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Even if they had gotten water to her, she would have been unable to drink it and would have probably choked on it and "drowned" (a single glass of water can mean a lot when you're unable to perform basic actions such as swallowing.) Even if she could have, it would have only delayed the unevitable and prolonged a suffering she is not even feeling.

Arguably, putting a bullet through her head would be more "humane" than letting her dry out and die, but people are too scared to take such a drastic action. What sounds better? "Yeah, she finally passed away yesterday from not having that tube in her. Poor woman." or "So they shot her in the head. Glad that's over with, sheesh."? In any event, she isn't conscious enough to feel herself wasting away (AFAIK; this rather backwater country of mine doesn't get much coverage on these stories and choses to use its newspapers' place to exhibit blunders of the US and Bush and how our services are crap.)

I can't say I get the whole pro-life approach to this... Between a mercy killing or waiting for years for something that just isn't happening while she continues to waste away and give everyone around her a daily emotional downer, as well as take huge bites out of their wallets, I hardly see any reason to keep someone alive when they're in that state. Other than the blind and unreasonable "But it's *life*! You can't do something like that, *ever*!!" :/

Maybe I just need coffee.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Rangers51 @ 24th March 2005 06:18)

My thought is, "if only there was a way to dissolve the marriage." It's clear that the husband either can't handle or doesn't want to handle the responsibility any more; either of those is not exactly the strong thing to do, but it's true, so might as well move on from it. If the marriage was no more, the husband could move on and do whatever he wants with his life, and the parents could have their daughter hooked up to a feeding tube until they die, after which she could become a ward of the state (who would probably quite quickly remove the tube under public pressure to not shoulder the expense). It seems like everyone wins there but Terri, and I don't think anyone involved cares about her "winning" at this point anyway.

Come to think of it, Rangers51 probably has the most practical answer. Indeed, it kinda lets the husband off easy to go onto his next wife (as I've heard here), but it would be the speediest solution that would dissolve the tension and get the issue out of public discourse. Doing so would immediately kill the conflict of interest between the parents and the husband (unless Terri's husband simply wants her dead, and is willing to avoid divorce just to have her dead--but that would simply mean he's just being evil).

After thinking about this issue a lot more than I would had CoN's Terri Schaivo topic not existed, isn't she, in some extent, in that state where the soul has left the body, but the body hasn't stopped running yet? (From a spiritual standpoint, that is.)

And what was it that caused her current condition anyways?

(And how the heck is her last name spelled?)

--------------------

Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Quote (Rangers51 @ 24th March 2005 06:18)

I stopped to reconsider this issue yesterday afternoon. I'm still no closer to deciding what's right, and I'm glad I'm not a judge. I still feel that the parents are clinging to a vain hope, and having learned more about the husband here (and on NPR, by God ^_-), I can safely say that he is indeed a bastard. But there's still no right answer.

My thought is, "if only there was a way to dissolve the marriage." It's clear that the husband either can't handle or doesn't want to handle the responsibility any more; either of those is not exactly the strong thing to do, but it's true, so might as well move on from it. If the marriage was no more, the husband could move on and do whatever he wants with his life, and the parents could have their daughter hooked up to a feeding tube until they die, after which she could become a ward of the state (who would probably quite quickly remove the tube under public pressure to not shoulder the expense). It seems like everyone wins there but Terri, and I don't think anyone involved cares about her "winning" at this point anyway.

Why not just divorce her and let her parents deal with her? That's what I've been thinking the past few days.

--------------------

The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

Quote (Tidu-who @ 24th March 2005 13:11)

Why not just divorce her and let her parents deal with her? That's what I've been thinking the past few days.

Divorce requires consent of the two parties involved. Little tough to get from someone who can't communicate. Funny that it's harder to do that than get the other partner's feeding tube removed, huh?

Edit

Goz has me beat, never realized that.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 24th March 2005 19:11

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Quote (Rangers51 @ 24th March 2005 13:27)

Divorce requires consent of the two parties involved. Little tough to get from someone who can't communicate. Funny that it's harder to do that than get the other partner's feeding tube removed, huh?

as i told in chat,

"i looked into the florida code a bit more, and i don't see any reason why mr schiavo cannot dissolve his marraige. he does indeed speak for her, as the guardian of an incapacitated person."

but i wonder why the issue has never been addressed -- it seems to be a most promising solution. i suppose he really would rather have her dead just *that* much.

