Track this topic | Email this topic | Print this topic

I"m probably not putting this in the right place but I was curious. I know this site doesn't like to have threads about or give access to particular illegal software hacks such as RPG Maker 2000, but I notice that rom hacks seem to be ok to talk about and be directed to in obtaining these. I"m curious as to why it is ok to discuss and direct one to rom hacks but not to RPG Maker 2000. Neither are particularly legal and you can't really say that a rom hack is an original work because it still contains elements from the original "illegal" rom.

--------------------

Elena Indurain

Currently Playing: Suikoden II

Quote

I know this site doesn't like to have threads about or give access to particular illegal software hacks such as RPG Maker 2000, but I notice that rom hacks seem to be ok to talk about and be directed to in obtaining these.

I'm not a moderator, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, mods.

ROM hacks are ok to talk about because they're considered creations. In ym case, at least. I created the thread for IDEAS for a CREATION. That's not illegal is it? Now, please direct your attention to the bolded portion of the above quote. Any thread or post linking to a location to download ROMs or hacks or anything is immediately editted with that nasty red tag called a "mod edit", and the link is removed. There is no living link to a ROM site, or ROM, whether it be a hack of a ROM, or the original ROM.

I don't know about here, but at some other sites (such as mnrogar's den, a ROM-hacking site), it is allowed to link to a patch for a ROM. When applied, this will transform your ROM into a hack or bug-fixed version, or what have you. Still, patches are perfectly legal. The legality of ROMs is questionable, which is why they are never linked to from here or other popular forums.

I'm not sure what example you speak of when you say that it's ok to direct someone where to obtain a ROM or ROM hack, but I have not once seen a link such as that slip by a mod without being eliminated from the face of existance.

If I'm way off course here, feel free to prove me wrong.

Oh, one more thing:

Quote

you can't really say that a rom hack is an original work

I disagree with this statement 100%. A ROM hack is certainly original work. You cannot say that since it is using the same engine, or resembles the original game that it isn't original. By the same logic, couldn't you then say that all drawings of video game characters aren't original since they resemble the original character?

--------------------

Is PJ

Hehe, last post here before I move. Then I'll be offline for about a month.

Pirated software means the authors never received a cent for their work from you. In the case of RM2k, for instance, ASCII never even KNOWS you bought the game, much less gets any money for their work. Being a programmer myself, I strong oppose this, and can quite proudly lay claim to having 100% legal software on my PC.

With ROMs, it's the same thing. Personally, I have no hangups over emulating FF3/6 because I have the original cartridge and paid my dues. And I believe it's the case with most of the people here who've been through the SNES era. Nothing is being stolen as such, just used in an alternate manner.

On the subject of what's actually created via a ROM or RPGMakers, that's different. Not being able to talk about RM2k creations is like not being able to talk about one's PSP creations: it may come from commercial software, but the creation itself is in no way commercial nor protected by any distribution laws. Well, except for RM2k: IIRC, you aren't allowed to publish commercial games created through it. With ROMs, nothing illegal is being distributed as you still require your own ROM to patch an IPS. The IPS format is not commercial, nor are the patching programs and emulators used to run the result.

These things are like bullets: without a gun, you can't do anything with them. It's really hard to murder someone with just a bullet (unless you slip it into their coffee and they choke on it or something, but y'know. ) so heck, just how bad IS a bullet? Once you've loaded the gun, the decision's yours, and that's where it can become an illegal tool used to commit illegal actions.

A ROM hack is derivative work to some extent. You're recycling a lot of elements from the original ROM. But parts of what are changed are fully original, and in some instances the original material can outweight the altered material. The hack I'm working on has 100% original graphics and a lot of original code (I've scrapped the esper system in favor of an affinity system. Players must now buy spells and learn them instead of using Espers. Plus none of the original battle commands are there anymore. And every map has been remade. And events. And battle animation. And spell. And enemy. And character. Granted, it's for only ~5 dungeons' worth of gameplay, but all that's available to the player is original.)

If anything, the purpose of original creations is to show off one's own material within a certain environment. Just like you need, say, a browser to view a website within the browser's own rules and formats, you need a ROM to view an IPS patch within that ROM's own rules and the system's own formats. Let's not forget that fanart, too, is derivative rather than original. The character is in no way the artist's property and it, too, is protected by copyright laws. The original idea behind the character served as a basis for the picture. Just like the original game serves as the basis for a heavily hacked ROM hack with completely reprogrammed sections.

Edit: Though I probably won't see this until this weekend, I'm curious about two things.

1- What is your point? I don't mean to ask this in a rude manner, I'm just curious what you're getting at. I've never seen anyone turning down an RM2k thread (AFAIK, mind you!)
2- Where were links to a ROM ever provided? I would think R-51 or the moderation team would've axed whatever thread/post would contain information like that and warned the poster, if it ever occured...

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 7th September 2005 14:47

--------------------

"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote

2- Where were links to a ROM ever provided? I would think R-51 or the moderation team would've axed whatever thread/post would contain information like that and warned the poster, if it ever occured...

There were several people who posted links to them at some point or another, but they were deleted by a mod before I got the chance to see it. And I go to this site more times a day than I can count; they are quick to dispose of those links.

