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I'd say she was more a catalist...

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The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

I like to think it's Sephiroth. There are many convincing arguments that it's JENOVA, and for most of those you can just dig around this forum (or search through Squall of SeeD's posts ). But the major reason I continue to think it's Sephiroth is because vengence for Aeris' death does not make as much sense if JENOVA is the main villain. If Sephiroth is controlling the clones, it makes sense for the party to want to exact vengence on him. If it's JENOVA, then SHE should be the focal point of the group's anger. But she's not, which leads me to believe the group's anger is rightly directed at Sephiroth. (Of course, if we assume it was JENOVA for argument's sake, it's not like that would be the first confusing storyline element in the game.)

I imagine we'll be getting more of an answer in Advent Children.

I'm just gonna rattle off some bullet points, since I don't have it in me to write a carefully constructed post at the moment:

- I agree with Mu that JENOVA was probably more of a catalyst that sparked Sephiroth's insanity. No doubt they communicated with one another, but I imagine that was more of a symbioitic relationship than a case of one side dominating the other.

Tiddles, back in the '04 part of this thread:

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I'd say it's almost certain that Jenova messed with his mind while he was near her in Nibelheim

I debated this point with SoS awhile ago. All indications, as far as I can tell, are that JENOVA was incapcitated at the time and wasn't contacting anyone. I think that Sephiroth went insane because he thought he had learned the truth about himself, that "truth" being that he was created in a lab and JENOVA was his "mother." The dialogue from that scene seems to indicate as much. To elaborate on Mu's catalyst point, it seems that Sephiroth found out about Hojo's experiments, learned he was somehow connected, and then began spiraling into madness by believing a bunch of half-truths. Once he was convinced of his origin, however false it was, he determined to carry out his "mother's" mission, and set about doing just that.

- Tiddles, again:

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Also, take a look at the design of Bizarro Sephiroth: it looks to me as if the Jenova on his back is meant to show that she's the force behind his actions

OK, but Safer Sephiroth doesn't. Also, the final battle is between Cloud and Sephiroth, or the projection of their willpower/minds/whatever, and there is no JENOVA present in that scene whatsoever.

- Finally, the clones take on the form of Sephiroth. This indicates to me that Sephiroth is the one pulling the strings from his encasement, making the clones look like him so that his enemies will know he is back. The only hole I have never been able to explain in my argument is why the clone on the boat to Costa Del Sol doesn't recognize Cloud if he is controlled by Sephiroth. Not sure. Maybe because Sephiroth didn't have complete control over the clones, in the same way JENOVA didn't have complete control over him. Maybe he could control them, project his voice into them, but there was still some degree of autonomy he couldn't fully eradicate until later. Unfortunately, no matter what your take on the situation, the story is so open-ended as to leave some sort of hole in even the most carefully constructed arguments.

I don't doubt that Sephiroth, in his insanity, thinks that he is doing things for his "mother." I also have no doubt the minds of JENOVA and Sephiroth are linked. But when I look at the game I just don't see JENOVA dominating Sephiroth. I think they are working in tandem. Maybe it is JENOVA's plan, but I steadfastly believe it is Sephiroth, of his own volition, putting that plan into action.

Quote (MetroidMorphBall)

Unfortunately, no matter what your take on the situation, the story is so open-ended as to leave some sort of hole in even the most carefully constructed arguments.

Once upon a time, I would have agreed, but I now think that I've determined all the intricacies of the storyline and that there really aren't so many holes in regard to the Sephiroth-JENOVA matter as once believed. In fact, I've now compiled an analyzation that should touch upon all of them. It may seem a bit presumptuous to think that I've figured it all out -- and perhaps it is -- but I believe I have, including on the matter of the Puppet Master Theorum. Before I get to that, though, I want to correct some of the errors in previous Posts.

Quote (Janus Zanretsuken)

He was considered a hero, but he fell.

...

I think he is the greater evil because he fell from being a mighty, noble, honorable man.

It should be kept in mind that he was considered a hero from Shin-Ra's point of view because in the Wutai War, he would have been pivotal in turning Wutai's defenders into cadavers. Shin-Ra -- controlling the media -- would then paint him as a heroic figure. He's a hero in name rather than reality.

Quote (BASSsic)

'Cept she wasn't counting on one thing. The Ancient. Aeris, knowing the situation, left the physical world, being intentionly cut down by Sephiroth, this way she could return to the Lifestream and let it know what needed to be done.

Aerith didn't sacrifice herself. In-game dialogue establishes this, as does an interview in the May 2003 issue of EDGE magazine with Yoshinori Kitase and Tetsuya Nomura. Here's a full explanation of why she didn't sacrifice herself:

(Taken from my site, Final Fantasy VII Analysis.)

Quote (Squall of SeeD)

  One of the larger misperceptions of Final Fantasy VII is that Aerith intentionally sacrifced herself for the Planet, knowing that her death would be needed in order to save the world. This was simply not the case.

In the May 2003 issue of EDGE magazine (issue 123), there is a six-page "Making of..." feature on Final Fantasy VII in which Yoshinori Kitase (Director and Co-Scenario Writer of Final Fantasy VII) and Tetsuya Nomura (Character Designer of Final Fantasy VII) were interviewed and asked about various points concerning Aerith's death. During the course of this interview, Nomura says the following:

"Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love. We found this was the case in both games and movies, both easter and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people?"

Kitase follows that up with this:
"In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad attached to it. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood."

(For proof of this magazine's existance, the "Making of..." feature, and the dialogue in the interview, refer to these images:

Nomura's thoughts concerning Aerith's death.
Nomura's thoughts concerning Aerith's death (Part 2).
Nomura's thoughts concerning Aerith's death (Part 3).
Kitase's Thoughts on Aerith's Death.
Kitase's Thoughts on Aerith's Death (Part 2).
Kitase's Thoughts on Aerith's Death (Part 3).
EDGE Magazine: May 2003; Issue 123.
"May 2003".
The Making of Final Fantasy VII.
The Making of Final Fantasy VII (Part 2).
The Making of Final Fantasy VII (Part 3).
The Making of Final Fantasy VII (Part 4).
The Making of Final Fantasy VII (Part 5).
The Making of Final Fantasy VII (Part 6).
The Making of Final Fantasy VII (Part 7).)

With Kitase's words about death being unexpected in mind, consider Cloud's dream in which he speaks to Aerith in the Sleeping Forest.  Aerith intended to handle JENOVA/Sephiroth on her own, and then come back:

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Aerith
        "And let me handle Sephiroth."

Aerith
        "And Cloud, you take care of yourself."

Aerith
        "So you don't have a breakdown, okay?"

Cloud
        "What is this place?"

Aerith
        "This forest leads to the City of the Ancients... and is called Sleeping Forest."

Aerith
        "It's only a matter of time before Sephiroth uses Meteor."
        "That's why I'm going to protect it. Only a survivor of the Cetra, like me, can do it."

Aerith
        "The secret is just up here."

Aerith
        "At least it should be. ...I feel it. It feels like I'm being led by something."

Aerith
        "Then, I'll be going now. I'll come back when it's all over."

Also consider Tifa's insight into her friend's intentions:

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Tifa
        "I wonder what Aerith felt... when she was on that altar...?"

Cloud
        "I'm sure she wanted to give her life for the planet..."

Tifa
        "Really? I wonder? I don't think that's it at all."
        "I think she didn't think she would die at all, but that she planned on coming back all along."
        "She always used to talk about the 'Next time'."
        "She talked about the future more that any of us..."

The in-game dialogue of Final Fantasy VII not only serves to contradict the notion that Aerith sacrificed herself, but the words of two of the game's core developers establishes that she did not sacrifice herself.

Quote (Spiffyness)

The second is Dr. Hojo, the slightly insane man who took over Ghast's job (and I don't think Ghast was evil, he respected the sanctity of life at least), and his GREED for wealth and power caused him to starte "The Jenova Project" and creat the SOLDIERS for Shinra, including Sephiroth.

Just for clarification, the JENOVA Project was Gast's, and it was under Gast's supervision that Lucrecia's womb was injected with JENOVA's Cells. Hojo and Lucrecia were Gast's assistants on the JENOVA Project. They offered up Lucrecia herself and their unborn child to experimentation, and Gast and Hojo carried out the injection process. It wasn't just Hojo:

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Cloud
        "Sephiroth is your son!?"

Hojo
        "Ha, ha, ha..."
        "I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova Project."
        "When Sephiroth was still in the womb, we took the cells of Jenova..."
        "HA, HA, HA!!"

With all that done, now to the matter of the Puppet Master Theorum.

I've come to realize that the argument that "Everything was being done by Sephiroth" is a flawed argument... and likewise is the argument that "Everything was being done by JENOVA." They were both doing it. Sephiroth was -- for all intents and purposes -- the embodiment of JENOVA's will, the Jesus Christ to its God, so to speak.

There are certain things that definitely point toward Sephiroth having been conscious (going out of the way to torture Cloud, no doubt because Sephiroth's pride had been hurt by losing to Cloud, or the Clones being given the side task of seeking out the Black Materia on their way to the Reunion), and others that definitely suggest action on JENOVA's end (the powers being used themselves, Sephiroth's irrational behavior in the Mt. Nibel Mako Reactor, Sephiroth's complete and utter change of personality once he joins with JENOVA at the end of the game).

I believe that what became Sephiroth's goal was already JENOVA's objective, and that one or both of them conceived the method of using the Black Materia to bring down Meteor while they were in the Lifestream. Both would have sought power. JENOVA, because of what it is, and Sephiroth because he had been used by everyone, including Gast, whom he trusted, and he was now out to simply take whatever he could and to hell with humanity that had mistreated him. It was a situation in which both benefitted from the other.

I believe this was because Sephiroth -- without JENOVA's power -- was pretty much only a stronger than average normal guy who could be taken out if attacked by a group, and because JENOVA needed a vessel to meld with that was "of" Gaia in order to absorb its Lifestream; in other words, it needed to become one with one of Gaia's children in order to have a vessel that could interact with and contain Gaia's Lifestream. With this in mind, I believe the melding concept was JENOVA's idea.


I believe that Sephiroth was carrying out the plan that had been conceived in the Lifestream with the power loaned him by JENOVA, and that when we're encountering the forms of him throughout most of the game, he is acting through those pieces of JENOVA, and, thus, it's truly him.

I would go so far as to say Sephiroth was independently carrying out his and/or JENOVA's plan up until the end of the game when he melds with JENOVA, at which time we see a complete change in his personality.


For a complete explanation of how I arrived at this conclusion, go to the following two pages on my site:

http://www.geocities.com/ff7analysis/control.html
http://www.geocities.com/ff7analysis/Symbolism.html


Normally, I'd copy and paste them into here, but they're so long that they would stretch the page -- and this Post -- to ridiculus proportions.

Quote (MetroidMorphBall)

The only hole I have never been able to explain in my argument is why the clone on the boat to Costa Del Sol doesn't recognize Cloud if he is controlled by Sephiroth. Not sure. Maybe because Sephiroth didn't have complete control over the clones, in the same way JENOVA didn't have complete control over him. Maybe he could control them, project his voice into them, but there was still some degree of autonomy he couldn't fully eradicate until later.

I've actually already accounted for this, I believe. It was JENOVA on the boat, the same as it was JENOVA in the Shin-Ra Headquarters. Sephiroth Clones were never altered to look like Sephiroth. The forms that looked like him were astral projections on two occasions, JENOVA's body on two occasions, and pieces of JENOVA's body on every other occasion. Go here for a full explanation:

http://www.geocities.com/ff7analysis/JENOVApieces.html

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 25th June 2005 08:04

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

This is something my buddy brought up with me in a rather drunken discussion we were having after I raised the points of this thread. Yes it was drunken, but I think we were still making sense and staying relevent. Eventually we both came upon a stumbling block as we discussed things. At Nibelheim, when Cloud picks up the Buster and rushes in to confront Sephiroth, he is stabbed clean by Sephiroth's blade, only for Sephiroth to say; "No. It cannot be!" (or similiar) before Cloud takes him out. Whats that all about? How is it possible and what is Sephi talking about?

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Whether you take the doughnut hole as a blank space or as an entity unto itself is a purely metaphysical question and does not affect the taste of the doughnut one bit.

http://slightly-bitter.blog.co.uk

Quote (Squall of SeeD @ 25th June 2005 02:07)

I've come to realize that the argument that "Everything was being done by Sephiroth" is a flawed argument... and likewise is the argument that "Everything was being done by JENOVA." They were both doing it.

I've come to a similar conclusion.

Quote (MetroidMorphBall @ 24th June 2005 19:47)

I also have no doubt the minds of JENOVA and Sephiroth are linked.  But when I look at the game I just don't see JENOVA dominating Sephiroth.  I think they are working in tandem.

I won't bother responding to the rest of your post because I agree with most of it, and the minute details I don't agree with are not worth arguing over. I've pretty much had it with dissecting FF7's plot. As always, though, I admire your dedication to resolving FF7's many plot discrepancies. It's certainly helped me to clarify most of the story.

By the way, you should consider linking to your website in your signature. I think a lot of people here, judging by the number of really long threads related to FF7’s plot, would be interested in reading it.

Quote (MetroidMorphBall @ 25th June 2005 10:38)

As always, though, I admire your dedication to resolving FF7's many plot discrepancies.  It's certainly helped me to clarify most of the story.

By the way, you should consider linking to your website in your signature.  I think a lot of people here, judging by the number of really long threads related to FF7’s plot, would be interested in reading it.

Thanks for the compliments there, Metroid, and I've taken your advice.

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 25th June 2005 19:02

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

it is my opinion that sephy couldnt really be considered the true evil, as he is hopelessly insane - he snapped harder then cloud, and it seems obvious to me that he either ignored or skipped either parts of books, or whole books, in the mansion - im quite sure that gast (not being the evil scientst, like hojo) wouldnt put falsifications in his reports - sephy is human - an altered human, but human all the same
as to who the true evil is? eh, take your pick - i coose corneo ;-)

oh, and sephy's hair is white, cuz there is, or was, a think in japan for pretty boys with white, grey, or silver hair - they're called b-somethings *shrug*

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-In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams
Slow and steady wont win at the gold saucer
-me

So, Squall, let me make sure I got this right: you say that Jenova and Sephiroth were both angry (for different reasons) but worked together for goals that were similar, though not identical. The means was thought up by Jenova, and executed by Sephiroth (with a great deal of help from Jenova).
So in the end, neither is quite perfect evil, but together, complete each other.

I'd have to agree with that, with one addition: if the human nature wasn't so inherently evil, the two never would have even formed (i.e., Sephiroth would never have sought revenge on a people if they didn't use him). Jenova might have been discovered, but ultimately done away with. But then again, not having any evil the hearts of all men while mortal is a fantasy.

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M777: lightweight 155mm howitzer
3/11 rules over all artillery!

Quote (bahamut0013 @ 25th June 2005 20:40)

I'd have to agree with that, with one addition: if the human nature wasn't so inherently evil, the two never would have even formed (i.e., Sephiroth would never have sought revenge on a people if they didn't use him). Jenova might have been discovered, but ultimately done away with. But then again, not having any evil the hearts of all men while mortal is a fantasy.

Thats abit contridictive. You think the human race is inherintly evil, but if it wasn't, it would've killed Jenova back in the day.

Jenova fell from the sky regardless of human nature. And wasn't killed because the last of the Cetra got to it before the WEAPONs, the reason they didn't is probably as simple as they wern't capable.

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Whether you take the doughnut hole as a blank space or as an entity unto itself is a purely metaphysical question and does not affect the taste of the doughnut one bit.

http://slightly-bitter.blog.co.uk

in my not so humble opinion, and i hope this doesnt anger too many people, the human race is NOT inherantly evil, that is something put out by the major monotheistic religions. for the most part, humankind is selfish - but selfishness isnt always a bad thing. also, nobody can care about everything at once - its impossible - our brains and powers of thought are not that vast - one day they might come close (we only use 10%, people) - even in our "selfless acts" we are doing it for our own peace of mind

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

cloud sends everyone away to think of why they are doing this, and they all come up with their reasons, which involve themselves or those they care about

i do believe however, that one can become evil, whether through nature (severe mental disorders) or nurture

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

sephy had both

eh, theres my 2 cents, take it as you will

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-In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams
Slow and steady wont win at the gold saucer
-me