan's fight against the Russians, and that led to the Taliban's brutal regime. In almost every case of oppression in the region has our name all over it (in fact, in Egypt's case, American-made tear gas was used on crowds).

My point is, it is a symbolic justice for those in New York and around the country hurt by that vicious man's actions. So, it was a good thing to see justice take place. But now we all have to realize that this did nothing to stop terrorism. We can only really prevent another 9-11 by fundamentally changing our foreign policy.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (Insegredious @ 1st May 2011 22:27)

I think BlitzSage is right, but for now, all I'm happy about is that he's dead (I'm considering walking around tomorrow with this playing nonstop in celebration). I'm actually happy that they killed him instead of capturing him alive; if he were alive, I think we'd be caught up in the "Should he have a trial? Does he deserve a trial? Where should the trial be held? What would happen if we just executed him? Are we going to have to deal with citizens trying to kill him themselves? Where should we detain him until the trial?" bullshit for months.

Haha I played the fanfare as well. About time we got him.

Quote (GamblingCat @ 2nd May 2011 14:37)

Quote (Insegredious @ 1st May 2011 22:27)

I think BlitzSage is right, but for now, all I'm happy about is that he's dead (I'm considering walking around tomorrow with this playing nonstop in celebration). I'm actually happy that they killed him instead of capturing him alive; if he were alive, I think we'd be caught up in the "Should he have a trial? Does he deserve a trial? Where should the trial be held? What would happen if we just executed him? Are we going to have to deal with citizens trying to kill him themselves? Where should we detain him until the trial?" bullshit for months.

Haha I played the fanfare as well. About time we got him.

Okay, before I was serious, but I can't be now! Lol. Oh well, I'll give in.

Okay, maybe he's not a cute bunny, but still, lol.

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Praise Be To Helix!

The way I see it, we should be glad a terrorist is dead. I know Obama is.



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this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

I love that image.

As for middle-eastern terrorist activity, I recently read this article: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East...slamic-warriors

I found a very useful perspective on this: People get into terrorism because it's a way to change things that they feel otherwise can't be changed.

Now that protests across the region are seen as potentially viable, suddenly people have a much better way of making change happen than getting into terrorism.

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Quote

In other words, "Should we forego our principles when we see fit?"? If we don't have evidence, he shouldn't be convicted. Imagine if you or I were accused of terrorism. Wouldn't you want a fair trial? It's sad that, in cases such as these, we so easily give up what we believe in for supposed justice. I'm glad to see an extremist get his deserved end, but I'm not happy that for the last ten years we've been happy to give up our principles. That is, for me, the true tragedy.

Firstly, I'm in agreement with Neal. I mean the C.I.A. recognizance, videoed tourist beheadings and the taped confessions of a free man aren't evidence enough? At Osama's level of infamy, any trial he'd been given would've purely been a manner of formality.

More importantly, even without a trial, there's no foregoing of national principals taking place here. The Fifth Amendment has an exception for cases such as this. The excerpt in question would be "except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger."

This provision was added because in real life, actions are not turn based, so there's no time to consider whether or not somebody's innocent or not on the battlefield or at the scene of a crime in progress. If you have an opportunity to dispatch of the enemy and dwaddle around, opportunity to act and subsequently innocent people's lives could be lost to the whims of a tyrant. One has to remember that so long as this man was free, he's an actively liable threat and danger to society, being so instrumental to Al-queda's operations.

While it is true that only congress is given the constitutional right to give a declaration of war by Article I Section 8, this formality is both precedentedly and as a manner of fact intentionally not required when war is declared upon the United States of America on the simple principal that once war is declared, it's declared, regardless of if it was the United States of America or some odd foreign body that declared it. Once that obstacle's out of the way, it squarely falls within the President's power to act as commander in chief of the military as his first responsibility listed in Article II, Section 2 and can more or less act as he pleases in that regard.

There is no doubt that Al Queda declared war upon the United States. Even in the event that they didn't commit the acts of war they take credit for, they quite openly and brazenly announced it of their own free admission and have soldiers in training to that effect for the entire world to see. Their active forfiture of their rights is not the problem of the U.S.A. It's a purely a necessary manner of self-defense. Maybe if they surrender, then they can have their rights to due process restored to them but even then, they're highly likely to be convicted. Their bet is a attempt a plea bargain in exchange for vital intelligence.

At any rate, we should keep in mind that the people who framed the constitution were experienced veterans and war hardened rebels who while greatly wanting of freedom and justice in principal, understood the intricacies of combat and battle.

Quote (Blinge Odonata)

Bush cast Doom on him.
It just took 10 years for the timer to run down..

