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I just posted this a couple of minutes ago.

http://www.cavesofnarshe.com/forums/ipb/in...=0&#entry177920

This part is the part that made me think.

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I don't think they will, but they could have added content, like a making of (which is something I've wanted from games for a long time). That might be their downfall, their neglection of software.

This has really angered me. When you watch a DVD, you can often have hours of special features, but games do not. Some games do go all out, and most have concept art, but most of the time you have the game and that's it. Yet we pay a lot more for games.

I have two questions.

1) Do you want more special features/extras?
2) Do you think we will get any more for new games?

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Praise Be To Helix!

I don't really bother to watch special features on most of the DVDs I have, and that's quite a few. Usually I go no deeper than deleted scenes, and I probably haven't even done that on more than 20% of my discs.

That being the case, you can tell that I'm not too bothered by it. Of course, I don't tend to pay a lot for my games, either; if you don't consider the obvious outlier of Rock Band 2, I haven't paid more than $20 for a game in I don't know how long:

Unreal Tournament III: $10
Worldwide Soccer Manager '09: $15
Left 4 Dead: Gift
Bioshock: $20
NCAA Football '07: $5

The list goes on - not really relevant, but I'm just saying, at those prices I'm not aching for additional content.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

I think the game itself already has far more interactivity than a movie does anyway.

But I feel that this is a comparison between apples and oranges.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

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I haven't gone anywhere near the extra content in DVDs since the first release of Donnie Darko, and even then it was just incase there would be an explanation of what actually happened at the end, although I liked whatever it was anyway. I would've done the same with Pan's Labyrinth but I was borrowing it and I had to give it back before I could see anything.

I couldn't imagine a good game with directors commentary. Although maybe it could be quite funny. Like, say, if you're about to die, the director swoops in and tells you how bad you're doing and how the concept art of all the blood spilling from your chest and arms was based on the residue of a tomato ketchup bottle at his mother's house; and other utterly useless pieces of information.

I would be happy if the soundtracks were included, but it's not too important. Most soundtracks only have one or two songs that I would consider listening to outside the context of the game.

Basically, instead of all the stuff in a DVD, I'd rather have more time spent on content in the game. Games like Resident Evil Outbreak have some stuff like that included, but I'm really interested.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (sweetdude @ 1st June 2009 22:23)

Basically, instead of all the stuff in a DVD, I'd rather have more time spent on content in the game.

They don't have to sacrifice game quality. Look at the LotR special editions. Great movies, with hours upon hours of special features.

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Praise Be To Helix!

to hell with special features, gimme a great game or an awesome movie and that's all I need, but I know what you mean dude! Quite frankly I could care less for special features, but if you're going to put special features on something make sure they actually are special features and not some dumb trailer or just a slide show.

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PS3 tag: TipoDLuffy

"...quite possibly the greatest game ever made"

Quote (sweetdude @ 1st June 2009 18:23)

I couldn't imagine a good game with directors commentary. Although maybe it could be quite funny. Like, say, if you're about to die, the director swoops in and tells you how bad you're doing and how the concept art of all the blood spilling from your chest and arms was based on the residue of a tomato ketchup bottle at his mother's house; and other utterly useless pieces of information.

I would be happy if the soundtracks were included, but it's not too important. Most soundtracks only have one or two songs that I would consider listening to outside the context of the game.

Well, they can also include some very relevant things.

For example, I'm aware that the Kiddy Grade DVDs include things like character bios and (I think) various setting information that's never revealed in the show itself. (Along with "useless" extras such as the opening and closing themes without credits.)

That sort of stuff reminds me of the Chozo Lore and Pirate Logs from Metroid Prime. They aren't necessary (at least I don't think so; correct me if I'm wrong) to beat the game, but they did really add a LOT to the gameplay experience.

Now, a director's commentary version would just be narm, but could be funny if you're doing it on a second play-through.

But in any case, a fully-featured version, showing you how lots of stuff gets done by the game engine and stuff, is probably better. They could make it a simple commentary video, or they could go one step further and actually give you an editor that would let you tweak the stats on enemies and stuff, or perhaps a "custom coliseum" where you could set up your own RPG party with particular equipment and battle particular enemies, or something like that.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

I'm not talking about a director's commentary, but how about a director interview. They could make an extensive making of featurette, or a history of the game, character bios.

All I'm saying is that they could do much more.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 2nd June 2009 00:40)

I'm not talking about a director's commentary, but how about a director interview. They could make an extensive making of featurette, or a history of the game, character bios.

