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I did not see a topic on this yet but if there is, I apologize and you can erase it.

Anyways, if you live in the US and a fan of sports then of course you have heard about the steriod issue in baseball. Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire are the two biggest names so far with this issue. Both claim they never used steriods but it is known that McGwire used androstine, a muscle supplement. However, after his disasterous Senate hearing, his credability went downhill fast.

Now this is not a debate over steriods in baseball. Instead it is about whether you believe Bonds and McGuire should be allowed in the Baseball Hall of Fame if it is true they did use steriods, which looks like it is.

In my opinion, they should not be. It is a major unfair advantage taking steriods, even other supplements like andro unless everyone does it. If one of them should be allowed in I would say Bonds. I say this and I am not a fan of Bonds at all but the fact remains that McGwire, who was always considered a power-hitter, hit most of his home runs in his last 4 seasons. Bonds, on the otherhand, was an All-Star as a skinny Pittsburg Pirate, before hitting 60 homers a season. But again if it is found that both did take steriods, then they should not be in the Hall of Fame and I wish they could erase their records.

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McGwire--no. Bonds--yes. For the reasons you list:

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If one of them should be allowed in I would say Bonds. I say this and I am not a fan of Bonds at all but the fact remains that McGwire, who was always considered a power-hitter, hit most of his home runs in his last 4 seasons. Bonds, on the otherhand, was an All-Star as a skinny Pittsburg Pirate, before hitting 60 homers a season.

Bonds arguably had a HoF career going beforehand.

But honestly, I wish they could just give the record back to Maris, and this is coming from a diehard Met fan/Yankee hater.

Neither should be allowed in, IMHO.

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Actually, McGwire was an all-star twelve times. Including his first six years in the league. Including his rookie of the year performance in 1987. Do I think he used steroids? Yeah, unfortunately, I do - later in his career, and not likely during his early years with Canseco, as Jose believes. And it really hurts me to say that, because I'm not ashamed to say that Mark McGwire was my baseball hero when I was a little kid, and I skipped class the day he got traded to my St. Louis Cardinals so I could go buy a McGwire Cardinals jersey (and I was 17 by then ).

Honestly, though, I think McGwire was a decent shot to hit the Hall of Fame even before his home run explosion of the last four years or so of his career. Note that he hit 49 dingers in his rookie season - Gabe will tell you that roids don't work that fast, and if you see pics of him from his rookie season, he was big, but he wasn't roid-big, I don't think. Just my slightly biased impression.

Bonds, meanwhile, should not have gotten into the Hall based on his offense, no matter what. His HR totals were good, but not exceptional, until the last couple years. However, I think he is an fine fielder, evidenced very much by his many Gold Gloves. If you want to vote him into the hall, vote him in for that - it's one thing that he does better than McGwire.

I think McGwire hurt himself really badly with his ridiculous testimony, and I am embarrassed to be one of his fans at the moment. But all that testimony really did, in my eyes, was take him from being a charismatic ambassador of the game down to Bonds' level - Bonds has always been a petulant, whiny, excuse-making player.

So, I think when it comes down to it, I think even if you stripped them of their records, both would be likely candidates to get in. First ballot? Maybe, maybe a bit more in Bonds' favor, but questionable even so. Remember, ten or so years ago Pete Rose had everyone against him too. This scandal will fade, and more objective voters will be the ones who vote. So don't be surprised if they do get in eventually, but I think that they should both be restricted from the glory of first ballot entry, and I think their plaques should mention the alleged issues. It's been eleven years since I last visited Cooperstown, but I don't think their plaques would be the first to not give only glowing reviews of the players.

My choice: McGwire over Bonds by a nose.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 29th March 2005 15:33

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I love baseball. I love Mark McGwire. And I hate Barry Bonds.

It's a difficult decision. So many people are torn between it. You can make arguments for three cases: It wasn't technically against the rules at that point in the game, so they should both be in, Bonds should be in because "he had a Hall of Fame career before he took steroids", and to not put either of them in because they comprimised the game by playing at a heightened level caused by steroids. Take your pick, because there probably won't be any other answers coming.

It's hard for me to choose what to happen because of the fact that they did take steroids, but I still think they should be in the Hall of Fame, both of them. For one summer in 98, McGwire (and Sosa) captivated the viewing audience with their back and forth home run battle. Now, someone will say "But it was on steroids". Think back to that summer. It just didn't matter. Also, there is not a player in the 500 home run club left out of the Hall.
I hate Barry Bonds. Part of the reason is because I don't like the Giants, but most of it deals with the fact that Bonds is just a huge jerk, probably the biggest one in the world of sports today. But even deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Juiced or not juiced (probably juiced though), 700 homeruns is nothing to sneeze at. And like I said, no member of the 500 homer club is out.
Funny I bring that up though. For the argument that "Bonds had a Hall of Fame career before he was juiced", how exactly is it that you know just when Bonds started juicing up? The consenus seems to think around 1999 or 2000, but who knows, it could've been any time earlier. But let's assume that he started in 1999, as Neal and I deduced, if you take away all of his juiced seasons, Bonds wouldn't even had reached the 500 homerun plateau. He'd be about 50 or so away from it. Now we all know he would've reached it eventually without the 'roids. But it's just something I'd point out.

At the end of the day, I still think both McGwire and Bonds should be elected to Cooperstown. They did damage the game by infusing themselves with products to heighten their game, but it shouldn't damage the legacy they had before they were juiced.

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The corner bends into the perfect dog ear
As if the words knew I'd need them again
But at the time, I didn't see it."

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I've been of the opinion it's been the sport itself's fault for ignoring the problem for all these years. But since it's such a big deal now, my stance is simple.

No Hall of Fame for any player who can be proved to use steriods, suspension from the sport, but any records they have made do not get revoked.

It's quite simple. It doesn't matter how many players have done it, it's still cheating and no known cheater deserves to be in the Hall of Fame no matter how good they are. It's a matter of principles. As far as the records go, those are simply numbers and it's far too complicated to say oh your home runs don't count because you did X and Y. The fact of the matter is the Home Runs did happen, the numbers still exist, but the player does not deserve the honor of being a Hall of Famer.

That honor is reserved for players who are true to the sport and play the game as it's meant to be played despite the pressures to do otherwise.

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I still haven't made up my mind. I hate Bonds, I hate McGuire. McGuire should definitely not be in. Bonds...yes he did have great numbers before the roids, but Hall of Fame numbers? Maybe eventually..but come on now. Try and think about Bonds popularity before 2001. It was there, but he was NOT a face of the game. He was also NOT a guy people would consider a "Hall of Famer" when you heard his name. I know I didn't. I remember Bonds when he was young and skinny, and then I remember all of a sudden seeing him look like he was Frank Thomas in a Giants uniform. Then he hits all those home runs, and suddenly he's the best player in the history of the game.

He was good, great even. The steriods did not make him a great player. He already was outstanding, then add in the roids and BAM! He transcends the game. Unfair advantage.

Neither of them.

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And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

Amen.

I'm a diehard A's fan, even dressed up as Jose Canseco for Halloween like three years running when I was a kid, so it pains me to see all this happen to McGwire. BUT, the McGwire I knew as an A is not the McGwire I knew as a Cardinal. Sure, he was a masher as a rookie, but he was still pretty wiry, just like Bonds as a Pirate.

Am I supposed to believe these guys were bigger and stronger with larger diameter biceps in their late 30s? Bigger than they've even been in their careers? The human body doesn't develop that way. And as a stat freak I can say that stats don't develop that way either:

Bonds HRs, 1997-2004:
40 37 34 49 73 46 45 45
49 being his previous career high, then right back down? Way outside any statistical or logical explanation, AND people were pitching around him to begin with, way around him by midseason (177 walks)

Anyway, it's hard not to believe they cheated. McGwire admitted to taking Andro which is now illegal in the MLB, and Bonds hasn't sufficiently answered the Balco charges. And then you have Sosa and the corked bat. Sorry, it only takes one time to lose all the trust you've built up over a career.

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In my opinion, keep the stats, no asterisk, but qualify it with a "Juiced Era" or something moniker. Just like the Deadball Era in the 30s or so when offenses plummeted and batting stats were terrible (comparatively). If we only asterisk the known guys, then other unknown cheaters' records look great also when it's their time in the discussion. As for the Hall of Fame, if they are found to have actually used roids, no way in hell, regardless of what they did before.

Makes you really cheer for the "good guys" who've played it clean all these years and deserve to get in: Griffey, Frank Thomas, etc. The Hall is a place to honor the game's true greats, not its great cheats.

This post has been edited by imperialstooge on 30th March 2005 05:46

Until there's hard evidence to prove they used steroids, I vote yes. Do I think they used steroids? Of course. But you can't prove it right now, and until you can, I think it's unfair to leave them out of the hall of fame. There are plenty of people in the hall of fame with questional credentials both on the field and off, and sadly, many players, coaches, and executives still live by the motto "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying." I don't think this excuses anyone from doing steriods, but I don't think you can leave these two out based on circumstantial evidence alone. (And I want a more credible eyewitness than Canseco before I condemn anyone.)

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