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To anyone interested in the potential of a Chrono Trigger sequel, here is some news for you. It's not the good kind. But not bad, either, unless you were following it. You don't know what I'm talking about, do you?

Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes was a fan-made sequel created by hacking the original ROM. If you remember Chrono Resurrection, you'll see where I'm going with this. After over four years of production, the developer received a cease and desist letter from Square-Enix. The project was due to release at the end of this month. A bit of a harsh move on their part, in my opinion, but if you're an optimist, it may mean that they have plans for a CT sequel of their own...

Here's hoping.

Source: Slashdot

This post has been edited by Tiddles on 12th May 2009 21:11

I read that earlier today. That really sucks. A lot of work goes into those projects, so to have it canceled after 4 years of work is just a giant punch to the gut. Maybe they have plans for a CT/CC sequel or whatever, but I doubt it. I think it was more just them flexing their muscles and showing the power they have.

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Is PJ

I can certainly empathize with the developers, given my own role as the person that might someday get a letter like that - hey, who can tell? It sucks to lose that experience, but they can never fully take experience away from you, even if the tangible product no longer exists.

By the same token, though, Mike and I were talking about this before he posted it, and I can also see where SE are coming from. This will obviously be hard on company goodwill among the fanbase - I don't think there's a soul out there who would boycott the company over this, of course, but beating up on the fans is never good for morale. And I think that's the reason why it's happening now - we all know that virtually none of these fan projects ever make it to anything resembling a public release. So, why should SE go sending out C&Ds to the 90%+ of these projects that will die in utero? It only logically makes sense from their perspective to use resources to only go after the properties with the biggest impact on their universe.

All in all, maybe this game would have been amazing, maybe it wouldn't have been, and maybe that last 2% the development team claimed to have left before release might not have never been done. We won't ever know now, but does it really matter?

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It's a particularly low blow to go after a ROM hack, and quite out of the ordinary. Compare this attitude to that of Sega, who not only turn a blind eye to a trillion Sonic hacks and modifications, both complete and otherwise, but have also been known to use freely available emulators and authors from the "scene" to port their own work to other systems.

On the minus side, they've also forgotten how to make good games, but that's another story.

Even former kings of corporate terror Nintendo seem to turn a blind eye to this stuff. If anything, they seem to be following a more recent trend of taking a lighter touch on emulation (and hacks by extension) of old stuff, so it seems pretty strange for Square Enix to bother doing something that would almost certainly do nothing to harm their profits and almost certainly do something to harm their public support.

Another official CT title would be nice, but it seems more likely they just wanted to use "Crimson Echoes" as the title for yet another FF7 spinoff.

Quote (Rangers51 @ 12th May 2009 18:32)

We won't ever know now, but does it really matter?

I'd say that it does matter to the poor soul that poured four years of creative talent into the project. He was only trying to ressurect a game that's been dead for well over a decade.

I'm done with Square after hearing this, I won't pay for anything they produce again and I'll make sure word about this gets around.

I think that the strangest thing is that Square-Enix seems to be singularly targeting Chrono Trigger projects and nothing else. Do we know of any other examples of this kind of action from S-E other than CT Resurrection and CT Crimson Echoes? It seems that they're guarding this IP with incredible jealousy, and it happens to be a game particularly close to their heart. Do they have plans for the franchise that they aren't telling us?

Of course it's within their rights to do all of this, but it's also awfully mean of them. I mean, a rom hack? Really?

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END SPOILER

Between this and Resurrection, Squenix Squenidos had BETTER have something very nice brewing.

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It's pretty clear from the Cease and Desist letter received that this group knew what they were doing was against copyright and they continued in the hopes that they were small enough to not be found out. Oops! Yeah, sucks for the time lost, but they should've known better, particularly after what happened to Chrono Resurrection.

I don't think this means anything for a potential sequel - you really can't call CT a dead game when they just re-released it.

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That really sucks because thats four years of hardwork down the drain and it was supposed to be released this month too. I kinda wanna play the hacked rom now.

Quote (Dragoon Lance @ 12th May 2009 17:22)

I'd say that it does matter to the poor soul that poured four years of creative talent into the project. He was only trying to ressurect a game that's been dead for well over a decade.

I'm done with Square after hearing this, I won't pay for anything they produce again and I'll make sure word about this gets around.

From reading that guy's posts, I think he's taking it pretty well, or at least as well as one could take it. But as Neal posted, it really doesn't look like they thought they were ever 100% in the clear anyway - caveat emptor, or whatever the Latin is for "developer beware."

Please do let us know how your boycott goes.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

IMO the question of a new Chrono game is not if, it's when. Square likes money.

