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I'm writing an article about the death of hip-hop, and I wanted to get you folks' input on something. The basic gist of the column is going to be about how hip-hop is dying, the complete commercialization and accaptence by the mainstream media has taken away all artistic value from the art form. It's allowed non-talented artists like 50-Cent and Fabolous to get rich overnight with no effort, while the real rappers who are trying to make it the old fashioned way (making a rep on the streets by winning battles and ciphers, etc.) can't get signed anymore with out being immediately willing to sell out. (see: Dr. Pepper, Reebok commercials.)

So my question is: How long did other genres last? Whatever you listen to, be it Grunge, Alternative, Heavy Metal, whatever, when did it start? When did it die, or is it still alive? Can you see it dying in the near future? What's going to be the end of your genre? If you're insightful enough I may quote you  

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Hip-Hop QOTW:

"Yeah, where I'ma start it at, look I'ma part of that
Downtown Philly where it's realer than a heart attack
It wasn't really that ill until the start of crack
Now it's a body caught every night on the Almanac"

"Game Theory"
The Roots

most musical styles never DIED, they simply evolved.

i cant so much speak for hip hop as its not my real musical cup of tea, but  DO study music and i find it quite easy to trace a particular style back to its roots, because they all came from pretty similar backgrounds.

for example, rock and roll was not born, its just a simple form of music derived from others:

to show the birth of the ancestors of rock and roll, you have to go waaaay back to the roots of it and look at the slave trade. you had the slaves in the fields working all day, and how did they pass the time? thats right, they made up songs, and hence the birth of the negro spiritual. that would eventually evolve to become more of an instrumental music to replace the vocalization, and you would end up with jazz, which is basically instruments doing the singing for you, and jazz would in turn become blues. jazz and blues were the creative high point for this kind of music, it built up from something simple, and then started to decline from there. as the fairly complex scales and melodies used in blues music were played more and broken down and thus simplified, musicians found it easier to use certain progressions and more pentatonic based melodies and rock and roll came about. asking how long "grunge" or "heavy metal" or "punk" lasted is a ridiculous question, because at its core, its all the same kind of music, using (for the most part) a simple 1-4-5 chord progression, the only difference is the speed or rythm (or volume) at which it is executed. i dont think rock and roll will die, simply because as long as there is blues, then there will be someone who simplifies it, and i dont think blues will die because its probably the most soulfull, expressive music around.

finally, on that token, there would be NONE of that without classical music, and no classical music without baroque, so  for people who do it, dont make fun of your parents music, you sound ignorant.

AND on a side note to THAT, there would be no heavy metal without the beatles, so fans of that particular genre should also not disrespect bands like the beatles, the rolling stones or the who, as i have so kindly illustrated below:

chuck berry/elvis was a direct influence on...the beatles who were a direct influence on...ozzy osbourne who was the frontman of...black sabbath who is a direct influence on...every goddamn modern rock band there is.

theyre all basically playing a black sabbath song, just a little faster or a little slower. and i would personally like the thank ozzy osbourne, tony iommi, geezer butler, and bill ward for not suing them for ripping off their music. same goes for the boys in led zeppelin.

i dont look to offend, and i respect other people opinions, but i dont think hip hop "music" is going to last forever because its not as versatile as it seems at first glance. you cant do so much with a drum machine and some guy talking about cappin suckas in tha hood. or hoes. the talk about the hoes must be stopped. it just gets boring and inane and i cannot possibly respect ANYTHING that first made it big with rappers delight. i totally agree with you that 50 cent and fabolous are untalented artists, but i would say likewise for tupac shakur, dmx, and especially eminem (white boy thinks hes black). im sorry that your favorite style is going down the proverbial toilet, but it happens like that with everything. you dont see a lot of swing bands around anymore now do you?

     R.I.P. Hip-Hop
1977-Hopefully very soon

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You watch the world exploding every single night
Dancing in the sun, a newborn in the light
Say goodbye to gravity and say goodbye to death
Hello to eternity and live for every breath

Your time will come...

Hip-Hop will never die.. you will want it to, but like a bad dream, it wont go away...:shakeshead:
Nu-Metal (Raprock in US) however seems to be going away quite nicely. possibly because many bands now say they are 'rock' so no one calles them limp bizkit wannabes. or even busted wannabes....

I think Rap has become too commercialised as well.. and i knew therandyrhoads wouldnt be liking Rap.. with a name like that?

