Track this topic | Email this topic | Print this topic

Hello

I wish to talk about what makes a villain great


I was thinking about this and there are several factors that help

1:Background

Example:Sephiroth's past

I think there are some things here that could have been changed

For one,make him less likeable.

2:Inherently evil acts that are attrocious.

example:poisoning doma even though general leo said not to.
He ignored him and went out and did it and had no empathy.

I think for one that they could have shown a little of his path but without making it overly melodramatic and erm i would have made him inherently evil.

3:arrogance manipulation and sorts

example:kuja

He used queen brahne by givingher hope of power and giving her a little power to control her,he was using those soldiers all along to get what he wanted.

I was kind of annoyed that he did all that and then in the end he became good.

But i understand it since he had lost anyways and wondered how he could lose.


FF downsides:

1:insanity:Seriously overused.
I wish they would find something else and not try to make an excuse for them being evil,can't they be corrupt with desire for power without being evil? showing how they are charming and make you fall in love with them to then betray you ultimately and do something in the end that makes you really hate em and want to kill em over and over?

I think shinra is a excellent villain and hojo is underrated as a villain himself

Both shinra and heidgeiger or whatever his name and hojo are underrated.

They may be basic villains but they too have principles

What are they? they

1:shinra is selfish and only cares about money and power
They don't care if they destroy the planet

Rank:8.5 or about 9 They have the power to stop destroying the world but they don't care,they would rather destroy the world than admit they are wrong and give up their power.

2:Rufus and the president before him were both narcissists and loved hearing the sounds of their voice.

7-8:he is the leader of midgar and has the power to stop it,but like all politicians he has his hands in the game

3:Hojo Sociopath or psychopath possibly and to add very much insane
I would say anyone who experiments on his own son and does something that would not only traumatize him but also destroy the relationship if the son found out is pretty damm evil.

He didn't care about anyones feelings on it,he did it because he wanted to and created a monster.

I say he doesn't get enough credit

Rank:10 he's pretty bad
Heidgeiger:All he cares about is the war economy
He is just like real life politicians,and his interest is:PROFIT!! yes war and profit.he is bad but not as bad as hojo.

Rank:6 Evil since he too is involved in the war economy and is trying to keep it going
The turks:These guys don't get nearly enough praise either

For one:

They have no values on killing people,they will kill anyone without questions.

They don't care if the company they work for is destroying the world or trying to cover up the flaws of the past or erasing those who have the sensitive information that could hurt shinra.

Rank:7:pretty damm evil.


What do you guys think? do you think the little guys don't get enough attention?



--------------------

We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 16th January 2010 15:56)

1:Background

...

2:Inherently evil acts that are attrocious.

...

3:arrogance manipulation and sorts

...

FF downsides:

1:insanity:Seriously overused.

A good background and manipulation are brilliant in evil characters I agree. To be honest I think inherently evil acts should be in the 'overused' category. I watched Pitch Black again, and was, once again, completely immersed into the clever little relationships between the characters, where you don't know who's good and who's bad. It really pushes the question as to what is evil and what is just natural. I've said this far too many times now, but Ashe is a great character because it's not clear whether she's falling into evil but human ways when she wants to wreak vengeance upon the empire for annexing her kingdom. Arguably she is one of the villains in FFXII, but only with a bit of a stretch of the imagination.

I think FF should try harder to achieve some sort of ambiguity regarding who's the main villain, rather than just an obviously evil person who may or may not repent before the power behind them (Garland, Yu Yevon, Jenova, Ultimecia, FFIV which I can't remember et al) shoots to the front of the plot as the real enemy.

Oh, and, I've read some pretty complicated texts in my time, full of subtle innuendos and meaning which is difficult to ascertain, especially now that I'm revising for my law exams, but this OP was probably more difficult to understand than anything I've read so far in 2010. It reminds me of the stream of conciousness in The Sound and the Fury.

--------------------

Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (sweetdude @ 17th January 2010 18:06)

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 16th January 2010 15:56)

1:Background

...

2:Inherently evil acts that are attrocious.

...

3:arrogance manipulation and sorts

...

FF downsides:

1:insanity:Seriously overused.

