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Er, technically, the caption right under Cloud and Tifa sitting together reads, "Cloud, who returned to himself thanks to Tifa, confirms his unspoken thoughts/feelings with her before the final fight with Sephiroth."

Since it's right above a picture of Squall and Rinoa hugging, it hints at a Cloud x Tifa pairing, BUT at the bottom there's a box talking about the different forms of love in the FF series, e.g. Galuf and Kururu (sp?) in FFV. So, no, I don't think that settles the debate.

Mwahahaha.

Quote (ElPanachino @ 28th January 2010 05:35)

I never said anything about sex. Get your mind out of the gutter. 

Dragon_Fire, thanks for the support on my points.

To answer your question though, I think people obsess over it because romance, subplot or not, is one of the many hooks of a story in general. Some people might obsess over the psychological aspects of the plot, others might just like the action and magic, and of course there's those who love a good romance.

As with any good story, people often attach themselves to the characters. I, for one, have trouble getting into a game if I don't like the characters. Some people really like Aeris, so they feel that their favorite character should get the guy she's after (or that she would have had she not died). Others really like Tifa, so they go the other way on the issue (unless they hate Cloud and don't want them to be together).

A thought occurred to me as I was writing this. Isn't it a good thing that over a decade after this game came out, people are still analyzing it like this? Just think, it's in some ways a literature of our times. Half a century from now, there might be students writing reports on the love triangle in FF7 for an English class. I think that would be fantastic. then again, maybe I'm just a dork.

I never meant you had.

It was directed towards the entire scan and translation. Most people who have read the misunderstandings that has happened from the forum this news comes from, say it confirms something it doesn't.

I didn't mean it like you said it.

Quote

Er, technically, the caption right under Cloud and Tifa sitting together reads, "Cloud, who returned to himself thanks to Tifa, confirms his unspoken thoughts/feelings with her before the final fight with Sephiroth."

Since it's right above a picture of Squall and Rinoa hugging, it hints at a Cloud x Tifa pairing, BUT at the bottom there's a box talking about the different forms of love in the FF series, e.g. Galuf and Kururu (sp?) in FFV. So, no, I don't think that settles the debate.

Mwahahaha.

Did you translate that?

Thanks for posting that, it's always good to have people post different translations.

This post has been edited by MagitekElite on 29th January 2010 01:54

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A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

From MY perspective...

Cloud used to have a crush on Tifa, that eventualy became a friendship for Cloud and a struggle for Tifa. After Cloud left Nibelheim, Tifa herself told Cloud that she used to read the news everyday hoping she could read an article with Cloud in it, thus revealing to the gamer that Tifa was worried and interested on how Cloud was doing, something that most people do when they care about someone. I believed that as time went by Tifa's feelings towards Cloud grew each day that went by until eventualy she misses Cloud so much that before she even realizes she had fallen in love.

Cloud, never forgeting about his childhood friend, went on to suffer the tragedy of his life and in the process his personality is altered thus changing his ways and you could say his preferences, but I don't believe that is what causes him to loose interest in Tifa. The "Zackness" within Cloud drove him to develop a relationship with Aerith that had love written all over it. The only reason Cloud and Aerith want it to "meet each other" was because of Zack. As the Zack in Cloud fell for Aerith, Cloud's love for Tifa was reduced to childhood friendship, while Tifa is left hanging.

The way I look at it, Cloud has not fallen in love completely with neither female. The love for Aerith wasn't real while the love for Tifa was locked away for Tifa to unlock. Seeing how Cloud seems to keep his emotions to himself and how tragedy seems to always hit those around him, is going to be difficult for Cloud and Tifa to express what they feel or might have felt for each other at any given point. In the end it should not surprise us that they don't end up together and one of them dies. What should surprise us is if they end up together in this tragic history of The Planet.

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PS3 tag: TipoDLuffy

"...quite possibly the greatest game ever made"

I'm not really into romance at all, however, I think it's pertinent to question the validity of the source material before calling a debate closed: Is it this recent confirmation could be an addition to the massive retconning they've been doing for what has been a closed book for ages? What's the context of the situation at hand? Is this any more significant than evidence to the contrary in the other sources like Kingdom Hearts or Final Fantasy Tactics, where Aeris seems to be Cloud's driving motivation? What about Cait Sith's fortune telling?

