Track this topic | Email this topic | Print this topic

For years, Final Fantasy VII fans have come to verbal blows over a simple question: was Cloud in love with Aeris or with Tifa? Well, nearly thirteen years after the release of Final Fantasy VII, this debate could be over, shot to hell by canon-fire.

Found in the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania Scenario, a picture of Cloud and Tifa sitting together under the Highwind with the following caption, translated by The Lifestream translator Tres Dias:

For the one I love
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two's value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come.

If that doesn't sound like Cloud x Tifa, I don't know what does. Although this will probably do little to quiet the legion of Aerith fans that insist that she was Cloud's one true love, this is probably the first truly conclusive item of evidence for either party.

Caves of Narshe is officially taking a neutral position on the validity of this information as well as the debate itself. Personally, I don't really have a horse in this proverbial race, but I have been annoyed and frustrated by Tifa vs. Aeri(th/s) debates for many years. This translated caption could very well be one localizer's opinion, but it's pretty compelling.

Source: The Lifestream, photo evidence

I'm pretty much of the opinion that Aerith was confirmed to be in love with Zack. This is reinforced through the fact that she only fell for Cloud (albeit briefly) because of his resemblance to Zack,the scene in Advent Children with the two of them together

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Zack and Aerith walking off together toward the end of the film

the ending of Crisis Core

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Zack tells Cloud to watch after her as he dies

and finally the evidence in the game itself, including the flashback to Nibelheim and young Cloud and Tifa, and the eventual rediscovery of Clouds actual memories.

But yeah, this may finally be the last nail in the coffin to end the 'debate' once and for all.

--------------------

This is a webcomic and gaming blog where I rant about nonsense. Enjoy.

I was a soldier, now I just play one in video games.

ive always thought that aeris was a little prick, and that the best thing she did in that game was

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

die

, so im happy about this. she didnt love cloud, she loved zack who

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

cloud thought he was for the better half of the game

aeris even asks cloud

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

if she could see the real him

if you go on a date with her, so i never got the aeries x cloud debate. the whole thing is really stupid

--------------------

Aujourdhui a commence avec toi.

I don't think its over yet, considering unbiased views, Cloi views and Clerith views, have all translated it differently.

We have many more years to come before its over, we might get what's canon after a VII remake or after KH3 comes out. It makes no sense because you would not translate "合う" as "to match" in that sentence.

We have many more heated arguments comin'.



--------------------

A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

Barret is his one true love.

--------------------

"The Lord Bob Bree is my shepherd,
I shall not want;
He makes me post in Scenario topics.
He leads me beside GameFOX;
He restores my karma.
He leads me in paths of moderation
for His name's sake."
-Nick of Five

That's plausible lol

But still, this kind of reaction is...silly. People have been translating the word wrong and taking it wrong. That's what annoys me

--------------------

A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

I am in favor of this resolution.

Another thing worth mentioning from AC is that

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Cloud confuses Aeris's presence with his mother's. That's just not something that happens if you're in love with someone.

--------------------

Wha? Thanks to me?

He does that cause Zack does it first. He's still got some Zack in him at that point.

--------------------

This is a webcomic and gaming blog where I rant about nonsense. Enjoy.

I was a soldier, now I just play one in video games.

Quote (Nytecrawla @ 26th January 2010 00:28)

He does that cause Zack does it first. He's still got some Zack in him at that point.

Really? I don't remember that. If it's in CC, it's been too long (and I never finished it).

In any case, canon still highly favors Tifa over Aeris.

This post has been edited by ElPanachino on 27th January 2010 04:27

--------------------

Wha? Thanks to me?

Yea, Cloud still has a lot of Zack's feelings in him.

I don't see canon pointed to either yet. They both have 50/50. But again, misunderstandings like this has cause ill dilemmas.

This post has been edited by MagitekElite on 26th January 2010 04:56

--------------------

A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

Okay, I have got the chance to play the game all the way through yet, (really planning on finally buying it this year, it's been much too long), but...