I've heard all sorts of rumors for years, such as they've already had a copyright out on the name "Chrono Break," which was years ago, and that sort of thing.

Really, I don't know what they could add to the Chrono series. I actually heard a while back ago it was going to be a Final Fantasy, but I guess it took on a life of its own. Or that was a rumor.


Either way, until the press release is out, I definitely wouldn't hold my breath on a Chrono sequel.

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You're telling me that there's no hope.

I'm telling you you're wrong.

Didn't said copyright expire without renewal?

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

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I believe it did it America, but that the equivalent didn't in Japan. That's what I've heard at least. I think a sequel could be great fun: maybe take it back to time travel. There's a ton that squenix could do with that. And whoever said it above was right: they like money. A lot. I hope they act on this but I'm not gonna get too hopeful.

I can't believe the developers of this are taking it "well." I would be completely pissed to see that happen after four years. I understand the importance, though, of squenix crushing these minor heresies when they arise.

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Quote (Death Penalty @ 15th May 2009 19:26)

I can't believe the developers of this are taking it "well." I would be completely pissed to see that happen after four years. I understand the importance, though, of squenix crushing these minor heresies when they arise.

I don't understand this "understanding".

The chances of Squenidos creating a plot remotely like the one that would be explored by such a fan-made ROM hack is miniscule at best.

I have more agreement with Squenix (or was it Square back then) shutting down CT Resurrection, since I could see them wanting to make a 3D remake of CT. A sequel is a different story--literally and figuratively.

The only argument that I can see is "fans will get attached to this one continuity and will dislike our canon when we get around to producing it". Any thoughts on how much weight this thought should have?

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Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 16th May 2009 06:06)

The only argument that I can see is "fans will get attached to this one continuity and will dislike our canon when we get around to producing it". Any thoughts on how much weight this thought should have?

I don't really believe it should have any.

I can't believe all the Squenidos fanboys NOT buying anything that the company sells. No matter how good a fan-made sequel/spin-off would be, I just can't see it making lessenning sales of a "real" sequel.

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I tend to agree, which is why I find this entirely bizarre.

By now, I can't believe that any company that ever produced a 16-bit era game would be ignorant of the existence of ROM hacks. There are some good sequels and mods out there, but they don't get shut down. It's very strange that this one did.

I think the thing that really gets me is the timing. As reported, this was in progress for years and Squenix chose to send a C&D letter in the home stretch of its production. That's just rude, frankly. I'd be amazed if they didn't know about it sooner. In that respect it's quite different from the Resurrection case where, although a lot of work had gone into it, the game wasn't anywhere near completion.

And as GMH said, that was a much more obvious avenue to shut down - not just because Squenix might go for a 3D remake themselves, but because between a free 3D remake and a DS port of the original, a lot of people would probably pick the free and more "sophisticated" version. Even if Squenix planned their own sequel, it would be a major surprise if it covered any of the same ground.

But then there's also that little facet of trademark law that says that if you don't vigourously defend your trademark, you can lose it. So maybe this relates to that and they would have been OK if they'd called it "Ronno Bigger" or something. True grassy knollers might also suggest that Square liked what they'd seen so much that they hired the people behind it to pen an official sequel. That would be utterly absurd, but the whole affair is really.

It's mind boggling that Squenix hasn't bothered with a sequel in the first place. We're still getting crap series like Tomb Raider but we can't get a sequel of one of the greatest RPGs of all time? Thirteen FFs but not two Chronos? Just seems like bad business. Could you imagine a new Chrono on the PS3? The game could be epic.

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Quote (Bum Rush Blitzer @ 16th May 2009 19:14)

It's mind boggling that Squenix hasn't bothered with a sequel in the first place. We're still getting crap series like Tomb Raider but we can't get a sequel of one of the greatest RPGs of all time? Thirteen FFs but not two Chronos? Just seems like bad business. Could you imagine a new Chrono on the PS3? The game could be epic.

Well, for what it's worth, they don't want to ruin the "prestige" of the Chrono series name by putting out quick "crap games".

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

CT came out in what, 1995? I think there's been sufficient time to avoid producing out a crappy sequel.

Edit

I don't mean to sound like I ignore Chrono Cross completely. It was a pretty good game but never felt like a sequel. It's also been 8 or 9 years since it came out. We're due for another.

This post has been edited by Bum Rush Blitzer on 18th May 2009 00:11

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Sabin: Kefka! Wait!
Kefka: Wait he says! Do I look like a waiter?