Tsk, tsk Blinge, Doom/Death are the instant death spells. I think you mean to be talking about Countdown/Death Sentence, don't you?

Oh right, almost forgot, are we certain we really got the right man and not just a body double? I vaguely recall we've already had some false reports regarding this guy's death in the past.

This post has been edited by Tonepoet on 2nd May 2011 21:50

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Role reversal at its finest.

I'm having some trouble seeing what everyone is so happy about. This won't change anything.

I'm not bothered that they did shoot him - they went to capture him, he resisted, they shot him. That course of events is reasonable enough, assuming of course that it is accurate.

But to be saying that they should have shot him outright without even trying to capture him is just wrong. Yes, I agree that it would have been difficult to try Bin Laden fairly. And yes, it would almost certainly have been a formality. But depending on the location of his trial, and the ruling jurisdiction; the sentence may not have been death.

And regardless of sentence - to go around executing your enemies without even attempting to capture/disarm/try them is the kind of behaviour that gets you stood in the dock at the Hague.

Just because America is one of the good guys from our perspective doesn't mean they are allowed to play fast and loose with human rights and justice.

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We apologise for the inconvenience

Quote (jtdurai @ 2nd May 2011 13:16)

I'm having some trouble seeing what everyone is so happy about. This won't change anything.

This is what we're happy about.





This post has been edited by Neal on 2nd May 2011 21:50

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

Quote (Neal @ 2nd May 2011 21:49)

This is what we're happy about. (img)

So who are they? People who lived as a result of killing Osama bin Laden? People who were brought back to life when he died, maybe? I'm just guessing because you forgot to put it in your post.

Quote (jtdurai @ 2nd May 2011 23:44)

Quote (Neal @ 2nd May 2011 21:49)

This is what we're happy about. (img)

So who are they? People who lived as a result of killing Osama bin Laden? People who were brought back to life when he died, maybe? I'm just guessing because you forgot to put it in your post.

Okay, now you're just being an asshat. I know the picture doesn't have a caption, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that those are likely pictures of those who died in 9/11.

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EGG TOSS
YOU CARRY
EAT A BAG
LEMON-DY
HEAD SAUCE
JIM CARREY
IN A BEAR
HEAVEN PEE
DAFFY-ROTH
- brentalfloss

Quote (Insegredious @ 2nd May 2011 21:47)

Quote (jtdurai @ 2nd May 2011 23:44)

Quote (Neal @ 2nd May 2011 21:49)

This is what we're happy about. (img)

So who are they? People who lived as a result of killing Osama bin Laden? People who were brought back to life when he died, maybe? I'm just guessing because you forgot to put it in your post.

Okay, now you're just being an asshat. I know the picture doesn't have a caption, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that those are likely pictures of those who died in 9/11.

I second that. Look, I agree with you that people shouldn't be too happy. This won't change much of anything. In fact, I just saw a poll of different Arab populations, and they overwhelmingly feel that the U.S. and U.S.-backed Israel are their worst enemies. Until the U.S. changes it's foreign policy we will continue to create a group that hates us.

But as for the answer to your question, the answer is that they're people. And just like any person, they're affected by this entire ordeal. Even if Neal posted a picture of himself, I would feel the same way: ultimately this is an issue about the safety of all people. That's why I don't want to see extremists like Osama continue. And it's also why I don't want to see the continuation of Israeli aid and Iraqi/Afghani occupation. We are destroying countries, creating hot-beds for terror, and placing all people in danger.

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Praise Be To Helix!

I'm actually really nervous as to what this is going to mean for troops overseas and for those who follow him. I'd like to see media coverage that shows how this has affected these people. The last thing I want is for them to hold an even deeper grudge and retaliate on us...



To be honest, I think the thought that this might not be as over as we think might keep me from feeling anything, happy or sad, about this moment. I'm grateful he's been caught, but not as celebratory as others, I guess. It kind of doesn't seem real. The main thing flashing through my head is how at one point in time, we suspected that Sadaam had basically stunt doubles of himself because of something with the DNA not matching... I don't remember a lot of it, but it makes me suspicious.

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I'm telling you you're wrong.

Quote (jtdurai)

So who are they? People who lived as a result of killing Osama bin Laden? People who were brought back to life when he died, maybe? I'm just guessing because you forgot to put it in your post.

People who died as a result of not taking the attack prior to 9/11 on the World Trade Center seriously enough. In fact I hear it was Al Queda themselves who attacked it the first time as well, as a matter of fact. Before you get smart and say there are still terrorists in the world and even in Al Queda, of course there are but any damage this one could've done has been effectively stopped for good, which by the way, is saying quite a lot considering his position as leader of the organization. Something that could not be otherwise guaranteed unless anybody around here purports to have prophetic fortune telling skills or has a stock of phoenix downs and life spells handy to save poor Aeris, I'd not be so hasty to call it ineffectual.

Quote (Stiltzkin)

But to be saying that they should have shot him outright without even trying to capture him is just wrong. Yes, I agree that it would have been difficult to try Bin Laden fairly. And yes, it would almost certainly have been a formality. But depending on the location of his trial, and the ruling jurisdiction; the sentence may not have been death.

And regardless of sentence - to go around executing your enemies without even attempting to capture/disarm/try them is the kind of behaviour that gets you stood in the dock at the Hague.

Just because America is one of the good guys from our perspective doesn't mean they are allowed to play fast and loose with human rights and justice.

I'd concede that perhaps it might be preferable to catch him alive but as to the sorts of tactics that may be permissible under any set of circumstances, I wouldn't be so close minded. If the only way we can reliably ensure the safety of his potential future victims is to catch him off guard without warning, then so be it. They may've only had one shot at this before it went bad for somebody else. Again it's not like the general public by large is in any sort of reasonable doubt as to his guilt so the one point he would've otherwise had going for him is largely moot. The man is a live and active threat, with malicious designs upon the world and instrumentally dangerous knowledge. More of a ticking time bomb than a person really. His human rights, whatever few he had left remaining, certainly don't supercede everybody else's and there's a basic human right to general safety; a basic human right to life, which he has violated and would violate time and time again. He needed stopping first and foremost and as I've mentioned above, that's what he got.

Also perhaps you could call me skeptical for this but I somewhat doubt if U.S. soldiers captured him they'd bring him to a jurisprudence where he'd suffer a fate less than death. They may have brought him to Guantanamo Bay or borrowed one of those infamously terrible chinese torture prisons, in which case Mr. Bin Laden got off rather lightly....

This post has been edited by Tonepoet on 3rd May 2011 03:06

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Role reversal at its finest.

Quote (Tonepoet @ 2nd May 2011 19:29)

Again it's not like the general public by large is in any sort of reasonable doubt as to his guilt so the one point he would've otherwise had going for him is largely moot. The man is a live and active threat, with malicious designs upon the world and instrumentally dangerous knowledge. More of a ticking time bomb than a person really. His human rights, whatever few he had left remaining, certainly don't supercede everybody else's and there's a basic human right to general safety; a basic human right to life, which he has violated and would violate time and time again. He needed stopping first and foremost and as I've mentioned above, that's what he got.

There's a metric f***ton of people who could be described thusly who we afford the right of due process. Just sayin...

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I agree with what Narratorway just said, and also what Stilzkin, Blitzsage and jtdurai were getting across. Honestly, what really has been resolved here? When the façade of civilisation is taken down, like here, people act like barbarians, cheering the deaths of enemies in the same way Winston did at the end of 1984. Let's not all get dragged into some perpetual cycle of retribution. We're better than that. C'mon.

This post has been edited by sweetdude on 3rd May 2011 04:58

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Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (Narratorway @ 2nd May 2011 23:22)

Quote (Tonepoet @ 2nd May 2011 19:29)

Again it's not like the general public by large is in any sort of reasonable doubt as to his guilt so the one point he would've otherwise had going for him is largely moot. The man is a live and active threat, with malicious designs upon the world and instrumentally dangerous knowledge. More of a ticking time bomb than a person really. His human rights, whatever few he had left remaining, certainly don't supercede everybody else's and there's a basic human right to general safety; a basic human right to life, which he has violated and would violate time and time again. He needed stopping first and foremost and as I've mentioned above, that's what he got.

There's a metric f***ton of people who could be described thusly who we afford the right of due process. Just sayin...

I don't want to stress this point, but people in the American government could be described in that way. The Iraq War resulted in well over 100,000 deaths (by the by, those are over 100,000 civilian deaths). And neither Bush nor anybody else in his administration were seriously considered for war crimes, despite the fact that they committed perjury about the war. Yes, bin Laden was an evil man, but there are many people whose hands are not clean.

Also, take a look at these Arab opinion polls. They clearly show that our actions have cast a negative image of us in the region. Case in point, the poll which shows us right behind Israel as the region's biggest threat. Why do people wonder where terrorism comes from? There it is. People in the region (and most of the polls there are stable in this regard) dislike our intervention.

And to sweetdude's point in bringing up the book 1984, I think that the imagery in the White House lawn is pretty grim. It shows signs of propoganda to me. The point is to make people in the U.S. feel strongly emotional, that way the U.S. can continue its foreign policy uninterrupted. And its that very foreign policy that is, in turn, creating terrorist networks.

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Praise Be To Helix!