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Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 16th April 2007 23:41)

Emperor:

• Let's see... He kicks people out of Fynn Castle to rule over
• His men complete the Dreadnought and it destroys alot of villages
• Then he becomes satanic and sells his soul to demons

Okay, as a FF2 fanboy,I have to defend my fave.

The point is, I never saw ONE main villain in 2. I saw the entire Empire as the collective villain. Also,

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

The Empire doesn't fall with the Emperor's death since Leon comes up and just takes over.
The Undead Emperor comes around when the party is to confront Leon and it is actually quite predictable, since it's in the intro, that he has signed a pact with the forces of Hell.

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Quote

We're supposed to believe that taking time and compressing it into a singular moment where everything exists at the same time will transform people into slaves? How? Sure it's impressive, but where's the link between compressing time and making people slaves? If you have the power to compress time across every moment in existence, then why not take the scenic route and just overthrow all world governments with sheer brute magical force? For that matter, if you're that powerful, why would you even need slaves anyway?

wait
i know this is a little late, but didnt Ultimecia us a machine to travel in time and used Ellone's powers to make the machine compress time?
if so, thats why she didnt overthrow the goverment power because she didnt have the power too

the machine + Ellone = time compression
not
Ultimecia + her magic = time compression

correct me if im wrong

This post has been edited by Cow_Of_The_Opera on 17th April 2007 21:11

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delete me

I'm not really drawn to the bad guys, so I don't think about them that much. One of my least favourites was Sephiroth because he was just this nuthead who wanted his mommy and didn't even talk at the end of the game when the bad guys usually give a huge speech.

Really, all the villians are silly because they think they can just go and casually destroy the world or all it's inhabitants and for what reason? So they can rule over a pile of rubble? Yeah, real smart.

I don't have any favourite villians. There are very few games in general with villains that I like (FE: The Sacred Stones being an exception because I absolutely loved Lyon). I tend to go for the heroes.

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Quote (King Eddy @ 17th April 2007 21:54)

I'm not really drawn to the bad guys, so I don't think about them that much. One of my least favourites was Sephiroth because he was just this nuthead who wanted his mommy and didn't even talk at the end of the game when the bad guys usually give a huge speech.

Really, all the villians are silly because they think they can just go and casually destroy the world or all it's inhabitants and for what reason? So they can rule over a pile of rubble? Yeah, real smart.

I don't have any favourite villians. There are very few games in general with villains that I like (FE: The Sacred Stones being an exception because I absolutely loved Lyon). I tend to go for the heroes.

haha
funny


yay for Sephiroth not-like-ness


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delete me

Quote (Cow_Of_The_Opera @ 17th April 2007 16:10)

Quote

We're supposed to believe that taking time and compressing it into a singular moment where everything exists at the same time will transform people into slaves? How? Sure it's impressive, but where's the link between compressing time and making people slaves? If you have the power to compress time across every moment in existence, then why not take the scenic route and just overthrow all world governments with sheer brute magical force? For that matter, if you're that powerful, why would you even need slaves anyway?

wait
i know this is a little late, but didnt Ultimecia us a machine to travel in time and used Ellone's powers to make the machine compress time?
if so, thats why she didnt overthrow the goverment power because she didnt have the power too

the machine + Ellone = time compression
not
Ultimecia + her magic = time compression

correct me if im wrong

well, there was a machine that mimed ellone's 'power', and Ultimecia used that to possess sorceresses in the past (present game time(Edea, Rinoa, Adel)) but she needed to go further back in time to compress it, so when Ultimecia possesses Rinoa, Ellone sends her back into kid Adel (i think), and time is compressed because of it (ultimecia possesses kid Adel and uses the combined sorceresses power to compress it

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Aujourdhui a commence avec toi.

Quote (dont chocobos rule? @ 17th April 2007 23:37)

Quote (Cow_Of_The_Opera @ 17th April 2007 16:10)

Quote

We're supposed to believe that taking time and compressing it into a singular moment where everything exists at the same time will transform people into slaves? How? Sure it's impressive, but where's the link between compressing time and making people slaves? If you have the power to compress time across every moment in existence, then why not take the scenic route and just overthrow all world governments with sheer brute magical force? For that matter, if you're that powerful, why would you even need slaves anyway?

wait
i know this is a little late, but didnt Ultimecia us a machine to travel in time and used Ellone's powers to make the machine compress time?
if so, thats why she didnt overthrow the goverment power because she didnt have the power too

the machine + Ellone = time compression
not
Ultimecia + her magic = time compression

correct me if im wrong

well, there was a machine that mimed ellone's 'power', and Ultimecia used that to possess sorceresses in the past (present game time(Edea, Rinoa, Adel)) but she needed to go further back in time to compress it, so when Ultimecia possesses Rinoa, Ellone sends her back into kid Adel (i think), and time is compressed because of it (ultimecia possesses kid Adel and uses the combined sorceresses power to compress it

oh ok
belive it or not, i actually understood that

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Quote (King Eddy @ 17th April 2007 16:54)

Really, all the villians are silly because they think they can just go and casually destroy the world or all it's inhabitants and for what reason? So they can rule over a pile of rubble? Yeah, real smart.

I like to call this the Ex-Death syndrome. "Ho hum, I shall reduce the world to nothing by sucking it into the void! THEN I WILL RULE EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING! HAR HAR HAR!! " ...Dude. Seriously. You did not think this through. And you're a tree, to boot.

What contributes a lot towards how I feel about a villain is their final motive. Some have ridiculous goals that make little or no sense at all. Others have real motives that go beyond the Ex-Death syndrome, and those are cool.

Frankly, Kefka and Sephy were stupid because their goals were to destroy the world and become gods so they could uh... rule over the world? Maybe it's just the whole sheer coolness of being a god? Kefka did have an excuse though: something in his head had snapped when he got infused (as can be learned through a VERY IMPORTANT AND OBVIOUS discussion with a MOST CERTAINLY NOT TERRIBLY EASY TO OVERLOOK wandering NPC in town... somewhere. )

Ultimecia? "Har har, I shall compress time (lol nonsense action!)" Yeah. Let's never speak of FF8 again, if it can be helped. Some mistakes should've never seen the light of day, but this atrocity did.

Kuja? Perhaps the only villain trying to destroy the world for a reason: "if I'm going to die, I'm taking everyone with me!" At least he wasn't trying to rule a pile of rubble. He just wanted to turn everything to rubble because he's a jerk like that and can't deal with the whole "being dead and rotting in the ground" thing.

Seymour? I'm not quite sure what his reasons were - he sounded more like something broke in his head than him having a real plan. Honestly I had a hard time understanding his motive. Maybe I missed something. It's like a cross between Ex-Death and Kuja.

A lot of Square's villains want to simply destroy the world, because it's a convinient deux ex machina. What's worse than having the entire world destroyed after all? Nobody cares if some country is taken over or someone dies - it happens all the time in cutscenes. But destroying the world, well, that leaves you rather fresh out of options doesn't it?

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 17th April 2007 23:56

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Ah yes, Seymour, the thing about him is, he had this whole skewed vision of Yevon, feeling as if it mislead the people by giving them a false sense of security in the Calm. He was really kinda noble in that he wanted, at first, to obliterate Sin completely. At some point (I would have to imagine it being after his murder) He became completely certifiable and decided the best way to save Spira was to simply kill everything, and to do that he would become Sin, thus ending the cycle. Poor misguided nut failed to realize that by becoming Sin he was propagating the very cycle that he sought to end. So, long story short, he wnated to save the world by killing everything, not so much rule anything per se', He simply wanted to annihilate everything to end the 'pain of the people of Spira.'

Basically, yeah, Kuja + Ex-Death = Seymour.

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Quote (Nytecrawla @ 17th April 2007 19:55)

So, long story short, he wnated to save the world by killing everything

That is the most awesome summary I've ever heard.

Thanks for making it clear though - I think I've been trying to get those sigils (crests?) for so long everything else has been flushed out of my head. I remember now - he brings that up often when you meet him, like at Mt. Gagazet when talking about Kimahri.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Silverlance @ 17th April 2007 18:56)

Frankly, Kefka and Sephy were stupid because their goals were to destroy the world and become gods so they could uh... rule over the world? Maybe it's just the whole sheer coolness of being a god?

If I do recall, yes, Sephiroth did want to rule the world by destroying it, but is that not because he wanted to drag them all to the other side of the Lifestream? He wanted to eradicate everyone and gain the power of the Promiseland, yes? Do correct me if I'm wrong though.

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Games on the Go
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Final Fantasy: Four Warriors of Light
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Too much to play, so little time!

Greg

IIRC, he was trying to kill everyone and smash Meteor into the Planet so that the lifestream would plow into the Planet's wound. Then he'd be right there, soaking it all up.

Leaving him with a busted chunk of rock slowly wilting away (remember Bugenhagen's little drawing-all-the-lifestream-from-the-planet demo where the Planet just cracked apart?) and nobody to rule over. But hey, he'd have Ultimate Power ™ in order to beat the good guys when Square decides to slap him as a cameo in another game.

The potential use of being a god is closely tied to your ability to be cool enough to star as a cameo in other games.

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 18th April 2007 04:00

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Strangely enough...we have yet to see a Kefka cameo...or am I mistaken?

That whiny momma's boy gets all the fanboys underoos wet...but Kefka, no love...Even Seifer got a cameo!

What is the world coming to?

I bet the next cameo is freakin Ultimecia or Adel...watch.

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This is a webcomic and gaming blog where I rant about nonsense. Enjoy.

I was a soldier, now I just play one in video games.

Sephiroth did want to absorb all the planets life and power but IIFC he mentions in Advent Children that he will use this power to go to another world and build "a shining future". I think his aim might have very well been to travel somewhere else and rule there, or just rule the whole of existance in general.

I think its a little similar to

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

the Omega Weapon of Dirge of Cerberus, which wants to do basically the same thing to preseve the planets lifestream.

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In the end, it boils down to two simple choices. Either you do or you don't.

Quote (cloud17 @ 18th April 2007 08:48)

Sephiroth did want to absorb all the planets life and power but IIFC he mentions in Advent Children that he will use this power to go to another world and build "a shining future". I think his aim might have very well been to travel somewhere else and rule there, or just rule the whole of existance in general.

Yeah, I was going to comment that at least in AC Square-Enix got wise in the writing and altered Sephiroth's goal. Instead of simply wanting to consume all the energy in the Lifestream, he wanted to reduce that world to a hunk of nothing and then traverse the universe to strike at another planet like Jenova originally did on the home planet. I liked that little tie in, personally, bringing a somewhat fresher view to a story they seem to want to drain more and more from, but that's another discussion entirely...

Further to the point, on the subject of cameos, is Sephiroth's appearance in the KH series simply because he is a more marketable villain, as I'm sure sales have confirmed for SE marketing, or is he in a fact a more endearing villain. I hazard to think it is a combination of the two, but more to the latter point. Introducing more FFVII cast then anything else into KH was a good advertising tool what with the soon to be released AC, after all. So, as noble a villain as I find Sephiroth, I doubt SE had such good-minded intentions and instead went with the cast as a commodity.

I know for certain many out there would have loved to see other villains and SE game cast members get re-introduced, but it likely will not happen, alas, but one can hope.

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Games on the Go
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy: Four Warriors of Light
Baldur's Gate

Too much to play, so little time!

Greg

I'm still hoping for Kefka in KHIII.

Speaking of whom, his final goal wasn't to destroy the world, then rule it. He wanted to destroy the world, then destroy everything else. By the time you confront him at the end, he's snapped even further with no intention of ruling anything.

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hmmm im just now having this idea....... how about someone help me write a Fan-Fic based on the Warmech ! now as far as difficulty goes....... Warmech takes the cake.. am i right??? just a thought... might as well throw that hat in the ring... i mean, doesent Warmech have the ultimate potential for being the Ultimate Baddie...!???

Villains I am familiar with:

Golbez: An okay villain. Nice theme song, but not very convincing. Just seemed like a generic, threatening, evil character. (Also didn't have the best script ever.) The spoiler exposed at the endgame about him just makes him even less villainous.

Zemus/Zeromus: You don't know about him until the game's pretty much over. Not very interesting by my standards. He's just kinda introduced, and you fight and beat him, and then it's over. There aren't even really any hints in the rest of the game that he has anything to do with the plot, unfortunately, making him rather ineffective as a villain.

Exdeath: Now here's an effective villain. Acts as the "evil god" villain type once you find out who he is: He can screw the world over any time he wants, any way he wants. Your goal is to save the world from the dark shadow of the Evil Lord Exdeath (as his theme song names him) that looms over it every day he can threaten it with the power of the Void. Makes for a VERY compelling, driven plot.

