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It might seem like a straightforward question but before answering please take the point below into consideration.

It's not enough to say "highly-detailed graphics, brilliant story, and fun and lasting gameplay." We've had that in FFX and many other games, but they aren't enough for everyone. For whatever reason, pouring money into something to get the best technological standards, the best music score and the best script doesn't necessary make a good game. There's something deeper which is missing.

A few possible answers I can see: uniqueness, which will inevitably get old; lasting value, either through official or user-made extra content; hype, it's tempting to like something that everyone else does; or nostalgia, simple enough to understand.

The question came to me when I realised that everybody's favourite game, as far as I'm aware, is not on the basis of good graphics or gameplay, but on something else.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

I don't think uniqueness has anything to do with whether a game is good or not.

The only single-word answer I feel is worth giving is execution. Lots of good and bad games have interesting or boring plots, intriguing or uninspired concepts, or gorgeous or underwhelming visuals and audio. The trick is: does everything come together in a package that just works. A good game doesn't feel like work, and makes you want to keep playing it longer than you're supposed to.

Of course, tastes and preferences throw a wrench into this discussion. I think that Monster Hunter Freedom 2 is a bad game in several ways, but I still like it. I think that Gears of War is a very good game, but I don't like it. Ain't I a stinker?

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this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

Uniqueness is important. Thief just wouldn't have been good if it was didn't have a totally new angle to offer the FPS genre. Remember that its stealth gameplay was actually really poorly executed by today's comparison, or its sequel for that matter. I'm not saying a good game always has to be unique, but some games are only good because of it.

Quote (laszlow @ th July 2009 16:06)

The only single-word answer I feel is worth giving is execution. Lots of good and bad games have interesting or boring plots, intriguing or uninspired concepts, or gorgeous or underwhelming visuals and audio. The trick is: does everything come together in a package that just works. A good game doesn't feel like work, and makes you want to keep playing it longer than you're supposed to.

What you've written there is exactly my problem. What is execution? What makes all these elements gel together? It's not just a simple balancing act, otherwise conventionally solid games like Headhunter and Syphon Filter, games that are average but apply a consistent formula that 'works', would be just as good as, say, Half-Life 2, which applies the same formula as Half-Life and other FPS games, but is clearly much better than the former two. I believe that something akin to hype or uniqueness is really what unites the obvious factors of graphics, story etc into a good game.

And, yes, taste accounts for a lot, that's why everyone needs to put their own input in. It's more to do with what you think is a good game, not the conventional method of reviews based on graphics, gameplay etc. So you might say MH is a bad game, but you're enjoying playing it so something must be working. Maybe because there is no other game that gives you that experience? You could call that uniqueness.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

What makes a game good is a question that my friends and I have been debating for years now.we have come up with decent answers but Ive found some to be better than others

Replay value: A game just isn't a game unless you feel like playing it again.

Difficulty: It has to be balanced you can't be uber powerful from level one or Uber weak the whole game through

Collectables: Every good game that I have played contains collectables

The final boss: There is always a final boss in every good game the mastermind behind it all

A worthy cause: Games that have you fighting for no apparent reason generally suck you need a reason for playing be it revenge monetary gain or the struggle to be better than everybody else you need a reason. I don't like many arcade games because of this they just pit you against foes for absolutely no reason

Sequels: There mustn't be too many sequels otherwise the game will lose its freshness

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Since I advertise CoN there I think it's only fair that I advertise The Wiki here.

Quote (sweetdude @ 4th July 2009 14:40)

It might seem like a straightforward question but before answering please take the point below into consideration.

It's not enough to say "highly-detailed graphics, brilliant story, and fun and lasting gameplay." We've had that in FFX and many other games, but they aren't enough for everyone. For whatever reason, pouring money into something to get the best technological standards, the best music score and the best script doesn't necessary make a good game. There's something deeper which is missing.

A few possible answers I can see: uniqueness, which will inevitably get old; lasting value, either through official or user-made extra content; hype, it's tempting to like something that everyone else does; or nostalgia, simple enough to understand.

The question came to me when I realised that everybody's favourite game, as far as I'm aware, is not on the basis of good graphics or gameplay, but on something else.

This is a rather long and complex thing to ponder about.