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 17th May 2009 12:21)

Well, for what it's worth, they don't want to ruin the "prestige" of the Chrono series name by putting out quick "crap games".

Riiight. Because SE totally never puts out craptastic games with well known branding on them >_>

Sorry, but all of the Mana, Ivalice, and FFVII new stuff has been subpar IMHO.

Quote (yelanates @ 17th May 2009 21:01)

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 17th May 2009 12:21)

Well, for what it's worth, they don't want to ruin the "prestige" of the Chrono series name by putting out quick "crap games".

Riiight. Because SE totally never puts out craptastic games with well known branding on them >_>

Sorry, but all of the Mana, Ivalice, and FFVII new stuff has been subpar IMHO.

I never said they had a perfect record.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

If anyone's still curious as to how this turned out before it was ended, there's a playthrough up on youtube from the team here. Lots of director commentary/annotations in there, too. I'm enjoying watching it so far, though i'm only at part 4.

It's too bad Squenix had a fit and shut these guys down. As has been mentioned, Squenix is very unlikely to do anything similar (plot-wise, anyways) to these guys. If they're not going to put anything out for the large group of people that wants to see more Chrono, they should at least let these guys put that content out there (who knows, maybe they'd attract a few people who weren't fans of the series before). It could prime the market for when (if) they ever decide to put another out. And, if they're not planning on putting anything out there, why are they so bent out of shape?

Maybe they could work something out to put it on the Wii virtual console. It strikes me as a shame to have content like this going unused.

They have to keep a tight rein on their franchises because if they allow one franchise to be used, then soon all franchises will be targeted. Theres only so far you can allow people to go with your property, before it starts costing you money. Look at music shareware for a prime example. CD sales have taken a huge hit because of sites like napster and limewire. If the video game developers start allowing private citizens free access to their games, free games will start to take over, and cripple companies.

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Quote (r_c_cola2001 @ 2nd June 2009 16:28)

They have to keep a tight rein on their franchises because if they allow one franchise to be used, then soon all franchises will be targeted. Theres only so far you can allow people to go with your property, before it starts costing you money. Look at music shareware for a prime example. CD sales have taken a huge hit because of sites like napster and limewire. If the video game developers start allowing private citizens free access to their games, free games will start to take over, and cripple companies.

1. As for your assertion that CD sales have plummeted due to downloads being available, I've heard that claim disputed. Care to provide some links to evidence?

2. Going by the reasoning of your last sentence, you actually seem to effectively refer to emulation and the distribution of ROMs and ISOs. Not many people question the illegality of those. I feel the point here isn't about ROMs being distributed; it's about a fan-derivative of their work being quashed.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

After reading my post, it dawned on me that what I said and meant were two different things. Allow me to clarify what I meant.

1. Anytime a form of media goes through a transitional period, there are always "slumps" in sales as consumers shift from one item to the next. With the rise of downloads came mp3s, ipods, etc. During this period, while music producers are converting songs to different formats (specifically, creating sites that they can make money off of), a reasonable amount of consumers will sit and wait to see whether the new type of unit will actually be worth it. (Think beta vs vhs, or blue ray vs hd dvd) However, with mp3s, this technology was driven by necessity. It caught big business off guard.

In short, during the period of transition from CDs to mp3s, CD sales took a hit while people waited to see what the future was.

2. I really cant put this into proper words personally, so I'm going to borrow a link from another bb I post on. My favorite author requested that we not use her works for any kind of larp, table top game, etc.. When asked why, she directed us to a link that a friend of hers (another author) wrote to explain why they wont allow people to use their works.

http://www.cheysuli.com/author/a.permission.html

I hope this makes sense... Cause I have a feeling I still dont

This post has been edited by r_c_cola2001 on 3rd June 2009 19:54

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think you're a true rp dork - try it live action shifted lands

Say, has anyone heard of a beta version (the 98% complete game) that's leaked online? I've been seeing lots of buzz in other forums and some people claim to have it already.

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"The answer is, of course, that it would be best to be both loved and feared. But since the two rarely come together, anyone compelled to choose will find greater security in being feared than in being loved."
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Quote (baralai888 @ 4th June 2009 22:21)

Say, has anyone heard of a beta version (the 98% complete game) that's leaked online? I've been seeing lots of buzz in other forums and some people claim to have it already.

There was a beta out, and when the C&D came down, the authors of the game asked all beta testers to destroy their copies to comply with the C&D. Obviously, some will claim to have done it and will not, and among those, one is likely to be dumb enough to have leaked it out further. I wouldn't recommend going looking for it, though, because IIRC the authors have already said publicly that they would not protect anyone who did not comply with the C&D.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?