A good background and manipulation are brilliant in evil characters I agree. To be honest I think inherently evil acts should be in the 'overused' category. I watched Pitch Black again, and was, once again, completely immersed into the clever little relationships between the characters, where you don't know who's good and who's bad. It really pushes the question as to what is evil and what is just natural. I've said this far too many times now, but Ashe is a great character because it's not clear whether she's falling into evil but human ways when she wants to wreak vengeance upon the empire for annexing her kingdom. Arguably she is one of the villains in FFXII, but only with a bit of a stretch of the imagination.

I think FF should try harder to achieve some sort of ambiguity regarding who's the main villain, rather than just an obviously evil person who may or may not repent before the power behind them (Garland, Yu Yevon, Jenova, Ultimecia, FFIV which I can't remember et al) shoots to the front of the plot as the real enemy.

Oh, and, I've read some pretty complicated texts in my time, full of subtle innuendos and meaning which is difficult to ascertain, especially now that I'm revising for my law exams, but this OP was probably more difficult to understand than anything I've read so far in 2010. It reminds me of the stream of conciousness in The Sound and the Fury.

I am not talking about obviously evil

Some characters are cloaked and hide their evil and are charming you into their hearts to get whatever they need from you.

What i mean is more in black white or grey zone characters.

Kefka had more than 1 layer wich made him great.

Sure you hated him,but gestahl was questionable and yet you weren't 100% sure if he was going to betray you.

He didn't make his reasons clear till later and then BOOM he shows hist true colours by releasing kefka.

And some evil villains have well certain characteristics and they aren't necessarily the main villain of the game but their reason for doing something and insanity involved because no sane person would do(hojo)

Hojo for an example was obviously sick,but there seemed to be more there.



--------------------

We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

I think they should make an FF game where you play the villain and you're battling to topple the forces of good. It's fun to do bad things in video games that you can't get away with in real life.

--------------------

Sabin: Kefka! Wait!
Kefka: Wait he says! Do I look like a waiter?

Quote

I think they should make an FF game where you play the villain and you're battling to topple the forces of good. It's fun to do bad things in video games that you can't get away with in real life.

I agree. Dissidia had some potential for this, but instead even when you play the bad guys, the best you can do is beat up Chaos. Beating up Chaos isn't an evil deed.

But it would take much from the series. For one, it would involve playing just one character. Not FF-ish at all.

But it would be fun. The Final Boss: Four Light Warriors!

--------------------

Snooping as usual, I see?

Quote (Toransu Kuja @ 25th January 2010 16:36)

Quote

I think they should make an FF game where you play the villain and you're battling to topple the forces of good. It's fun to do bad things in video games that you can't get away with in real life.

I agree. Dissidia had some potential for this, but instead even when you play the bad guys, the best you can do is beat up Chaos. Beating up Chaos isn't an evil deed.

But it would take much from the series. For one, it would involve playing just one character. Not FF-ish at all.

But it would be fun. The Final Boss: Four Light Warriors!

For some reason, they've never been able to capitalize on that idea for any game, let alone FF. Sure, some games give you "choices," but normally, those don't actually make your the villain. Who here wouldn't want to play as Kefka or Sephiroth?

--------------------

Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 26th January 2010 06:26)

Who here wouldn't want to play as Kefka or Sephiroth?

I wouldn't.
My loathing of Sephy aside, their plots just aren't fit for central character plots. They are very nicely drawn and work brilliantly when narrated as an antagonists plot, but playing from their side of the story would make it completely unentertaining.

I would love to see a Squenix game with a villain protagonist, but a game centered around any of the FF Big Bads just wouldn't cut it.

--------------------

"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

one thing that always bugged me was the oversight of ultimecia in ff viii. im not advocating anything great about the game here, its just that everyone says kefka was the only one who actually destroyed the world, but ultimecia did it to. not only that, but she also killed every single human being, save for a handful of people due to a (albeit very very stupid) loophole while kefka let whole cities live. sure the land was scorched, but it seems that the only thing that changed was a couple houses were broken and the grass changed color. not trying to rock the boat here, but you have to look around to other villians too.

but, i digress. i would also hate playing as the villian. sometimes the mystery of know how they got to the twisted point they are at is something better left unknown. also, seeing everything through their eyes would suck

This post has been edited by dont chocobos rule? on 26th January 2010 13:39

--------------------

Aujourdhui a commence avec toi.

