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Quote (Kylerocks @ 29 Mar 2003, 23:53)

If Bush just tried to solve the Palestine-Israel conflict...I'd respect him and the world'll never have to worry about the Middle east again.  ...But NO!!  He has to go for the vendetta and take out the bully-turned-wimp.  Sheesh, I think Bush was never bullied when he was a kid, hell...he might of been the bully, with his influential family...

Clinton spent his entire administration trying to solve this conflict, and that didn't work. Just because you think Bush is doing the wrong thing in Iraq doesn't mean that trying to do the right thing would work either. Especially given the fact that Clinton was pretty good at foriegn diplomacy and Bush has been clumsy as all get-out.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

However, as I recall, the peace process was actually going somewhere, until Ariel Sharon (before he was PM) started parading himself around Palestinian and disputed territories, with the clear intention of inciting violence and breaking down the peace process.

Though I tend to agree, GWB should stay out of there, since his solution would probably involve invading Palestine and "liberating" it (annexing it to Israel).  America's (and hence Britain's) unwavering support for Israel, no matter how wrong it is, is yet another area on which most of Europe (and probably the Middle East, heh) disagrees.

(A side note here, when I say "Israel" or "America" or whatever country, I obviously refer to the governments and policies of that country.  There are great people and awful people in every country; I'm not judging residents in a blanket statement.  A lot of it depends on whether the good people or awful people get to be in charge...)

Quote (Neal @ 26 Mar 2003, 11:47)

This is a great argument/debate/thread.  I don't think we've ever had one like this.  As the war goes on, I could see this hitting 200 replies or more.

this is ironic- on another sites forums i frequent, US citezens, UK citezens and Everyone else seem to be embroiled in a free for all flame war......

I noticed theres some problems with supply lines...and the first british casualties have been returned home.

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

Iraq has now vowed to use "Unconvential Tactics" against Coalition forces and already there has been one suicide bomber woman that killed 3 members of Coalition forces. Things are starting to get very dirty. Who knows what else they might be up to.

Meanwhile, Coalition Forces are inching ever closer to Baghdad.

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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

Quote

Iraq has now vowed to use "Unconvential Tactics" against Coalition forces and already there has been one suicide bomber woman that killed 3 members of Coalition forces. Things are starting to get very dirty. Who knows what else they might be up to.

Is now using "Unconventional Tactics"!? Like they haven't before!?

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

Well, Baghdad has officially fallen. The large statue and symbol of Sadaam's regime was torn down to the delight of jubilant Iraqis. No one knows the fate of Sadaam, but some say he may have survived and escaped to Syria. Now is the time we find out what America's motives really were I'm presuming. To me, I'm just not buying into some big cover-up conspiracy crap.

Watching MSNBC is great entertainment. Nonstop mockery of all the politicians and celebrities that protested against the war and said that Bush was just a war monger, and how now they're all eating their words. How Sadaam has executed more people then any man on the planet, but still should be allowed to remain in power. All while showing pictures of a happy, liberated Iraq. Whether you support one side or the other, it's just hilarious to watch. The Iraqis defacing Sadaam are great, as are all the wacky whack jobs they have calling everyone "clowns".

And going off what Rangers said[in the oil topic], why must America always be the perfect country? Because we're the "best", and no one else will do it. Sure, when anything bad ever happens in the world, we're supposed to be right there to help them on their feet. How about if we just felt like being assholes like the rest of the world most of the time? I mean, no one ever helps us, why should we be obligated to help them? We don't get any credit for what we do, we're just critisized on what we don't do. Yet we'd still be looked at as the big bad war mongering country, despite how much money we could send to aid poverty, disease, education, etc.

When did this motto of "Strong means Wrong" attitude come along? Just because we're a Strong country attacking a Weak country, it means that we're obviously wrong?



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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

Quote (Tidu-who @ 10 Apr 2003, 01:47)

And going off what Rangers said[in the oil topic], why must America always be the perfect country? Because we're the "best", and no one else will do it. Sure, when anything bad ever happens in the world, we're supposed to be right there to help them on their feet. How about if we just felt like being assholes like the rest of the world most of the time? I mean, no one ever helps us, why should we be obligated to help them? We don't get any credit for what we do, we're just critisized on what we don't do. Yet we'd still be looked at as the big bad war mongering country, despite how much money we could send to aid poverty, disease, education, etc.

But it's this attitude I dislike.  America doesn't just give help when it's asked, it takes it upon itself to decide what's right and wrong, and I don't think it has the right.

Seeing the jubilant Iraqis in Baghdad has softened my opinion a little.  Yeah, the war's done a lot of good for them.  I still question the motives of it.  If it was all about liberating the citizens, it would have been done years ago.  I still wonder "why now", and I still wonder where these weapons of mass destruction are supposed to have been.  All that still stands.

So given that the timing shows that this war wasn't about helping the Iraqi people, and was in the best case about protecting America from these alleged weapons of mass destruction, this good effect is just a side effect of America acting (with Britain, of course) in its own interests again.  It's rather self-centred as a "world policeman".  And I'm still not seeing the opression released on a lot of third world countries who are suffering with massive unpayable debts to Western countries, and I'm not seeing a lot of aid going out there that's officially sponsored by any government.  Maybe if the government started pretending to make some weapons, America could wake up and care.

Perhaps it's wise to remember that half of the Middle East wouldn't hate America and friends if they weren't always "policing" over there with a bias in Israel's favour.

But yeah, granted, it's done good.  It's good to see Saddam's reign over, whatever the reason for it.

Sure they celebrated by tearing down Hussein's statue and started dragging the head around the streets, but at the same time 3/4 of a mile away, a man, his wife, and his young child had to be blown apart because they started relentlessly firing upon a military squad with machine guns.

Half are rejoicing, half hate us, but no one really knows what to think. The reason for this is because during Desert Storm the US told the Shiite Muslims, an oppressed minority, if they would help, America would supply them and back them up. When the anti-War protests started, America backed out to avoid another political-death like Vietnam, leaving Hussein in power. The Shiite Muslims were then slaughtered by the thousands. Many of those who hate us are afraid of the US backing out again, leaving them in the hands of another person like Hussein.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

In responce to Tiddles post, if the right thing's been done for the wrong reason, it's still the right thing that's been done.  Let God judge the reason.

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Farts

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I still laugh whenever I hear the term "Operation Iraqi Freedom" because the objective, as Tiddles stated so clearly, was not to liberate the Iraqis.  As far as we know, it was because we were afraid of what possibly could have happened to the country.  Liberating an oppressed culture just gives Bush a way to make himself look clean in the process when he's bungled everything up in the process in reality.  Diplomacy failed because no other option but war was ever considered.

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

Speaking of the whole "Meaninglessness" idea, has anybody heard anything about Afghanistan? I know the troops are still there fighting, but nothing else. It seems Iraq has over-shadowed it.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer