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Quote (Dragon_Fire @ 6th November 2010 20:27)

I don't want to touch this make-believe fanboy war you're apparently so adamant about, because you're acting exactly in the fashion you present these people as behaving and not making any real, valid point about anything at all other than fanboys exist and are irrational. Thank you for that insight, I'm sure we all have learned something here. Now, can you please get over it? Fanboys exist for literally every franchise known to man and, shockingly, are an underwhelming minority in each case. Therefore, their opinions are irrelevant on any scale and if it concerns you so much that they act this way, I'd suggest finding better ways to spend your time. Let's drop it, shall we? You said it yourself that you've never met any of these people, so you're basically speaking for nothing and operating under a mountain of assumptions. I think we'd all be happy to agree that fanboys are stupid, but they have absolutely zero influence on the thing they fanboy over, thus they do not reduce the value of a game, or any other product. Period.
Or, drop everything and give us another Chrono-game. Seriously, Square, get on it.

All i meant was:

I don't know about the movies or dirge of cerberus if they are any good or the books,because i never played dirge of cerberus,i never watched the 2 movies and i dind't read the book.

I was merely judging ff7 by the original game and not the rest.

I also meant:I got a little insight about how some ff7 fans feel about the rest,but i haven't tried them so i don't feel 100% comfortable talking about them because i trust my gut feeling more than the word of some stranger.

The thing is,i judge things by what i like and not what someone else likes.

I try it out and if i like it,i will continue.

For the first time in my life during playstation era,i played the very first metal gear solid unaware about the others and since i loved the first one so much,i bought the second and third and fourth.


Since i honestly didn't like ff7 that much,i didn't buy crisis core or the others.

And what i meant was:The game by itself has many flaws overlooked by fanboys and this war i talked about is not make believe at all.

On youtube and google and even in schools,people fight over opinions because someone may like ff7.

I made several friends this year talking to them about ff7 what i liked and disliked and past year and became a little more social,and i saw the name on youtube of a person i had become friends with argue in writing because some guy made a really mean comment and was very offensive on ff7 and pushed so hard making plain rude arguments and not using any sort of valid argument,instead lowered to petty insults that the guy turned into a ff6 hater.

What i meant was:Sometimes these kind of things happen and sometimes these same kind of acts is what provokes the ff6 vs ff7 fight and ff6 and ff7 being overrated.

What i am saying is not irrelevant at all because i am trying to prove a point:

As long as this stupid ff6 vs ff7 argument goes on and both sides attack each other,the war will never end until both swallow their pride and back down.

And:FFIV FF7 and FFX are the three games that got a sequel.

Not sure about the rest but i know there was a plan of making a sequel to FFXIII.


As far as sales go,FFXII got a lot of love/hate.

More so than previous games used to ages ago.

I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing either,i suppose it just means that a lot of people disliked the gameplay/story and it sure got a lot of hate and i see plenty of people on youtube who slam on FFXII.

On the other hand,i've seen people who like it.

FFXIII i've seen 2 or 3 people,maybe 4 who seem to like it on youtube.

I've also seen twice as many who hate it.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Tiddles @ 6th November 2010 09:01)

Quote (ZidaneTribal @ 6th November 2010 07:43)

It's very annoying. It's like FF VII fans won't like FF 6 unless Celes grabbed a machine gun shot Kefka with some grenades while flying in the air for FF 7's fans to like it. It's annoying and stupid.

Skipping over the pedantic point that you're presumably referring to only the specific "blinkered" FF7 fans discussed in the topic... does it matter? Why should they like FF6?

People choose to like and dislike games for all sorts of absurd reasons. Some people are put off when the main character can turn into a helicopter, as if that's the most nonsensical thing in the game!

It's a bit irritating if they keep bashing your own preferred gaming choice in the process, but isn't this whole thread doing the same to them? Seems like fair play.

It's not really about them having to like the other Final Fantasies. Having to like, being the strong part of the sentence. But finding it annoying that they can't really see what makes the other Final Fantasies special or rather good games. It seems like some FF VII fans, not all of them, will ignore the other Final Fantasy games because they are not FF VII or not like FF VII.

Example the Celes sentence about some FF VII fans will not like her unless she looked cool and flew into the air while fighting like the Advent Children characters do. I'm annoyed because they put down a Final Fantasy game like FF VI because it's not FF VII and there's no machine guns or helicopters or men with long grey hair. If they don't like FF VI because they dislike the characters, graphics, storyline then that's fair enough, because it's their opinion. But turning up their noses on anything that's not FF VII or Crisis Core ? That's what's annoying.

Quote

Actually, despite whatever reviews the games received, both FFXII and FFXIII sold extremely well


Personally, I love Final Fantasy VII. I thought it was a brilliant game for it's time and I enjoyed playing it a great deal. Was it the best game ever? No, not by a long stretch. I wouldn't even call it the best Final Fantasy. It was, however, enjoyable as a game, by it's own merit and I will not change my opinion on that just because Square decides to make thirty other games under it's title.