I think what makes a good villain isn't the sheer scale of destruction that they wreak( The heroes probably kill a lot more than the villains. random encounters) but what they personally did to the heroes. The whole you-killed-my-chick-I'm-gonna-kick-yo'-ass motivation is overused, but why is it overused? Because i'ts good. For instance the

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

killing of aeris (Does this still need to be spoilered?)

is what is cited as making Sephiroth one of, if not the, greatest villains of all time.

Also having traits which we find to be atrocious, like mass murder, manipulation, narcissisim and selfishness, help add to the villain.

And a game where you're the villain probably wouldn't be allowed*sigh* because it would make children want to be evil, drug dealers, rapists, racists, sexists and/or mass murderers. Unless they make the hero do "evil" things inadvertantly which is like being a villain.

--------------------

Since I advertise CoN there I think it's only fair that I advertise The Wiki here.

Quote (R8.50 Mango @ 26th January 2010 10:09)

I think what makes a good villain isn't the sheer scale of destruction that they wreak( The heroes probably kill a lot more than the villains. random encounters) but what they personally did to the heroes. The whole you-killed-my-chick-I'm-gonna-kick-yo'-ass motivation is overused, but why is it overused? Because i'ts good. For instance the

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

killing of aeris (Does this still need to be spoilered?)

is what is cited as making Sephiroth one of, if not the, greatest villains of all time.

Also having traits which we find to be atrocious, like mass murder, manipulation, narcissisim and selfishness, help add to the villain.

And a game where you're the villain probably wouldn't be allowed*sigh* because it would make children want to be evil, drug dealers, rapists, racists, sexists and/or mass murderers. Unless they make the hero do "evil" things inadvertantly which is like being a villain.

This post sounds more like Kuja than Seph. Kuja even one ups in terms of destruction and personal affronts to the characters with his attack on Alexandria.
Plus of all the villians he was the most preening, narcissistic prima donna of them all. His villainious motivation for destroying the world was tied to that, what with the whole "If I'm going to die, then there's no way the world should outlive me".
While Kefka had lesser reasons (he was insane and he just could), Sephiroth developed a God complex to the mass of other ones he had, and Ulitmecia wanted to do...something, Kuja's reasonings were the most selfish of them all.

Tying into the excellent villain traits, the same could be said to Ultimecia in a way. Manipulation was all she did throughout the first three discs of the game, mass murder was essentially her plan with time compression, and as for narcissisim, compare what Edea looked like before she possessed her and then what she looked like after. Then there's the dress that she's actually wearing when you confront her...

Yeah, it's true that a game where you're willingly allowed to kick the dog wouldn't be allowed. The best we can hope for is something like FFXIII has, with the characters being seen as the villains of the game.

--------------------

"Though the hours take no notice of what fate might have in store, our love come what may, will never age a day! I'll wait forever more!"- "Aria de Mezzo Carattere" Final Fantasy VI

I was thinking what i would like to see in a villain.

I would like to see a villain who actually charms the heroes and the player and tricks him constantly making him unsure if the guy is bad or good.

This would work obviously to the villain's advantage.

A villain who charms you and then turns on you,to make you the player say:

whatever your name is,don't fall into that trap again.

And then to do something to surprise the player from being charmed into thinking the way the villain does,or tricking the player to believe the lie.

But to do it not once,but twice.

Moderator Edit

Sigh, you really just love the f-word, don't you? -R51

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 27th January 2010 17:20

--------------------

We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Don't know why you see Kuja becoming a good person at the end such a tragedy, after seeing Sephiroth and Ultimeca two villains that were coldhearted and merciless it was a nice change to see a Villian that wasn't really a coldhearted jerk, but he actually had faults at heart and was misunderstood, it seems more real than a villain like Sephiroth or Cloud of Darkness..



--------------------

Currently playing Chrono Trigger !!
Currently looking forward to Don't Know.

