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Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 4th July 2009 00:12)

Um lets not forget that just because you suffer doesn't mean you should do the same to others.

Sometimes you can't choose that, especially if there are psychological problems instilled because of it. But once again, that's assuming that he actually did something to those kids. And as far as we know, he build a multi-million dollar mansion equipped with a theme park, and invited cancer-ridden children to have fun there and get their minds off of their illnesses.

But that ended because the public and media's perceptions of him changed and he was forced to give up his house.

And then he died a man in pain and in debt. I believe he was the one that suffered.

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Praise Be To Helix!

I had actually cried when I heard that so I posted my original reaction. Poor guy...

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Since I advertise CoN there I think it's only fair that I advertise The Wiki here.

Quote (BlitzSage @ 4th July 2009 19:39)

And then he died a man in pain and in debt. I believe he was the one that suffered.

Yes, he suffered quite a bit, what with his lifetime of fame, fortune, and mind-boggingly overindulgent luxury and all. You seem to be forgetting that his debt was entirely his fault. Did he really need plastic surgery every year or so? No, I think not. To lament his childhood and then ignore all of the psychological evidence of the effects such experiences have on people's behavior is blind ignorance. I'm sorry, but that's how it is. When you consider his childhood and the way he lived his life, I simply don't understand how you can possibly see him as some kind of pure, innocent saint.

And sweetdude, when someone is molested as a child and then grows up to be a child molester, that person is put in prison. We don't simply blame their father or whoever the hell abused them as a child. While we do try to help such people however we can, they are still held accountable for their actions. I'm not dismissing the consequences of a child's upbringing, but I feel it necessary to point out a few things. Firstly, that it has been proven that children are far more affected by their peers than by their parents (friends, siblings, classmates, etc.). Secondly, that basic morality is not relative. A decent, moral person knows the difference between right and wrong. And Michael Jackson, over the course of his life, displayed certain moral deficiencies.

You know, if he really cared about cancer patients, perhaps he could have used his ridiculous amounts of money to fund cancer research or children's hospitals rather than building an extravagent ranch, mansion, and theme park and having umpteen plastic surgeries. If he was a moral person with any decency, perhaps he wouldn't have rented a ridiculously luxurious mansion for $10,000 a month when he was basically broke and hundreds of millions of dollars in debt. And that was after being kicked out of Bahrain for lying his way into receiving money and hospitality from its royal family. It sounds like he was really suffering. Shame on his father and on society for making him act that way.

This post has been edited by Reod Dai on 6th July 2009 21:55

Quote (Reod Dai @ 6th July 2009 22:55)

And sweetdude, when someone is molested as a child and then grows up to be a child molester, that person is put in prison.  We don't simply blame their father or whoever the hell abused them as a child.  While we do try to help such people however we can, they are still held accountable for their actions.

It doesn't really feel like justice though does it? Social justice is a far more worthwhile cause than criminal justice. I do some work with witnesses in the courts here and, let me tell you, the effect a parent can have on a child regarding crime is shocking. We see boys and girls coming in day in day out as witnesses for their parents and their attitude towards crime and law is suitably weak. What's the point in criminalising them? Remember, you can threaten to cut someone's hands off for stealing and they'll still do it.

Quote (Reod Dai @ 6th July 2009 22:55)

I'm not dismissing the consequences of a child's upbringing, but I feel it necessary to point out a few things.  Firstly, that it has been proven that children are far more affected by their peers than by their parents (friends, siblings, classmates, etc.).

You're saying it's been proven that a classmate can have more of an effect on a child than an abusive father? Is there not some massive failure of logic there? I don't doubt that friends or whoever could quite possibly have a greater effect depending on the situation, but in MJ's case, and in most others, it was the parent.

Quote (Reod Dai @ 6th July 2009 22:55)

Secondly, that basic morality is not relative.  A decent, moral person knows the difference between right and wrong.  And Michael Jackson, over the course of his life, displayed certain moral deficiencies.

I don't believe that there is such a thing as an innate morality. In your terms, if basic morality is not relative, why didn't MJ possess it? Let's suppose he was guilty of all his alleged crimes, does it not make you wonder how an innocent boy who once sang like an angel in the Jackson 5 could be turned into a paedophile?

Quote (Reod Dai @ 6th July 2009 22:55)

It sounds like he was really suffering. Shame on his father and on society for making him act that way.

I know what you're trying to say, but why else would he do what he did? It sounds to me like you're saying he's just a bad person by nature.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.