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Rank #6: Summonners
As they are a major threat to everybody else at the same time, with little-to-no aiming, I find it most likely that they'll be taken out first, but not before dealing some major damage.

Rank #5: Black Mages
Terra deals a hellish lot of damage when Morphed, but also attracts attention. So will any casting of Ultima or Doomsday. Therefore this group will receive the same treatment as the Summonners.

Rank #4: Heroes
They're good and strong, but not too resistant and shortly after the "AOE threats" have been eliminated, they'll just wear out.

Rank #3: White Mages
Their survivability brings them this far, but their only offensive abilities are Rosa's bow skill and the Holy/Pearl which consumes a considerable amount of magic energy.

Rank #2: Brawlers
Yes, I call them Brawlers. It's what they do, brawling. They make it second, since they have high agility, all three of them are heavy hitters and disciplined warriors. Also, Sabin's and Amarant's healing skills are a factor.

Rank #1: Dragoons
The Dragoons/Lancers win. Speed, agility, tactical skill and precision striking. The ability to quickly dispatch priority targets while staying out of harm's way gives it to the Dragoons.

I initially intended to write an epic here, but I got tired around killing off half the characters so let me just state one thing: not even the winning team survives in 100%. At least one of them is bound to die.

Edit

Sweetdude, I find your reasoning about the difference between the Heroes and Brawlers a non-point, because this is a six-team-free-for-all, not a team-vs-team. Think priority targets and scramble tactics.

Also, I imagine this battle starting with a huge AOE from the Summonners. I think it looks awesome.

This post has been edited by SilverMaduin on 24th July 2009 12:27

--------------------

"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 23rd July 2009 22:16)

Sweetdude, I find your reasoning about the difference between the Heroes and Brawlers a non-point, because this is a six-team-free-for-all, not a team-vs-team. Think priority targets and scramble tactics.

It is a point because I imagine the magicians will be killed off by the physicals early. You won't see Sabin fighting Cloud when both of them make easy targets for mages or summons. That's why the final decider will be between Heroes, Lancers and Powerhouses, and that's why it's important to match them up. And scrambling is an easy way to be killed, so it won't happen. If Vivi or Yuna broke off from the group they'd be picked off by the Lancers or the Heroes without any response from their team-mates.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Edit

My fault, sorry.

This post has been edited by sweetdude on 23rd July 2009 21:44

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Okay, I used a wrong word. It's not a non-point, since this is about who will win the fight, so individual differences in fighting skill are to be taken into consideration, but I don't think a single difference between two of the six teams will make much difference, even if we consider your description of events, since it'll be a three-way skirmish and the ability to survive will be more important than the ability to kill.

Quote (sweetdude @ 23rd July 2009 23:43)

And scrambling is an easy way to be killed, so it won't happen. If Vivi or Yuna broke off from the group they'd be picked off by the Lancers or the Heroes without any response from their team-mates.

The casters' strength, especially the Summonners', lies indeed in coordinated and concentrated use of their powers. The physicals however, may want to scramble, to make the most of their maneuverability and individual fighting skill, especially, since any of them can take on an entire trio of casters at poin-blank range and win.

This post has been edited by SilverMaduin on 23rd July 2009 22:32

--------------------

"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 23rd July 2009 21:16)

Rank #5: Black Mages
Terra deals a hellish lot of damage when Morphed, but also attracts attention. So will any casting of Ultima or Doomsday. Therefore this group will receive the same treatment as the Summonners.

They may attract attention but doesn't that mean more targets for drain? Drain is a great offensive and healing spell, with enough intelligence it can be used wonderfully and add longevity to the black mages.

however I agree dragoons would definetly win because they can both avoid other melee fighters attacks with jump and they hit like a train.

This post has been edited by Messier17 on 23rd July 2009 23:07

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If god is all-forgiving then why do we have to kill people in his name?

Quote (sweetdude @ 23rd July 2009 14:51)

The Powerhouses' healing is pretty much inconsequential to the massive damage that the Heroes' attacks inflict. Even Auto-Life would only allow them to survive one Limit. We're talking three strong individual physical attacks and three extremely powerful special attacks.

I'm not saying that the Heroes can tank all the damage, but that they can sustain a good deal of damage and have the speed and evasion to make up for what they lack in health. The other teams have strengths and weaknesses: the Mages and Summoners have poor health, the Lancers are vulnerable when they're not on the move, and the Powerhouses are slow and weak to ranged attacks or magic. The Heroes, in contrast, have no weaknesses other than a lack of healing, and they can make up for that by giving out a great deal more punishment than they receive.

Yes, but once again, Bum Rush can do the exact same amount of damage as Omnislash; They both do 9,999. And Sabin can use it before Cloud can, and Amarant could put regen and Auto-Life on him before Cloud could use his all powerful attack. Sabin would take him out in 1 to 2 turns and they would lose.

I'll say it again, Phantom Rush is just as powerful as Omnislash. You're telling me that Cloud will dodge that move every time?

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 23rd July 2009 18:51)

Yes, but once again, Bum Rush can do the exact same amount of damage as Omnislash; They both do 9,999. And Sabin can use it before Cloud can, and Amarant could put regen and Auto-Life on him before Cloud could use his all powerful attack. Sabin would take him out in 1 to 2 turns and they would lose.

I'll say it again, Phantom Rush is just as powerful as Omnislash. You're telling me that Cloud will dodge that move every time?

Omnislash is a 15-hit assault, capable of doing 9999 damage each strike, which may also strike more than one target, potentially striking 15 different targets all in one rush. I don't think Phantom Rush can touch that kind of devastation. His partner Squall can do an even larger assault with Rezokuken + Lionheart finisher. Zidane can pull 9999 on several targets at once with Grand Lethal. That is an extremely lethal team.