I liked the comment Sweetdude made about Ashe. I do like when there's more interaction between characters so that the player can really get a feel for how they feel and what they believe in. I think FFXIII did a pretty good job with that.

On the other hand, it is also refreshing to play against a villain that is just downright evil and out to get everyone. Straightforward? Sure. But there's still something addicting in that...

I don't think I'd enjoy playing as a villain:
1) You'd be alone in your party. Lonely party.
2) A lot of the time villains just sit around and wait, or are involved in a big scheme that has been a long time in the making.

--------------------

Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

I was playing a american rpg (fallout 3)

I think it has some really good points and some not so good points:

There was only 1 ending.

I liked How in dragon age origins you affect a person by how you respond to them or how you treat others.

It is not directly good or evil rather than what you do affects the people in your group.

And the thing about these multi text choices is that they allow you to create your character instead of the character being made for you as a default by the game designers.

This is great as it gives alot of choices to be good or evil.



This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 10th April 2010 14:55

--------------------

We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Final Fantasy villains are based around a formula, which was summed up in the OP. Simple as that.






Also, why has nobody mentioned Seymour? Y'know, Seymour Guado, the guy who single-handedly committed genocide against the Ronso?

--------------------

"When we think there's no hope left, we keep looking until we find some!" - Claire Farron

Seymour is actually interesting.

There is something disturbing about him.

This is definately a good thing because you don't want the players to like the villain too much.



--------------------

We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

I think you're on to something. I didn't like Seymour, but I did sympathize with him. I can't speak from personal experience, but I be that was the general reaction to Sephiroth. (I didn't sympathize with Sephiroth, primarily because he didn't have his facts straight.) So... the key to making a good villain is to make the audience sympathize with him, but not like him.








I think.

--------------------

"When we think there's no hope left, we keep looking until we find some!" - Claire Farron

Quote (Smash Genesis @ 2nd May 2010 20:40)

I think you're on to something. I didn't like Seymour, but I did sympathize with him. I can't speak from personal experience, but I be that was the general reaction to Sephiroth. (I didn't sympathize with Sephiroth, primarily because he didn't have his facts straight.) So... the key to making a good villain is to make the audience sympathize with him, but not like him.








I think.

The thing about good villains:

There must be something of reason to hate the character.


No!! inherently evil is not a great aspect but kefka is not inherently evil.

The thing about kefka is that he went bad and he has reasonings behind it.

There is madness in kefkas story and part of a character is charasteristics.

Characters and virtues are things that define a character.

A person can be selfish narcissist violent.

These things are characters of a psychopath.

There are several levels too in psychopathy:

narcissism which is the first level
sociopath:Only thinks of himself and thinks nothing of hurting others to accomplish his goals.

Psychopaths:Some are not violent but they work in big business companies and hurt their clients and workers below them.

The thing about psychopaths is that you cannot tell who they are.

They are manipulative and know how to play along and fit in groups.

All sociopaths and psychopaths are narcissists and narcissists are also sociopaths and narcissists as well.

But not all narcissists are psychopaths and sociopaths.

In gaming,it is important to define a characters objective and who they are and why they do things,otherwise there is no way for the plot to fit in rpgs.

I think what really goes against sephiroth in ff7,is the fact that he is not defined all that well.

Neither is zeromus actually,because he doesn't really have much dialogue and not much to really base on.

X death though is a decent villain by rpg standards and it works.



--------------------

We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Exdeath is a complete jackass, and so very purely evil, that it's extremely satisfying to hate him. That's why he's effective, despite lacking the sort of depth of backstory that other villains have.

--------------------

Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Seymour is definately not a nice guy at all.

Something creepy about him.

And yeah x death can be mean sometimes



--------------------

We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Seymour's alright, but he's more of an annoyance than anything else. You beat the sh*t outta him four times, he doesn't really know what he wants, and he accomplishes nothing through the game. He didn't even kill all the Ronso, he was just bragging. Well, in his defense, his plan *sorta* made sense. Kill everyone, because they'll just become unsent and therefore won't age or feel pain. On the other hand, COME ON! They'll turn into fiends, most if not all of them!

And Exdeath is awesome. Bwa ha ha! I'm a tree!

And if you haven't noticed yet, I find Kuja the. Best. Villain. Ever. Closely followed by Coyote Stark (plain cool factor) and Dr. Robotnik (he has the balls to fight his nemesis in the end of every stage. Come on!).

This post has been edited by Toransu Kuja on 12th May 2010 23:54

--------------------

Snooping as usual, I see?

Quote (Toransu Kuja @ 12th May 2010 23:49)

Seymour's alright, but he's more of an annoyance than anything else. You beat the sh*t outta him four times, he doesn't really know what he wants, and he accomplishes nothing through the game. He didn't even kill all the Ronso, he was just bragging. Well, in his defense, his plan *sorta* made sense. Kill everyone, because they'll just become unsent and therefore won't age or feel pain. On the other hand, COME ON! They'll turn into fiends, most if not all of them!

And Exdeath is awesome. Bwa ha ha! I'm a tree!

And if you haven't noticed yet, I find Kuja the. Best. Villain. Ever. Closely followed by Coyote Stark (plain cool factor) and Dr. Robotnik (he has the balls to fight his nemesis in the end of every stage. Come on!).

I'm a beatrix fan LOL

Not obvious though

She is more serious and hardcore cool and less comic.

Steiner is too funny to take serious and be considered cool.

And he is incompetent.

Seriously,i don't know how steiner became a captain.



--------------------

We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

He's a pretty good fighter. Yes, he's goofy, but so was Gilgamesh - and his skill decimated an entire army (at least that's what's in his description).

And he wasn't THAT incompetent. Remember him, back-to-back with Beatrix, fighting the Mistodons? He was loyal and knew his duty - even if he was goofy, he had faith in his Queen, and would die for her.

But Beatrix is even more badass.


--------------------

Snooping as usual, I see?

Well,he got his butt handed to him by:marco a thief named zidane and vivi early in the game.

He was outsmarted by them several times,and he couldn't even tell that the princess wanted to escape.

You would think that a captain of the pluto knights would be at least pretty smart.

--------------------

We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 23rd May 2010 13:50)

You would think that a captain of the pluto knights would be at least pretty smart.

The Pluto Knights are silly, so it makes sense that the captain isn't all that bright.

Beatrix is badass, I couldn't agree more TK. I'm a lover of her and everything she does. She gets away with so much, notably the killing of a stupid amount of Burmecians and Cleyrans. She just seems to go around looking for a fight, and has a fearsome reputation, like Robert De Niro in Stardust. In Burmecia when she's with the Queen I really like how the soldiers challenge her, then get some convincing second thoughts when they find out who she is. Reasonings? I'd say hers are that she's been at the top for so long she's lost a lot of her compassion and restraint which has been replaced by pure loyalty and bloodlust. She wants a challenge and wants to maintain her status in the eyes of the Queen, and the other top fighters like her. It's a shame that there isn't a secret battle where we can play as Freya against her in a 1v1, or a non-playable battle where she fights Sir Fratley 'Iron-Tail'. That would be a fight to remember.

--------------------

Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Indeed it would. From what we know, Fratley is pretty strong himself, almost a legend, and if I remember correctly, he wanted to test himself by fighting Beatrix?

But we're moving from the core of the issue. Beatrix is not a villain. She's just following orders, plain and simple. Like my other favorite bad guy (Megaman Juno).

--------------------

Snooping as usual, I see?

Quote (Toransu Kuja @ 23rd May 2010 22:51)

But we're moving from the core of the issue. Beatrix is not a villain. She's just following orders, plain and simple. Like my other favorite bad guy (Megaman Juno).

I'd say she's as much a villain as Golbez in the sense that we meet her as the enemy on a few separate occasions, either involving a fight or not, then finally she changes sides. She appears to be a major villain along the same lines as the Queen and Kuja, but that's just a misconception at that point. Sure she's following orders, but like I said in another topic, she doesn't have any regret for all the murdering she's done, she only wishes she'd been fighting for the Princess not the Queen.

I'm only saying that to keep Beatrix chat on-topic.

--------------------

Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.