When i first play a game i'm interested in it being able to grab me from the starts,not just beutifull graphics and repetitiveness.

1:A game has to be well balanced in dificulty,you do too much dificulty and it becomes boring and unsatisfying to beat because its impossible but if its too easy its gameplay goes down.

2:A game also must try not to be linear among some things.
I played suikoden 4 and hated the fact that it was linear and hardly anywhere to explore.

3:There should be at least good characters or a good story,in games gameplay is every bit just as important,afterall it isn't a movie.
Even if the story is so so try to balance it between story and characters.

4:Use those cgi effects to render emotions correctly and use voices in the right measurements.

5:Don't rush a game,rushing a game is a way of missing out on something really important.'

I think these 5 steps are quite important story characters gameplay graphics used correctly to bring people to tears and of course not rushing a game to get it out earlier before fixing bugs or plotholes or mistranslations.

I think for an example the music sets a mood and its a secondary tool in comparison to the story and characters.

A example of the graphics used correctly is:
1:code veronica xThe voicing of wesker was just pure awesomeness when he fought alexia it was ultra epic.
2:parasite eve the video of animals transforming was just so cool and it added something to the game and the intro was awesom.
3:ff6 and the famous scene of ultros in the theatre was epic in this legendary rpg,it was i think my favorite scene in the game.The music was also really cool for ultros and the opera was hilarious.
4:Resident evil 1:Between the music and the creepy graphics it had you scared silly.It was the whole aura wich was graphics and sound,i loved the plant track btw.
5:metal gear soid 3 final boss battle
Metal gear solid 4 battle with liquid ocelot who is old when you fight him to the death,it was pretty cool scene.

I like graphics when they are used as a tool and not the main theme of a game.The graphics in alot of new games are also used to set a mood to the game and it gives it a special kick when used correctly.



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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

This has become far too long but I got a bit carried away... I've gone through why I think HL and Portal are good, then moved to WoW and MMOs in general, then characterisation and MGS, then Super Mario Bros. and bad graphics and gameplay which are still somehow considered good, then 2D fighters, and then finally why RPGs and story-based games are good. You might find some of this quite interesting.

Quote (R8.50 Mango @ 4th July 2009 20:30)

A worthy cause: Games that have you fighting for no apparent reason generally suck you need a reason for playing be it revenge monetary gain or the struggle to be better than everybody else you need a reason. I don't like many arcade games because of this they just pit you against foes for absolutely no reason

That's it actually. It seems too simple but that is exactly what makes a good game. You've convinced me completely!

Let me elaborate. A good game has to give the player some purpose to continue, either by building your character in the game or your own level of playing. That's exactly why a game with a story can be just as good as a game with no story. Going back to the gameplay of Syphon Filter and Half-Life 2 I described before, the former is only an average game because it only offers a mediocre level of pursuit and reward. The latter, however, is extremely rewarding and completing each puzzle or battle feels like a massive pat on the back.

Incidentally, that must be why Portal is so brilliant. It managed to offer a lot of incentive to continue with the game. We want to keep going because we want the computer woman to talk to us more, and also because the last challenge was rewarding to complete and we want more. The only criticism is that the game's too short. That doesn't mean it only lasts three hours, that means the game stops offering goals and rewards.

With WoW, I lost interest because I didn't see any obvious reason to continue playing. The quests weren't rewarding enough, so I didn't want to pursue them. Other people do see these quests or character building as enjoyable and therefore continue. I still think it's a good game because I appreciate that other people enjoy meeting the goals the game sets for them, or they set for themselves.

Metal Gear Solid wouldn't be half the game it is without Solid Snake, that's a given. But that doesn't mean that good characterisation makes a good game. The benefits of likeable characters is that it gives the player more motivation to play the game and therefore more pursuit and reward, especially seeing Snake beat Ocelot another five times.

This could mean that we don't need good graphics (most people have established that) and, possibly, we don't even need good gameplay? That would certainly explain why Super Mario Bros. is still considered a good game, despite its graphics and gameplay being generally poor in today's market.

You said that 2D fighters don't give you enough motivation to continue. For me, the motivation is either because I enjoy playing as a character I like, or to try and beat the game on a harder level and test myself. The reward of seeing a my character win is what makes it good. So, theoretically, the game could have two moves, punch and kick, yet still be motivating enough through characterisation and achievement to be considered a good game.