Oh, I didn't know that. I haven't played much of FFVII yet. Tell me, does Cloud, Zidane, or Squall have the ability w/o magic to caste regen or Auto-Life? Let's say Sabin gets hit by that 15-hit assault and dies. Then, he comes back, and attacks Cloud with Bum Rush. Even if he doesn't do 9999 damage, Cloud can't recover, and will only last a couple rounds. Am I wrong?

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 24th July 2009 07:23)

Oh, I didn't know that. I haven't played much of FFVII yet. Tell me, does Cloud, Zidane, or Squall have the ability w/o magic to caste regen or Auto-Life? Let's say Sabin gets hit by that 15-hit assault and dies. Then, he comes back, and attacks Cloud with Bum Rush. Even if he doesn't do 9999 damage, Cloud can't recover, and will only last a couple rounds. Am I wrong?

What I'm saying is that the Heroes won't allow them to recover. If all three Powerhouses die from Omnislash or Renzokuken, and all three had Auto-Life, they'd be brought back to life with very low health. By that time the Heroes could be waiting for them and finish them off with normal attacks when they revive. The Powerhouses are strong but slow so they won't have the time to escape.

Also, Renzokuken is more of an issue here than Omnislash. Once Squall has critical health he's able to use it whenever he likes. At 9999 HP, critical health is anything below 2500. The question isn't who has a stronger attack because it's clearly the Heroes. The question is who will get the attack in first and will the Heroes get their Limit Breaks. The Heroes have greater speed and evasion than the Powerhouses so I think it's safe to assume that they'll strike first. And also take into account that Omnislash and Renzokuken/Lionheart are extremely fast attacks, so they won't sustain any damage while using them.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (sweetdude @ 24th July 2009 10:05)

Quote (BlitzSage @ 24th July 2009 07:23)

Oh, I didn't know that. I haven't played much of FFVII yet. Tell me, does Cloud, Zidane, or Squall have the ability w/o magic to caste regen or Auto-Life? Let's say Sabin gets hit by that 15-hit assault and dies. Then, he comes back, and attacks Cloud with Bum Rush. Even if he doesn't do 9999 damage, Cloud can't recover, and will only last a couple rounds. Am I wrong?

What I'm saying is that the Heroes won't allow them to recover. If all three Powerhouses die from Omnislash or Renzokuken, and all three had Auto-Life, they'd be brought back to life with very low health. By that time the Heroes could be waiting for them and finish them off with normal attacks when they revive. The Powerhouses are strong but slow so they won't have the time to escape.

Also, Renzokuken is more of an issue here than Omnislash. Once Squall has critical health he's able to use it whenever he likes. At 9999 HP, critical health is anything below 2500. The question isn't who has a stronger attack because it's clearly the Heroes. The question is who will get the attack in first and will the Heroes get their Limit Breaks. The Heroes have greater speed and evasion than the Powerhouses so I think it's safe to assume that they'll strike first. And also take into account that Omnislash and Renzokuken/Lionheart are extremely fast attacks, so they won't sustain any damage while using them.

I'd like both of you to remember, that this ISN'T an RPG-style battle, so counting HP is a non-point, and that no team would be stupid enough to go all out before it's just the other team there, since they can get flanked at any time.

But for the sake of discussing your point, let's say that we're down to Brawlers and Heroes. Everybody's a bit worn out, so the Heroes will probably be almost ready to use their limits, but the key word is almost. You see, to be one of the last two teams standing, they'd have needed to use Limit Breaks and Trance at least once. The point is that Sabin uses Phantom Rush at will, and Yang's kick is a multi-hitter that can throw the Heroes off-pace. Also, while most of the Heroes' attacks are lethal and the Brawlers' only near-lethal, at this point, the "near" gets removed and Squall won't get his free Limit Breaks, because he'll die.

Also, the Brawlers are much more agile and have a great advantage at close quarters.

--------------------

"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 24th July 2009 11:09)

I'd like both of you to remember, that this ISN'T an RPG-style battle, so counting HP is a non-point, and that no team would be stupid enough to go all out before it's just the other team there, since they can get flanked at any time.

But for the sake of discussing your point, let's say that we're down to Brawlers and Heroes. Everybody's a bit worn out, so the Heroes will probably be almost ready to use their limits, but the key word is almost. You see, to be one of the last two teams standing, they'd have needed to use Limit Breaks and Trance at least once. The point is that Sabin uses Phantom Rush at will, and Yang's kick is a multi-hitter that can throw the Heroes off-pace. Also, while most of the Heroes' attacks are lethal and the Brawlers' only near-lethal, at this point, the "near" gets removed and Squall won't get his free Limit Breaks, because he'll die.

Also, the Brawlers are much more agile and have a great advantage at close quarters.

Of course it's not an RPG-style battle, we've not given any reason to assume so. BlitzSage even made it clear in his first post that ATBs and Items are discounted. Damage and health is determined by numbers in the FF games so we have to take that into consideration, otherwise how are we to know how strong an attack is?

Moving on, I don't think the Powerhouses are more agile. Who's quicker on his feet than the little thief Zidane? And if you think about the pace of Omnislash and Renzokuken, they'd be scoring multiple hits before a Powerhouse can even swing a punch. Cloud and Squall jump higher than the Lancers in both instances.

Edit

For SilverMaduin below, Squall knocks them into the sky then jumps up with them and fights them while walking on air. Cloud, forgetting AC which makes him even more powerful, jumps into the air for what looks like a final Braver at the end.

And quick on his feet does mean that he can dodge an attacker or hit accurately in my book. Zidane is great at evading attacks.