I'm not saying that Aeris is definitively the only option, as Cloud seems to've had a crush on Tifa since childhood which easily seemed to resurface during several plot critical points in the game. In fact at the risk of sounding hypocritical, I'd say it'd be rather presumptuous to give anything other than a neutral answer, when objectively weighing the in-game events. He just seems so internally confused, dense and contemplative all throughout the whole scenario. Well, at least up until the point where he's no longer given the choice but that doesn't really settle the question of who he'd have ended up preferring if he still actually had that choice to make.

I personally think the game's designers left it ambiguous on purpose, so that the player could decide for themselves whom they'd personally prefer. Why else would they go through all of the bother of implementing a relationship point system that could have an effect upon the dialogs and certain cutscenes otherwise? It just makes no sense whatsoever.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Also, so long as it has been brought up, what's so creepy about pining away for a lost loved one? I find it's a rather common element in romances where the couple shares a deeper bond. Just because somebody's dead, doesn't mean you can just turn your emotions for them off like a light switch after all. That'd be rather cold and heartless really. Besides, it's not like he's thinking of actually snoggin' the corpse or anythin', which indeed would be rather gross...

This post has been edited by Tonepoet on 4th February 2010 07:54

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Role reversal at its finest.

Quote (Tonepoet @ 4th February 2010 03:37)

Is this any more significant than evidence to the contrary in the other sources like Kingdom Hearts or Final Fantasy Tactics, where Aeris seems to be Cloud's driving motivation?

Final Fantasy Tactics and Kingdom Hearts are not part of the FF7 canon.

If you took anything in Kingdom Hearts as cannon for other series you'd have to take EVERYTHING in it. My distaste for KH notwithstanding, there are too many inconsistencies in the KH world with its source worlds for it to be considered anything other than its own canon.

Final Fantasy Tactics is part of the Ivalice canon and the whole Cloud thing was just something they threw in there to cross-advertise since these came out around the same time.



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Wha? Thanks to me?

They might not be part of the official Final Fantasy VII canon but they're still indicative of the character of the character and does come directly from Square themselves. For these reasons I feel it may still be relevant to the discussion because we're mostly discussing Cloud's emotions, not a specific continuity of events. Another point to consider is that Kingdom Hearts and FFT have a lot more notoriety than a simple one page photo montage, so even if this was somehow meant to be an official response, it may not necessarily be anymore definitive.

One should also consider that with all of the errors in official strategy guides and the like, if the source is even credible, who wrote the caption and why. The article seems to be geared towards providing background information for Dissida, so the information therein may be Dissida specific, which would mean it doesn't fit within the official FF VII canon either.

Even if all of the information is from a good enough source, is it really meant to be definitive answer or is it just left up to subjective interpretation? Additionally, reputation also comes into account: Has anybody considered that it'd make Cloud look like a cad to be flip-flopping amongst his two main love interests in the article, when everybody else covered is rather decisively monogamous? This is something that may strike newcomers to the franchise as irksome and surely that's something which is clearly undesirable in a more serious piece such as this. For the United Works of Final Fantasy, this sort of scandal could come off just as badly as the Clinton Years

When all of this is put into consideration, this may all be rather suggestive evidence but it's hardly a credible enough source to be a game ender. A rather interesting piece of the puzzle perhaps, but by no means the solution absolute. There's too much iffiness surrounding it, too many avenues left open and so many other interpretations left to be seen. Sherlock Holmes would be rather disappointed if the case was called closed in this fashion.

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Role reversal at its finest.

Hi, guys. Remember me? It's been a while. Most of you probably don't know me, as I took a break from the FF fandom for more than four years until this past September.

I'm the one who translated this article. As there's some inaccurate info being mentioned here, I'd like to clear some things up.

First, scans of the page in question -- pg. 394 of the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario guide:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squ...Seed/ltdend.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squ...ed/ltdover2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squ...ed/ltdover3.jpg

Quote (MagitekElite)

It makes no sense because you would not translate "合う" as "to match" in that sentence.