Do the spin-offs take away from the quality of the game itself? No. They don't. At least, not by my reasoning. They might not be all that great (Dirge of Cerberus) or blatant-

Or, drop everything and give us another Chrono-game. Seriously, Square, get on it.

Yeah FF XII and FF XIII did great with sales and FF XII got a score of 40/40. Those games have their haters and likers though. They seem to be middle ground like Final Fantasy VIII.

Also Final Fantasy V got it's own anime in Japan. Even though sadly Bartz and the gang weren't in the anime and it was a new gang of Light Warriors.

I would like to think that way. To just ignore Advent Children, Crisis Core and DoC. But I see that they have destoryed what magic that the original game brought. Just a personal opinion. I believe that AC and the other prequels and sequels have damaged the original games. Mean Genesis is the reason why Sephiroth destoryed Nibelhiem ? Really ? It takes away what was originally in the the original. Also would have to disagree with you on SE touching Chrono Trigger. Look what happened to VII. Do we really want a "DoC" sequel Chrono Trigger ?!?

This post has been edited by ZidaneTribal on 7th November 2010 10:27

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Currently playing Chrono Trigger !!
Currently looking forward to Don't Know.

Quote (ZidaneTribal @ 7th November 2010 10:06)

Also Final Fantasy V got it's own anime in Japan. Even would have to disagree with you on SE touching Chrono Trigger. Look what happened to VII. Do we really want a "DoC" sequel Chrono Trigger ?!?

Well.. It could be a remake of chrono trigger.

Chrono trigger has a ds version so the next step would be the next hand held console remake like ff6 as well.

I can't remember if they did a remake for ff6 on ds or not because i thought i saw 3d graphics somewhere.


Going back to the subject:There are people who ignore older games because it has lesser graphics or because they refuse to play other games.

But to answer your question:there are also people who attack ff7 for no reason at all,or worse reasons.

A remake of ff7 for ps3 may actually solve part of the problem.(not a prequel or sequel,we got enough of those)

My thought is:perhaps if they get a remake in prettier 3d graphics,they will feel less threatened of being forgotten because of the old graphics,and perhaps this will also decrease their threatening pose towards ff6 and others.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

There really isn't any way that you can determine whether a game is good or not without an arbitrary opinion. Terms like "better" or "best" or "worst" are judgment calls made by people. There's no way that they could have any objective meaning outside of the human experience.

So anyone saying that "X game is better and Y game" or that "X game sucks" have no basis for expecting anyone else to agree. They can only state it as their opinion.

So arguing with people about which game is best seems a little pointless in the long run. Usually I only just express my opinion of things and leave it at that, but some people are so desperate to have their arbitrary feelings validated that they cannot resist trying to bring other people to their side of the argument.

Personally, I try to save the debates for things that are more objective.

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"Some fight for justice. Some fight for law . . .
. . .Cecil, what will you fight for?"
~KluYa

I still think ff7's characters are inferior and so is its villain to ff6's villain and ff6's characters and ff9's villain and characters.

For me,sephiroth felt a bit under developed as did cloud and his team.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Hm...allow me to play devil's advocate a bit here. First off, I am a lifelong VI fan, I vastly prefer the oldschool games to the newer ones, and I admit there's plenty that's wrong with VII. But characterization ain't one of its flaws, for the most part; I actually like Cloud as a character, he's got good internal conflict, he's dynamic, and he's just fairly interesting. I'm a big sucker for the Blade Runner plot twist, and actually if there's any point where Cloud falters it's at the end when he gets all his baggage resolved and just becomes a more or less standard RPG hero. The rest of the characters do okay too, except maybe Tifa, and she wasn't even developed till nearly the end of the story planning, and even then was just made to be a love interest after the initial love interest is no longer available, so I guess that's okay. Think about Barrett and Yuffie and, hell, even Cait Sith, they're all as well developed as the characters in VI, though I'll agree that the characters themselves aren't as interesting it's not for lack of trying. And as for the villain, you mean Sephiroth I guess? it's almost unfair to criticize him of bad characterization since he's only shown in the game twice, once in a flashback and one at the very, very end, and does he even talk at the end? (it's been a long while since I finished the game, so I could be mis-remembering.) And actually to this day I still enjoy the flashback scene, I have to admit. The other two villains, Jenova and Hojo, get plenty of screentime and both of which I think are developed quite well, Jenova through Gast's recordings and Hojo from his own nuttines.

I guess what it comes down to is that there are valid points to disliking VII (the plot itself is a confusing mess at times), but I would say that the character development isn't one of them.

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"If art doesn't risk upsetting expectations and challenging its audience, it can only stagnate."

Quote (trismegistus @ 9th November 2010 21:35)

I guess what it comes down to is that there are valid points to disliking VII (the plot itself is a confusing mess at times), but I would say that the character development isn't one of them.

I disagree.

The main problem with the characters is that i find them very unlikeable.

I found myself wanting to replace cloud with sephiroth because he seemed less of a jerk.

The problem with sephiroth though is different from clouds,he doesn't appear enough and say enough and give enough reason to hate him.

He barely even acts in a villainous way.

He appears about twice as you said and has about as much development as zeromus in ff4 or lavos in chrono trigger,which is next to none due to him being treated as a victim instead of giving him more of a reason to act out of selfishness.

He played the role of victim and he didn't actually provoke enough,for that ff7 has flaws.

Almost every character takes a back seat to cloud and aeris love story which doesn't work out because she dies before they can actually form a stronger relationship than what zack had with aeris.

He completely ignores tifa and leads and everybody else just allows him to lead without questioning his memories.

To me,this seems absolutely flawed and furthermore,if cloud was leading and in my team and acting the way he did,i'd want to slit his throat.

He just annoys me to no end.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 9th November 2010 18:35)

Quote (trismegistus @ 9th November 2010 21:35)

I guess what it comes down to is that there are valid points to disliking VII (the plot itself is a confusing mess at times), but I would say that the character development isn't one of them.

I disagree.

The main problem with the characters is that i find them very unlikeable.

I found myself wanting to replace cloud with sephiroth because he seemed less of a jerk.

The problem with sephiroth though is different from clouds,he doesn't appear enough and say enough and give enough reason to hate him.

He barely even acts in a villainous way.

He appears about twice as you said and has about as much development as zeromus in ff4 or lavos in chrono trigger,which is next to none due to him being treated as a victim instead of giving him more of a reason to act out of selfishness.

He played the role of victim and he didn't actually provoke enough,for that ff7 has flaws.

Almost every character takes a back seat to cloud and aeris love story which doesn't work out because she dies before they can actually form a stronger relationship than what zack had with aeris.

He completely ignores tifa and leads and everybody else just allows him to lead without questioning his memories.

To me,this seems absolutely flawed and furthermore,if cloud was leading and in my team and acting the way he did,i'd want to slit his throat.

He just annoys me to no end.

Just because you find a character unlikable or not to your personal tastes does not automatically imply they are poorly developed. The fact is that we are presented a character with an expansive history, internal conflict and several obstacles to overcome, internally, with his relationships with others, and even on the global scale of saving the world. Ultimately, you may not agree with the way he is portrayed and he may seem like a jerk, but there is absolutely both depth of character and development present throughout the story. Your complaints are all that the flaws in the Final Fantasy VII plot are simply that they didn't proceed how you wanted them to. Sorry, kiddo, but they didn't make the game specifically for you. Was Romeo and Juliet a lesser story because THEIR romance was denied before it could ever flourish? Without Aeris' death, the plot could never move forward.

I'd argue that burning down a village, killing the major love interest and threatening to destroy the world are all highly villainous acts, by the by. Maybe not to YOUR particular liking, but again, it works in the context of the game itself.

I think this is one of the stronger points of Final Fantasy VII; literally of it's characters had their own solid backgrounds and a valid, believable reason for participating in the party. Certainly much more than, say, Gau had in FF6. "I'm your friend! Let's travel together!"

Did their respective tales get tabled for the story of Cloud? Well, yes, but that's what happens when you have a single protagonist. He was the medium through which the player came to understand the world, so obviously he was the center of that world.



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Okay, but there was a goat!

Quote (Dragon_Fire @ 9th November 2010 22:56)

Just because you find a character unlikable or not to your personal tastes does not automatically imply they are poorly developed. The fact is that we are presented a character with an expansive history, internal conflict and several obstacles to overcome, internally, with his relationships with others, and even on the global scale of saving the world.

Just because you like them doesn-t mean they are automatically great.

Now you are implying:the writers of ff7 being infallible.

Cloud is complete utter bull for a character,he spends his time whining and acting like a jerk and saying first he does not care.

He was badly developed and the characters used the story for their own personal character development.

ff7-s characters are all pretty vastly overrated.

Ok so this is all opinions but so is yours.

Calling something a masterpiece doesn-t make it true,i could do that too you know.

I could call:sin city a masterpiece and even though it would be false,there are people who would agree.

Ever since final fantasy 7,i-ve found at least several characters unlikeable so its no coincidence.

ff7 story is convoluted as it is due to repeating things and mistranslations.

1:cloud should have gone with tifa and had a relation
2:Somehow make barret less a stereotype of black americans
3:make cait sith a little more likeable.
4:make yuffie less annoying
5:make vincent valentine do something except for look like some sort of goth vampire.

I swear,the only character less likeable in ff7 than cloud is vincent.
He has almost no character development.

He has like 2 minutes in comparison to everybody else who has 5 minutes and then takes a back seat to cloud and even he is unlikeable.

The game is not as great as it is proclaimed people,that is why it gets a lot of negative reviews.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 9th November 2010 22:35)

[QUOTE=trismegistus,9th November 2010 21:35] I

I found myself wanting to replace cloud with sephiroth because he seemed less of a jerk.

Wait what what what what ?!? Sephiroth was less of a jerk than Cloud ? Did we really play the same game ? Is there two different versions of FF VII out there ?
Because Cloud's mind was manipulated several times by Sephiroth and Sephiroth not only made Cloud have schizophrenic fits but also make him Aeris twice. Oh and he makes Cloud feel like a worthless nobody that's not worth being even being human and fools Cloud into thinking he's a worthless puppet.

Mean things Sephiroth does.

- Makes Cloud go insane several times
- Makes Cloud hit Aerith till she's injured
- Makes Cloud try and murder Aeris, one of his close friends.
- Makes Cloud feel like he's a worthless puppet
- Makes Cloud feel stupid and worthless and only worthy of nothing.

Mean things Cloud does

- Doesn't care about the planet.

Sephiroth is the true jerk, he's mean and terrible to Cloud !

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Currently playing Chrono Trigger !!
Currently looking forward to Don't Know.

Quote (ZidaneTribal @ 10th November 2010 11:53)

[QUOTE=Magitek_slayer,9th November 2010 22:35] [QUOTE=trismegistus,9th November 2010 21:35] I

I found myself wanting to replace cloud with sephiroth because he seemed less of a jerk.



[/QUOTE]

Wait what what what what ?!? Sephiroth was less of a jerk than Cloud ? Did we really play the same game ? Is there two different versions of FF VII out there ?
Because Cloud's mind was manipulated several times by Sephiroth and Sephiroth not only made Cloud have schizophrenic fits but also make him Aeris twice. Oh and he makes Cloud feel like a worthless nobody that's not worth being even being human and fools Cloud into thinking he's a worthless puppet.

Mean things Sephiroth does.

- Makes Cloud go insane several times
- Makes Cloud hit Aerith till she's injured
- Makes Cloud try and murder Aeris, one of his close friends.
- Makes Cloud feel like he's a worthless puppet
- Makes Cloud feel stupid and worthless and only worthy of nothing.

Mean things Cloud does

- Doesn't care about the planet.

Sephiroth is the true jerk, he's mean and terrible to Cloud !

Ahh and him complaining to barret and saying he doesn-t care about the world and only cares about money isn-t being a jerk?

Or him completely ignoring tifa and crying over aeris death not a jerk?

Aeris died and he barely knew her,and he knew tifa much longer and still didn-t go with her.

She knew him MUUUUUUCH better and still he was obsessed more with sephiroth than he was with tifa or the other.

In fact,i-d say he-s almost as bad as sephiroth himself.

And besides:The whole thing with sephiroth planning the whole thing came later and contradicts him being a victim because clearly he was a victim.

He was made by hojo and he was angry and driven crazy.

If you found out that you were experimented on and given something that can drive you insane because it is shown how hojo who is already a bit crazy injected jenova cells inside himself and it drove him even crazier,then i think it is very possible that that part certainly didn-t help to a already terrible trauma.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

How can you compare not caring about other people and ignoring them to killing people and trying to destroy the world?

Because:He at least played a victim and before he went insane,he was not such a jerk.



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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

But he was a jerk after he went insane. And Cloud wasn't a jerk towards the end.

I don't get your logic.

Quote (Cefca @ 10th November 2010 14:08)

But he was a jerk after he went insane. And Cloud wasn't a jerk towards the end.

I don't get your logic.

My logic is:of the more likeable characters:sephiroth was more likable than cloud.

And i didn-t care particularly for either because they both were vastly overrated.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Yeah, and he didn't ignore Tifa. It seemed very likely that they would get together at the end. And, we all cried over Aeris' death, right? (oh, I can't be the only one, lol).

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 10th November 2010 16:24)

Yeah, and he didn't ignore Tifa. It seemed very likely that they would get together at the end. And, we all cried over Aeris' death, right? (oh, I can't be the only one, lol).

Ok so that music made me sad,but its nobuo uematsu and he makes some really brilliant music.

Nobuo uematsu is a genius.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 10th November 2010 06:22)

Quote (Dragon_Fire @ 9th November 2010 22:56)

Just because you find a character unlikable or not to your personal tastes does not automatically imply they are poorly developed. The fact is that we are presented a character with an expansive history, internal conflict and several obstacles to overcome, internally, with his relationships with others, and even on the global scale of saving the world.

Just because you like them doesn-t mean they are automatically great.

Now you are implying:the writers of ff7 being infallible.

Cloud is complete utter bull for a character,he spends his time whining and acting like a jerk and saying first he does not care.

He was badly developed and the characters used the story for their own personal character development.

ff7-s characters are all pretty vastly overrated.

Ok so this is all opinions but so is yours.

Calling something a masterpiece doesn-t make it true,i could do that too you know.

I could call:sin city a masterpiece and even though it would be false,there are people who would agree.

Ever since final fantasy 7,i-ve found at least several characters unlikeable so its no coincidence.

ff7 story is convoluted as it is due to repeating things and mistranslations.

1:cloud should have gone with tifa and had a relation
2:Somehow make barret less a stereotype of black americans
3:make cait sith a little more likeable.
4:make yuffie less annoying
5:make vincent valentine do something except for look like some sort of goth vampire.

I swear,the only character less likeable in ff7 than cloud is vincent.
He has almost no character development.

He has like 2 minutes in comparison to everybody else who has 5 minutes and then takes a back seat to cloud and even he is unlikeable.

The game is not as great as it is proclaimed people,that is why it gets a lot of negative reviews.

I'm convinced you're actually going out of your way to miss the point. Honestly, I don't know where you get any of the things you say from, it's like you never actually played the game at all.

I've already stated that I don't think Final Fantasy VII is a masterpiece or the best game ever. I've also made the case that there is no such thing as a perfect game and that blind fanaticism is stupid. The writers certainly were not infallible, the game had it's plot holes and inconsistencies, and there were plenty of things I didn't necessarily feel were necessary at all. Again, you seem to think that personal distaste for behavior or actions equates to poor development and characters. Again, just because you think the story should have gone one way and it went the other doesn't take away from the plot.

Cloud and Tifa, for example, spent their last night together before the final assault and found comfort in each other. They bonded, and there was the hint of romance. However, let's also remember that the last person Cloud felt attached to was just recently murdered, and he had to discover that his feelings for her may not have even been his own, but the memories of someone else entirely. So, with all that on his mind, I don't think anyone would just be willing to jump into their next relationship, unless they had the memory of a goldfish, the hormones of a 15 year old and attention span of a dog.

And, yeah, ignoring a childhood friend's romantic interests is totally just as bad as burning down a village and murdering all it's inhabitants. That makes absolute sense. Likewise, let's ignore the progression of the characters and how they gradually come to actually care for the fate of the planet and only focus on how Cloud states, once or twice at the beginning, that he didn't care.


At any rate, I'm not going to sit here and defend each and every character just because you didn't like them. You're allowed to think what you want of them, the game itself and all it's hype. However, you've been mindlessly repeating the same things over and over and I think everyone else has got the point. You think it was overrated, fine, but you're starting to sound like the annoying child who hates things just because they're popular and they want to seem different, like the people who stop listening to artists as soon as they get mainstream attention because they've 'sold out' or something.

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Okay, but there was a goat!

There's a big difference between not liking someone's characterization and them being poorly developed, Magitek. While I don't necessarily disagree with you on some of the points you raised, none of them have to do with development. Take for instance Vincent: I fully and totally agree he's an unlikable, rather dismal character; however he's just as well-developed in the storyline as the other characters in the game. His plot moment might be in a sidequest, but it's still there, and it does flesh him out just as much as the others. And as I said, for the most part the characters in VII are as well-developed as those as VI, in both games, with the exception of a main character (or two, in VI) the characters get a shot of development when you meet them, and then another shot at their respective sidequest/story event.

In fact, if I may again play devil's advocate, despite you saying that Sephiroth is 'poorly developed', I'd say he has leagues more storyline development than Kefka. Don't get me wrong, Kefka's one of my all-time favourite villains, but the entirely of his backstory comes from one guy in Vector's pub, whereas Sephiroth's first appearance in the flashback is ALL backstory and development.

And lastly, regarding Cloud continuing to follow Seph instead of settling down with Tifa, well, I always felt that the entirely of Cloud's character was him trying to break free of Sephiroth and become his own person, so of course he's going to follow the man until the end. I had said in another thread that the final, final battle was symbolic of Cloud overcoming Sephiroth and Sephiroth overcoming Jenova, both men freeing themselves from that which wanted to use them. While I certainly don't want to turn this into a 'Jenova is the real enemy' thread, it makes sense that Cloud would want answers from a man who looms so large over his own life.

This post has been edited by trismegistus on 10th November 2010 20:35

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"If art doesn't risk upsetting expectations and challenging its audience, it can only stagnate."

Quote (trismegistus @ 10th November 2010 18:42)

There's a big difference between not liking someone's characterization and them being poorly developed, Magitek. While I don't necessarily disagree with you on some of the points you raised, none of them have to do with development. Take for instance Vincent: I fully and totally agree he's an unlikable, rather dismal character; however he's just as well-developed in the storyline as the other characters in the game. His plot moment might be in a sidequest, but it's still there, and it does flesh him out just as much as the others. And as I said, for the most part the characters in VII are as well-developed as those as VI, in both games, with the exception of a main character (or two, in VI) the characters get a shot of development when you meet them, and then another shot at their respective sidequest/story event.

In fact, if I may again play devil's advocate, despite you saying that Sephiroth is 'poorly developed', I'd say he has leagues more storyline development than Kefka. Don't get me wrong, Kefka's one of my all-time favourite villains, but the entirely of his backstory comes from one guy in Vector's pub, whereas Sephiroth's first appearance in the flashback is ALL backstory and development.