Even if they've only used their Limit Breaks once, that's 15 hits from Omnislash, a Trance Zidane who's more powerful than anyone on the field except possibly Morphed Terra, and Renzokuken and Lionheart add up to between 20-22 hits. There's no way anyone would be left alive after that. The question is will they get the opportunity, and I argue yes because of their reasonably high health, speed and evasion.

This post has been edited by sweetdude on 24th July 2009 12:08

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Agility does NOT equal speed. The fact that someone is quick on their feet doesn't mean he's an accurate attacker, nor does it mean that he can quickly adjust his swing to hit a dodging enemy, or dodge an attack like Phantom Rush effectively. The Brawlers need to get into elbow-hitting range, but when they do, the Heroes are toast.
And if the range is to great to cover before the Omnislash or Renzokuken? Aura Bolt does the job of disrupting those, followed by a Kick from Yang and then enter Trance Amarant, since we're talking that. Also, Sabin has AOEs for a multi-group skirmish.
Also, I understand where you get Cloud "superhuman jumping" from - AC, but Squall?

Oh, I missed a case to address

Quote (Messier17 @ 24th July 2009 01:06)

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 23rd July 2009 21:16)

Rank #5: Black Mages
Terra deals a hellish lot of damage when Morphed, but also attracts attention. So will any casting of Ultima or Doomsday. Therefore this group will receive the same treatment as the Summonners.

They may attract attention but doesn't that mean more targets for drain? Drain is a great offensive and healing spell, with enough intelligence it can be used wonderfully and add longevity to the black mages.

The weak point here is that drain is a very SLOW healing method and weak offensive. All three mages would have to concentrate their drain on a single target to deal noticable damage and still would heal slowly. And employing this tactic in anything but the "endgame" of this battle is a very bad idea.

This post has been edited by SilverMaduin on 24th July 2009 16:19

--------------------

"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Quote (sweetdude @ 23rd July 2009 20:05)

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 23rd July 2009 20:28)

The real dangers is not the regular attacks of people like squall and cloud and zidane,their powerfull attacks are their limit breaks.

Zidane has a few abilities to reduce speed and other kinds of stuff but cloud and squall don't,the only thing that is dangerous is if squall somehow survives a attack like if the white mages attack him and lower his health enough that he can use zensuken or whatever its called and then the oponents are doomed.

Even if the heroes all have auto life,they won't survive 2 rounds of ultima on the whole team and if its not reflectable that means instant death to the whole team,the team would do best job against kain's team due to the fact that kain's team is one of the most lacking except for him who is the most dangerous.

Their physical attacks are strong and accurate enough to kill the Mages and Summoners, however.

The Heroes can get their Limit Breaks from any of the five other groups. Ultima, in FFIX, reduces a character to 1HP, perfect for Limit Breaks. Ultima is also very expensive so they wouldn't want to waste it early. Less costly magic would further charge the Limits. The Lancers have a good attack but would have to be extremely well co-ordinated to land three hits in succession onto a Hero, and even then it might not kill them but leave them with a Limit Break to counterattack with, especially if the Hero attacked is using Defend. The Powerhouses will only be able to hit for so long before instigating a Limit Break. I doubt they'd be able to land a one-hit wonder on anyone other than the magicians.

On your last point, like I said before, I doubt the Black Mages would want to waste all their MP on Ultima considering they've got a long fight ahead. Against fifteen opponents they can't just fire two off against one group while being lashed at by the Lancers. They'd need to keep the faster groups at bay with their MP. I'd imagine that the magicians would be on the defensive for the entire fight that they survive.

It depends also on wich ff you play.

In ff7 and ff6 ultima can do 9999 dmg to the whole team and i cannot remember ff9 using ultima.

Also they got 999 mana the spell casters and also,the regular attacks i did good dmg but nowhere near as much as for an example the amount i did for every turn in ff9 as i did with vivi,also quina would be a bitch to kill,literally in a sense that quina can use white wind and heal the whole team,only downfall is that if you got 1 hp on her? it will heal very little.

But also flare does massive dmg and if your high leveled it will do more than enough to kill off plus doom= instant death if casted on a character.

casters as stated before don't need to wait till their limit break to use their devastating moves,they can use them before.

Also mana cost on ultima is cheaper than the most expensive summon and you didn't include if the characters have mega elexirs or even turbo ethers,if no turbo ethers or anything alike or relics then its a diferent story and the fight will be tougher for all.The team of heroes simply lack a healer in order to survive,in a fight against tough bosses they wouldn't survive due to lack of healing,they got great firepower but 0 healing and they are more tanks than actuall damage dealers,if you had said for an example steiner who has stock breaker and techs like that that he can use every turn and after that his regular hit would devastate,i would say makes sense,but they got to wait till they are almost dead to use limit breaks and that is cutting it close.

also want to response to maduin:

The Dragoons/Lancers win. Speed, agility, tactical skill and precision striking. The ability to quickly dispatch priority targets while staying out of harm's way gives it to the Dragoons.


The dragoon kain is deadliest of all the lancers,he would easily pick off any characters and in ff4 i always survive with him because he avoids odin's attack,he is also way more powerfull than cecil and even during the game,even at the very end he is overpowering in comparison to edge and cecil with his killer jump,he doesn't need to use any items or mana and 1 jump=instant death to any character without protect.

Chakra is very usefull and cid highwind will only be dangerous if he gets his limit break,otherwise he doesn't have any other attacks except normal attack.