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

... since this is the most spoiled spoiler ever.....doesn't Aerith die?

So... isn't it just, well, process of elimination?

--------------------

Praise Be To Helix!

Yes. But why does this matter?

--------------------

A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 26th January 2010 07:02)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

... since this is the most spoiled spoiler ever.....doesn't Aerith die?

So... isn't it just, well, process of elimination?

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

With her death taken into the account, how was this ever a debate?
Longing for a dead person at the end of the story would make Cloud either an unlikeable creep or an emotional masochist.

This post has been edited by SilverMaduin on 26th January 2010 05:50

--------------------

"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 26th January 2010 00:49)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

With her death taken into the account, how was this ever a debate?
Longing for a dead person at the end of the story would make Cloud either an unlikeable creep or an emotional masochist.

Yeah, but isn't media of all stripes filled with emotional masochists? Why is it only a problem in this particular instance?

Quote (MagitekElite)

But still, this kind of reaction is...silly. People have been translating the word wrong and taking it wrong. That's what annoys me

Well, any Japanese you know is more than I care to know, personally, but I've always found it to be a bit presumptuous to call out someone else on localizing from Japanese. If there weren't a lot of ways to interpret Japanese into English, then there would never be a game with bad translation, would there?

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 26th January 2010 13:47

--------------------

"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Quote (Rangers51 @ 26th January 2010 15:46)

Yeah, but isn't media of all stripes filled with emotional masochists? Why is it only a problem in this particular instance?

I'm not saying it's a problem only in this instance. I think this is not a good way to write a protagonist.

Also, only now did I bother to read more than the original post an what BlitzSage wrote, so excuse me, but I'll be making inquiry (or be an ass, make your pick):

Quote (MagitekElite)

It makes no sense because you would not translate "合う" as "to match" in that sentence.
But still, this kind of reaction is...silly. People have been translating the word wrong and taking it wrong. That's what annoys me

Oh dear, there's a bad translation! Why are people allowing this!
Or not.
You say that the context is wrong for "to match with"? That implies you could probably translate the piece better, so why don't you? Enlighten us, please, because we're obviously being led astray by evil people who think nasty thoughts like "The protagonist should hook up with the hot girl who's alive".

Moderator Edit

Yeah, you made it to the "be an ass" level. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 26th January 2010 17:51

--------------------

"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Umm, okay, back to the spoilers....

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

What I meant was, that since she is dead, she can't carry on a relationship with Cloud. So his only option would be Tifa.

--------------------

Praise Be To Helix!

That doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't love her.

To be quite honest I don't think Cloud liked either of them, as evident from his complete indifference to their moves, and he had more important things on his mind like going into space and saving the world. He clearly isn't impressed with women who are all over him, and I can't agree more, that's such a turn-off. I'd be happy to accept this translation as it sounds like the kind of thing you'd write to someone if you wanted to keep them interested incase they're useful later, like if you're ill in a wheelchair and you need someone to take care of you. Especially because he hints a lot about being around eachother and not being separated. She wouldn't be much use then. In the context of the game I think this makes the most sense, which isn't saying much.

When I first played through the game I was young and didn't have much of an idea what was going on at all. I thought Tifa and Barret were a couple for about three playthroughs, and that Tifa was just a good friend to Cloud and a bit easy in her ways.

Cid and Shera, now there's a real relationship!

--------------------

Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote

That doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't love her.

Completely agree. If Cloud did love Aeris, I think that he A) would have had the entire first half of the game to develop that love and would not immediately stop loving her upon her death. He would have still felt love towards her and probably not have been to keen on hooking up with Tifa right away.

Quote

I don't see canon pointed to either yet.