Mr. Shiavo has cited religious reasons for his stance of not divorcing Terri.


Of course... this flies in the face of him cheating on her and euthanizing her, which are also against Catholic church doctorine, which is/was Terri's affiliation.

Edit

Just got done checking out some online articles... Terri is expected to expire much sooner than the end of next week, which was the initial thought of the experts. If the feeding tube is not reinserted soon, they doubt she will last through the weekend.

This post has been edited by Hamedo on 24th March 2005 22:42

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

I think it's just sad that of all the people making arguements and judgements and decisions, the only people who are looking out for Terri are her parents. Everyone else is motivated by political game, or legality, or whatever.

What a socienty we have become.

EDIT: let me rephrase. I think that the Schindlers are the only ones genuinely looking out for Terri's welfare.

This post has been edited by bahamut0013 on 26th March 2005 05:39

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M777: lightweight 155mm howitzer
3/11 rules over all artillery!

That is, of course, if you believe that "looking out" for her involves keeping her alive in a perpetually vegetative state.

It's all a matter of points of views. In the end everyone is just as right as they're wrong.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (bahamut0013 @ 25th March 2005 00:26)

I think it's just sad that of all the people making arguements and judgements and decisions, the only people who are looking out for Terri are her parents. Everyone else is motivated by political game, or legality, or whatever.

What a socienty we have become.

EDIT: let me rephrase. I think that the Schindlers are the only ones genuinely looking out for Terri's welfare.

That's kinda true, sadly.

Although,...has there been any news on this issue, or has the fad died down already?

Edit

I see. The fad has FINALLY died.

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 28th March 2005 01:04

--------------------

Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

I think if it keeps her parent happy then why? the patient no longer cares anymore beucase her upper level thinking levels are gone besides its not like he hasnt moved on

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procastinate now, dont put it off

Normally, I try to stray away from politically packed topics, as I think people come here to relax in a welcoming environment. However, after reading some of your posts, and seeing that a lot of people are sincerely thinking hard about it, I thought I'd put in my thoughts and impressions as well. Now, I don't follow sensational news, so I can't pretend to know a lot about the case, or make any judgments about the 'quality' of her life or the moral character of her husband; therefore, my thoughts follow from general feelings on matters of life and death.

From what little I've seen, she reminds me greatly of my first cousin, who was also in a 'persistant vegitative state.' I won't go so far as to say that most, all, or even a great many of such people have similar chances as my cousin, but I will present his story. My cousin was hit by a car, and entered a coma for some years. The doctors said he was in a 'persistant vegitative state' and offered the option of ending his life by removing him from the resperator. My aunt, for whatever reason, choose to pay to keep him in this state. Had she let him die at that time, I could not have found falt in her actions; artificially pumping his lungs (and at some points, his heart) is going above and beyond what is nessesary. However, she chose to keep him in this state. To our amazement, after several years signs of his 'awakening' started to develope. After years upon years of (ongoing, even to this day) physical training and therapy, he has reclaimed something of a life. He can walk with asistance (if you can call it that), but he mostly travels via a motorized chair. He communicates very slowly through a device called a 'liberator'. He cannot talk, but expresses emotion crudly through what look to be blank eyes, dumb stares, and gaping semi-smiles. Though many of use (and probably even himself, before the accident) would probably state that they don't want to be kept alive through 'heroic' means, just to end up like that, I think he would disagree with such sentiments.
He greatly enjoys playing cards, though it is a tedious task for all involved. He sometimes can play turn based computer games, and has tried his hand, somewhat successfully, at mastering chess. His mind is forever that of a teenager of the age when he was struck, but he holds his own in conversations (if you have the time and patience to talk to him) and strove valiently to earn a bachelor's degree. Though his life is hard, both on himself and upon him family, neither would agree that it would be better were he to have died at any point along the way, or to be dead now. He has found that life, even under his current circumstances, is worth living.
Terri reminds me greatly of my cousin. All of her manerisms and expressions match his completely. Her current state seems much better than my cousin's, even after months of physical therapy. At least it seems she can move her head a bit, smile a bit, look at someone she might recognize, and generally show signs that there is something going on in her head. From a personal standpoint, I would have to say that Terri deserves a chance to rethink what she might have at one point said. She probably has found that life is not as bad as she would have thought it to be (here, I'm assuming from personal experience that she can think in the state she is in). I believe that all people will find life worth living, even in such cases.

There's also another aspect. I believe that providing food is not a heroic act. Now, I can see how this could be debated, so I'm not going to try and provide rebuttles to any challenges to this viewpoint. Besides, I'm not here to prove my opinion to anyone, only to add my thoughts and hear the thoughts of others, and hopefully we'll all come to a greater understanding of the subject and it's many implications. Though providing food through a tube is a medical proceedure, I do not put it on the same level as pumping a heart, or respirating the lungs. To die of a heart failure, or for your brain to stop sending the message to your diaphram to breath in and out, is a natural occurance. To die of hunger is something outside the body, it happens when a person no longer is able to put food into his/her own mouth. If my little newphew were left alone in a house full of food, yet he died because he could not crawl to where the food was on the floor two feet away from him, I would not count this a natural death. Also, were my cousin to be placed in a supermarket, and deprived of his motorchair, I would not count his death via starvation to be natural either. One could make the argument, I'm sure, that in both cases nature had deprived them of the means to nurish themselves, but I find this view to be unacceptable. Place a man with a paralized diaphragm or misfiring heart in such a situation and watch them die, and then I would be able to agree that the death was natural (wether or not one could or should have helped that person is a move involved matter).

After both of these long explanations, I could also provide you with two shorter answers as well:
1. I have a fundamental belief as part of my philosophy, which I live by, that life is essentially good. I don't care for discussion as to the 'Quality of life'. I believe that all such judgements are arbitrary. Given the choice to exist or not exist, I believe that any person with the ability to think clearely (by this, I mean not overpowered by fear of the unknown, etc.) will choose to exist; I believe that it is hardwired into the human person. If ever I am in any situation where the question comes up wehter or not I would choose to live or die, as long as I am still alive (I think the only real way to tell is brain waves, but this is just a hypothosis) I would choose to live. I assert that life is good.

2. The Pope agrees that providing food and hydration is not 'heroic means,' and therefore he would state that depriving someone of either in a medical environment where both could be obtained is morally disordered.

I hope that my opinions and beliefs can add positively to our conversation, and provide everyone [who chooses to read such a big post] with some extra matter for thought.

Quote (Blythe @ 27th March 2005 23:35)

I think if it keeps her parent happy then why? the patient no longer cares anymore beucase her upper level thinking levels are gone besides its not like he hasnt moved on

It can cost up to $8000 a day to the state to keep some comatose/mentally disabled patients in Terri's situation alive. This is a rather important sum for what's basically a lump of flesh that performs basic biological functions. If the state had been paying (up to) $8000 a day to make me happy for 15 years, I'd definitely back down after such a long time.

When comatose and brought out of it, your brain is basically "rebooted" and begins to awaken by climbing through a certain scale of cognitive activity called the Rancho scale. At the lower levels, you aren't conscious as such, and merely respond to direct needs and desires (eat/drink/breathe/excrete/reproduce). Barring excepetional cases, recovery is all but impossible after 30 days of being comatose or at one of the lower Rancho levels.

Point being that they're paying massive amounts of money to keep alive something that's simply not going to happen barring an actual full-blown miracle.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (gozaru~ @ 24th March 2005 13:41)

"i looked into the florida code a bit more, and i don't see any reason why mr schiavo cannot dissolve his marraige.  he does indeed speak for her, as the guardian of an incapacitated person."

but i wonder why the issue has never been addressed -- it seems to be a most promising solution.  i suppose he really would rather have her dead just *that* much.

The parents did file a motion for divorce in either late Feb/early March. What became of it, I don't know. I imagine it was thrown out of court.

As for why he can't dissolve the marriage--that's a good question. I actually asked an attorney that does a lot of article 81 NYS guardianship. Keeping in mind that he's not well versed in FL law, he told me it was a potential conflict of interest since Michael Shiavo would represent both sides. It would basically go to court as "Michael Schiavo v. Michael Shiavo, Guardian of Theresa Schiavo." He said if a New York judge saw that he would ask that a new guardian be appointed before he let the matter proceed.