You would, actually. Here's the Japanese sentence:
ティファのおかげで自分を取り戻したクラウドはセフィロスとの最後の戦いを前に言葉では伝えられない想いを彼女と確かめ合う。

If you break that sentence down, you get this:
ティファ=Tifa
の=”of”
おかげで=”thanks to”
自分=”oneself”; “himself” for this sentence
を=particle identifying recipient of an action
取り=”to take” or “to receive”
戻した=past tense of “return”; with the previous, it means “regain”
クラウド=Cloud
は=particle identifying main subject; Cloud, in this case
セフィロス=Sephiroth
と=”with”
最後=”last” or “final”
の=still means “of”
戦い=”battle”
を=still the particle identifying recipient of an action
前に=”before”
言葉=”words”
では=”in”
伝えられない=”not transmitted” or “not conveyed”
想い=”feelings”
を=you should know this one by now
彼女=”she” or “her”
と=”with”
確とかめ=”confirmation”
合う=”to match” or “to agree with”

Thus: “Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.”

If one wanted, they could render 言葉では伝えられない as something like “without conveying in words” or “while at a loss for words,” but they’re still arriving at the same conclusion: Cloud and Tifa confirmed that their feelings for one another match, and did so without using words.

Also, let me clarify further that the context of the page is the romantic couples of Final Fantasy. This is the heading of the page:

"For the One I Love
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two's value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come."

Note especially that the Japanese word for "love" here is "renai" (恋愛), which refers specifically to romantic love.

I'll include the entirety of the Japanese text at the end of this post, as well as my translation of it.

Quote (MagitekElite)

The people who have translated this seem to think that Aerith never loved Cloud and they seem to think that because Tifa/Cloud's date was shown (as well as Aerith's) that Tifa's is canon and they are giving the part they misunderstood a different meaning.

The person (singular; i.e. me) who translated it does not believe any such thing. As I've explained to you on other forums than these, MagitekElite, and as is clear in the article I've written about the Love Triangle Debate for my FFVII Plot Analysis FAQ.

Furthermore, while I would venture to argue that Tifa's date is more likely to be canon than any of the others (it is, after all, the only one that fits the name, "Words Drowned by Fireworks"), I also think it's wholly irrelevant to the matter being discussed here, as the Ultimania page being discussed dismisses the date sequence as irrelevant.

Quote (MagitekElite)

I'm not calling them out on it either, its just I know who has translated this and they did it all wrong.

You say this over and over, yet never explain why. You even admit that you don't know the Japanese language enough to "explain" why it's wrong.

Quote (MagitekElite)

They never had sex though. 

Whatever they did was physical:
-Cloud couldn't find the words to say how he was feeling.
-Tifa said words aren't the only way to show people how you feel.
-Pan to the sky and fade out. Fade in, they're cuddled together.
-This FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania page says they confirmed their feelings to match without using words.
-Tifa's profile in the FFVII Ultimania Omega (pg. 27) describes their feelings as "feelings of desire for one another":
ティファのクラウドに対する好感度が高い場合、飛空艇に残ったふたりは、互いを求める気持ちを確かめ合う
-Kazushige Nojima, FFVII's primary writer, has described Tifa's line about not using words to show how one feels as "risqué" (きわどい in Japanese)

This, of course, refers to the high affection version of the Highwind scene -- which is the only one included in SE's FFVII International Memorial Album script of the game (pp. 241-242), one of only four so-called "Impressive Scenes" to have their scripts featured at the beginning of the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania's section on FFVII (pg. 199), and the version of the Highwind scene described in the same book's summary of the game's story (pg. 232): そして、ふたりきりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で互いの想いを打ち明け合う ( "And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match").

There's really no way around this one.

Whatever happened was physical. Was it sex? Probably. Does it matter? Not especially.

The important parts of all this are that their feelings are said to be feelings of desire for one another, described in the context of "renai" (romantic love), and it's said that they confirmed their feelings to match.