I think that's what it all boils down to for me. Especially since Cloud didn't really appear to feel very strongly for either girl, or anyone else for that matter. I do see a 'love' triangle there: Cloud's childhood with Tifa is responsible for those emotions, with Zack's imprinted memories mixed with Cloud's own reactionary feelings/confusion towards Aeris causing his feelings towards her. But I don't get the feeling he really loved either of them. The love story (for lack of a better word) is definitely a sideshow for me.

--------------------

Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 26th January 2010 17:49)

Quote (Rangers51 @ 26th January 2010 15:46)

Oh dear, there's a bad translation! Why are people allowing this!
Or not.
You say that the context is wrong for "to match with"?    That implies you could probably translate the piece better, so why don't you? Enlighten us, please, because we're obviously being led astray by evil people who think nasty thoughts like "The protagonist should hook up with the hot girl who's alive".

Well, its kinda hard to explain. They have translated it and mixed up the way its used. They got the word right, I do believe...but, how should I say this?

They've added a meaning to it by well...hmm. Its quiet hard to explain.

The people who have translated this seem to think that Aerith never loved Cloud and they seem to think that because Tifa/Cloud's date was shown (as well as Aerith's) that Tifa's is canon and they are giving the part they misunderstood a different meaning.

I'm not calling them out on it either, its just I know who has translated this and they did it all wrong. They've given it a context that shouldn't have been there, ya know?


(Oh, by the way, I don't know the language that much. My sister does more than me and even a beginner knew they misunderstood the word I wasn't trying to anger any of those who believe in this, just saying. )

--------------------

A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

Quote (sweetdude @ 26th January 2010 18:54)

That doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't love her.

That may be true, but that doesn't mean there is a love triangle. He cannot be with Aerith, meaning that his only option is Tifa. Now, that could mean that he still loves her and can't be with anyone else. But nevertheless, there is not love triangle.

--------------------

Praise Be To Helix!

I don't get why Cloud, to the fans, has to love someone. Its been pretty clear he loves them both.

But even death can't stop love. He could (could) still love her and might not want to move on. Or, he could love them both and wouldn't find it fair to pick.

Or, Tifa doesn't like Cloud that way anymore and she turned him down

--------------------

A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

The things that happen in disc 1 with regards to Aeris and Tifa being with Cloud are up to the player and therefore we can't say either is really canonical.

What we do know is:

Cloud feels guilty over almost killing Aeris while having one of his episodes, and not being able to stop Sephiroth from killing her (this is why he obsesses abou ther death).

Cloud liked Tifa as a kid and hoped to impress her by going off and becoming a hero like Sephiroth.

Cloud and Tifa spent a night together waiting for their friends to sort out their thoughts.

This may not be irrefutable evidence for Tifa's side, but it does not make me think it's a 50/50.

I think the argument that cloud isn't in love with either of them is stronger than the argument that he is in love with Aeris.

--------------------

Wha? Thanks to me?

Tifa and Cloud spent a night together? I doubt that....it's been assumed, but it hasn't been proven.

Hugs can be given without words, a simple touch could have been given. Or maybe even them leaning on each other to discuss their past and try to heal.

Oh, and that's not why he "obsesses" over Aerith's death.

--------------------

A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

Play Dissidia and the OTP now becomes Cloud/Terra!

Course, in VII proper, the true love of Cloud's life is, listening to what a good percentage of the fanbase is saying, Sephrioth.

--------------------

"Though the hours take no notice of what fate might have in store, our love come what may, will never age a day! I'll wait forever more!"- "Aria de Mezzo Carattere" Final Fantasy VI

But Cloud and Terra are too alike -- they'd never last.
Although the couple is cute.

--------------------

A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

Quote (MagitekElite @ 27th January 2010 01:27)

Tifa and Cloud spent a night together? I doubt that....it's been assumed, but it hasn't been proven.

Hugs can be given without words, a simple touch could have been given. Or maybe even them leaning on each other to discuss their past and try to heal.

Oh, and that's not why he "obsesses" over Aerith's death.