All I'm saying is that they could do much more.

Valve has actually done development commentaries on several games, specifically those included in the Orange Box for PC. Obviously the commentaries don't work quite like those on a DVD - in this case, they show up as icons which you can choose to ignore or trigger. The latter fires off a commentary of varying length relevant to the position you're in.

And yes, they could do all the things you mention, but I don't really see it happening. The reason you see all those things on DVD is that there typically is a lag time between when the content is created and when the DVD is released. For feature films, it's the time between when a film is put in the can, publicized, put into theatres, has a theatre run, has a run at a second-run theatre, and then hangs out while the marketing department sets a DVD release date. For TV shows, it's the time during which the season runs and then goes into re-runs (and then, again, Marketing).

With a video game, it's not quite the same. Perhaps there's a demo out, but that's not a whole game - in a lot of cases, development continues pretty much until the publisher has to start the presses and crank out discs (to, shock, meet Marketing deadlines!). If you're a developer working seventy hours a week to get your actual product out the door, are you going to be interested in helping the artistic director or the producer get their ramblings on the disc? I wouldn't be, myself.

Now, your point is interesting for some games, for instance those that are re-released as special editions (such as GotY) down the road. If the group is not already working on the next big game or download pack - which isn't very likely - they could probably do more stuff like what you suggest. But I think to do it for more than a handful of games a year is suggesting that the industry change its whole development model. Don't hold your breath.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 2nd June 2009 03:30)

or they could go one step further and actually give you an editor that would let you tweak the stats on enemies and stuff, or perhaps a "custom coliseum" where you could set up your own RPG party with particular equipment and battle particular enemies, or something like that.

That would be really good. I'm all for editors and SDKs but it doesn't strike me as DVD-style extras. This kind of extra content has been in PC gaming for decades, and it's also in some console games. In my opinion, it should be standard practise to include some kind of map, monster and/or level creation tool; even if it was integrated into the game in a coliseum like you said. I think FarCry 2 has something along these lines on PS3 and 360. I don't know for sure though.

As for bios and so on, no way. Halo basically relied on all these to carry the story. The game provided so little that you had to find out everything from the manual, the books or the internet. That's not very good work on their part. If this were included in most games, I wouldn't complain nor actually read them, but I'm worried that the Halo formula of 'how to tell a story' might catch on.

There's no harm in making-of videos, I just wouldn't watch them, and therefore I don't see it adding any value to the game or justifying a price tag of £50. That's just my opinion obviously.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (Rangers51 @ 2nd June 2009 12:09)

And yes, they could do all the things you mention, but I don't really see it happening. The reason you see all those things on DVD is that there typically is a lag time between when the content is created and when the DVD is released. For feature films, it's the time between when a film is put in the can, publicized, put into theatres, has a theatre run, has a run at a second-run theatre, and then hangs out while the marketing department sets a DVD release date. For TV shows, it's the time during which the season runs and then goes into re-runs (and then, again, Marketing).

I guess money is the issue. I'm sure that would add another burden to the development team's budget. But game companies are always thinking about capitalizing on their products. By creating special editions of games, they could extend the profits of a game. For instance, they could release FFXIII, and then they could later release a special edition. That lag time is good in some regards, because it keeps the profits steady from box office to DVD and OnDemand.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (sweetdude)

As for bios and so on, no way. Halo basically relied on all these to carry the story. The game provided so little that you had to find out everything from the manual, the books or the internet. That's not very good work on their part. If this were included in most games, I wouldn't complain nor actually read them, but I'm worried that the Halo formula of 'how to tell a story' might catch on.

Are you saying that it was case of All There In The Manual? If that's the case, then I'd say that's just bad practice on their part. If anything, they should reveal the details in-game, and (if possible) relate them to the story, or at least make it interesting for you (say, to go find pieces of information, such as in Metroid Prime).

Or, they should allow you to see this stuff once you've beaten the game once.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 1st June 2009 14:16)

I think the game itself already has far more interactivity than a movie does anyway.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject.

Sure, if there was extra content included with a game I'd be happy, but I don't think it would ever sway my decision. Also, I'd just be annoyed if they started "George Lucas-ing" it up with ten or twenty special editions, each with different unique content. That would make me want to punch a baby (or, more likely, George Lucas).

Honestly, it's probably because a lot of people who watch movies have dreams of becoming in them, as in acting, directing or what have you, but less people have the interest to see what goes into a video game. A lot of fans want to grow up to be game designers, but a far bigger portion just want to shoot zombies and such than the amount of people who want to see what's behind Hollywood movie magic.