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

hip-hop certainly is NOT beginning to die, by your definition.  it's been dying for a long time.  commercialism seems to be the final incarnation of hip-hop as a genre...given enough time, most artists will tend to commercialise themselves.  very few artists are immune to this trend; even biggie was headed in that direction.  there are artists who don't succumb to commercialism, and unfortunatly as you said many of them are unsuccessful -- artists like rakim, common, talib, and mos def (although i can't stand him).  on the other hand, there are many original artists who are able to maintain popular appeal while avoiding commercialism -- artists like outkast, dmx, nas, nappy roots -- the basis of their success, over rakim et al's, is simply that they have adapted better.  these arstists are truly original in lyrics and delivery.  certainly every artist has a right to brag sometimes about their success, and the occasional song like adidas is good for the brain these artists deserve their popularity.

then again, i've heard too many white hip-hop listeners present this argument: "hip-hop is dying through commercialisation."  i wouldn't completely agree.  sure, watching 106 & park and seeing nothing but big tits and asses, fancy cars, and lots of money flying around gets old, but then again, when has TV been good for you?  regardless, hip-hop is a form of entertainment, and there is no law that states that entertainment must be of substance.  when is the last time you saw a comedy movie?  how deep are they?  hell, how deep are most action movies today?  it is certainly disconcerting to see no-talent artists like 50 cent and ja rule top the charts, but on the other hand, they clearly have a high entertainment factor.  no one ever said lil john was skilled on the mic, but "i don't give a fuck" sets the club off.  ja rule's duets, while completely lacking in any realness whatsoever, appeal to younger girls.  the entire cash money clique (excepting perhaps juvenile, who very recently reconciled his differences with his label) is completely talentless, but fresh's beats hit hard.  people like that.  you can dance to it.  you can't dance to common.  the subject of the rap doesn't have as much bearing on me as the talent and flow of the rapper do; if a rapper has skills, let him use them as he sees fit.  of course, variety certainly helps and displays lyrical originality.  i love popping in a screwed CCC underground, but after a few songs, the cars and cash get old.  still, their freesyle abilities are top-notch.  houston, in fact, is notorious for flossin, shootin, and ballin in raps, but also has one of the largest underground freestyle scenes.  whatever.  as long as i can chill to some old-school snoop, get crunk with the youngbloodz, or puff a j to bone, it's cool.  there will always be variety, and although it's great to hear it from a single rapper, it doesn't always HAVE to be that way.

let people enjoy what they like.  you can always turn off the radio and pop in a CD with lyrical substance or better delivery.  i know i do.  i can't stand the radio, and barely watch rapcity/106 & park anymore.  but hip-hop isn't dead.  tehre are plenty of artists who keep it real, and then there are the artists to dance to.  it's just a different cup of tea.

I think that many real artists will survive underground regardless of trends in music. You can still find old-sounding metal bands, punk bands, etc. Both of these genres have evolved in the mainstream world, but dig deeper and you'll find that many artists and bands have remained virtually unchanged.

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Lou: There's a couple of guys fighting down at the aquarium, Chief.
Wiggum: Do they still sell those frozen bananas?
Lou: I think so.
Wiggum: Let's roll.

Quote (therandyrhoads @ 3 Apr 2003, 13:43)

most musical styles never DIED, they simply evolved. *** im sorry that your favorite style is going down the proverbial toilet, but it happens like that with everything. you dont see a lot of swing bands around anymore now do you?

Don't those kind of contradict each other? Perhaps I didn't make myself clear originally.

I don't mean die, like, vanish from the face of the earth. Every musical genre, though, definately had it's peak years. I think most people will agree that rock peaked in the 50's and 60's. Of course Jazz still has a nice following, but it was THE music of the 20's through 40's. Hip-hop evolved from other genres, but it's origins can still be traced to New York City parks in the late 70's. Everything has it's ups and downs, and hip-hop is headed for a down, and I was mainly looking for general dates that would apply to other genres, not a critique of rap music, Del.

Gozaru-
The reason I say hip-hop is dying through commercialization is because it's mainstream image is so incredibly dominated by what everyone sees on BET and MTV. I mean, Randy mentioned DMX and Eminem in contrast to Fabolous and 50-Cent, and I think we would tend to include them in the same category of rappers. How many people besides me and you have even heard of Talib Kweli and Mos Def, let alone some of the newer additions like J-Live and Mr. Lif? The problem is that people are only exposed to songs like "In Da Club." What would people say if they heard Outkast's "Liberation?"

And the reason that I say hip-hop is dying now is that in the 90's, there were still just as many Tribe and Snoop albums as there were the other stuff. But now it seems like the real artists are all heading for the door. Mos (you don't like Mos Def??) has left Brooklyn for Hollywood, Outkast hasn't made a new album in 3 years. And everyone else is completely changing their styles, like Common on Electric Circus. It practicly doesn't even belong in the hip-hop section.