There is just one major problem,cid highwind is not very usefull in this fight,freya would probably give a bit more problems but cid highwind would pose threat only if he gets his limit break.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 24th July 2009 12:46

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

The monks are going to be tricky foes to defeat, I won't argue that. They are my favorite Final Fantasy class, after all

Thing is, if Cloud uses Omnislash he's going to spread that damage around, not focus it on one opponent, and since we're not going by ATB rules, then anyone with auto-life will revive before Omnislash is over, allowing Cloud to finish them off for good. By the time the heroes have taken enough damage to use their limits there will have already been losses by other teams that have heavy firepower and less vitality, which means less damage that the heroes have to spread around, which means greater devastation to those still in the fight. Cloud, Squall, and Zidane are from an era of RPGs when the main hero was brokenly powerful on an epic scale compared to the other characters, and that will probably show here.

On the topic of Sabin's blitzes, the only thing keeping him from abusing them with no drawback was the ability of the player to input the special commands. So how would that translate into something like this? I'd say he needs a certain amount of concentration to pull off these astounding feats, something he may not always have when he has swords and explosions coming in from all sides.

By the way, here's how I think the fight would go down:

The lancers immediately take to the skies, leaping out of reach while hoping to take out at least one person a piece. The white mages begin buffing themselves with things like Protect, Shell, and Reflect. The monks and heroes assign two of their members to watch the sky for the lancers, and one to watch the other teams on the ground. The summoners begin choosing which spells to summon, while also keeping a wary eye on their surroundings. And the black mages...well, the black mages open fire, blowing the lancers out of the sky. Stunned out of their Jump mode, they plummet to the ground defeated. The black mages then turn their attention to the other physical fighters, knowing they need to take them out quickly, and let loose another barrage, but both teams of fighters dart behind the white mages, whose Reflect spells bounce the nukes back on the black mages, and an oppurtunistic Amarant finishes them with a trio of shurikens. It's at this point that the summoners, seeing all of their foes in nearly one place, let loose their first wave, devastating the other three teams left standing, but have just made themselves a huge target, and are quickly wiped out before they can conjure up another round of summons. This, in my mind, is where it ends, because the heroes now have their limits/trance charged, and it's simply more than enough to completely destroy the remaining two teams, even with their healing and buffs.

#6. Lancers
#5. Black Mages
#4. Summoners
#3. Monks
#2. White Mages
#1. The Heroes

Quote (Ruin's Fate @ 24th July 2009 20:33)

The lancers immediately take to the skies, leaping out of reach while hoping to take out at least one person a piece. The white mages begin buffing themselves with things like Protect, Shell, and Reflect. The monks and heroes assign two of their members to watch the sky for the lancers, and one to watch the other teams on the ground. The summoners begin choosing which spells to summon, while also keeping a wary eye on their surroundings. And the black mages...well, the black mages open fire, blowing the lancers out of the sky. Stunned out of their Jump mode, they plummet to the ground defeated. The black mages then turn their attention to the other physical fighters, knowing they need to take them out quickly, and let loose another barrage, but both teams of fighters dart behind the white mages, whose Reflect spells bounce the nukes back on the black mages, and an oppurtunistic Amarant finishes them with a trio of shurikens. It's at this point that the summoners, seeing all of their foes in nearly one place, let loose their first wave, devastating the other three teams left standing, but have just made themselves a huge target, and are quickly wiped out before they can conjure up another round of summons. This, in my mind, is where it ends, because the heroes now have their limits/trance charged, and it's simply more than enough to completely destroy the remaining two teams, even with their healing and buffs.

While I appreciate you unfolding this scenario for us, I have to say I strongly disagree with your reasoning here, or rather, I'd like to point a flaw in it:
You take every team as a three-headed entity, and neglect both all the individual abilities and personalities of all combatants. The reason why I didn't write out EXACTLY how I see this battle, was that I described individual actions most of the time and so I quit halfway through the battle.

I disagree with the BMs blasting the Dragoons out of the sky, because aiming to the sky would mean lowering their guard against EVERYTHING ELSE. A suicidal move. Both Heroes and Brawlers would rather charge into battle, rapid movement being the best method to avoid being lanced and close combat the surest way to take out the Mages. Summonners are also much more aggressive casters and three Bahamuts aren't really something easy to shake down. These girls either go down first or not at all.

--------------------

"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 24th July 2009 19:10)

Quote (Ruin's Fate @ 24th July 2009 20:33)

The lancers immediately take to the skies, leaping out of reach while hoping to take out at least one person a piece. The white mages begin buffing themselves with things like Protect, Shell, and Reflect. The monks and heroes assign two of their members to watch the sky for the lancers, and one to watch the other teams on the ground. The summoners begin choosing which spells to summon, while also keeping a wary eye on their surroundings. And the black mages...well, the black mages open fire, blowing the lancers out of the sky. Stunned out of their Jump mode, they plummet to the ground defeated. The black mages then turn their attention to the other physical fighters, knowing they need to take them out quickly, and let loose another barrage, but both teams of fighters dart behind the white mages, whose Reflect spells bounce the nukes back on the black mages, and an oppurtunistic Amarant finishes them with a trio of shurikens. It's at this point that the summoners, seeing all of their foes in nearly one place, let loose their first wave, devastating the other three teams left standing, but have just made themselves a huge target, and are quickly wiped out before they can conjure up another round of summons. This, in my mind, is where it ends, because the heroes now have their limits/trance charged, and it's simply more than enough to completely destroy the remaining two teams, even with their healing and buffs.

While I appreciate you unfolding this scenario for us, I have to say I strongly disagree with your reasoning here, or rather, I'd like to point a flaw in it:
You take every team as a three-headed entity, and neglect both all the individual abilities and personalities of all combatants. The reason why I didn't write out EXACTLY how I see this battle, was that I described individual actions most of the time and so I quit halfway through the battle.