Neo-Exdeath: Just kinda appeared out of nowhere to give the final battle more duration. What the heck.

The Empire and Emperor Gestahl: Hatable, but seemed stereotypical, and wasn't quite evil enough yet for me to hate their guts out.

Kefka: "Evil god effect", plus his sheer characterization--as an almost imaginably evil cackling maniac. Not the same type of "evil god" as Exdeath, but an even more dangerous, more chaotic version.

Shinra: Now these guys are hatable. Filthy rich bastards took over city politics, screwed the poor people over by (literally) permanently forcing them to endure darkness, drain the lifeblood (or lifestream, if you will) of the planet, and send secret police to "deal with" anyone who opposes them.

Sephiroth: A wronged man. Shinra screws with his mind and body so badly that he becomes a weapon of mass destruction, to put it simply. But it's not his fault. And I can't quite make out whether he's arrogant or fankids just make him out to be that way, but I don't like his tone of arrogance; however, that actually makes him more annoying than appreciable as a character. He's not an evil god, but more so turns into some kind of overpowered psychotic thinker who decides that going a certain plot path will make everything better and then goes and does it. But I feel sorry for the poor guy, because he's not actually evil.

Lavos: A very effective villain. Not my personal favorite, but that doesn't mean it isn't effective. Completely imposing, albeit complete "cold" in its demeanor. It doesn't even say a word, but it can scare the crap out of anything, and with good reason: it can, and will for sure, destroy the world. It needs not be aligned with anything evil to be effective--its mere presence, spelling doom with near-complete certainty, is enough. It's like a living time bomb--it need not be smart enough to do various evil deeds; it needs only spell the doom of everyone simply and clearly.

Queen Zeal: Another very effective villain. Destroys just about everything she would have cared about in her newfound insanity and thirst for power, and permanently scars her children. Right-hand woman of Lavos, she also wants ultimate power and is well on her way to getting it, what with that big shadowy thing that we all know about. (And one of the most awesome boss fights ever.) The only redeeming quality about Zeal is the possibility that we can blame it all on Lavos.

Recalling my recent post (which you can see by clicking here) in the Kefka vs. Sephiroth topic about the "hatability" of villains, I think that's the way I unconsciously divide them. The villains I find most effective are the ones that I can and have reason to hate more strongly, the ones that are more definitively evil or otherwise destructive, the ones that lead most effectively up to a final, ultra-epic battle that I'd have no qualms about giving my all.

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 19th April 2007 08:13

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Quote (Nytecrawla @ 18th April 2007 00:55)

Ah yes, Seymour, the thing about him is, he had this whole skewed vision of Yevon, feeling as if it mislead the people by giving them a false sense of security in the Calm. He was really kinda noble in that he wanted, at first, to obliterate Sin completely. At some point (I would have to imagine it being after his murder) He became completely certifiable and decided the best way to save Spira was to simply kill everything, and to do that he would become Sin, thus ending the cycle. Poor misguided nut failed to realize that by becoming Sin he was propagating the very cycle that he sought to end. So, long story short, he wnated to save the world by killing everything, not so much rule anything per se', He simply wanted to annihilate everything to end the 'pain of the people of Spira.'

Basically, yeah, Kuja + Ex-Death = Seymour.

Could you expand on this post a little? I never got the impression that Seymour ever wanted to destroy Sin before or after his murder, but I could be wrong. I mean, before his murder, he stops Yuna from summoning against it, and his mother's fayth mentions that his obsession with Sin started growing even just after he received her aeon.

I agree though about the "wanting to save the world by killing everyone" and the fact that his plan was (overall) horrendously ill-conceived. His plan would have been better if he planned on somehow killing Yunalesca AFTER he had become Yuna's fayth, but that would take some serious planning:

You become a statue in Zanarkand, and Yuna can't summon you then because she'll die and you won't get to become Sin. So you wait until she summons you and beats Sin, but then you become Sin.

Maybe Seymour planned on killing everyone in Spira after he had become Sin and before a new High Summoner arose, but I'd say the story writers left it pretty open-ended just how much control the person inside Sin had over Sin itself. Obviously it couldn't be too terribly much, otherwise Sin wouldn't be as nasty as it was. Or maybe Sin's nastiness varies with the nastiness of the person currently inside?

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You don't scare me, you talking blobs of oozing slop! I am impervious to pain!

