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I know it sounds stupid,but didn't wiegraf and the knights of death fight alongside the hokuten in the 50 year war?Im just thinking,should wiegraf really be ramza's enemy,instead of ally.Because in the first chapter,he did stop gustav cold from kidnapping and killing elmdor.And he did reveal the truth to ramza the truth about dycedarg and zalbag.I personally think that he and ramza would make powerful allies.I'ts really confusing me .Please post reply's


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Can't we get a better mission than this.I HATE CATS!!!!

Quote from Naruto

Just because he's the enemy of my enemy, it doesn't mean he's my friend.

This post has been edited by Dark Paladin on 7th April 2005 02:54

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

Well you have to figure since he was working with the Death Corps and all that they would naturally be enemies. Then, Ramza goes ahead and

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

kills Wiegraf's sister.

So really any hopes of friendship part ways there.

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This is my world: (Got my second chapter up, 3rd Chapter about 80% complete)
http://www3.sympatico.ca/daniel876/homepage.html

See, but from my understanding, after the Fifty Years' War the Death Corps were treated like utter crap. So Wiegraf (and Miluda, and all the mistreated soldiers) are now enemies of the nobles who done them wrong. While

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Ramza eventually denounces his noble name

, that happens too late, and it's not enough for the tangled web of hostility that connect Ramza and Wiegraf (for example,

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Ramza having killed Wiegraf's sister).

Answer: Wiegraf really shouldn't have to be an enemy. He's not a bad person, but nevertheless he's got it in for Ramza. I suppose, then, that he's not a "villain" per se, but an enemy definitely.

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Some ghost of me might greet my son
the day he is delivered.


Eternal Sleep, Track 1-1: The Blue Planet

Isn't one of Wiegraf's lines something along the lines of "as long as you're a Beoulve, you are my enemy"?

Could've been Miluda that said it, but same family so it works either way.

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This is my world: (Got my second chapter up, 3rd Chapter about 80% complete)
http://www3.sympatico.ca/daniel876/homepage.html

Wiegraf is a villain through and through. Even if he has a few morals, he's still the leader of a band of killers (i.e. Death Corps) who seek vindication for their hard time after the war. Sure, he won't let Margueriff get ransom money off Elmdor, but the raid on Igros Castle has his OK written all over it.

He has a reason to be mad in the first chapter, but by the third chapter he's found new ideals to implement, so any excuses about the Fifty-Year's War are void. He's shown in a worse light during that chapter, moreso than what is told about his grudges with the nobility.

So, yeah, he's a villain--he just needed a new employer and new principles to cultivate those henious actions of his. As for him potentially being Ramza's friend or colleague, there's a better chance of Lightning Stab missing.

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

Well said, Shotgun. He starts out with a sense of honor distilled in him, no question.... but he is still an inherintly bad person.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Ok shotgun and hamedo,u don't have to rub it in <_<And that includes u darkpaladin

This post has been edited by Sam on 7th April 2005 20:42

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Can't we get a better mission than this.I HATE CATS!!!!

Quote from Naruto

I disagree wholeheartedly about Wiegraf being a villain. In Final Fantasy Tactics, it's not as easy to divide the human characters into "good" and "evil." Wiegraf was desperate, and angry, and fallible, but no, not a bad person. There are plenty of worse people in the game. Vormav? That guy (can't remember his name) who molested Rafa? Dycedarg, anybody?

Wiegraf tried to fight for what he believed in, but instead fell to temptation and vengeance. He's a tragic figure, is what he is.

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Some ghost of me might greet my son
the day he is delivered.


Eternal Sleep, Track 1-1: The Blue Planet

So,in other words cully,ur saying he is more of a victim right?

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Can't we get a better mission than this.I HATE CATS!!!!

Quote from Naruto

Wiegraf did what he thought was right. He followed what he believed in, no more no less. As it happens, his idea of right interfered with what you were trying to accomplish. It's a bit of a grey area. Along the way vengeance got into the act, which you can hardly blame him for, and he was willing to sell his soul to accomplish his ends, and overall irritate me with a disgustingly hard battle.

This post has been edited by MogMaster on 7th April 2005 22:11

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Quote (L. Cully @ 7th April 2005 14:28)

I disagree wholeheartedly about Wiegraf being a villain.  In Final Fantasy Tactics, it's not as easy to divide the human characters into "good" and "evil."  Wiegraf was desperate, and angry, and fallible, but no, not a bad person.  There are plenty of worse people in the game.  Vormav?  That guy (can't remember his name) who molested Rafa?  Dycedarg, anybody?

Wiegraf tried to fight for what he believed in, but instead fell to temptation and vengeance.  He's a tragic figure, is what he is.

He wasn't desperate throughout the whole game; only in the first chapter when he was at a disadvantage with the nobility and the position he was in. I refuse to believe that he was just "misunderstood" or that he "couldn't find himself" when he's showing retaliation by leading a group of mercenaries and criminals on a reign of terror. As a matter of fact, the Death Corps is actually noted as having caused the most trouble since the end of the Fifty-Year War.

Comparing him to people who are blatantly evil doesn't lessen the degree to which he is evil. His crimes certainly don't look better when compared to the people he falls in with.The giant chasm between his helpless character and his newly-acquired one (in Ch. 3) is when he has no trouble letting someone else's sister be kidnapped when he was so broken-hearted at his own. He gave up the causes he felt so strongly for in order to fix his situation--that's backsliding, not tragedy.

I don't see how Wiegraf "succumbed" to anything when he's fully conscious of what he's doing and what he's throwing away. He picks up a new set of things to believe in, and it's hard for me to see him as a victim because of that.

This post has been edited by Shotgunnova on 7th April 2005 23:46

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

The problem with Wiegraf in my opinion us that he lost his ideals. First he was trying to change the world to a better way, he was sort of a good person. But the problem is that he became just a stupid pawn of others. He forgot the true reason he was fighting for
(bringing Lucavi back is not going to end social differences )
And also, Wiegraf is like terrorists, specially comunist terrorist. He is trying to change the world, to make it better, but he is killing people and causing tons of trouble to the world to accomplish that ideal. "The goal doesn't justify the ways". ( And, I know what I am talking about, my country had a lot of comunist terrorist groups during the 80s and the early 90s, they killed thousands of people, specially police officers and poor peasants.)

Chapter 1 Wiegraf was a terrorist ( but he wasn't like the other members of the Death Corps, he was kind of a diplomatic terrorist), Chapter 3 Wiegraf was a man that had hunger for power and nothing else.
Wiegraf IS a villain because he is trying to cause troubles to others and then, instead of a villain, he becomes a stupid ( and the most frustating boss battle I have ever played ).

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x_X

Quote (Sam @ 7th April 2005 17:01)

So,in other words cully,ur saying he is more of a victim right?

Nah. I don't really buy into any sort of victimhood theory. What I'm really trying to emphasize is that FFT is a different world than other video games -- kind of like how Miyazaki's is a different world than other anime, to use an analogy. There are actually characters who can be both good and bad. Yeah, Wiegraf was a "bad guy" in the most juvenile sense of the word: you have to fight him, and he ends up choosing a path that leads to hatred and evil.

But I think there's a fundamental difference between him getting there then there is for a character like, say, Dycedarg. Wiegraf struggles to be honorable -- the reason he and Miluda are wreaking havoc in the beginning is to survive. They and their knights are pretty much starving to death. Later in the game, the hatred he has for the nobles and Ramza in general has festered, and what you see is the result -- but I think the struggle I mentioned above is the clearest indicator that he can't be pigeonholed as "villain." The same goes for Delita, and Zalbag. Not Dycedarg, who's just an assbeast from the beginning.



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Some ghost of me might greet my son
the day he is delivered.


Eternal Sleep, Track 1-1: The Blue Planet

He lost his ability to do right when he gave up caring about others. That's the foundation for what he and his men were striving for, albeit without choosing nonviolence. Intentions don't equate to goodness in my mind.

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

Well,what I meant by being a victim is that he ended up just becoming a pawn for lucavi,all because vormav promised him tons of power by joining the shrine knights.Then,velius comes along,promising wiegraf immortality,if he would meld with him to become one.U have to agree though,wiegraf and miluda both lived and grew up poor,and of course they blame it all on the nobles.Wiegraf is not really a villan,but just a victim being used for evil.

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Can't we get a better mission than this.I HATE CATS!!!!

Quote from Naruto

I agree with Cully on the "victim" theory... I think it's BS, both in videogames and life. Wiegraff is what he chose to be, not because of anyone else's influence on him.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

I think all of you make excellent points, but I will add that during Ch. 1, Weigraf has a serious personal beef against Dycedarg. He is against Nobles and the Beoulve family for the unfair treatment of commoners, but his main enemy is Dycedarg. He then turns his frustrations toward Ramza

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Ramza killed Miluda as a Death Corps officer with nothing personal between the two of them, just on different sides. Weigraf has a vengeance against Ramza for killing Miluda, ignoring anything else. When Weigraf becomes Velius in Riovannes Castle, he says he couldn't care less anymore about Miluda's murder, just that he wants what Lucavi wants.

This post has been edited by FabulousFreebird on 8th April 2005 13:00

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"Thought I was dead, eh? Not until I fulfill my dream!"
Seifer Almasy


"The most important part of the story is the ending."
Secret Window


"Peace is but a shadow of death."
Kuja

Wiegraf is quite simply a victim of reality. He tries to fight for fair treatment and food because he and his troops are all starving to death while the nobles have feasts and warm beds to sleep in. Then Ramza kills his sister so he lusts for revenge. When he is on the verge of death and the stones speaks to him... come on guys, if anyone was offering you a chance to SURIVIVE would you take it? I think it would be pretty painful being busted up by a sword. When he is morphed with Lucavi its human nature to become mad with power. when someone has power they just want more. HUMAN NATURE. Just like george bush, hes got everything going for him but then he makes deals with terrorists, thats swell.

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Peace sells... but Whos buyin? -Megadeth


You wont be saying that when you get a
lead pipe across the head -James (Darkness Illusions II)

Quote

Just like george bush, hes got everything going for him but then he makes deals with terrorists, thats swell.

Bravo, my friend.

Moderator Edit

Good work adding to the topic. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 21st April 2005 00:24

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A hero is somone who steps up when everyone else backs down.

Your greatest adversary hides inside your mirror.

Weigraf is really a victim of the Lucavi, just because of the fact that he ended up selling his soul to the devil to become (kinda) invincible. That was the bad screw up on his part.

And, he really is the villian because you can only make the choices you make in life, and he screwed it up by trying to kill Ramza instead of Dycedarg. Had he killed Dycedarg

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

You wouldn't have to fight the stupid Zodiac monster that Dycedarg becomes.

Insightful, no?

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"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America - there is the United States of America. There is not a black America and a white America and latino America and asian America - there's the United States of America."
~Barack Obama

Quote

From Divineknight-

Just like george bush, hes got everything going for him but then he makes deals with terrorists, thats swell

Idiotic statement. How, exactly, does Wiegraf have "everything going for him"? Let's examine everything he had "going in his favor", shall we?

He was betrayed by the nobles at the end of the 50-year war. This forced him to live the life of a pauper, in the muck and mire of society.

He forms a rebellion, only to see the end result of it being the death of his sister and the destruction of all who followed him at Fort Zeakden.

He allies with the church for a time and regains a few shreds of his dignity, though he must have known that the church was only using his skills and his hate towards Ramza as a tool to achieve their own ends, and that they did not genuinely care for him as an individual.

As the end result of his partnership with the church, we see him bruised, bloody, and battered... on the steps of death's door. This is the end result of his life, due in part to the choices that he has made and in part to the pitiful lot that life has given him. He makes a deal with Lucavi because his life has NOT gone so well, and he is NOT in the best situation because of it. Perhaps, had he led a better, more noble life... he could have accepted death and not made a deal with Lucavi?

I think your quote I posted above was a cheap political shot, that can in no way logically be tied in to the topic of this thread.

This post has been edited by Hamedo on 21st April 2005 20:14

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Wiegraf's psychology is simple enough. At first, he was a man fighting for everything he belived in when he saw no other way, just like Ramza did in the later chapters. However, Wiegraf lost everything in that fight and failed to achive his end goals anyway. Shattered from his losses and deciding that his ideals weren't worth anything anymore, he lost faith in them and decided to do anything to get ahead, thus becoming a minor villian in the story. Kinda sounds like Delita now that I think about it, except without a grand plan to get to the top. That sister theme is really important in this game it would seem.

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Role reversal at its finest.

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Hamedo-
I think your quote I posted above was a cheap political shot, that can in no way logically be tied in to the topic of this thread.

Hey, woah, Hamedo! Settle down!

Weigraf made all of those decisions, so he screwed himself up. He didn't really have everything going for him, just the Holy Stones and Lucavi.

This post has been edited by ArcKnight5000 on 22nd April 2005 12:45

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"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America - there is the United States of America. There is not a black America and a white America and latino America and asian America - there's the United States of America."
~Barack Obama

Check your PM, Arcknight5000.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Quote (Hamedo @ 22nd April 2005 07:08)

Check your PM, Arcknight5000.

Quote (ramza_beoulve @ 20th April 2005 17:23)

Bravo, my friend.

Please, everybody, note these posts. Now note why they don't belong. If you're not adding to the actual topic, dooooon't poooooost. It's that simple, and it's been happening way too much lately.

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

Quote (Sam @ 6th April 2005 21:25)

I know it sounds stupid,but didn't wiegraf and the knights of death fight alongside the hokuten in the 50 year war?Im just thinking,should wiegraf really be ramza's enemy,instead of ally.Because in the first chapter,he did stop gustav cold from kidnapping and killing elmdor.And he did reveal the truth to ramza the truth about dycedarg and zalbag.I personally think that he and ramza would make powerful allies.I'ts really confusing me .Please post reply's

I don't really know what everyone else said.. but - OF COURSE

listen carefully,

he did not stop gustav from KIDNAPPING elmdor, he just killed him for it (jey word: killed)

he had a valiant cause in the beginning, but oh yeah- he sold his soul to the devil. hmmm... brain puzzler here.

now - what is it that wiegraf said to ramza at riovanes? oh yeah:

" I don't give a damn about Miluda's murder, I jsut want to hear the screams and death cries of humans, I want to bring chaos to the world! But don't worry, I'll kill you myself!"

i dunno, if you ask me he's a villain.

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[img]http://img83.exs.cx:81/img83/2/ramzaanddelita2rayni7wx.jpg[/img]

Well, in all fairness.... that was Lucavi talking, not Weigraf.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

how so? I'll kill yo umyself? no, that was wiegraf saying that he wasn't going to use lucavi, that was separating himself from lucavi for the time being and killing ramza out of spite.

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[img]http://img83.exs.cx:81/img83/2/ramzaanddelita2rayni7wx.jpg[/img]

Well,kingdelita,after all,hamedo has a point.Thats wasn't wiegraf talking at all,that was lucavi.Velius was just using wiegrafs body at the time,so yeah,hamedo's right.

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Can't we get a better mission than this.I HATE CATS!!!!

Quote from Naruto