--------------------

Is PJ

I personally think that Caesar and Silverlance have described it pretty well. I think we're pretty consistent here in how we handle these things, so I'm not quite sure what the issue actually is here. Can you explain why this question crossed your mind specifically in terms of CoN?

I'm thinking I'm going to move this to Comments and Suggestions since it is specifically regarding the site, and not gaming as a whole.

--------------------

"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Just one extra point to make here.

A patch for a ROM is acceptable because it shouldn't contain any original copyright code, only instructions to modify it, as has already been explained. For a patch to be any use, you already need to have obtained the ROM somehow, and the patch doesn't assist you in anyway in "criminal activity".

However, patches for any kind of software that are designed to circumvent copy protection and ease piracy would not be allowed. The difference and reason should be clear. (It's as much about keeping ourselves out of trouble as anything else.)

Discussion of any of this stuff is perfectly acceptable as long as you don't actually link or direct to such illegal material. Additionally, there's no rule against talking about things you've made using pirated software, because it would be completely unenforcable -- we'd have no way of knowing unless you came out and said it. So I'd advise you to just keep quiet in that case.

Quote (Silverlance @ 7th September 2005 07:36)

1- What is your point? I don't mean to ask this in a rude manner, I'm just curious what you're getting at. I've never seen anyone turning down an RM2k thread (AFAIK, mind you!)
2- Where were links to a ROM ever provided? I would think R-51 or the moderation team would've axed whatever thread/post would contain information like that and warned the poster, if it ever occured...

My point is, I want RPG Maker and cannot find it. I want it to be legal for someone to give it to me or tell me a hidden site where it is. I know that won't happen but I was still curious about the REAL difference. I've had my RM2k threads turned down.

There may not have been a direct link but I know peope have mentioned zophar.net to find FF6 rom hacks.

--------------------

Elena Indurain

Currently Playing: Suikoden II

I'm pretty sure modifying code without the publisher's permission could be considered illegal regardless of it's intent. I don't think square is going to come tear apart the Caves of Narshe over a few hacks to a game they made 10 years ago.

I don't think they are gonna come tear apart a site for distrubuting ROMs either, but I think it's perfectly clear why this site's admins don't want their presence here.

Not to mention the crowd it brings.....

--------------------

"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

Quote (Elena1999 @ 8th September 2005 01:00)

My point is, I want RPG Maker and cannot find it. I want it to be legal for someone to give it to me or tell me a hidden site where it is. I know that won't happen but I was still curious about the REAL difference. I've had my RM2k threads turned down.

There may not have been a direct link but I know peope have mentioned zophar.net to find FF6 rom hacks.

So your point is, you're upset that the rule that has been in place for at least a couple years exists - because now it affects you? Or am I misinterpreting you?

I think the real difference has been laid out for you. You are clearly asking for something less-than-legal, based on the way you're asking to have it given to you or a link to a "hidden" site sent your way. That alone could be worth a warning, btw.

I believe that Zophar.net offer(s|ed) up only IPS patches, which, as has been explained, are not in any way illegal. What you do with them is up to you, and it's none of our business and not our problem.

In short: Giving you RPGM2K would just about certainly be trafficking in illegal goods on this forum. Giving you ROM patches is not.

Also, as an aside, you might want to PM me about these RPGM2K threads that were "turned down." I have no record of them, and there's no mention of them in the ten page search results of all your posts, so I'm a bit lost.




--------------------

"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Quote

So your point is, you're upset that the rule that has been in place for at least a couple years exists - because now it affects you? Or am I misinterpreting you?

No that was not my point. I was just curious because at the time of my post, I didn't see any difference between the two. I actually didn't even know how rom hacks worked. But it doesn't really matter anymore. I found what I was looking for and no more needs to be said.

Quote

Also, as an aside, you might want to PM me about these RPGM2K threads that were "turned down." I have no record of them, and there's no mention of them in the ten page search results of all your posts, so I'm a bit lost.

I woudn't say that I made several posts and the only reason I could think of why it wasn't found was that maybe it was deleted. I'm sure it's been almost an entire year since I made a post about it. In fact now that I look back, it was around the end of January in which I actually made a post about RPG Maker 2k probably more of an asking where I could find it or if someone could send it to me. I know this because I have a PM message in my sent folder about when I asked someone to send it to me anyway. They didn't listen of course and don't bother punishing me about it now since that was like 7 months ago or something.

--------------------

Elena Indurain

Currently Playing: Suikoden II

Quote (The Ancient)

I'm pretty sure modifying code without the publisher's permission could be considered illegal regardless of it's intent.

The San Andreas "Hot Coffee" issue has got people thinking about this, but in general, developers/publishers have never complained. See the huge numbers of PC modifications for almost everything. You tend to see fewer for consoles because it's just a lot harder to actually do it.

Quote (The Ancient)

I don't think they are gonna come tear apart a site for distrubuting ROMs either

Not Square, but the IDSA go on frequent rampages, trampling over any site offering ROMs that they can find. Granted, it's usually the big archives that get in trouble, but it's not worth the risk for us.

EDIT: I am going to retract my post, please delete it.

This post has been edited by His Shadow on 4th October 2005 00:29

--------------------

His Divine Shadow

Got Lexx?

Click to vist FFF.