I'm a huge fan of both Kefka and Kuja. Sephiroth... was disappointing. He kicked ass in the Nibelheim flashback, burninating everything and basically going completely crazy and then he's just kinda... there. He seemed more evil and generally cooler in the movie, though that may have had something to do with his voice.

As far as I'm concerned, ShinRa are the real villains of FFVII... especially Hojo. I mean, that guy's the one who is responsible for Sephiroth (and not 'cause he's his father; I mean he messed with the poor kid while he was still in the womb, thus resulting in the stab-happy mama's boy we all know), and he's also responsible for a good deal of Cloud's messed-upness. He ruined Vincent's life, is harder to beat than Sephiroth and wore his labcoat on the beach.

And the whole destroying the world to rule it thing that a lot of villains have going on is kinda confusing to me. I can understand wanting to destroy it. I can understand wanting to rule it. But... guys? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Well, Kefka did... but you can't be Kefka.

This post has been edited by Celes of Blades on 22nd April 2007 02:05

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Come with me so I can show you how to live
Burning the candle at both ends
I’m gripping at the walls around me
Don’t complicate it
I’m addicted to this life
I’ll be your token of attention
All my lies come down to this
-Orgy, "Beautiful Disgrace"

Quote (Celes of Blades @ 21st April 2007 19:46)

And the whole destroying the world to rule it thing that a lot of villains have going on is kinda confusing to me. I can understand wanting to destroy it. I can understand wanting to rule it. But... guys? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Well, Kefka did... but you can't be Kefka.

I figured something out: they need attention. You know how those 13 year old emo kids on the internet threaten to commit suicide because their parents won't let them go to their friend's party and make a big fuss out of it? Same thing. Ergo, villains are 13 year old emo kids with attention problems. Take the three villains from Advent Children and their oeudipian complex - you can't call them grown men with a straight face when they're running around crying about their mommy all the time!

To be noticed, they can't just do something lame like paint their name on the moon with like, a big laser or something cool. And what better way to get attention than by threatening to blow up the world?

In short, by beating them, they're given the attention they crave. THEY win. You lose. The only way to really win would be to ignore them entirely. They'll eventually get bored, realize nobody cares, and get on with their lives to become accountants or something equally boring.

But really, for all the awesome moments we've experienced playing FF and all the great character developement we're faced with, most of them are really lacking in the creativity department, plot-wise.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Silverlance @ 21st April 2007 21:26)

But really, for all the awesome moments we've experienced playing FF and all the great character developement we're faced with, most of them are really lacking in the creativity department, plot-wise.

This is true. SE does seem to draw upon a lot of the same archetypal characters in their installments, which is really unfortunate. There is so much promise in these games and on some of the most important things they seem to skimp.

Quote (Celes of Blades)

As far as I'm concerned, ShinRa are the real villains of FFVII... especially Hojo.

You know, I think I'd have to agree with on that. In all honesty, especially after playing Dirge of Cerberus, Hojo seems to be a greater villain than Sephiroth ever was. There is such a twisted drive behind his work that created so many repercussions, Sephiroth being one of those.

ShinRa I don't think was as villainous, but more just corrupt. Commercial gain and power was the name of their game and it drove them to seemingly horrific ends, but in there minds, that was the cost. Misguided and poorly executed, but not evil I'd say. They're like Hitler's regime in a way, he committed some heinously evil acts, but economically and politically had a lot of sense and generated a lot of power and support. Again, incredibly and frighteningly misguided, though.

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Games on the Go
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy: Four Warriors of Light
Baldur's Gate

Too much to play, so little time!

Greg

Quote (Perigryn @ 22nd April 2007 00:53)

Quote (Celes of Blades)

As far as I'm concerned, ShinRa are the real villains of FFVII... especially Hojo.

You know, I think I'd have to agree with on that. In all honesty, especially after playing Dirge of Cerberus, Hojo seems to be a greater villain than Sephiroth ever was. There is such a twisted drive behind his work that created so many repercussions, Sephiroth being one of those.

Seconded. It's quite clear after playing DoC that Hojo plays a big role in the events of the FF7 series (I suppose we can pretty much call it that now ) He's been manipulating a lot of things behind the scenes and is responsible for quite a few things surrounding ShinRa and 'ol Sephy.

If there's one thing I liked about FF7, it'd have to be how the villain role shifted from person to person in ways that never quite made it clear just who was pulling the strings. First President ShinRa, then Rufus, then Sephiroth, Hojo, so forth... It's not as straightforward as, say, FFV (there's only one villain start to finish) or IV/VI/VIII/IX (the villain starts off as one person, that person ends up either dying or seeing the error of their ways, then another villain is found to be pulling the strings), or III (where the real villain is entirely absent from the story until, well... the end. >_> )

I'd have to say Hojo was a rather impressive villain, though the bit in DoC about him felt a little forced.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

What with him uploading himself on the internet (sorta) and downloading himself into Weiß...

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Yeah, I kinda' agree that seemed a little, well, strange. I dunno'. It was a little far fetched theory I think.

But yeah, I think you're right about the string pulling in VII. The role does seem to transfer all over the place, but I've not found it all that confusing to be honest, considering the lack of clarity in the transfer, not to mention it bounced back and forth continuously amongst them. It was effective I think, though, keeping the player guessing at just who had the ultimate power. In the end, it seems to come down to Hojo and Sephiroth, I think.

I guess the same thing happens in VI, as far as I can tell thus far. For the longest time, one thinks Gestahl is the true villain, but then we witness Kefka's turn and rise to power and we find that he is in fact the villainous mind behind everything. It may not be as convoluted as VII, but there is still a power transfer amongst the more human characters, unlike other games that get rid of the human element and put power in the hands of some great, surreal beast/god/demon thing, for example, Sin.

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Games on the Go
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy: Four Warriors of Light
Baldur's Gate

Too much to play, so little time!

Greg

Well, comparing VI and VII concerning your last paragraph, Perigryn, I'd say that my opinion is that VII overdid a nice plot device.

Also,...

Quote (Celes of Blades)

As far as I'm concerned, ShinRa are the real villains of FFVII... especially Hojo. I mean, that guy's the one who is responsible for Sephiroth (and not 'cause he's his father; I mean he messed with the poor kid while he was still in the womb, thus resulting in the stab-happy mama's boy we all know), and he's also responsible for a good deal of Cloud's messed-upness. He ruined Vincent's life, is harder to beat than Sephiroth and wore his labcoat on the beach.

THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! There we go. I can't see how anyone can argue that Sephiroth is intrinsically more evil than Hojo, or even much of Shinra.

--------------------

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Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 22nd April 2007 15:01)

I can't see how anyone can argue that Sephiroth is intrinsically more evil than Hojo, or even much of Shinra.

Easy. He's a creation of Hojo after all, and is being manipulated behind the scenes right down to the last moment by the labcoat-wearing man himself using the Sister Ray. Wouldn't even surprise me if goading ShinRa in building it so he could use it to let Sephiroth acheive his goal was Hojo's plan all along, once the WEAPONs awoke.

It doesn't end there. Even after all is said and done, Hojo still comes back to essentially do exactly what Sephiroth wanted to do with Omega WEAPON in DoC. Doesn't it seem a little strange to you how their goals were so similare and that Hojo was responsible for creating him in the first place? Not only that, Hojo was just as bad right from the start. Until Nibelheim, Sephiroth could've very well turned out a member of AVALANCH. Well, almost.

Though there's simply no arguing that Sephiroth is evil post-Nibelheim, Hojo was the way he is ever since the Lucrecia days. And following his actions, there's no debating the fact he created Sephiroth using Jenova cells on Lucrecia, fought to let his creation acheive its final purpose, and even when all was lost, managed to keep himself around to do the dirty work by himself. Sephiroth? He was just fooled into trying to please his mommy - just like Cloud was almost fooled, again by Hojo, into thinking he was the same as Sephiroth and all the other clones.

Edit: I read that as "isn't." My bad.

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 25th April 2007 22:50

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 22nd April 2007 20:01)

I can't see how anyone can argue that Sephiroth is intrinsically more evil than Hojo, or even much of Shinra.

I think it's because the things that Hojo does aren't quite as 'dramatic' as the things Seph does. The average person will look at the two and think that yeah, Hojo's creepy and pretty evil but OMG Sephiroth! You killed Aeris! =O You bastard!

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Come with me so I can show you how to live
Burning the candle at both ends
I’m gripping at the walls around me
Don’t complicate it
I’m addicted to this life
I’ll be your token of attention
All my lies come down to this
-Orgy, "Beautiful Disgrace"