I disagree with the BMs blasting the Dragoons out of the sky, because aiming to the sky would mean lowering their guard against EVERYTHING ELSE. A suicidal move. Both Heroes and Brawlers would rather charge into battle, rapid movement being the best method to avoid being lanced and close combat the surest way to take out the Mages. Summonners are also much more aggressive casters and three Bahamuts aren't really something easy to shake down. These girls either go down first or not at all.

The heroes would be nuked to death by the mages before they even got close enough,i can just imagine a black mage casting meteor and the irony of a meteor falling ontop of cloud and crushing him to death.
Just imagine the irony of cloud:Oh no not another meteor,BAAAAAM!!
As for the others,a well placed dragoon like kain can pick off the heroes 1 by 1 and make very good attackers against spell casters but are no match against the awesom power of odin or of course bahamut.

Another thing to add:in order for the heroes to kill anybody,they have to be within range and the rules say it doesn't necessarily mean fights apply in turns right? what if its like mmorpg pvp styles? If so,monks and lancers would have advantages over casters and casters would have advantage of not wearing heavy armor wich weights them down,and generally speaking monks are very agile right?

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 24th July 2009 19:25

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

It's certainly not a perfect view, I'll give you that Maduin. But the dragoons took the first move in my scenario, and a deadly first move at that, so everyone had to react accordingly. The black mages not taking out the dragoons at the start is no less suicidal than leaving them to their devices, as the dragoons came out on top in your description. In a more individualistic approach, Zidane would sneak about on the outskirts of the battlefield unnoticed and back stab a good number of people before someone with a keen eye, likely one of the monks or dragoons, notices it, but that may not happen with Cloud and Squall wreaking havoc. So then the heroes still stand a good chance of winning.

Really the most major flaw was the one with the summoners. As you've said, if they can summon Bahamut then either they win by default or they're the first to get slayed in a mad rush to take them down.

In 6th Place...
Summoners!
Their defense just isn't strong enough, and most of the other parties have enough defense to survive the one-hit summon.

In 5th Place...
White Mages!
They have the survivability card, but the defense is still too low! While Rosa does still posses the hast ability, that only elongates her life span: the white mages simply can't hit back.

In 4th Place...
Lancers!
While the lancer is certainly useful, this battle does not particularly play to his strengths. He doesn't have the attack power of any of the remaining groups, and, while their defense is useful in getting them this far, the black mages' powerful attacks will be able to overwhelm it.

In 3rd Place...
Black Mages!
Ok, so they barely snuck by the Lancers. After all that, their health is terribly low and they drop out almost immediately. While they do have the massive attacks necessary to beat out most enemies, they simply don't have the defensive power necessary to ensure their longevity.

In 2nd Place...
Brawlers!
The Brawlers have speed, strength and fair armor attributes that have made them a big factor in beating out the previous teams and surviving this far.

In 1st Place...
Heroes!
The Heroes are, overall, stronger than the brawlers. While they aren't quite as quick, they also posses those devasting limit breaks. They aren't tanks either, so the Heroes should have no problem hitting their marks.

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

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This is one seriously complex battle. Let me just say that I love it.
Obviously, any assessment of this nature is going to be personal, subjective opinion (especially as it pertains to tactical choices); mine is no different.

6)Summoners. Yes, they all pack a serious punch, but they also eat up massive amounts of MP with no method of MP restoration. Also, these particular summoners only have access to Asura for healing. Bye bye, summoners.

5)Black Mages. Like the summoners, they pack a serious punch. Unlike their summoner counterparts, they have some level of HP/MP restoration through Drain/Osmose. However, such restoration is sketchy and inefficient at best.

4)Lancers. While Jump does make one immune to damage, only one of the lancers actually has consistent access to this ability. Cid may survive a while due to his ability to equip the HP Absorb--Double Cut materia combo, but Kimahri is fairly useless, overall.

3)Heroes. With Junctioning, Squall is an above average character, but with no way to revive him, he'll likely take out one other character when he's got low HP and then be dispatched himself. Cloud has above average stats, HP Absorb--Double Cut Materia, and will get off one or more Omnislashes. Zidane can utilize Annoy, which will make it so opponents spread damage they've taken to other party members, a serious threat to many of the teams without access to heals.

2)Martial Artists. Yang can use Cover Counter to protect Amarant while he uses Aura (the only ability in the match which provides Auto-Life). Amarant can then use Aura on Yang or Sabin to give them the same benefit (or Revive on one of them if they've died), allowing them to 'hang back,' so to speak, as the other teams rip a few new ones. And, if there is any period of respite, each is capable of doing some hefty damage (Yang using Focus, then regular attack for double damage, Sabin spamming Bum Rush, and Amarant using Throw)

1)White Mages. They have excellent defensive capabilities with spells like Shell and Protect (better yet, Wall), Esuna (and its ilk), and Shield (short-term invulnerability) in Aeris' case, Raise spells, etc. Although they cannot preemptively raise themselves (like Amarant, the only one in this bout who can), with access to all those others, they are still a serious threat using Holy. The real reason I give the match to them is due to Great Gospel. With five other teams in operation at the same time, there is a very strong possibility Aeris will be able to use her limit break. With full restoration and immunity, they will then be able to remove the other teams.

Quote (sweetdude @ 24th July 2009 04:05)

What I'm saying is that the Heroes won't allow them to recover. If all three Powerhouses die from Omnislash or Renzokuken, and all three had Auto-Life, they'd be brought back to life with very low health. By that time the Heroes could be waiting for them and finish them off with normal attacks when they revive. The Powerhouses are strong but slow so they won't have the time to escape.

Also, Renzokuken is more of an issue here than Omnislash. Once Squall has critical health he's able to use it whenever he likes. At 9999 HP, critical health is anything below 2500. The question isn't who has a stronger attack because it's clearly the Heroes. The question is who will get the attack in first and will the Heroes get their Limit Breaks. The Heroes have greater speed and evasion than the Powerhouses so I think it's safe to assume that they'll strike first. And also take into account that Omnislash and Renzokuken/Lionheart are extremely fast attacks, so they won't sustain any damage while using them.

You underestimate the Powerhouses's quickness, or you overestimate the Heroes's speed. Perhaps you are doing both. But the latter implies that the Heroes will just dodge every attack they do.

No forget that. It doesn't matter how many times they dodge it, because here's the truth: if they are hit, they're out in one hit.

You think Squall will last until 2500? I keep on saying Bum Rush, but that's because you guys simply don't get it. Guess what? If Sabin's level 99, it does 9999 too. There won't be any 2500.

Here's how it could play out.

The Powerhouses start out in a defensive pattern. Amarant and Yang don't attack; they know not to fill up their limit breaks or overdrives.

Yang uses Brace to raise his defense, and Amarant uses Aura on Sabin.

Then they attack. Sabin uses Phantom Rush, and if I am right, Bum Rush hits Cloud for 9999. Game over for him. And if it does that kind of damage, he can repeat it for the rest of the team.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 25th July 2009 06:08)

You underestimate the Powerhouses's quickness, or you overestimate the Heroes's speed. Perhaps you are doing both. But the latter implies that the Heroes will just dodge every attack they do.

No forget that. It doesn't matter how many times they dodge it, because here's the truth: if they are hit, they're out in one hit.

You think Squall will last until 2500? I keep on saying Bum Rush, but that's because you guys simply don't get it. Guess what? If Sabin's level 99, it does 9999 too. There won't be any 2500.

Here's how it could play out.

The Powerhouses start out in a defensive pattern. Amarant and Yang don't attack; they know not to fill up their limit breaks or overdrives.

Yang uses Brace to raise his defense, and Amarant uses Aura on Sabin.

Then they attack. Sabin uses Phantom Rush, and if I am right, Bum Rush hits Cloud for 9999. Game over for him. And if it does that kind of damage, he can repeat it for the rest of the team.

The Powerhouses aren't fast, are they? Sabin and Amarant were always the slow ones in my team, I can't remember enough about Yang but I'm sure he was the same.

Bum's Rush could do 9999 but if Squall is using Defend it takes off 0. Sabin is therefore left vulnerable and Zidane and Cloud can cut him down. Or, in the events I described before, the Heroes are faster and can therefore attack first and prevent him the opportunity. I understand you rate it highly as an attack, but at level 99 Kain can be doing 9999 in a Jump as well without any chance of failure, or Squall, Cloud and Zidane can be doing that in their standard attack. Hey, I even had Yuna doing 99,999 damage in her physical attack because I took her down Auron's sphere path to enhance Bahamut.

There has to be a practical line drawn. I agree that Summons really would work like nuclear bombs, that's believable. But to say that Sabin, Kain or Yuna can jump in and kill somebody instantly with a physical attack is not so believable. A Limit Break or Trance that has to charge first is understandably more powerful than a simple attack that a character can do at any time. This is obviously just my opinion, but I think it's a better way of looking at WNF.

The Powerhouses are weak to ranged attacks in the beginning as well. Magic, Summons, Bows and Jump will damage them enough to be of no threat at the end. Remember that Sabin is not a calm and collected tactical fighter. Think about his diving into the water after Ultros. He's going to get himself 3v1 killed by any of the other teams, even the White Mages. Amarant, who is supposedly reformed to appreciate team-work, is still likely to seek out his own fights rather than with his team. That's why I put the Powerhouses at #3 and the Lancers at #2.

Edit

Oh, and remember that Zidane did beat Amarant in a heads-up battle in FFIX.

This post has been edited by sweetdude on 25th July 2009 12:17

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (sweetdude @ 25th July 2009 12:00)

Quote (BlitzSage @ 25th July 2009 06:08)

You underestimate the Powerhouses's quickness, or you overestimate the Heroes's speed. Perhaps you are doing both. But the latter implies that the Heroes will just dodge every attack they do.

No forget that. It doesn't matter how many times they dodge it, because here's the truth: if they are hit, they're out in one hit.

You think Squall will last until 2500? I keep on saying Bum Rush, but that's because you guys simply don't get it. Guess what? If Sabin's level 99, it does 9999 too. There won't be any 2500.

Here's how it could play out.

The Powerhouses start out in a defensive pattern. Amarant and Yang don't attack; they know not to fill up their limit breaks or overdrives.

Yang uses Brace to raise his defense, and Amarant uses Aura on Sabin.

Then they attack. Sabin uses Phantom Rush, and if I am right, Bum Rush hits Cloud for 9999. Game over for him. And if it does that kind of damage, he can repeat it for the rest of the team.

The Powerhouses aren't fast, are they? Sabin and Amarant were always the slow ones in my team, I can't remember enough about Yang but I'm sure he was the same.

Bum's Rush could do 9999 but if Squall is using Defend it takes off 0. Sabin is therefore left vulnerable and Zidane and Cloud can cut him down. Or, in the events I described before, the Heroes are faster and can therefore attack first and prevent him the opportunity. I understand you rate it highly as an attack, but at level 99 Kain can be doing 9999 in a Jump as well without any chance of failure, or Squall, Cloud and Zidane can be doing that in their standard attack. Hey, I even had Yuna doing 99,999 damage in her physical attack because I took her down Auron's sphere path to enhance Bahamut.