Of course, this is assuming Michael Schiavo wants to proceed with the divorce in the first place. If he does, he could easily cooperate with the parents to have a new guardian instated and proceed with the divorce. It's obvious, as you said, that he really does want her to die. Either he truly believes that's what she'd want, or he has ulterior motives (isn't there a medical malpractice suit involved in this? I don't know FL law either, but assuming it's similar to NY her share would pass to him by right of election even if there's no will).

Personally, I believe if someone is only going to suffer interminably, then they should be allowed to die peacefully. But I question the husband's motives in this case. Of course, I can't say I've been following the matter too closely.

Basically, it comes down to what R51 said: everyone should have a Living Will to avoid a situation like this. Likewise, everyone should have a Health Care Proxy, so that it's entirely clear who you want making medical decisions for you.

This post has been edited by KefkaLives on 29th March 2005 06:36

Terri Schiavo has died, thirteen days after her feeding tube was removed.

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

Although I don't like Bush, his statement made today was really strong. Talking about how her life was at the mercy of others, the strong should protect the weak. It was well put.

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This is my world: (Got my second chapter up, 3rd Chapter about 80% complete)
http://www3.sympatico.ca/daniel876/homepage.html

Agreed, Ractoh. God rest her soul.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Interestingly enough, the Bush brothers pulled out of the controversy quickly after polls showed that most Americans didn't believe that Pres. Bush should be involved in the debate (I believe the figures were around 70%).

It sucks that there didn't seem to be a more "humane" death to be in store for her, although someone earlier posed the "What looks worse on the headlines?" question: Terri Schiavo 'slipping away' or Terri Schiavo being lethally injected/shot/whatever; clearly most Americans would feel more comfortable seeing that she 'slipped away', even though one (assuming she could feel anything at all) would be exponentially more painful.

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SPEKKIO: "GRRR...That was most embarrassing!"

Gotta love a society that values the "Right to Die" over the Right to live.

--------------------

The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

I've been inspired by the last two posts to start a new thread on something that I've been wondering about for some time concerning the folks in here. Look for it soon.

The_Pink_Nu1.... That is not how it happened. President Bush's involvment ended after he signed the emergency legislation to get the case heard by a federal judge and out of the FLorida court system. He continued to speak out about her situation for the duration, but that was his only legal action.

Jeb has tried throughout to find a loophole to save Terri. This climaxed with his attempts to get the Florida Dept. of Social Services to take custody of Terri from Michael, claiming he was an unfit guardian for her. When this was shown to be legally impossible, he acknowledged that even as governor he was powerless. He then stepped back, as the President already had, and took no further actions other than to speak out in public on Terri's behalf.

Your claim that the Bush brothers ducked out of the controversy because their approval ratings were slipping is false.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Quote (Tidu-who @ 1st April 2005 01:25)

Gotta love a society that values the "Right to Die" over the Right to live.

Which society would that be? The latter is written into the constitution of the United States.

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

Quote (The Ancient @ 1st April 2005 11:28)

Quote (Tidu-who @ 1st April 2005 01:25)

Gotta love a society that values the "Right to Die" over the Right to live.

Which society would that be? The latter is written into the constitution of the United States.

i believe the case is that the constitution does not necessarily represent the values of the american society.

edit: accidentally capitalised "american."

This post has been edited by gozaru~ on 1st April 2005 20:53

Quote (Hamedo @ 1st April 2005 08:09)

I've been inspired by the last two posts to start a new thread on something that I've been wondering about for some time concerning the folks in here.  Look for it soon.

The_Pink_Nu1....  That is not how it happened.  President Bush's involvment ended after he signed the emergency legislation to get the case heard by a federal judge and out of the FLorida court system.  He continued to speak out about her situation for the duration, but that was his only legal action.

Jeb has tried throughout to find a loophole to save Terri.  This climaxed with his attempts to get the Florida Dept. of Social Services to take custody of Terri from Michael, claiming he was an unfit guardian for her.  When this was shown to be legally impossible, he acknowledged that even as governor he was powerless.  He then stepped back, as the President already had, and took no further actions other than to speak out in public on Terri's behalf. 

Your claim that the Bush brothers ducked out of the controversy because their approval ratings were slipping is false.