On the liner notes for Black Star, Kweli said "it used to be the worst thing you could be was a sell-out. Now the sell-outs are running the show, and branding anyone who stands against them a 'hater'" I think he hit it on the head, and the place for real hip-hop is getting smaller and smaller.

People can enjoy what they like, I don't begrudge the people who like 50-cent. They can have all the fun they want, but what I don't want is the other half of the hip-hop world to go under, and that's what I see happening.

Quote

i can't stand the radio, and barely watch rapcity/106 & park anymore

We agree 100% there.

--------------------

Hip-Hop QOTW:

"Yeah, where I'ma start it at, look I'ma part of that
Downtown Philly where it's realer than a heart attack
It wasn't really that ill until the start of crack
Now it's a body caught every night on the Almanac"

"Game Theory"
The Roots

hmmm... well hows the article going so far then gears?

--------------------

You watch the world exploding every single night
Dancing in the sun, a newborn in the light
Say goodbye to gravity and say goodbye to death
Hello to eternity and live for every breath

Your time will come...

i guess i also am guilty of misunderstanding the point of your original post.  i think i see what you're saying now -- that the genre is more flooded than ever with the mainstream garbage -- and i would agree.  as you say, "intelligent" (if you will) rappers are definitely fewer by proportion these days than they were in the days past.  it's certainly disheartening, but with the advent of club music, who really can say it was unexpected?  as i said before, i don't really listen to the radio much.  i prefer underground music (not to say some mainstream music doesn't blow ug out of the water).  in houston, however, it's mostly looking at the skill and delivery than at the intelligence, and yes, sadly, intelligence in rap is heading for the door.

the reason i say i don't like mos def is because lately he appears to feel that he speaks for the entire hip-hop community.  i enjoy his music and agree with some of his messages, but he seems to think awfully highly of himself to assume that hip-hop itself must agree with everything he says.  on electric circus, although it was a little weird, i really enjoyed it.  the production was very experimental but i thought that for the most part it worked well.  a couple of weeks ago i had it in heavy rotation

in closing, yeah, pop rap is overrunning the other stuff, but don't give up hope yet.  there will always be a following for that type of music, and, hopefully, SOMEONE will always make intelligent rap.

by the way, randy:
"i met a critic, i made her shit her drawers / she said she thought hip-hop was only guns and alcohol / i said oh hell naw, but yet it's that too / you can't discrimihate cuz you done read a book or two"

food for thought.

I don't have time for a long post, but just thought I'd add something.

For starters, I agree that most of the commercialized hip hop of today is crap. Ja Rule, Fabulous, Jay Z, Nelly is the worst of all though, how could you leave out a guy who makes a whole song about a very stupid looking pair of shoes?

I disagree that ALL are in the wrong though. Nas, Outkast, and even Eminem all have some very meaningful songs. For one, anyone that says Eminem has no talent is extremely ignorant. How could ANY "white boy" blow to the top of a completely "African Americans Only" culture, unless he were unbelievably good? Have you ever heard any of his old freestyles? He didn't just walk in one day and bribe Dr. Dre to hype him up so he could be the cool, tough white rapper. Do some of his songs on the radio suck nowadays? Sure. But songs like "Lose Yourself", "Sing for the Moment", and "White America" are far from the norm of "sippin on hennesy while i smacked my bitch up".

Nas is also far from that norm. I can't give any props to DMX though. I mean, EVERY single song is "WHAT?....WHAT?...WHAT?...". It's just plain irritating. And also, he's a terrible actor and shouldn't be making movies.

I don't listen to much Underground Hip Hop, but I'm big into punk music. Though i'm not a "punk", and would never dress like one. I'm more of a "jock" sports type guy. I go to concerts all the time etc., but if I ever tried to hang out with them i'd probably get rejected for "not being punk enough" or i'd be a "poser". I mean, wtf? The attitudes of most punks just piss me off, wasnt the punk culture founded by rejects and people who didn't fit it? Now they say "you're not punk enough" for them (not me, but even other people who dress that way). They're doing exactly the opposite of what they originally claimed to be! Bunch of hypocrites (not all of course, just the extreme ones with egos). Alot of the music is great though. I just can't stand the dreary or boring Bad Religion types though.



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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

Quote

I don't have time for a long post, but just thought I'd add something.

after seeingthe length of your post, i just found that comment somewhat ironic and i just felt it bore mentioning.

--------------------

You watch the world exploding every single night
Dancing in the sun, a newborn in the light
Say goodbye to gravity and say goodbye to death
Hello to eternity and live for every breath

Your time will come...

Yeah, i ended up getting carried away. I thought I said that at the end...

--------------------

The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"