There has to be a practical line drawn. I agree that Summons really would work like nuclear bombs, that's believable. But to say that Sabin, Kain or Yuna can jump in and kill somebody instantly with a physical attack is not so believable. A Limit Break or Trance that has to charge first is understandably more powerful than a simple attack that a character can do at any time. This is obviously just my opinion, but I think it's a better way of looking at WNF.

The Powerhouses are weak to ranged attacks in the beginning as well. Magic, Summons, Bows and Jump will damage them enough to be of no threat at the end. Remember that Sabin is not a calm and collected tactical fighter. Think about his diving into the water after Ultros. He's going to get himself 3v1 killed by any of the other teams, even the White Mages. Amarant, who is supposedly reformed to appreciate team-work, is still likely to seek out his own fights rather than with his team. That's why I put the Powerhouses at #3 and the Lancers at #2.

Edit

Oh, and remember that Zidane did beat Amarant in a heads-up battle in FFIX.

Interesting point.

Wouldn't zidane be faster than both squall and cloud'

I mean he was always pretty fast and he is a theif by nature and thieves are speed based in order to be good thieves they must be quite nimble.


Sabim maybe a muscle head but neither cloud nor squall have ways to cast spells like protect or safe or shell.

Also who is to say that sabim doesn't have spells? you can learn spells with all characters in ff6 and in ff10 you can change spheres,so what if um yuna takes the sphere of one of the other characters? she could get some pretty dangerous spells that lulu has,or maybe auron or maybe

Also to blitzsage:

What if cloud can cast? even if he isnt' a pure caster he can learn all spells,its not like ff4 where certain classes get all the spells,in fact even squall can have magics.

Let's say this,sabim is unprepared and cloud says haha i got the laugh now and casts on himself safe and so does squall,but unfortunately in ff9 the magic is based on class like old games,but at least he is quite nimble and will probably strike before cloud or squall right sweetdude?

It is also true that after that one of the 2:either squall or cloud can cast heal or life2 on one of the fallen characters while the other casts haste

Sabim might also be armed with magic and so might cid highwind,unfortunately kain is not,but he does not need magic as his attacks will do 10k by the time your level 50.

If there was no limit to damage,i could imagine kain doing 20k or more at lvl 99,because GODAMM!! he hits really hard.

Same could be said about edge with his magic shurikens,only reason he does 9999 is because that is the limit,who knows how hard he would hit with the magic shurikens if there was no damage limit.



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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

I don't know if you saw this part of the fight, Magitek:

Quote (Sabin @ 23rd July 2009 04:33)

Exceptions: Now pay attention, because this bit is important:

Each team only has two options: To attack physically, and use their specialized attacks.

So, Terra may be an expert white mage and ability to summon Espers, since she was classified as a Black Mage, she may only attack and use black magic.

Aeris may technically just as easily be a black mage, but in this case, all that she knows is white magic.

Cloud also obtained whatever materia he chose. But a hero never uses magic.

You get the picture.

Having said that, maybe I didn't read it enough myself. Cloud can have Materia? That pretty much settles it surely; he could use Elemental, 4x Cut, Added Effect, HP Plus, Counter-Attack and many, many others.

Cloud can heal with an HP Absorb/Deathblow combination.

I suppose the same goes for Aeris and Cid. I don't think it's enough to save the White Mages but it certainly cements the Lancers into second place ahead of the Powerhouses in my view.

This post has been edited by sweetdude on 25th July 2009 15:12

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (sweetdude @ 25th July 2009 15:05)

I don't know if you saw this part of the fight, Magitek:

Quote (Sabin @ 23rd July 2009 04:33)

Exceptions: Now pay attention, because this bit is important:

Each team only has two options: To attack physically, and use their specialized attacks.

So, Terra may be an expert white mage and ability to summon Espers, since she was classified as a Black Mage, she may only attack and use black magic.

Aeris may technically just as easily be a black mage, but in this case, all that she knows is white magic.

Cloud also obtained whatever materia he chose. But a hero never uses magic.

You get the picture.

Having said that, maybe I didn't read it enough myself. Cloud can have Materia? That pretty much settles it surely; he could use Elemental, 4x Cut, Added Effect, HP Plus, Counter-Attack and many, many others.

Cloud can heal with an HP Absorb/Deathblow combination.

I suppose the same goes for Aeris and Cid. I don't think it's enough to save the White Mages but it certainly cements the Lancers into second place ahead of the Powerhouses in my view.

the powerhouse may have sabim but cid is ok as long as he has his limibr break he is usefull and yang,because he isn't even meant to be used never gets a chance to be used at endgame so we will never know how hard his kicks are,i bet his regular hits hurt though as he has a double attack.

Also:What if,terra is equipped with a relic that makes it so it costs 0 mana to cast? such a thing does exist and it would mean she could cast as much as she wanted,also there is also the zephir cloak wich increases evasion.

For sabim he could always be using the relic that increases vigor so his attacks are stronger and he could have a zephir cloak too to add evasion.

Also.for all i know sabim might just wear a reflect ring just to avoid damage by spells like flare,but ultima cannot be reflected i think


This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 27th July 2009 10:43

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

6 Summoners
5 Heros
4 Whitemages
3 Lancers
2 Blackmages
1 Brawlers.


ACTUALLY, if I had my choice, I'd go with Lasz' team of blue mages for number 1. Summoners lack any and all defense, and I figure the Hero's and them would neutralize eachother. Next is the Whitemages, cuz, FFI proves that a team of all White Mages is a rough situation. Next goes Lancers who get sniped by Blackmages and Blitz'd by brawlers, then the BM's themselves because the Brawlers seem to have it like that- healing, offense, defense, etc.

Like I said, if the Blue Mage team was a choice, I'd take them as number 1, but as stands, that's the order.

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Is that enough suspense? Because I could go meander over here for another week if you like.

When we last left off, a large fraction of our Squenix friends were teamed according to class and pitted against each other. You voted who would take it, one through six.

For this particular match, a special points system was incorporated. All the #1 picks were given 6 points. #2 picks were given 5. #3's got 4, #4's get 3, #5's 2, and last place got 1 point.

Using this method, here is where they placed.

At #6, accruing 57 points

Lancers

#5, accruing 58 points

Summoners

#4, accruing 65 points

White Mages

#3 and #2, tied with 70 points

Black Mages and Heroes

Which makes the winner... with a total of 72 points

Powerhouses/Brawlers/Martial Artists/Monks, etc.


This fight had limitless possibilities, and really could've gone any way. In fact, it did: every single class received at least two first place votes.

And now, part 2 of this trilogy...

Having taken out the small army of the Square world's greatest warriors, the trio of brawlers stand, battered but not beaten. Suddenly, their wounds were instantly healed by some hidden benefactor. However, it was soon evident that there was nothing beneficial about it. A voice echoed out...

There is no I in team...

Three brawlers then faced each other... and knew what it meant....

In the RED Corner...



Sabin Rene Figaro

Figaro's favorite son, Sabin possesses a wealth of power from the magnificent art of Blitz. He was a crucial part of the battle against Kefka, and was instrumental in the free-for-all against the others. His clawed hands are lethal weapons that can take down anyone or anything.

Why he will win: His Blitz abilities can eliminate anyone in their tracks. Between his pummels, suplexes, and the omni powerful Phantom Rush, these skills will be the key to his success.

Why he will lose: While agile performing his moves, his evasion and speed in general is not up to par. Also, while not represented in the video game, performing the Blitz moves certainly will take a toll on his energy. Pulling off several of them in a short time span very well could leave him exhausted.


In the BLUE Corner...



Yang Fang Leiden

Master monk and leader of the fabled army of ... ... Fabul, Yang was an integral cog in the fight against Golbez. His valiance is documented, fending off threats against Fabul and even jumping into a violent ocean during Leviathan's attack. Yang is a magnificent fighter and a worthy tactician.

Why he will win: His variable claws and double-fisted attack are his greatest source of damage. Let's not forget his devastating kick. His main weapon is his monk's master of focus, able to increase the power of his attack and his defense.

Why he will lose: Unlike his opponents, Yang has the least amount of versatile skills. He's going to rely a little too much on his physical strikes, which will be easy to defend against after seeing it for some time.


In the GREEN corner...



Amarant Coral

Cutthroat assassin with a blazing red dread affro. Lanky and seemingly apathetic, Amarant is poor cold hearted. When defeated in a one-on-one against Zidane, the red blazer refused to accept until he was killed. Zidane wouldn't, and Amarant decided to follow him as a form of debt. Such strict rules work well in his area.

Why he will win: Amarant + No Mercy = pure carnage. Amarant's other special skills will be crucial to his victory as well. He's the only participant that has any curing abilities (Chakra), and is possibly the most ruthless of the trio.

Why he will lose: His apathetic nature makes him appear at a loss for focus. Also, his strength is not up to par with the other two.


Setting: Limbo.

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"When I turn the page
The corner bends into the perfect dog ear
As if the words knew I'd need them again
But at the time, I didn't see it."

~"This Ain't a Surfin' Movie" - Minus the Bear

I kind of wish that the setting were the FF6 Battle Arena, so I could wipe Sabin out by having him inexplicably use Spiraler just like he ALWAYS DOES.

Nevertheless, I really think Amarant would take this fight. Start it off with an Aura to bestow healing and auto-life, and if he gets low, combine Chakra with the Power Up ability for decent health recovery. He also showed off his agility and evade in the 1v1 duel with Zidane. Sabin would be the tougher challenger of the other two...as much as I love Yang, he really wasn't that fantastic of a fighter.

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

Quote (Neal @ 13th August 2009 09:42)

Nevertheless, I really think Amarant would take this fight. Start it off with an Aura to bestow healing and auto-life, and if he gets low, combine Chakra with the Power Up ability for decent health recovery. He also showed off his agility and evade in the 1v1 duel with Zidane. Sabin would be the tougher challenger of the other two...as much as I love Yang, he really wasn't that fantastic of a fighter.

Agreed. Aura is a game-changer in this situation. Neither of the others can hope to restore themselves. (And since we're not treating this as an actual in-game battle, regen and auto-life are incredibly useful boons.)

Well, it seemed like I was the only one fighting for the Powerhouses, so I'm suprised that they won... and glad!

The problem with this fight is that we don't know exactly how the previous epic fight played out, so I would assume that it was a very difficult fight. That would mean that anyone who has MP (like Amarant) would have been depleted.

You both point out the healing powers of Amarant, and I pointed out that that would be a deciding factor in the previous battle. Now, it will be a disadvantage for him, because in that fight he would've cast Aura on both Yang and Sabin. And because this is a continuing fight those effects would continue.

With that advantage gone, it all comes down to the "powerhouse" aspect. And for the end of the fight, when there is really one left standing, it has to be the one that led them to victory: Sabin. He has more power than Yang and Amarant.

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Praise Be To Helix!

I like this fight a lot because you could take it in a bunch of different ways. Sabin and Yang have to be smart enough to know that Amarant can come back to life, so they have to target him. If they did that and took him out, I don't think Sabin would have a problem taking Yang out and winning.

But wait! Yang is smart enough to see that coming, so would he agree with that methodology? He might have to sit back and let Sabin/Amarant weaken each other and then finish them off with a kick...it could go in a lot of different ways. Great fight. I'm still gonna stick with Amarant though.

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me