We know that Jeb Bush's approval rating slipped a full 8% in the past two weeks. We also know that polls show 70% of Americans do NOT believe the Bush brothers should've been involved in the case. The figures speak for themselves, and anyone that can put two and two together can see that because of the Schiavo case, their ratings dropped. Finally, in the last week preceding Schiavo's death, their wasn' t nearly as much flurry (or even talk) in the White House as there had been. Relax, man, it's political maneuvering. You can't honestly think either man would spend over 8% of his acquired politcal capital on one person's death. It's a cynical outlook, but generally with cynicism comes truth.

This post has been edited by The_Pink_Nu1 on 1st April 2005 22:41

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SPEKKIO: "GRRR...That was most embarrassing!"

Repeat all you like.... it's still false.

And this is comming from a Bush hater, too..... my mother would be so disappointed.

The approval ratings, according to the Washington Post, started to slip immediately once the President stepped in. I'm not arguing that their approval slipped. It's a known fact that it did.... so I'm not sure why you reitterated the point in your last post. What I took issue with was the claim that the two brothers took themselves out of the incident due to the loss of approval points.

The President, to his credit, stayed his course nonetheless. Jeb did him one better, though. Jeb had time to actually see the effects on the President's popularity once he stepped into the situation, and that still did not deter him from trying to save Terri himself.

Say what you will about Bush and company..... more likely than not, the more vile it is, the more I'll agree with you on it. In this instance, though, the liberal portrayal of the Bush brothers bowing out due to political pressure is simply.... irrefutably.... untrue.

God rest Terri's soul. I'm glad the circus is over.

This post has been edited by Hamedo on 1st April 2005 22:45

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

I reiterated to try to make a point, but apparently neither of us will change the others' minds. Oh well. Agree to disagree.

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SPEKKIO: "GRRR...That was most embarrassing!"

Yesterday, Fox News put up the results of a poll: the nation was pretty evenly split on whether they think she should have been allowed to die or not. There was also a question on whther or not Bush should have meddled: about 70% said yes, 10 said no, the rest undecided.
Politically, they did what they should have: done what they could to the limit of thier power, then when they hit that limit, not try to overstep thier bounds.

But that's trivial. The point is, this mess shouldn't have had to be so large.

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M777: lightweight 155mm howitzer
3/11 rules over all artillery!

My question is did this story appear years ago? I never saw this story until two weeks ago when they announced that they were going to remove the feeding tube. Can you believe that the government wants a braindead woman to testify in court? When I think about all the stupid things the government has done they have to go and do something even stupider... Stupid Republicans... God bless Terri Schiavo and the Schiavo family...

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Yunalesca: "Hope is...comforting. It allows us to accept fate, however tragic it might be. "

Yunalesca: "Poor creature. You would throw away hope. Well... I will free you before you can drown in your sorrow. It is better for you to die in hope than to live in despair. Let me be your liberator. "

Quote (Blizzard_Wizard8 @ 3rd April 2005 10:22)

My question is did this story appear years ago? I never saw this story until two weeks ago when they announced that they were going to remove the feeding tube.

Yes, I remember seeing side stories on her a few different times over the years.

Quote

Can you believe that the government wants a braindead woman to testify in court? When I think about all the stupid things the government has done they have to go and do something even stupider... Stupid Republicans...   God bless Terri Schiavo and the Schiavo family...

What the crap?....

--------------------

The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

I do believe Tidu-who that what Blizzard_Wizard8 is saying is that the government can't actually expect her to testify. You probably saw footage of the woman on the news, she was braindead. What good would summoning a woman whose mind is basically mush to the court going to accomplish? How could someone in her state, living off a feeding tube, possibly testify in court? All she could really do was smile...

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This is my world: (Got my second chapter up, 3rd Chapter about 80% complete)
http://www3.sympatico.ca/daniel876/homepage.html

Quote (Racthoh @ 3rd April 2005 22:41)

I do believe Tidu-who that what Blizzard_Wizard8 is saying is that the government can't actually expect her to testify. You probably saw footage of the woman on the news, she was braindead. What good would summoning a woman whose mind is basically mush to the court going to accomplish? How could someone in her state, living off a feeding tube, possibly testify in court? All she could really do was smile...

Do you actually believe that this was what the government asked?

--------------------

The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

As for the point on the last few posts, I'm in the same boat as Tidu-who - What the heck are y'all talking about?

This post has been edited by Dark Paladin on 5th April 2005 04:19

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer