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Quote (Ruin's Fate @ 3rd July 2009 23:24)

Well looking strictly at FFVII, I'd say that Sephiroth is the one that took control, because he uses fragments of Jenova to delay Cloud and otherwise mess with him. But then Advent Children goes off on this mommy dearest BS that makes him look downright embarrassing, so I guess it's your call.

Now, please remember - the person encountered as Sephiroth in Clouds memories is the same killed in the final battle. He is a person who has taken it to himself to become the God of all the spirit energy that makes the world's Lifestream.

He is killed and is no more as a person, but remember the reunion. During his summoning his thoughts are put into his peers of Jenova infects. Cloud included... Jenova is a being of unparalleled magic, and had according to Advent Children a plan to gather planets, harvesting them (for energy?) - so yes what sephiroth sees as his plan, to gather all lifestream, could really be a part of Jenovas mission.

But Sephiroth does not arrive in person in Advent Children, he's dead. He appears through a disiple, and is still the disiple.

Remember that the foremost attribute of Sephiroth is manipulating deceptions and illusions - we see Sephiroth because he, or his disiple, or maybe the spirit of Jenova herself, wants us to.

Quote (ikkeheltvanlig @ 13th November 2009 13:56)

Quote (Ruin's Fate @ 3rd July 2009 23:24)

Well looking strictly at FFVII, I'd say that Sephiroth is the one that took control, because he uses fragments of Jenova to delay Cloud and otherwise mess with him. But then Advent Children goes off on this mommy dearest BS that makes him look downright embarrassing, so I guess it's your call.

Now, please remember - the person encountered as Sephiroth in Clouds memories is the same killed in the final battle. He is a person who has taken it to himself to become the God of all the spirit energy that makes the world's Lifestream.

He is killed and is no more as a person, but remember the reunion. During his summoning his thoughts are put into his peers of Jenova infects. Cloud included... Jenova is a being of unparalleled magic, and had according to Advent Children a plan to gather planets, harvesting them (for energy?) - so yes what sephiroth sees as his plan, to gather all lifestream, could really be a part of Jenovas mission.

But Sephiroth does not arrive in person in Advent Children, he's dead. He appears through a disiple, and is still the disiple.

Remember that the foremost attribute of Sephiroth is manipulating deceptions and illusions - we see Sephiroth because he, or his disiple, or maybe the spirit of Jenova herself, wants us to.

Technically by the time AC hits, Sephiroth's completely overwritten Jenova as the Dominate Entity of Jenova Cells. Jenova itself mentally has been out of the picture since before the story itself as we know it began. All that's left of Jenova is it's body and it's rage by FF7, and by AC it's gone entirely, and Sephiroth has Evolved to become the Jenova Cells themselves core personality.

Sephiroth is simply dillusional, and the Cetra's memories in the Life Stream revealed Jenova's purpose and he became screwed up. We forget that the Life Stream contains all memories of the world. Sephiroth was stuck in there what, a year tops? The immense amount of memories flowing into his head cracked him like the nut he is.

He used Deceptions and Illusions sure, but it's also not beyond imagination that he could have temporarily warped Kadaj's body since it was literally a copy of his own (again, above listed that sharing similar traits allow for easily psychic control over another). The only issue there is where did the Masamune come from? But this can be answered in his Psionic force was enough to cleave through buildings, or he could have, as with President Shinra, Summoned it to himself again (Teleportation can be done quickly and instantly with a skilled Psychic).

So, Sephiroth might be more manifested than I wanted to believe... Guess I wanted to believe he was dead because of my grudge to him. I remember FFVII as the first PSX-game, and the first RPG, i ever had - I learned most of my english from this game - to me, Sephiroth the One Winged Angel, still gives me the creeps in a fearful awe'ish way. Hm

I just want to chip in here and add that the official Ultimania confirms that Sephiroth always has been in control of Jenova.

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

Quote (Tryscal The Great @ 14th November 2009 21:00)

I just want to chip in here and add that the official Ultimania confirms that Sephiroth always has been in control of Jenova.

Just because you control a pet doesn't mean it can't temporarily go berserk and begin doing things on it's own though before you regain your control over it (akin to, as I said, the Jenova battles).

Regardless that's enough proof to basically wrap the Debate (and topic) up unless someone has a rebuttal (>o.o)>

ok am going to chip in to this slightly for some people who are confused. (it is for many still to this day )

lucrecia gave birth to sephiroth , then she gave sephiroth to the "Jenova Project" . Headed by Prof. Gast.

Jenova was a "calamity from the skies", and was a modified monster from the Nibelheim experiments. the Jenova "Cells" are injected into Sephiroth and his clones, (Cloud). which means that when injured part of them can grow back (like a starfish etc)

the Jenova reunion was about-- bringing all the clones together to meet sephiroth . one of them brought the black materia. Hojo was "getting off on this scientific manipulation" he loves to test theories etc.

Sephiroth was the one "speaking/controlling" to cloud and the clones to make them come to the north cave.

its also possible to suggest hojo was testing the spirit energy theory, that all the clones would dissolve into reviving/awaking seph.

sephiroth was lead to believe Jenova was his biological mother, with a deserted father.

all the "sephiroth siteings" are the clones the real one is awaiting in the cave.

Cloud was the blue soldier at nibelheim , with tifa seph and Zack.

the mako infusion and jenova cells in cloud messed his memory and being up. mako poisoning is what almost kills him but he finds himself through soul searching.

Quote (DeanTonberry @ 12th January 2010 02:27)

ok am going to chip in to this slightly for some people who are confused. (it is for many still to this day )

lucrecia gave birth to sephiroth , then she gave sephiroth to the "Jenova Project" . Headed by Prof. Gast.

Jenova was a "calamity from the skies", and was a modified monster from the Nibelheim experiments. the Jenova "Cells" are injected into Sephiroth and his clones, (Cloud). which means that when injured part of them can grow back (like a starfish etc)

the Jenova reunion was about-- bringing all the clones together to meet sephiroth . one of them brought the black materia. Hojo was "getting off on this scientific manipulation" he loves to test theories etc.

Sephiroth was the one "speaking/controlling" to cloud and the clones to make them come to the north cave.

its also possible to suggest hojo was testing the spirit energy theory, that all the clones would dissolve into reviving/awaking seph.

sephiroth was lead to believe Jenova was his biological mother, with a deserted father.

all the "sephiroth siteings" are the clones the real one is awaiting in the cave.

Cloud was the blue soldier at nibelheim , with tifa seph and Zack.

the mako infusion and jenova cells in cloud messed his memory and being up. mako poisoning is what almost kills him but he finds himself through soul searching.

If hojo was testing this.

Then he had an idea that the jenova cells would call for a reunion?

So your saying he really wanted to know if genetic manipulation was possible?


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

I always thought that the JENOVA/Sephiroth relation was analogous to Lavos/Queen Zeal, to be honest. In both cases there's an inscrutable, Lovecraftian alien lifeform who arrives on the planet and manipulates the people to further its own ends. Most likely, Gast found JENOVA only because JENOVA willed it, as is why Hojo took control and made supersoliders from its cells, to spreads its influence. Honestly, I kind of always felt that Sephiroth is only in the game during the flashback and at the very end, JENOVA took Sephiroth's form throughout the game because it knew that the form would cause fear in members of Shinra who remembered Sephiroth's massacre. And I always saw the final one on one battle as both Cloud freeing himself from Sephiroth, and Sephiroth freeing himself from JENOVA, in death. Of course, I only played the first game, so the newer spinoffs could alter this, but I dunno, FFVII was a standalone game anyway.

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"If art doesn't risk upsetting expectations and challenging its audience, it can only stagnate."

Quote (trismegistus @ 2nd February 2010 20:51)

I always thought that the JENOVA/Sephiroth relation was analogous to Lavos/Queen Zeal, to be honest. In both cases there's an inscrutable, Lovecraftian alien lifeform who arrives on the planet and manipulates the people to further its own ends. Most likely, Gast found JENOVA only because JENOVA willed it, as is why Hojo took control and made supersoliders from its cells, to spreads its influence. Honestly, I kind of always felt that Sephiroth is only in the game during the flashback and at the very end, JENOVA took Sephiroth's form throughout the game because it knew that the form would cause fear in members of Shinra who remembered Sephiroth's massacre. And I always saw the final one on one battle as both Cloud freeing himself from Sephiroth, and Sephiroth freeing himself from JENOVA, in death. Of course, I only played the first game, so the newer spinoffs could alter this, but I dunno, FFVII was a standalone game anyway.

Yes, but

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

the Cetra had defeated Jenova and sealed it behind a rock,so how could Jenova willingly accept to be found if defeated?

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Does anyone actually like Cait Sith?

Quote (trismegistus @ 2nd February 2010 16:51)

I always thought that the JENOVA/Sephiroth relation was analogous to Lavos/Queen Zeal, to be honest. In both cases there's an inscrutable, Lovecraftian alien lifeform who arrives on the planet and manipulates the people to further its own ends. Most likely, Gast found JENOVA only because JENOVA willed it, as is why Hojo took control and made supersoliders from its cells, to spreads its influence. Honestly, I kind of always felt that Sephiroth is only in the game during the flashback and at the very end, JENOVA took Sephiroth's form throughout the game because it knew that the form would cause fear in members of Shinra who remembered Sephiroth's massacre. And I always saw the final one on one battle as both Cloud freeing himself from Sephiroth, and Sephiroth freeing himself from JENOVA, in death. Of course, I only played the first game, so the newer spinoffs could alter this, but I dunno, FFVII was a standalone game anyway.

Sorry to revive this, but I have been busy.

As nice as this theory is, again, it contradicts the Ultimania produced by Square/Squeenix. It contradicts it through the fact that Jenova is braindead, hence it had no control over anyone. It's only a mass of rage and instinct. It cannot do anything really except react in instinctual ways versus it's natural enemies on the planet (The Cetra, and the humans): attack.

To manipulate people's minds/wills would still require a working mind itself, Which is wherein Jenova would be completely incapable. Magic doesn't require a working mind, as many sources of fantasy show us, sometimes it just requires pure Willpower. Of course, Jenova could extend it's will over others, but again, that wouldn't explain it becoming randomly active and attacking the Shinra HQ. Maybe Aeris' proximity roughly what, 1-5 floors away? Okay, maybe it we count the time in the prisons, but that would still be a fair distance away. Either way it doesn't explain fairly how Jenova got that active as to for some reason summon Sephiroth's sword and stab Presidork Shinra, rather than attack Aeris/th.

Sephiroth had more of a beef with Shinra than Aeris, he never met Aeris directly, no, he hated Shinra for their corruption and for soiling his 'mother' with her captivity, and went to extremes influenced by his overload of knowledge.

This post has been edited by Katoma on 3rd July 2010 19:53

i could be wrong but jenova was supposedly the one in control but actually the mind control them all were actually the combination of sepherioths mind and jenovas cells to control all of the test subjects if i have to think about it it seems a little wierd but down to the most blunt way jenova was the master mind beind it all from the begining

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[FONT=Impact][SIZE=14]BLAMO

you have been ninjad

question:

If cloud was so powerful and killed sephiroth before even doing the mako reactor thing,how come he never ascended in rank in soldier?

He obviously is stronger than zack and beat the best soldier in the world,doesn't that deserve merit?

Besides that,sephiroth had already betrayed shinra and they knew it and cloud killed sephiroth at the reactor where people are infused with mako.

You see it in a flashback where tifa's dad was killed and she wanted revenge on him and cloud rushed in and killed sephiroth.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Just a thought. Twisted as Shinra is, they probably realized that putting a catatonic, mentally ill, living-through-a-dead-man in a position of power was a bad idea.

Then again, Hojo is one of the top execs, and he fits at least one of those categories. But the fact is, Cloud left Shinra, didn't he? Not on purpose, necessarily, but he was completely out of his mind, to the point where despite his life's ambition of making it into SOLDIER we first find him blowing up 1/8 of a city controlled by Shinra. Probably not the type of soldier they were looking for.

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Squenix games completed:

FFIII
FFIV
FFVI
FFVII
FFIX
FFX
FF Tactics: Advance 2
Chrono Trigger
Dragon Quest 8
Dragon Quest 11
Super Mario RPG

But cloud was able to go after sephiroth.

Sure he was messed up,but he functioned enough on a certain level to find and hunt down sephiroth,surely he could be usefull as an assasin?