Actually, they do spent a night together. Not in the intimate sense, though the moment in-game is made to certainly feel very intimate. Prior to the final assault on North Crater, when all members of your party disembark from the HIGHWIND in order to decide what they're fighting for and if they're willing to risk their lives in the final battle, Cloud and Tifa are left alone. Through the following dialogue, we're informed that they spent the night in each other's company.

And I have to disagree, I think that is predominantly exactly why Cloud feels guilt over Aeris' death. And in fact, this is strengthened in Advent Children when he continuously asks for her forgiveness. Perhaps there are some lingering attachments left over from what was inherited from Zack, but I never felt at all like Cloud was romantically interested with Aeris.

I don't see the need for their to be an official pairing at all, to be honest. I also believe it's just as probable that he never had any true romantic feelings for either woman, outside of his boyhood crush on Tifa. I never understood the mad desire to pick a "side", or why some people are so fanatic over who Cloud might have loved, if he in fact loved anyone at all. The romantic possibility was meant to be an undertone in a much larger narrative, not the central, defining plot line of Final Fantasy VII.

--------------------

Okay, but there was a goat!

Well, if you mean embraces or just a simple touch, then yes, that did occur.

They never had sex though.

--------------------

A Magitek Elite knight! :P

Bringing back what crashed. A FFVI community!

I never said anything about sex. Get your mind out of the gutter.

Dragon_Fire, thanks for the support on my points.

To answer your question though, I think people obsess over it because romance, subplot or not, is one of the many hooks of a story in general. Some people might obsess over the psychological aspects of the plot, others might just like the action and magic, and of course there's those who love a good romance.

As with any good story, people often attach themselves to the characters. I, for one, have trouble getting into a game if I don't like the characters. Some people really like Aeris, so they feel that their favorite character should get the guy she's after (or that she would have had she not died). Others really like Tifa, so they go the other way on the issue (unless they hate Cloud and don't want them to be together).

A thought occurred to me as I was writing this. Isn't it a good thing that over a decade after this game came out, people are still analyzing it like this? Just think, it's in some ways a literature of our times. Half a century from now, there might be students writing reports on the love triangle in FF7 for an English class. I think that would be fantastic. then again, maybe I'm just a dork.

This post has been edited by ElPanachino on 28th January 2010 05:36

--------------------

Wha? Thanks to me?

Actually in the actual article they did say they probably had sex. Imagine the offspring of cloud and tifa . A spiky haired emo bigass sword wielding chick with breasts the size of Canada. no just no

--------------------

Since I advertise CoN there I think it's only fair that I advertise The Wiki here.

Quote (R8.50 Mango @ 28th January 2010 13:05)

Actually in the actual article they did say they probably had sex. Imagine the offspring of cloud and tifa . A spiky haired emo bigass sword wielding chick with breasts the size of Canada. no just no

Fortunately for all of us, Genetics Do Not Work That Way. And on top of that...

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Events in Mideel, the massive Mako exposure likely suffered by Tifa as well as that suffered by Cloud, may have rendered one or both the coupling completely sterile so there might not be any kids anyway.

Still, the alternative is if anything statistically less likely to have borne fruit, so to speak...

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Aeris/Aerith is a hybrid of Cetra and Human, and thus without handwaving is basically like a mule. Pregnancy is theoretically possible, but rare. The alternative is that it's merely an ethnicity, which makes much more sense, but assuming Cetra and Human are a separate species, odds are the Flower Girl from the Slums has a plumbing disorder.

With regards to this discovery though, quite clearly saying the debate is over is just another debate. Alternative translations will paint different pictures, both sides will decry the others as falsifying their translations, and nothing will change except another front opens.

And let's not even get started on those who dismiss supplemental material like this with no exported versions to make their own canon: I technically do it myself but I acknowledge the existence of the real stuff I know of and will generally decry it as stupid or fine where it applies.

This post has been edited by Del S on 28th January 2010 18:43

--------------------

"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.