Lastly, RPGs and the story in games. Many people enjoy playing through a story, but I would say that it's not about simply reading a script. A good story-based RPG will reward you with more good story if you continue to beat the bosses and get through the dungeons. A bad RPG will not reward you with enough story progression, or alternatively, too much progression or dialogue. An RPG can have a brilliant but poorly distributed plot and therefore suffer. Lost Odyssey is a perfect example.

If anyone has another idea or a reason why this isn't true I'd be interested in reading it. As far as I can see, that fits the problem perfectly, and it explains a lot about gaming that I couldn't quite consolidate before.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

What I look for is a good story. If there's a game with a strong plot and interesting characters that motivates me to play to the point that I feel a connection with my characters and their struggle, then it's a great game.

I find that a game's graphics simply complement overall effect: different styles and qualities of graphics don't make me think better of or worse of a game, but they give me a different feel for it. Different styles of graphics have me coming away with a different feel.

Good gameplay is always nice, but less than perfect gameplay can easily be excused so long as my first condition is met. There are a lot of games with very similar gameplay. It's the plot that makes one of those games stand apart.

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

What I call it is the feel of the game. I've posted this before I think (maybe even recently).

But it's when the graphics, story, and gameplay all mix together. In some games, the gameplay really isn't strong, but the story is awesome. And some games, the story is non-existant, but it is just so fun to play.

The reason I call it the feel of the game is this: often, the graphics, story, and/or gameplay can be similar from one game to another. But all of them mixed together form kind of a blueprint, or a fingerprint, for the game. And that is why Modern Warfare 1 and 2 will be different. Because they feel different.

Like Fallout for instance. When you play it, all of the aspects (sounds, visuals, character, plot, and gameplay) all come together. You go into the Super Duper Mart at the beginning. And you kill the raiders in the level. And there is excitement after watching their heads come off. Then, you kill them, and all is silent, and that simplistic, sad music starts playing. And then you start to look around what used to be a super market which we've all seen before), except with debri from the explosions, and while you scavenge for survival, or sad sort of feeling comes over you.

Or you turn on FFVI, and you hear that organ rise up along with the lightning and clouds. The title appears and then a piano softly play. And then that beautiful epic music starts as they tell you the history of the world. And then you start playing that ATB style gameplay, and something just captures you.

And it's really not just one thing doing it; it's the parts fused together that make the whole. All of those aspects of the game have come together to create a good game.

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Praise Be To Helix!

At this point in my life, I am quite sick of good graphics in video games. If I wanted such good graphics, I'd watch a movie. I honestly just care about two things with video games.

1. Gameplay: Mainly, the game needs to have controls that suit the genre of the game. This could include stiff controls, poor capabilities of the character in the game (e.g. can't change direction in the air, can only attack while standing still and on the ground, etc), or just overall poor mechanics of the game. Those are the main issues I have with some bad games. There are some games that have these but are still really good because they make up for it in other regards (see Startropics), but usually a game with poor gameplay is not worth even considering for me.

2. Difficulty: Anybody who knows my taste in video games knows I am a masochist. 7th Saga is my favorite RPG and Battletoads is my favorite video game series. I like absurdly difficult games. There is a limit to this, though. The game needs to be fair but difficult. It shouldn't be difficult due to really poor game mechanics (lolz you can't beat level 1 because you can't upgrade your ship to move fast enough to dodge the bullets). Battletoads is a really, really hard game, but the toads handle really well and the game has really good collision detection and such. It's just plain hard. If a game is too easy I get bored with it really quickly. I will play ANY game all the way through once, but I can really only play difficult games multiple times. This is why I have 8 completed files of 7th Saga (one on the Japanese version) on console, yet only one completed file of most other games.

In general, stereotyping a whole lot, most modern games fail to live up to condition 2, which is why I rarely travel outside of the SNES realm for entertainment. Those games that ARE difficult are usually only difficult due to broken controls that make it nearly impossible to actually play the game (see Lagoon). I honestly don't care about plot in games because I'm too lazy to read text anyways, and things like graphics really only make a difference when they are really debilitating and make it impossible to discern what to do in the game (or if the game is Lagoon).

Replay value is important for a good game, but for me replay value is a function of difficulty and gameplay, so it is already accounted for. I really only enjoy playing the super difficult games; it is truly exceptional if I replay an easy game just because it's so fun. Kirby Superstar, Joe & Mac, Actraiser and a few other SNES titles fall under this category.

I got sidetracked after the previous thought so I'll just leave it at that. I doubt anyone cares what I think anyways, so post count++.

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Is PJ

Ive come back with a few more reasons.

1. A VERY good soundtrack. I've tried playing games without any sound and it sucks, I mean really sucks. Games with bad sound tracks are almost as bad with grating,shuddering,random pauses or general scrappiness that hurt the ears and make you wish you hadn't wasted all that money

2. Openness. A game that is completely linear with no choice is the gaming equivelant of Fascism. can't do this can't do that gotta be in bed before 6 stay in your room etc.You'll find youself throwing it away VERY quickly.

3. Feeling. I don't know how to explan this but I'll try my best... a game is good when it makes you feel powerful emotions. Even games where I'm happy to see one of the main characters die is good because I'm feeling emotions. A crap game gives me a deadpan look when one of the main characters is gone...I just don't notice it. When you see something that vaguely reminds you of the game you get a ...feeling...an emotion...like nostalgia only far more powerful and poetic. It rockets you backwards to the best parts of the game ,makes you relive them, a chill runs up your spine and you just... drift ... for a few seconds and then you snap out of it and want to get home immediatley just to replay the game. Good gameplay and story are important but they're so ...mechanical... lots of people can make a good story and many can make a game system that is very fun but its just not enough. Games are the closest we can get to mystical magic and a really good game will cast its spell on you.

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Since I advertise CoN there I think it's only fair that I advertise The Wiki here.

Quote (R8.50 Mango @ 14th July 2009 22:52)

Ive come back with a few more reasons.

1. A VERY good soundtrack. I've tried playing games without any sound and it sucks, I mean really sucks. Games with bad sound tracks are almost as bad with grating,shuddering,random pauses or general scrappiness that hurt the ears and make you wish you hadn't wasted all that money

2. Openness. A game that is completely linear with no choice is the gaming equivelant of Fascism. can't do this can't do that gotta be in bed before 6 stay in your room etc.You'll find youself throwing it away VERY quickly.

3. Feeling. I don't know how to explan this but I'll try my best... a game is good when it makes you feel powerful emotions. Even games where I'm happy to see one of the main characters die is good because I'm feeling emotions. A crap game gives me a deadpan look when one of the main characters is gone...I just don't notice it. When you see something that vaguely reminds you of the game you get a ...feeling...an emotion...like nostalgia only far more powerful and poetic. It rockets you backwards to the best parts of the game ,makes you relive them, a chill runs up your spine and you just... drift ... for a few seconds and then you snap out of it and want to get home immediatley just to replay the game. Good gameplay and story are important but they're so ...mechanical... lots of people can make a good story and many can make a game system that is very fun but its just not enough. Games are the closest we can get to mystical magic and a really good game will cast its spell on you.

Nicely put mango

It is like the feeling i had when i first played final fantasy 4 wich had a major impact on me,i fell in love with the characters themselves because i loved them dearly,why? i felt there was some deep conection.

Did you ever play breath of fire 1 mango?

The music wasn't very good,especially the the dungeon music wich was so bad it was laughable.

still the game had something that i liked because i played it 5 or 6 times and enjoyed it,i believe it did have some pieces that were ok of music most of em in fact were ok,just the dungeon piece and the story was simple but somehow even if the story wasn't a big deal i still wanted to go on and play.

I guess what i am saying is,if the music is so so and the game is good,you can just turn off the music and play the game.

I turned off the music in ultima underworld and still i loved that game,not because of its music but because there was something magical about going in those cavernous dungeons and getting the magic ankh stones to cast spells and finish quests,there was also alot of mystical creatures and it made the game very enjoyable.

I believe games should not be like movies,if you want to watch a movie it should be a good movie and not a videogame,i do not find it fun to sit through an hour or an hour and a half long video in a videogame.

That is why i was so thoroughly annoyed by metal gear solid 4 and its last video.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 21st July 2009 21:35

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.