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You're telling me that there's no hope.

I'm telling you you're wrong.

Quote (RelmArrowney @ 3rd June 2009 06:40)

Honestly, it's probably because a lot of people who watch movies have dreams of becoming in them, as in acting, directing or what have you, but less people have the interest to see what goes into a video game. A lot of fans want to grow up to be game designers, but a far bigger portion just want to shoot zombies and such than the amount of people who want to see what's behind Hollywood movie magic.

That's true. That's why I want them. What made me want to try my lot in filmmaking was the special features on Lord of the Rings. I am interested in games as well. You know that other topic, "What type of Gamers are there?" I guess I'm the type that watches/plays a game and wonders how it was made, and wants to make one for himself. But I guess you're right. I'm in a very small boat all by myself, left to dream about how video games are made.

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Praise Be To Helix!

I remember when Lunar: Silver Star Story was launched for PSX, they had the special edition version that included a making of disc, with a few other special features included. In order to make this disc appealing, they included a special pong game. You got the code to play pong at the end of the credits. It was actually really fun. 8 player pong is a great drinking game.

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think you're a true rp dork - try it live action shifted lands

Quote (r_c_cola2001 @ 3rd June 2009 20:01)

I remember when Lunar: Silver Star Story was launched for PSX, they had the special edition version that included a making of disc, with a few other special features included. In order to make this disc appealing, they included a special pong game. You got the code to play pong at the end of the credits. It was actually really fun. 8 player pong is a great drinking game.

That sounds like a good idea. Another thing they could do is have those features on DLC. Then you could choose to download it if you wanted to. If you finish the game, you can download it for free.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 3rd June 2009 04:01)

Quote (sweetdude)

As for bios and so on, no way. Halo basically relied on all these to carry the story. The game provided so little that you had to find out everything from the manual, the books or the internet. That's not very good work on their part. If this were included in most games, I wouldn't complain nor actually read them, but I'm worried that the Halo formula of 'how to tell a story' might catch on.

Are you saying that it was case of All There In The Manual? If that's the case, then I'd say that's just bad practice on their part. If anything, they should reveal the details in-game, and (if possible) relate them to the story, or at least make it interesting for you (say, to go find pieces of information, such as in Metroid Prime).

Or, they should allow you to see this stuff once you've beaten the game once.

That's exactly it. Yes it was bad practise on their part. The forces of cause and effect are absent a lot of the time, which is a shame because some events, like the civil war in Halo 2, were really interesting and not developed enough. It's good to leave some things open to interpretation, but not to such an extent as Halo. Sometimes it felt like the writers were held back to warrant more official books or maintain interest in the franchise. That's frustrating.

Another thing that this topic brings to mind is the Collector's Edition of some games, with a little figure and some maps of levels or whatever. I ask, why can't they just put all this stuff in with the original game?

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

You play video games. Interactively. You are continually actively involved in the progression of the story. Furthermore, average replay value has only increased as years have gone by. Branching storylines, sidequests, and multiple character paths are just a few of the advancements of the variability of each playthrough these days.

You watch movies. You just sit there. There is no physical or mental interaction beyond the stimulation of entertainment and (perhaps) the movement of emotion. Even then, it's just the movie manipulating you, and not the other way around. And when it's over, and you try to watch it again, it's the exact same experience as before--despite the chance of you catching something new or understanding the events better, literally nothing has changed since the first time.

I don't pay much for (much less buy many) video games anymore like R51, but even in the past I've never complained about the price to the extent that I'm expecting special features or extras.

And what exactly are you looking for in a special feature? A behind-the-scenes look at a bunch of guys sitting in front of a computer for days on end? I think a big problem here is the misconception that video games are anywhere near as exciting in development as feature films. Yes, there can be interesting things, but how many 3D model constructions can you watch until you're tired of it? A Director's Cut with commentary could feasibly be interesting, but remember that we're dealing with experiences that could last anywhere from 10 to 60 hours worth of gameplay. Deadlines and sheer length considered, it's just not going to happen.

Besides, the last "special feature" I got was the comically bad Street Fighter Animated Movie in the Street Fighter Anniversary Collection. Awesome.

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I find your lack of faith disturbing...

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And what exactly are you looking for in a special feature? A behind-the-scenes look at a bunch of guys sitting in front of a computer for days on end? I think a big problem here is the misconception that video games are anywhere near as exciting in development as feature films. Yes, there can be interesting things, but how many 3D model constructions can you watch until you're tired of it?

I think that's a big part of it.

Another big part would be the already stated fact that games have so much interactive value.

I think a third bit would be that most people who are into videogames in the first place begin to pay attention to the games they look forward to playing from the developmental stages: I'm excited to play Versus XIII, so I've been watching the trailers and reading the interviews. For fans interested enough in such features, there is already a medium in place from which they can learn about the development of the game, all while development itself is taking place.

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The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

Fallout 3

Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

These two making ofs, Fallout 3 and Elder Scrolls, are really good making of features. They're about 40 minutes long, and they are pretty good. They don't have to make it boring. I think the Fallout 3 one is really good.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Side quests seem to be the special feature replacement unlockable content in some games based on movies or books too

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Since I advertise CoN there I think it's only fair that I advertise The Wiki here.

Quote (R8.50 Mango @ 4th July 2009 19:06)

Side quests seem to be the special feature replacement unlockable content in some games based on movies or books too

Yeah, I guess so. But then again, let's say I want the DLC for Fallout 3, which I do.

I can go into a store and buy all four DLCs for $40, or about $20 for each special pack.

Or, I'll have to pay $100 to get a wireless connection and then $10 for each DLC pack.

But either way, to get those "special features" I will have to pay over $100, while I can buy the extended Lord of the Rings movies with all the special features for less than that. Don't you all see how we're getting slighted.

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Praise Be To Helix!

IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY BY GAME MANUFACTURERS!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAH!

or maybe it's just that they think not everyone will want extended content and have to up the price to make sure that they don't make a loss.

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Since I advertise CoN there I think it's only fair that I advertise The Wiki here.

Quote (R8.50 Mango @ 9th July 2009 13:24)

or maybe it's just that they think not everyone will want extended content and have to up the price to make sure that they don't make a loss.

I keep on hearing that comment, but I think that anybody would want more content. However, I do agree with this one, and any other post that might've made the same argument that I missed or am to lazy to read. It's really made me think about the entire argument and the real trouble in the industry that I think it represents.

It's not that they don't want to make more content and have longer development times, it's that they can't afford to waste time making all of that material.

Why? Well I think it shows the state of the industry. When you look at the development times of many movies, they can last for years or perhaps decades. However, game companies, in order to keep an income and profit off of their franchises, have to continue making games.

I said this on another topic a while back, why do you think there are so many sequels in the industry? Every game if succesful will have a sequel, prequel, or spinoff. And that is because the lack of a universal system to play games. The film industry has DVDs, and it will be the major format until another format comes along that is better.

But, for games, consoles have a short lifespan. No one makes the SNES, NES or PS1 anymore, so the games that were made then no longer are turning profit. Therefore, the only way that Square Enix can profit off of its older games is to? Re-release them. FFVI on the GBA, FFIV on the GBA and DS, and now FFVII on the Playstation Network.

So if you follow my crazy line of thought, you can see the economical problem that exists and how it affects the industry. Companies are forced to find a succesful franchise, and then make new games and content for it. Then they must find a way to capitalize on their classic games.

So, what I'm saying is, I don't think they have enough time or money to focus on special features.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 9th July 2009 20:28)

But, for games, consoles have a short lifespan. No one makes the SNES, NES or PS1 anymore, so the games that were made then no longer are turning profit. Therefore, the only way that Square Enix can profit off of its older games is to? Re-release them. FFVI on the GBA, FFIV on the GBA and DS, and now FFVII on the Playstation Network.

This is actually not true. There are companies that do make new versions of the older systems (FC, Factor 5, etc), as many of you already know. The reason that the games are no longer made is not because of the lack of availability of the consoles or lack of interest. It is because of some copyright and possession issues regarding the games. A lot of the companies that made those older games no longer exist in the same form, like Quintet for example. Some of these merged with other big companies (Squenix, for one) or were just disbanded in general. Either way, when this happened the games could basically never be made again since nobody could claim rights to it. In some other cases, the rights to the game had been sold off to private individuals or parties, which case it can never be released as a SNES cart again.

Although I have not really looked online for more information, I have received the above info from multiple credible sources. The carts can't be reproduced because there is essentially nobody with rights to them anymore.

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Is PJ

That's not what I am talking about. Yeah, they make old systems and games, but do they mass-produce those? Can you find them in the Walmart gaming section. Can you also find VHS tapes? No, because they switched everything over to DVD, but they can't do that for games, because there are different controllers etc. But anyways, I have created a new topic for this issue called "An Industry Problem." So, I might shut this one down.

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Praise Be To Helix!