And surely they could program him as an assassin.

Moderator Edit

Watch the language. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 6th August 2010 23:40

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

I never got the feeling that they cared too much. Certainly Prez Shinra wasn't too happy to be stabbed in the back by a Sephy clone, but...Rufus never showed all that much interest in it. They wanted the Promised Land, yes? If Sephiroth got in the way of that perhaps they'd have done something, but I doubt they'd have thought of that old soldier Cloud Strife. They had (at least what they considered to be) superior fighters; the Turks, for instance. And, come to think of it, didn't they send Tseng to the Temple of the Ancients after something related? My memory is foggy, it's been a while, but I know they never hesitated to use the Turks.

Now, an interesting point: if Shinra was any kind of efficient, they WOULD have hunted down Cloud, either to use him or to dispose of him. But they weren't, and he was too much of a bother to go looking for; they'd lost their pride and joy SOLDIER Sephiroth, that blonde kid with him wasn't too important.

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Squenix games completed:

FFIII
FFIV
FFVI
FFVII
FFIX
FFX
FF Tactics: Advance 2
Chrono Trigger
Dragon Quest 8
Dragon Quest 11
Super Mario RPG

but tseng and the gang aren't that good,they get their butt kicked by a bunch of rookies.

Doesn't that say something that a bunch of combat rookies in avalanche are able to defeat a trained group of assassins?

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

I wouldn't call them rookies, but yes, no doubt avalanche (or at least the PCs from it) are stronger than the Turks. But here's the question: you think Heidegger will admit to it?

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Squenix games completed:

FFIII
FFIV
FFVI
FFVII
FFIX
FFX
FF Tactics: Advance 2
Chrono Trigger
Dragon Quest 8
Dragon Quest 11
Super Mario RPG

Also consider that Cloud wasn't powerful enough to defeat Sephiroth until the very end of the game. The Cloud you see at the beginning of FFVII is in no shape, physically or mentally, to take on Sephiroth. Cloud was certainly not stronger than Zack, and it's an ongoing debate just when Cloud surpassed Zack, if at all.

Even back in Nibelhiem, Cloud didn't beat Sephiroth in actual combat; it was a lucky fluke that took advantage of Sephiroth's two weaknesses; his arrogance and his mortality.

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

My understanding of the situation was as follows:
Jenova, as a 'person', died thousands of years ago, although her cells remain (in such a way that a virus can still exist/spread).
Jenova, as a virus, exists in the Jenova body that ShinRa found and hid, thinking it was the remains of a Cetra.
Shinra injected the cells, and thus the virus, into SOLDIERs, to make them super human fighters. Hojo expanded on this by injecting them into the unborn Sephiroth, to make a VERY SUPER SOLDIER (lol).
He then further expanded this idea with the Jenova Reunion Theory. Basically the cells of jenova would do anything possible to come together and rejoin. So he injected Cloud, the Clones, etc, thinking they would be compelled by the Jenova cells to return to Jenova.
Sephiroth (the sane SOLDIER) was defeated by Cloud (after a slight mental breakdown) at Nibelheim and his body (and the head of Jenova) entered the lifestream.
I believe that, at this point, Sephiroth died and all that remained was his body and the consciousness of the Jenova cells. He remained in the north crater, while the rest of the Jenova body reanimated at the ShinRa headquarters, taking Sephiroth's form. (Remember Aeris' mother said that Jenova could take the form of others to trick people) I believe Jenova's motivation for being like sephiroth was to create panic and to trick Cloud into following 'him' to the Reunion (it is here that the debate exists over whether Cloud was forced by the cells inside him to go or whether he chose to go for revenge)

In conclusion, the Sephiroth the party follow is actually Jenova, which uses parts of itself to delay the party (Jenova Birth, life ect).
It has the ability to influence Cloud due to him having the Jenova cells inside him (think Hive Mind like in Prototype for example) but its not the same as being psychic. The cells in Cloud want him to give the materia to Jenova/Seph so that the reunion etc would happen.
finally, when Sephiroth finally awakens i fully believe that this is still completely Jenova's will, the consciousness of the SOLDIER sephiroth was completely dead.

Whooh CoN