We know how Tifa feels about Cloud. If their feelings match, then he feels romantic love toward her as well.

Quote (Del S)

Alternative translations will paint different pictures, both sides will decry the others as falsifying their translations ...

You are most certainly correct. In the past couple of weeks, I've been called a liar more times than I care to be over a fictional pairing.

That's why I'm here to set the record straight and provide the Japanese text for those who can identify its meaning themselves -- and advise anyone who can't but still cares to check out Babelfish, Google's translator, or popjisyo.com (especially the latter) to make up their own mind.

I have nothing to hide. Everyone who's accused me of falsying this translation, however, has failed to provide an explanation as to why it's wrong. Meanwhile, I break down the sentence word by word and show why it isn't.

Typically, this results in those accusing me of making things up never acknowledging the point.

Quote (somera)

Since it's right above a picture of Squall and Rinoa hugging, it hints at a Cloud x Tifa pairing, BUT at the bottom there's a box talking about the different forms of love in the FF series, e.g. Galuf and Kururu (sp?) in FFV. So, no, I don't think that settles the debate.

Notice that the box at the bottom specifically says that the relationships discussed there are different from those in the main body of the page -- "恋愛以外の「愛」に関する場面" ("Scenes involving 'love' other than romantic love").

In other words, the relationships discussed elsewhere are about romantic love. This includes the Cloud and Tifa entry.


With all that addressed, here's the Japanese text of the whole page, followed by my translation of it. Note that all of the scenes in question for the couples of other games feature them in their moments of realization/declaration.

Also, notice that the date sequence for FFVII -- which does depict the Cloud and Aerith date -- also dismisses the scene as irrelevant by noting that who Cloud goes on the date with is determined by the player; something it does not do for the scene with Cloud and Tifa.

Without further ado:

Quote

『愛する人のために』
長い旅を通じて築かれる、主人公たちの恋愛感情。ときにはふたりが引き裂かれることもあるが、お互いを大事に想っていればどんな難局でも乗り越えていけるという気持ちは、彼らに大きな力を与えてくれる。

「III」真面目な兵士と素直な姫
サス―ン城の兵士と姫という身分ちがいの恋に、イングスは自分の気持ちを押し殺そうとするが、サラは彼への想いを隠そうとしない。

「IV」ふたりだけの世界
捕らわれていたロ―ザを救い出したとき、セシルは自分の本心を打ち明ける。再会したふたりは、人目も気にせず強く抱き合った。

「VI」すれちがいの果てに
帝国の将軍と反帝国組織の―員　--　お互いの立場ゆえにすれちがっていたセリスとロックは、長い期間を経てようやく想いを通わせた。

「VII」秘密のデ―ト
ゴ―ルドソ―サ―で仲間のひとりから誘いを受けりクラウド。誰が誘いにやってくるかは、それまでのクラウドの行動しだい。

「VII」最終決戦前夜に
ティファのおかげで自分を取り戻したクラウドはセフィロスとの最後の戦いを前に言葉では伝えられない想いを彼女と確かめ合う。

「VIII」魔女リノアの騎士
魔女として封印される直前のリノアを、無心で奪還するスコ―ル。「魔女でもいいさ」
という彼の言葉は、リノアの心に安らぎを与えた。

「IX」守るべき者のため
ひょんなことから、スタイナ―にとってベアトリクスはかけがえのない女性となった。祖国と彼女を守るため、スタイナ―は剣を振るう。

「IX」生命のしらべに導かれ
イ―ファの樹で仲間の前から姿を消したジタン。彼は「いつか帰るところ」へ帰るために生きのび、愛いい人の待つ場所にもどってきた。

「X」マカラニ―アの泉で
ずっと信じていた寺院に裏切られユウナは心のよりどころを矢った。ティ―ダは、そんな彼女を支えていくことを決意する。

番外編
恋愛以外の「愛」に関する場面
「FF」シリ―ズでは男女間の恋愛だけでなく、さまざまな形の「愛」が描かれている。「FFV」におけるガラフとクルルをはじめとした家族愛や、「FFVI」のエドガ―とマッシュのような兄弟愛、「FFIX」のエ―コとモグのような種族を越えた情愛なだがその一例だ。また、「FFVI」においてティナが「愛」という感情を知ることで戦う力を取りもどすシ―ンは、「愛」そのものを語るうえで、はずせない場面のひとつだろう。

[Screenshot caption with Terra and the children of Mobliz]
一度は戦う力を矢ったティナは、「愛する者のために戦う」ということを知って力を取りもどし、ふたりび戦いに身を投じる。

Quote

FOR THE ONE I LOVE
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come.