And lastly, regarding Cloud continuing to follow Seph instead of settling down with Tifa, well, I always felt that the entirely of Cloud's character was him trying to break free of Sephiroth and become his own person, so of course he's going to follow the man until the end. I had said in another thread that the final, final battle was symbolic of Cloud overcoming Sephiroth and Sephiroth overcoming Jenova, both men freeing themselves from that which wanted to use them. While I certainly don't want to turn this into a 'Jenova is the real enemy' thread, it makes sense that Cloud would want answers from a man who looms so large over his own life.

I think its simply not well done and executed in story and character.

I do not sympathise with cloud at all and can-t stand him as a character.

I found that i did not sympathize with anybody in the game and other than maybe aeris death because she was innocent and stupid for not realizing that sephiroth was going to jump out of nowhere and stab her.

As for character development of sephiroth:he feels two dimensional.

Sephiroth tries to play mixed roles and then changes.

First it seems as if you are supposed to sympathise with him and then allt he sudden,squeenix changes that.

It just seems like poorly executed character development,he also does not say anything.

And the dialogue is atrocious,i mean the whole cloud dressing up like a girl? was that supposed to be funny? sorry but i found it horrid.

Also,sephiroth spent like 5 seconds before going from angry pretty boy to cliche rpg anime villain.

He has nothing on kefka.

Kefka at least acts evil and even though he is insane he has something known as:a motive to want to make himself go through those experiments.

See:kefka put himself through the magitek experiments because he is ambitious and cares not for his own well being as long as it advances his cause.

Sephiroth:He was not insane at first and it hurt him and drove him mad.
He had some ambition but not that much be innately evil.

Sephiroth was not innately evil in ff7 and furthermore was also driven to please his mommy.

To me,it seems more like he was getting veangance on the people who hurt him and not so much anything else.

Barret is a walking stereotype for african americans and its annoying to see those simbols to cover up his swearing.

He-s very annoying and not interesting.

In fact,i could compare ff7-s cast to FFXIII-s cast.

Snow and cloud have this quality that just annoys me.

Stupidity arrogance and foolish behavior that made me want to punch him.

You want me to go on? i will if you want.

FF6 characters:
Terra:Not as memorable in ff6 as the rest and not my favorite
Locke:much more memorable than cloud ever was,he has an interesting backstory and he isnt just a anxed little pretty boy.

Edgar:Great character,even his reactions have something memorable

You want to know why ff7 falls flat? because it doesnt seem realistic at all or even plausible.

If i was cloud,there are many things i would not have done that he did
If i was barret,i would have not followed cloud in some instances and at the beginning beat some sense into this jerk.

If i was tifa,i would have told him flat out to ditch that girl,she does not love him and that she is zacks girl,even if he died.

I know i sound like a jerk for complaining,but final fantasy characters are not that great anymore and are just a bunch of copy paste with less interesting character develoment,its just old and stale.

ff7 was just the beginning this realization as you play something like dragon age origins where characters actually react and have conversations with eachother and better dialogue.

I mean:Apart from the story and looking cool,would it hurt to actually make cloud more likeable and have more personality? he has the personality of dry white bread.

FF6 was flawed as well in some of those aspects, but it was less obvious because it was very old and it was an upgrade from ff4 which also has its flaws.

You see:Final fantasy games and several other jrpgs from other genres use very similar copy paste formulaes.

These formulas have been repeated and few times have i seen anything completely different.

This does not take into account the gameplay as ff8 was a disaster and the reason i don-t like final fantasy anymore.

I think ff8 officially killed final fantasy series by making long interactive movies and over the top romance and cutscenes.


This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 10th November 2010 21:26

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

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I found that i did not sympathize with anybody in the game and other than maybe aeris death because she was innocent and stupid for not realizing that sephiroth was going to jump out of nowhere and stab her.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it her intention to allow Sephiroth to kill her so she could return to the lifestream and use it and Holy to defeat Meteor?

"This secret is just up here. At least it should be. ...I feel it. It feels like I'm being led by something. Then, I'll be going now. I'll come back when it's all over.

And even just before you see Sephiroth falling from above to kill her, she seems to have accepted it.

Quote

Sephiroth tries to play mixed roles and then changes.

First it seems as if you are supposed to sympathise with him and then allt he sudden,squeenix changes that.

It just seems like poorly executed character development,he also does not say anything.

When exactly are you supposed to sympathise with him? When he destroys Nibelheim in the flashback? When he kills Aeris? When he summons Meteor? Seems to me like you're never supposed to feel sympathy for him.

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And the dialogue is atrocious,i mean the whole cloud dressing up like a girl? was that supposed to be funny? sorry but i found it horrid.

That's gameplay and story, not dialogue. Dialogue is what people actually say.

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To me,it seems more like he was getting veangance on the people who hurt him and not so much  anything else.

If that's all he was doing, he would have stopped at killing President Shinra. And why didn't he kill Hojo? Was the whole world involved in this experiements that created him? No.

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Barret is a walking stereotype for african americans and its annoying to see those simbols to cover up his swearing.

Big fat "who cares"?

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ff7 was just the beginning this realization as you play something like dragon age origins where characters actually react and have conversations with eachother and better dialogue.

How can you compare the two games when FFVII is twelve years older? Believe it or not, technology has come a long way in those years, of course a game from 2009 can have characters that interact more with each other. You can do a lot more with the 360, PS3, etc than you can with the PS1.


You might not like to admit it, but these fanboys you hate? You're clearly one of them. Just not for FFVII, obviously.

You find every tiniest nitpick to hate the game and that's exactly what fanboys do.

This post has been edited by Cefca on 10th November 2010 21:55

Quote (Cefca @ 10th November 2010 21:52)

How can you compare the two games when FFVII is twelve years older? Believe it or not, technology has come a long way in those years, of course a game from 2009 can have characters that interact more with each other. You can do a lot more with the 360, PS3, etc than you can with the PS1.


You might not like to admit it, but these fanboys you hate? You're clearly one of them. Just not for FFVII, obviously.

You find every tiniest nitpick to hate the game and that's exactly what fanboys do.

Ever heard of ultima?

Ultima series explores virtues and reasoning.

Ultima series goes from:killing the typical villain who is trying to conquer the world to exploring virtues and corruption of those virtues,and its older than final fantasy.

It was not as complex in the 80-s and it actually got better as time passed.

Also,ff6 is also flawed in some of those manners.

Its a jrpg and jrpgs use very similar gameplay mechanics.

Its just that in the early and mid 90-s,it was less obvious that those flaws existed.

This is my opinion and you do not have to share it,but i think the game gets way too much credit for its characters when it stole things from previous games.

FF5:killed off main character:Galuf.
FF6:became god and ruled world and against an evil corporation
FF2 nes:FF6 stole the whole evil empire from ff2 nes.
Evil crazy warrior who loves his mom:Not done in anything that i know of.

If anything:i simply do not fall for cloud or sephy,i simply do not find them that great or see what is the big deal.

If you are judging me because of that,then you are a ff7 fanboy trying to convince me that ff7 is better which makes you a ff7 fanboy.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

If you want to bring Ultima into it, I could just as easily call it a glorified pen and paper RPG.

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Its just that in the early and mid 90-s,it was less obvious that those flaws existed.

The mid 90s, you mean about the time FFVII came out? Or does it conveniently start becoming obvious about that time? How do the three years between the two games make such a big difference?

You say VII gets way too much credit for things it stole, then list a whole lot of other games doing the exact same thing. Guess what? Games take ideas from other games, it happens across the whole gaming industry, not just with Final Fantasy.

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If you are judging me because of that,then you are a ff7 fanboy trying to convince me that ff7 is better which makes you a ff7 fanboy.

Oh yes, the FFVII fanboy with the FFVI username, FFVI avatar that lists FFVII about 4th in his list of favourite FFs. Bravo.

You are defending ff7 religiously.

How is that not blatant fanboyism?

You refuse to acknowledge ff7s flaws with its characters and how they did not seem as likeable as ff6 or even ff4 or even ff9.

And for your info American rpgs are ahead in character,unlike jrpgs which pretty much use copy paste character development.

The problem with games nowadays is they use stereotype anime copy paste of the typical hero.

Its hard to find a good character who is different from the typical anxing teenage problems.


This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 10th November 2010 23:05

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 10th November 2010 23:02)

You are defending ff7 religiously.

How is that not blatant fanboyism?

Logic isn't your strong point, is it? If I was an FFVII fanboy, why isn't it my favourite FF let along my favourite game? Seriously, I want you to answer that question.

I'm not even defending the game, all I'm doing is pointing out the flaws in your fanboy hate for the game.

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You refuse to acknowledge ff7s flaws with its characters   and how they did not seem as likeable as ff6 or even ff4 or even ff9.

I don't acknowledge your comments about it because seeing characters as likeable is completely subjective. One person could love FFVI's characters and hate FFIX's, yet another person could love IX's and hate VI's.

Just because you don't like the characters, doesn't mean everyone else should hate them too.

This post has been edited by Cefca on 10th November 2010 23:16

Look people,i don-t like the characters and for me,characters are a strong point.

Get over it.

If i don-t like sephiroth cloud and tifa and yuffie and vincent and barret,then accept it and move on.

If you don-t like the characters,its hard to like the game,or at least for me it is.

In ff9,i didn-t like eiko because she seemed childish,get used to it

A guy earlier said he didn-t like ff4 and hated it extreme,do you bash him for it? no why me? because i criticize ff7s characters and say i think they are dumb and poorly drawn out .

This is my opinion like it or not.

FF6 is not the only game i play,i play other games that are better and i also play games that may be worse.

I simply do not like ff7 as a whole at all and cant get into it.

The moment the screen starts i want to turn it off.

Half an hour to an hour into ff8,i want to turn it off and never play it again.

Some games you simply dont like and i legitimately dont like ff7s characters,they annoy me to hell.



This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 10th November 2010 23:34

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 10th November 2010 23:21)

No,what i am complaining is you attacking me.

Cloud whines and is unlikeable.

The characters are a joke.

Cloud has like what:2 different emotions?

There is nothing wrong with liking ff7,i am very tired of people proclaiming it the best game ever.

You said best is a subjective opinion.

One way to know if something is truly good is to see if it stands the test of time.

If ff7 in 5 years is gone,then it has failed.

How am I attacking you? Surely if I'm attacking you, then you must also be attacking me?

Why can you have such a problem with people calling it the best game ever yet we can't have a problem with you saying the opposite?

It's lasted nearly 14 years so far, I think it'll last another 5.

Quote (Cefca @ 10th November 2010 23:29)

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 10th November 2010 23:21)

No,what i am complaining is you attacking me.

Cloud whines and is unlikeable.

The characters are a joke.

Cloud has like what:2 different emotions?

There is nothing wrong with liking ff7,i am very tired of people proclaiming it the best game ever.

You said  best is a subjective opinion.

One way to know if something is truly good is to see if it stands the test of time.

If ff7 in 5 years is gone,then it has failed.

How am I attacking you? Surely if I'm attacking you, then you must also be attacking me?

Why can you have such a problem with people calling it the best game ever yet we can't have a problem with you saying the opposite?

It's lasted nearly 14 years so far, I think it'll last another 5.

I still think its just another game,nothing more nothing less.

We will see how long ff6 and ff7 attest the to time.

And as for attacks:

Logic isn't your strong point, is it? If I was an FFVII fanboy, why isn't it my favourite FF let along my favourite game? Seriously, I want you to answer that question.

You find every tiniest nitpick to hate the game and that's exactly what fanboys do.

Because fanboys don-t they just say this game sucks because its emo?

Isnt that what fanboys like miraclekd18 say?

Im actually arguing that the characters personal development is questionable.

In ff6,we see cyan go through a lot of changes when his wife dies.

The quirky moments in the game also add depth to it.

Same goes for even steiner in ff9.

He is a stubborn soldier who out of own stubborness makes quite a few stupid mistakes.

This and the romance even though its childish at moments,makes him likeable.

Cloud even with his overcomplicated story has flaws in the story.

The story itself is incomplete and untill later on the pieces fit in together that he is full of self doubt about what happened and confused about things.

I did not really care for his backstory as i found him very uninteresting,so like it or not,i don-t like the characters i find them uninteresting and bland.

Its my opinion and you cannot prove that the characters are developed because it is subjective.

Its like trying to prove an orange is better than an apple.



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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 10th November 2010 19:43)

Wall of Nonsense 2.0

No one is begrudging anyone their opinions to this or any other game, nor are we attacking anyone for what they might feel toward certain characters. However, character development is not nearly as subjective as an opinion and can absolutely be proven through in-game text, dialogue and the general game narrative. It is a device, and as a result, there are cases within the game that support this 'development.' Now, again, it might not be in the direction you want it to be, or in a way you like or find reasonable, but again, that doesn't mean it isn't there. It just means you don't like it, is all.

Many of the things you credited, such as Cyan's change at the loss of his wife, is echoed in VII, such as Barrett's change with the fall of the plate over the slums, or Cloud's loss of Aeris. Steiner was a stubborn, sometimes over zealous servant of his kingdom and Queen, well, Vincent was a stubborn and loyal member of the Turks. My point is that, the development exists. It might not be brilliant, you don't have to like it, but it's there.

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Okay, but there was a goat!

Clouds relationship with aeris:

It exists but the main issue with that is they have not nearly enough time.

It takes a long time to develop a relationship and i felt as if it was cut too short.

I felt also that the transfomation from hero to evil crazy villain also happened too quickly with sephiroth,it felt like there as no build.

I felt like:they could have added something more to add more and maybe make him appear more often.

My issue with him is:What i liked about kefka was,he was actually giving me a reason to hate him,he acted selfishly and he really wanted power to supply his ego with more fuel.

With sephiroth:I didn-t feel that.

I felt like he was misguided and lost child.

It felt more like the way ed gein was evil.

He acted in a certain way because he was insane and a victim and in the end he had to die because it had to end the atrocity.

He was a villain,but he was also a victim of society and in the end you could not help but feel that perhaps if he had not found that book and read it,that he would have continued to be a soldier without knowing.

Sometimes it is best to be ignorant on such matters of hurt been done upon you.

I felt like:Vincents only job was to link lucrecia with sephiroth and to tell cloud about it.

And as for the plate falls:It was shinra-s fault to destroy the seventh heaven.

That is the part where cloud gets back from falling into the church right? and he goes back there and there are some members of avalanche on a tower and they are going to blow it up to make the huge plate from above to fall upon clouds head.

I still feel that they didn-t put enough feeling into it.

And as for marlene,wasnt she his adoptive daughter?

She didn-t die though and cyan had it far worse,he lost his whole kindgom and his wife and son.

At leat you aren-t attacking me like cefca is.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.