III – The diligent soldier and the meek princess
The love between the soldier and princess of Sasune Castle was divided by social status; Ingus tried to supress his feelings, but Sara would not hide hers.

IV – World just for the two of us
When rescuing Rosa, Cecil frankly declares his true feelings. The two reunited, they tightly embrace for all eyes to see.

VI – Result of the chance encounter
The imperial general and the anti-empire organization member — Celes and Locke’s relation to one another is like ships passing in the night; it’s a long period before they get to communicate their feelings completely.

VII – Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.

VII – The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.

VIII – Witch Rinoa’s knight
Just before she can be sealed due to being a witch, Squall retakes Rinoa. “I don’t care that you’re a witch” are his words to her, putting her mind at ease.

IX – For the one I must protect
Beatrix becomes the woman to whom Steiner will let no harm befall. For his homeland’s protection and for hers, Steiner brandishes his sword.

IX – Guidance on an investigation of life
Zidane left the company of his companions in front of the Iifa Tree. He survived for the sake of going back to “the place I’ll return to someday,” where the one he loves was waiting for him.

X – Macalania Spring
Yuna is betrayed by the temples she had completely believed in and had made the foundation of her life. Tidus decides to comfort her in this way.

Extra Thread
Scenes involving “love” other than romantic love
In the “FF” series, there’s not just the romantic love between men and women; there are various forms of love depicted. In “FFV,” there’s familial love between Galuf and Krile, as well as the brotherly love between Edgar and Sabin depicted in “FFVI”; and in “FFIX,” there’s an instance of love between Eiko and Mog that goes beyond race. Also, in “FFVI,” there’s the scene where Terra recovers her ability to fight and comes to understand the emotion called “love”; when talking about “love,” this is a scene that shouldn’t be left out.

[Screenshot caption with Terra and the children of Mobliz]
During the event where Terra recovers her ability to fight, she regains her power and says “I’ll fight to protect the people I love”; she then throws herself back into battle.

So, go through all of that, guys, and make up your own minds. I'm not asking you to believe me simply because I said so.

But I am asking you not to believe someone who says I'm lying when their only justification is that they said so. Thanks for listening.

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

Well, I will say that there's no chance that I'll ever understand enough to question you or confirm you, SoS, but I do appreciate you coming back here to share the extended information, and I hope you stick around!

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Quote (Squall of SeeD @ 5th February 2010 18:40)

Wall of (awesome) text.

This post is win. Anyone who still contests the legitimacy of the translation ....well, there shouldn't be anyone. If there is, you should hang your head in shame.

Quote (footbigmike @ 5th February 2010 13:05)

Quote (Squall of SeeD @ 5th February 2010 18:40)

Wall of (awesome) text.

This post is win. Anyone who still contests the legitimacy of the translation ....well, there shouldn't be anyone. If there is, you should hang your head in shame.

I'm with FBM. I read the article to which I linked in the newspost in great detail, but I've avoided challenging MagitekElite or anyone else in this thread because my knowledge of the Japanese language is zilch. Thanks for clearing everything up, dood.

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this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

Quote (Rangers51)

Well, I will say that there's no chance that I'll ever understand enough to question you or confirm you, SoS, but I do appreciate you coming back here to share the extended information, and I hope you stick around!

Thanks, R51! I believe I shall be sticking around, actually. I appreciate the warm welcome back.

Quote (footbigmike)

This post is win. Anyone who still contests the legitimacy of the translation ....well, there shouldn't be anyone. If there is, you should hang your head in shame.

Quote (laszlow)

I'm with FBM. I read the article to which I linked in the newspost in great detail, but I've avoided challenging MagitekElite or anyone else in this thread because my knowledge of the Japanese language is zilch. Thanks for clearing everything up, dood.

Thanks to you guys, as well. I really appreciate you being receptive to me clearing things up.

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 5th February 2010 19:56

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

Since that one caption seems to be a focal point of the conversation, even translated as well translated as it is, as a statement it's still left up to interpretation. The only thing it truly affirms by itself, is that whatever happened, it wasn't verbal. This means it very well could've been describing an empathic exchange as opposed to a physical one.

In fact I'd say this is very likely, when considering the entire latter half of the game is spent culminating up to this final battle with Sephiroth. Not only is he a direct threat to the safety of the entire world and standing in the way of the planet's healing process but with their closely shared backgrounds, one of the most plot vital moments in the game was a great cause of their shared misfortunes. His death would bring a lot of closure to their lives to say the least but of course, to anybody who'd played the game up until this point, this should all go without saying. Right?

Now was the moment a romantic one? Perhaps, I wouldn't find it very surprising. I find it very interesting that the game's writer would describe a statement made during that point in time as risque and the article is about couples after-all. Still, as the spoiler club has pointed out, some rather vital changes in circumstance have taken the love triangle out of play and since that point in time, there has been a lot of emotional bonding between the two. So even if Cloud and Tifa are the official couple by that point in time, it doesn't necessarily have a cleanly closing effect on the circumstances surrounding the love triangle.

Another thing to take into consideration which I've already mentioned once before, is that in virtually all media where they make a joint appearance, Aeris is a rather emotionally driving source for Cloud. Whenever she's being thought about, it urges him onward to fight. I hear this is even the case in Advent Children, which is FF VII's direct sequel, although I haven't really watched that myself to be certain. (I have the DVD, although I'm not watching it until I finally beat Safer Sephiroth and watch the ending sequence, which might be never since my original save file was erased.)

I'm fairly sure there's lots and lots of other stuff showing that Cloud has a strong emotional bond with both girls and virtually every male/female interaction is chock-full of things that could be perceived as subtext, especially between lead roles such as those involved in the Cloud/Tifa/Aeris love triangle. However I'm not a diehard enough Cloud/Anybody enthusiast to go point for point with that in such a dull matter, so that's pretty much all I have to say about reestablishing the plausible deniability to the situation. Still, those are the sorts of things which will probably keep this debate open to discussion forever, as the fans who do care will twiddle twaddle about varying points of evidence virtually nonstop, favoring the bits 'n pieces that support their favored coupling. That's just pretty much how this sorta thing works, more or less.

P.S: What about Yuffie? I'm really rather surprised she hasn't been mentioned yet. XD

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Role reversal at its finest.

Quote

Er, technically, the caption right under Cloud and Tifa sitting together reads, "Cloud, who returned to himself thanks to Tifa, confirms his unspoken thoughts/feelings with her before the final fight with Sephiroth."

Since it's right above a picture of Squall and Rinoa hugging, it hints at a Cloud x Tifa pairing, BUT at the bottom there's a box talking about the different forms of love in the FF series, e.g. Galuf and Kururu (sp?) in FFV. So, no, I don't think that settles the debate.

Mwahahaha.

No dude that ENTIRE section you're looking at is "For the One I love" and "renai" is used which means it's romantic love. The box is talking about other loves in FF. IT's saying "These were other kinds of loves and different from the renai we just talked about." You have to look at the full page and not just one little quote.

You honestly think they're going to throw every single majorly romantic moment in FF history in there and put CxT right in the middle for no reason? Come on...

Quote

Now was the moment a romantic one?

Yes, "For The One I love" confirms this.

This post has been edited by Quexinos on 9th March 2010 20:31

Sorry to bump this but I feel I should do this since the other side of the fence has been using this defense for a while now and I know some of these people and I guess it wouldn't be right for me to not point out their defense in response to the article being talked about.

Is the Love Triangle Over

I disagree heavily, I believe this page is just saying, "This is how you get to the romantic scene" and it doesn't even mention the low affection... but you never know what others might think :monster: